Re: SWTPC 6800

[Brad H]

Thanks!  I'm definitely enjoying my trips back to 1976.  My house is early 70s 
and in the basement with an old table and the terminal, computer and monitor 
I'm pretty much in 1976.  I really am hoping to learn how to program using the 
monitor... still don't completely understand how adding two digits to memory 
addresses makes it do something.
I'll probably leave the machine be.. it's a bit fragile.  Might be fun to get 
the disk card working and get a working drive for it.. although I have no 
software on disk.
Re: EPROM programming.. wish I could do that with my MSI 6800.. and get it back 
to stock config.  The homemade monitor it has is useless!

Sent from my Samsung device

 Original message 
From: Brent Hilpert  
Date: 2016-08-12  9:39 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 

On 2016-Aug-12, at 7:39 PM, Brad H wrote:
> There's no way to have both the MP-C and MP-S cards in the same machine and
> have the computer connected to one at a faster rate of speed is there?

As far the hardware goes, yes, you can have both cards in there operating at 
different speeds.

Your problem is getting SWTBUG to use the alternative serial card (port) for 
the loader command, rather than the console port.
To my recollection it (SWTBUG) is not programmed to provide for that.
 I have a vague recollection of some monitor that allowed one to redirect the 
I/O port for the subsequent command or something like that
 but it was probably for some other machine (don't have the command list for 
SWTBUG at hand).

So you could modify SWTBUG (typically with hand-assembled patches) and add a 
new facility and
burn a new EPROM to give you a monitor tailored for your system config.

Welcome to the world of hobbyist computing, 1976.

RE: SWTPC 6800

[Brad H]

Okay so I gave it a try.  As it turned out, I had a serial cable that had
both DB-25 and DB-9 heads at both ends.  So I thought I'd try using the
prolific USB to serial adapter I had here with my modern laptop so I could
easily download text files and run them. 

Yeah no.

The prolific cable allows you to set speeds as low as 110 but it does not
like them.  At 110 you just get garbage.  At 300, a prompt, but then
garbage.

There's no way to have both the MP-C and MP-S cards in the same machine and
have the computer connected to one at a faster rate of speed is there?

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris
Elmquist
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 4:01 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800

On Friday (08/12/2016 at 07:33AM -0700), Brad H wrote:
> 
> 
> I've a question.  I've now got my CT1024 working properly with my 6800..
is there an easy way to load txt loader files into it while it is still
connected to the CT?  Or do I have to load something in via PC first and
then swap cables?

The "usual" method in the day was that the paper tape reader on the
M33 teletype connected to the 6800 as the console was used to load your
s-records in through MIKBUG.  When you started the tape reader, it was just
like you were typing it on the TTY's keyboad.

Later, a cassette interface such as SWTPC AC-30 or the PERCOM CIS-30 was
used and it sat between the terminal's RS232 interface and the SWTPC's
console interface.   When you were loading a tape, the terminal got
disconnected (electrically) and the data coming off the tape was sent to the
console input of the 6800.

So, in simple terms, the cassette interface was in series with the terminal
and could preempt the terminal when loading from tape.  To save to tape, the
output from the 6800 would essentially go to both the tape and the terminal
at the same time.

The modern equivalent is probably an RS232 A/B switch that either connects
your CT-1024 or a PC to the 6800's console.  When you want to "load a tape"
you flip the switch so that the PC connects to the 6800 and sends the
s-records in.  After the load is complete, you flip the switch back and the
CT-1024 becomes the console.

You could also diode-OR the transmit data from the CT-1024 and a PC to the
6800's receive data input and wire the transmit data from the 6800's output
to both the CT-1024 and the PC but this might be sketchy depending
on the PC's RS232 interface characteristics.But I have done this
successfully with other RS232 interfaces where I wanted two devices to be
able to send to one receiver without having to physically disconnect or flip
a switch.

Chris

>  Original message 
> From: Pontus Pihlgren 
> Date: 2016-08-11  11:27 PM  (GMT-08:00)
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> 
> Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800
> 
> Very interresting read, thank you Ethan.
> 
> /P
> 
> On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist  wrote:
> > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +), tony duell wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems?
> > >
> > > No.  ;-)
> > 
> > No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep 
> > knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in 
> > particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago.  I 
> > get why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my 
> > experiences as "typical".
> > 
> > I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic 
> > light".  I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple
> > DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff.  *Mostly*, if you plug everything 
> > in and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have 
> > figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop 
> > adding null-modem adapters.  Past that, you have to know if either 
> > end requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals 
> > (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the 
> > appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides 
> > _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking.  If you defeat it, you might 
> > run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to 
> > establish basic comms and pass a few characters.  To that end, you 
> > do have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to 
> > start is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits.  I've run into 
> > multiple situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer.  With 
> > enough experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on 
> > an often recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out 
> > what the speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a 
> > serial analyzer or an oscilloscope, one can try 

RE: SWTPC 6800

[Brad H]

Many thanks Mike!

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stein
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 6:45 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800

I'm still looking for my AC-30; as soon as I find it it's yours. See ya 
off-list...

m

- Original Message - 
From: "Brad H" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800


>
>
> Interesting. I thought the CT-1024 was sort of the intended companion for the 
> 6800 (It came out first, I think). I wonder what they expected people to do 
> if they had just those two devices?
> I'll probably try cable swap and see how onerous that is. I'm hoping to one 
> day acquire an AC-30.. of course then I'd need to find tape files...
> Do you know of any good repository for the kind of loader files you can load 
> via serial? I've found a few here and there but not all of them. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Samsung device
> 
>  Original message 
> From: Chris Elmquist  
> Date: 2016-08-12  4:01 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
>  
> Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 
> 
> On Friday (08/12/2016 at 07:33AM -0700), Brad H wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I've a question. I've now got my CT1024 working properly with my 6800.. is 
>> there an easy way to load txt loader files into it while it is still 
>> connected to the CT? Or do I have to load something in via PC first and then 
>> swap cables?
> 
> The "usual" method in the day was that the paper tape reader on the
> M33 teletype connected to the 6800 as the console was used to load your
> s-records in through MIKBUG. When you started the tape reader, it was
> just like you were typing it on the TTY's keyboad.
> 
> Later, a cassette interface such as SWTPC AC-30 or the PERCOM CIS-30 was
> used and it sat between the terminal's RS232 interface and the SWTPC's
> console interface. When you were loading a tape, the terminal got
> disconnected (electrically) and the data coming off the tape was sent
> to the console input of the 6800.
> 
> So, in simple terms, the cassette interface was in series with the
> terminal and could preempt the terminal when loading from tape. To save
> to tape, the output from the 6800 would essentially go to both the tape
> and the terminal at the same time.
> 
> The modern equivalent is probably an RS232 A/B switch that either
> connects your CT-1024 or a PC to the 6800's console. When you want to
> "load a tape" you flip the switch so that the PC connects to the 6800
> and sends the s-records in. After the load is complete, you flip the
> switch back and the CT-1024 becomes the console.
> 
> You could also diode-OR the transmit data from the CT-1024 and a PC to
> the 6800's receive data input and wire the transmit data from the 6800's
> output to both the CT-1024 and the PC but this might be sketchy depending
> on the PC's RS232 interface characteristics. But I have done this
> successfully with other RS232 interfaces where I wanted two devices to
> be able to send to one receiver without having to physically disconnect
> or flip a switch.
> 
> Chris
> 
>>  Original message 
>> From: Pontus Pihlgren  
>> Date: 2016-08-11 11:27 PM (GMT-08:00) 
>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
>>  
>> Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 
>> 
>> Very interresting read, thank you Ethan.
>> 
>> /P
>> 
>> On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist  wrote:
>> > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +), tony duell wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems?
>> > >
>> > > No. ;-)
>> > 
>> > No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep
>> > knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in
>> > particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago. I get
>> > why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my
>> > experiences as "typical".
>> > 
>> > I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic
>> > light". I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple
>> > DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff. *Mostly*, if you plug everything in
>> > and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have
>> > figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop
>> > adding null-modem adapters. Past that, you have to know if either end
>> > requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals
>> > (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the
>> > appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides
>> > _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking. If you defeat it, you might
>> > 

Re: Atlanta Open House Tomorrow

[Ken Seefried]

I'd be more than happy to look for what people want, but an address,
start time and required payment type would help.

Re: SWTPC 6800

[Mike Stein]

I'm still looking for my AC-30; as soon as I find it it's yours. See ya 
off-list...

m

- Original Message - 
From: "Brad H" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800


>
>
> Interesting. I thought the CT-1024 was sort of the intended companion for the 
> 6800 (It came out first, I think). I wonder what they expected people to do 
> if they had just those two devices?
> I'll probably try cable swap and see how onerous that is. I'm hoping to one 
> day acquire an AC-30.. of course then I'd need to find tape files...
> Do you know of any good repository for the kind of loader files you can load 
> via serial? I've found a few here and there but not all of them. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Samsung device
> 
>  Original message 
> From: Chris Elmquist  
> Date: 2016-08-12  4:01 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
>  
> Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 
> 
> On Friday (08/12/2016 at 07:33AM -0700), Brad H wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I've a question. I've now got my CT1024 working properly with my 6800.. is 
>> there an easy way to load txt loader files into it while it is still 
>> connected to the CT? Or do I have to load something in via PC first and then 
>> swap cables?
> 
> The "usual" method in the day was that the paper tape reader on the
> M33 teletype connected to the 6800 as the console was used to load your
> s-records in through MIKBUG. When you started the tape reader, it was
> just like you were typing it on the TTY's keyboad.
> 
> Later, a cassette interface such as SWTPC AC-30 or the PERCOM CIS-30 was
> used and it sat between the terminal's RS232 interface and the SWTPC's
> console interface. When you were loading a tape, the terminal got
> disconnected (electrically) and the data coming off the tape was sent
> to the console input of the 6800.
> 
> So, in simple terms, the cassette interface was in series with the
> terminal and could preempt the terminal when loading from tape. To save
> to tape, the output from the 6800 would essentially go to both the tape
> and the terminal at the same time.
> 
> The modern equivalent is probably an RS232 A/B switch that either
> connects your CT-1024 or a PC to the 6800's console. When you want to
> "load a tape" you flip the switch so that the PC connects to the 6800
> and sends the s-records in. After the load is complete, you flip the
> switch back and the CT-1024 becomes the console.
> 
> You could also diode-OR the transmit data from the CT-1024 and a PC to
> the 6800's receive data input and wire the transmit data from the 6800's
> output to both the CT-1024 and the PC but this might be sketchy depending
> on the PC's RS232 interface characteristics. But I have done this
> successfully with other RS232 interfaces where I wanted two devices to
> be able to send to one receiver without having to physically disconnect
> or flip a switch.
> 
> Chris
> 
>>  Original message 
>> From: Pontus Pihlgren  
>> Date: 2016-08-11 11:27 PM (GMT-08:00) 
>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
>>  
>> Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 
>> 
>> Very interresting read, thank you Ethan.
>> 
>> /P
>> 
>> On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist  wrote:
>> > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +), tony duell wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems?
>> > >
>> > > No. ;-)
>> > 
>> > No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep
>> > knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in
>> > particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago. I get
>> > why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my
>> > experiences as "typical".
>> > 
>> > I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic
>> > light". I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple
>> > DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff. *Mostly*, if you plug everything in
>> > and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have
>> > figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop
>> > adding null-modem adapters. Past that, you have to know if either end
>> > requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals
>> > (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the
>> > appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides
>> > _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking. If you defeat it, you might
>> > run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to
>> > establish basic comms and pass a few characters. To that end, you do
>> > have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to start
>> > is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop 

Re: SWTPC 6800

[Brad H]

Interesting.  I thought the CT-1024 was sort of the intended companion for the 
6800 (It came out first, I think).  I wonder what they expected people to do if 
they had just those two devices?
I'll probably try cable swap and see how onerous that is.  I'm hoping to one 
day acquire an AC-30.. of course then I'd need to find tape files...
Do you know of any good repository for the kind of loader files you can load 
via serial?  I've found a few here and there but not all of them. 


Sent from my Samsung device

 Original message 
From: Chris Elmquist  
Date: 2016-08-12  4:01 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 

On Friday (08/12/2016 at 07:33AM -0700), Brad H wrote:
> 
> 
> I've a question.  I've now got my CT1024 working properly with my 6800.. is 
> there an easy way to load txt loader files into it while it is still 
> connected to the CT?  Or do I have to load something in via PC first and then 
> swap cables?

The "usual" method in the day was that the paper tape reader on the
M33 teletype connected to the 6800 as the console was used to load your
s-records in through MIKBUG.  When you started the tape reader, it was
just like you were typing it on the TTY's keyboad.

Later, a cassette interface such as SWTPC AC-30 or the PERCOM CIS-30 was
used and it sat between the terminal's RS232 interface and the SWTPC's
console interface.   When you were loading a tape, the terminal got
disconnected (electrically) and the data coming off the tape was sent
to the console input of the 6800.

So, in simple terms, the cassette interface was in series with the
terminal and could preempt the terminal when loading from tape.  To save
to tape, the output from the 6800 would essentially go to both the tape
and the terminal at the same time.

The modern equivalent is probably an RS232 A/B switch that either
connects your CT-1024 or a PC to the 6800's console.  When you want to
"load a tape" you flip the switch so that the PC connects to the 6800
and sends the s-records in.  After the load is complete, you flip the
switch back and the CT-1024 becomes the console.

You could also diode-OR the transmit data from the CT-1024 and a PC to
the 6800's receive data input and wire the transmit data from the 6800's
output to both the CT-1024 and the PC but this might be sketchy depending
on the PC's RS232 interface characteristics.    But I have done this
successfully with other RS232 interfaces where I wanted two devices to
be able to send to one receiver without having to physically disconnect
or flip a switch.

Chris

>  Original message 
> From: Pontus Pihlgren  
> Date: 2016-08-11  11:27 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
>  
> Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 
> 
> Very interresting read, thank you Ethan.
> 
> /P
> 
> On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist  wrote:
> > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +), tony duell wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems?
> > >
> > > No.  ;-)
> > 
> > No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep
> > knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in
> > particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago.  I get
> > why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my
> > experiences as "typical".
> > 
> > I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic
> > light".  I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple
> > DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff.  *Mostly*, if you plug everything in
> > and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have
> > figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop
> > adding null-modem adapters.  Past that, you have to know if either end
> > requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals
> > (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the
> > appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides
> > _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking.  If you defeat it, you might
> > run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to
> > establish basic comms and pass a few characters.  To that end, you do
> > have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to start
> > is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits.  I've run into multiple
> > situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer.  With enough
> > experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on an often
> > recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out what the
> > speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a serial analyzer
> > or an oscilloscope, one can try "all the speeds" until cleartext comes
> > through.  I also try the speeds in "most 

Re: HP to acquire SGI

[Chris Elmquist]

On Friday (08/12/2016 at 09:33AM -0700), Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 08/12/2016 06:17 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote:
> 
> > SGI was already destroyed decades ago.  With more vision, they could
> > have transitioned the business into becoming an Nvidia instead of a
> > faceless rack server company.
> 
> But that's really what SGI is/was today--the former Rackable Systems who
> inherited the name after purchasing the Chapter 11 remains of SGI back
> in 2009, except for some tidbits held by a mystery group called
> "Graphics Properties Holdings, Inc.", which is probably the name of some
> file in a lawyer's office in New Rochelle.  GPH is mostly known for
> using old SGI patents to go after the likes of Samsung, Google and Amazon.
> 
> In the 1990s, SGI always seemed to me to be more of a hedge fund
> operations, acquiring and then relinquishing MIPS and Cray, picking up
> Intergraph and Wavefront.  I suspect that releasing MIPS and Cray via
> IPOs was a way to raise capital.
> 
> Whatever, the original company and mindset is long gone.  No use crying
> over spilt milk.

There are some SGI people here in MN that figure, from a severance
standpoint, getting laid off from HP is probably better than getting
laid off from SGI.  So, you know, they have new found optimism.

-- 
Chris Elmquist

Re: SWTPC 6800

[Chris Elmquist]

On Friday (08/12/2016 at 07:33AM -0700), Brad H wrote:
> 
> 
> I've a question.  I've now got my CT1024 working properly with my 6800.. is 
> there an easy way to load txt loader files into it while it is still 
> connected to the CT?  Or do I have to load something in via PC first and then 
> swap cables?

The "usual" method in the day was that the paper tape reader on the
M33 teletype connected to the 6800 as the console was used to load your
s-records in through MIKBUG.  When you started the tape reader, it was
just like you were typing it on the TTY's keyboad.

Later, a cassette interface such as SWTPC AC-30 or the PERCOM CIS-30 was
used and it sat between the terminal's RS232 interface and the SWTPC's
console interface.   When you were loading a tape, the terminal got
disconnected (electrically) and the data coming off the tape was sent
to the console input of the 6800.

So, in simple terms, the cassette interface was in series with the
terminal and could preempt the terminal when loading from tape.  To save
to tape, the output from the 6800 would essentially go to both the tape
and the terminal at the same time.

The modern equivalent is probably an RS232 A/B switch that either
connects your CT-1024 or a PC to the 6800's console.  When you want to
"load a tape" you flip the switch so that the PC connects to the 6800
and sends the s-records in.  After the load is complete, you flip the
switch back and the CT-1024 becomes the console.

You could also diode-OR the transmit data from the CT-1024 and a PC to
the 6800's receive data input and wire the transmit data from the 6800's
output to both the CT-1024 and the PC but this might be sketchy depending
on the PC's RS232 interface characteristics.But I have done this
successfully with other RS232 interfaces where I wanted two devices to
be able to send to one receiver without having to physically disconnect
or flip a switch.

Chris

>  Original message 
> From: Pontus Pihlgren  
> Date: 2016-08-11  11:27 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
>  
> Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 
> 
> Very interresting read, thank you Ethan.
> 
> /P
> 
> On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist  wrote:
> > > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +), tony duell wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems?
> > >
> > > No.  ;-)
> > 
> > No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep
> > knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in
> > particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago.  I get
> > why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my
> > experiences as "typical".
> > 
> > I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic
> > light".  I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple
> > DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff.  *Mostly*, if you plug everything in
> > and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have
> > figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop
> > adding null-modem adapters.  Past that, you have to know if either end
> > requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals
> > (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the
> > appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides
> > _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking.  If you defeat it, you might
> > run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to
> > establish basic comms and pass a few characters.  To that end, you do
> > have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to start
> > is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits.  I've run into multiple
> > situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer.  With enough
> > experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on an often
> > recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out what the
> > speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a serial analyzer
> > or an oscilloscope, one can try "all the speeds" until cleartext comes
> > through.  I also try the speeds in "most popular order", 9600, 1200,
> > 300, 2400, 4800, 19200, 600... in the hopes of saving time.  Every
> > once in a while, you run into some oddball stuff, like 9600/150, etc.,
> > split speeds from the days of timesharing setups where the CPU wanted
> > to get data to the users as fast as possible but wanted to minimize
> > input interrupts and more closely match the input flow to (slow) human
> > typing speeds.  This wasn't common with microcomputers, but I've seen
> > it with PDP-11 and PDP-8 setups and isn't something to look for first,
> > but it does exist and highlights how strange things can get if all
> > you've ever done is plug a high speed modem into a PC for dial-up
> > internet.
> > 
> > One important tip about USB serial 

Re: For trade: beautiful Data General Nova 820 w/ Diablo Drive & controller

[devin davison]

Whoops. mailed the whole list
sorry.


On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 1:02 PM, devin davison  wrote:

> I am interested in the data general nova 820. I have a pdp 11, i have been
> looking to get into the data general machines for a while now. I have many
> sgi machines around here. Sgi crimson, tezro, many octanes, octane 2's  ,
> indigo, indy indigo, etc. tons of related software for the sgi machines
> too. mostly around 3d modeling or video work, as to be expected.
>
> Would any of those be of interest to you for trade. I would prefer not to
> part with the crimson.
> If to be sold for a cash value, what is your asking price?
>
>
> --Devin
>
> On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Ian Finder  wrote:
>
>> I picked this early DG machine up and although it's awesome and complete,
>> I
>> just don't think I'll get to restoring it.
>>
>> I'd like to trade for anything Symbolics, or potentially other very early
>> graphical workstation hardware (PERQ, 68K SGI, etc.)
>>
>> Located in Seattle, but I am no stranger to freight.
>>
>> This is an early DG jumbo chassis with everything you need, tons of core,
>> and the removable pack drive.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> - Ian
>>
>>
>> --
>>Ian Finder
>>(206) 395-MIPS
>>ian.fin...@gmail.com
>>
>
>

Halt and Catch Fire season about to start on TV!

[COURYHOUSE]

Halt and Catch Fire  season about to start on TV!
Ed#
 
http://www.amc.com/shows/halt-and-catch-fire?utm_source=newsletter_mediu
m=email_content=7-halt-home_campaign=AMC-Weekly

Re: HP to acquire SGI

[Jules Richardson]

On 08/12/2016 11:33 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

Whatever, the original company and mindset is long gone.  No use crying
over spilt milk.


Company, mindset, and the industry in which it operated, to be honest. I 
don't think I could get particularly excited about putting a SGI-branded 
graphics card in my PC, no matter how good it might be.


Jules

Re: Tape imaging

[Al Kossow]

On 8/12/16 10:14 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> On 2016-08-12 10:27, Al Kossow wrote:
>> physical is a .1 grid of square pins coming off of a flex cable to the head 
>> stack.
>> electrical is you supply a bias current and directly read magnetic flux with 
>> an opamp
> OK,
>> I traced all of that out the last time I made a run at this windmill. John 
>> used an FPGA
>> development board with an 18 channel A/D, which also controlled modified 
>> firmware on the motor driver
>> and digitizes the tach pulse to get actual tape speed.
> 
> 18/36 channels? Which sample rate? Resolution?
> 

had to dig up my notes from 2013

the drive I have is 18 track (3480 head) with 18 NE5592D differential amps
the A/D is a AD7322 2 channel 12 bit 1msample
I have no idea what the actual sample rate used is
and I can't really tell from the picture in the presentation


>> MANY years ago, I bought a dozen 3480s in Chicago and stripped them for the 
>> heads at my parent's
>> farm in Wisconsin, so I could try grafting one onto another transport if I 
>> had to. I've been unsuccessfully
>> trying for years to get the schematics for a 9914 or 9914V (they aren't 
>> inlcuded in the service manual).
> 
> So, going for the 36 track heads too?

I would be happy just to get this one running. I'm not too keen on digging for 
more head stacks right now.

Re: Tape Imaging

[Al Kossow]

On 8/12/16 12:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> But what drive was used to write
> this (DEC) tape is a mystery.
> 

DEC didn't sell a whole lot of different 1600/6250 drives.
TU78 was probably the most common.

and.. as I was writing this I remembered that it was possible to switch
densities on that drive mid-tape. I accidentally created a tar tape with
two different densities on it. I only tried reading it long after that
system was scrapped and found I couldn't.

Re: Tape Imaging

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/12/2016 11:19 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> I think some drives can handle mid-tape density changes.  It may even
> have been done by DEC, though I may be confusing that with the odd
> case of RSTS distribution tapes which started out with a DOS-11 label
> and then switched to ANSI labels.

Sure, especially the older ones. (Doing it on the 60x/65x CDC drives was
mostly a matter of pushing a button).   But what drive was used to write
this (DEC) tape is a mystery.

--Chuck

Re: Tape Imaging

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 12, 2016, at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> On 08/11/2016 10:50 PM, jim stephens wrote:
> 
>> That sounds like someone just set a Cipher 990 or such to 6240 GCR
>> and overwrote it.  The 1600bpi was residue which was previous tape
>> contents?
> 
> No, that's the odd thing--both files (tar) were complete from beginning
> to end.  The first was a smaller version of the second, but otherwise
> complete.  We'll never know how the thing got that way.

I think some drives can handle mid-tape density changes.  It may even have been 
done by DEC, though I may be confusing that with the odd case of RSTS 
distribution tapes which started out with a DOS-11 label and then switched to 
ANSI labels.

paul

Re: Tape Imaging

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/11/2016 10:50 PM, jim stephens wrote:

> That sounds like someone just set a Cipher 990 or such to 6240 GCR
> and overwrote it.  The 1600bpi was residue which was previous tape
> contents?

No, that's the odd thing--both files (tar) were complete from beginning
to end.  The first was a smaller version of the second, but otherwise
complete.  We'll never know how the thing got that way.

--Chuck

Re: Tape imaging

[emanuel stiebler]

On 2016-08-12 10:27, Al Kossow wrote:

physical is a .1 grid of square pins coming off of a flex cable to the head 
stack.
electrical is you supply a bias current and directly read magnetic flux with an 
opamp

OK,

I traced all of that out the last time I made a run at this windmill. John used 
an FPGA
development board with an 18 channel A/D, which also controlled modified 
firmware on the motor driver
and digitizes the tach pulse to get actual tape speed.


18/36 channels? Which sample rate? Resolution?


Unfortunately, he never sent me the FPGA code, so I have to come up with my own 
digitizer and figure
out how to drive the transport. Fortunately, it's a 9914V (vertical mount), so 
it isn't auto-loading.
I did get a tape to move to loadpoint from the front panel, so the mods might 
not be too bad. He did
send me a disassembly of the microcontroller code with the patches he made.

Reading this presentation, I think he switched to 3490 36 track heads at some 
point.


makes sense, even as you double the amount of data ...


http://storageconference.us/2008/presentations/3.Wednesday/5.Bordynuik.pdf





MANY years ago, I bought a dozen 3480s in Chicago and stripped them for the 
heads at my parent's
farm in Wisconsin, so I could try grafting one onto another transport if I had 
to. I've been unsuccessfully
trying for years to get the schematics for a 9914 or 9914V (they aren't 
inlcuded in the service manual).


So, going for the 36 track heads too?

Re: For trade: beautiful Data General Nova 820 w/ Diablo Drive & controller

[devin davison]

I am interested in the data general nova 820. I have a pdp 11, i have been
looking to get into the data general machines for a while now. I have many
sgi machines around here. Sgi crimson, tezro, many octanes, octane 2's  ,
indigo, indy indigo, etc. tons of related software for the sgi machines
too. mostly around 3d modeling or video work, as to be expected.

Would any of those be of interest to you for trade. I would prefer not to
part with the crimson.
If to be sold for a cash value, what is your asking price?


--Devin

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Ian Finder  wrote:

> I picked this early DG machine up and although it's awesome and complete, I
> just don't think I'll get to restoring it.
>
> I'd like to trade for anything Symbolics, or potentially other very early
> graphical workstation hardware (PERQ, 68K SGI, etc.)
>
> Located in Seattle, but I am no stranger to freight.
>
> This is an early DG jumbo chassis with everything you need, tons of core,
> and the removable pack drive.
>
> Cheers,
>
> - Ian
>
>
> --
>Ian Finder
>(206) 395-MIPS
>ian.fin...@gmail.com
>

Re: R: HP to acquire SGI

[geneb]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, geneb wrote:


On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, Fred Cisin wrote:



If HP and Microsoft merged, would it put an end to computers?


No, but it might create a Black Hole of Fail that would evour the planet.


*sigh*

s/evour/devour
:wq

g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

For trade: beautiful Data General Nova 820 w/ Diablo Drive & controller

[Ian Finder]

I picked this early DG machine up and although it's awesome and complete, I
just don't think I'll get to restoring it.

I'd like to trade for anything Symbolics, or potentially other very early
graphical workstation hardware (PERQ, 68K SGI, etc.)

Located in Seattle, but I am no stranger to freight.

This is an early DG jumbo chassis with everything you need, tons of core,
and the removable pack drive.

Cheers,

- Ian


-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: R: HP to acquire SGI

[geneb]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, Fred Cisin wrote:



If HP and Microsoft merged, would it put an end to computers?


No, but it might create a Black Hole of Fail that would evour the planet.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: HP to acquire SGI

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/12/2016 06:17 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote:

> SGI was already destroyed decades ago.  With more vision, they could
> have transitioned the business into becoming an Nvidia instead of a
> faceless rack server company.

But that's really what SGI is/was today--the former Rackable Systems who
inherited the name after purchasing the Chapter 11 remains of SGI back
in 2009, except for some tidbits held by a mystery group called
"Graphics Properties Holdings, Inc.", which is probably the name of some
file in a lawyer's office in New Rochelle.  GPH is mostly known for
using old SGI patents to go after the likes of Samsung, Google and Amazon.

In the 1990s, SGI always seemed to me to be more of a hedge fund
operations, acquiring and then relinquishing MIPS and Cray, picking up
Intergraph and Wavefront.  I suspect that releasing MIPS and Cray via
IPOs was a way to raise capital.

Whatever, the original company and mindset is long gone.  No use crying
over spilt milk.

--Chuck

Re: Tape imaging

[Al Kossow]

physical is a .1 grid of square pins coming off of a flex cable to the head 
stack.

electrical is you supply a bias current and directly read magnetic flux with an 
opamp

I traced all of that out the last time I made a run at this windmill. John used 
an FPGA
development board with an 18 channel A/D, which also controlled modified 
firmware on the motor driver
and digitizes the tach pulse to get actual tape speed.

Unfortunately, he never sent me the FPGA code, so I have to come up with my own 
digitizer and figure
out how to drive the transport. Fortunately, it's a 9914V (vertical mount), so 
it isn't auto-loading.
I did get a tape to move to loadpoint from the front panel, so the mods might 
not be too bad. He did
send me a disassembly of the microcontroller code with the patches he made.

Reading this presentation, I think he switched to 3490 36 track heads at some 
point.

http://storageconference.us/2008/presentations/3.Wednesday/5.Bordynuik.pdf

MANY years ago, I bought a dozen 3480s in Chicago and stripped them for the 
heads at my parent's
farm in Wisconsin, so I could try grafting one onto another transport if I had 
to. I've been unsuccessfully
trying for years to get the schematics for a 9914 or 9914V (they aren't 
inlcuded in the service manual).


On 8/12/16 12:29 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> On 2016-08-11 20:36, Al Kossow wrote:
>> One of the highest projects I have in the queue is getting one of John's
>> M4 9914V drives with 18 track MR heads running in my new lab at CHM.
> 
> What's the interface on the 18 track head?
> 

Re: the value of old test and repair equipment

[Joseph Zatarski]

>> Something I forgot to note was that this instrument (the 4261A) was
>> actually manufactured for HP by Yokogawa, I'm not too sure where the
>> HP part ends and the Yokogawa begins, maybe it was designed by HP and
>> built by Yokogawa, or maybe the whole thing was a contracted design
>> for HP by Yokogawa.
>
>Yokogawa is not on the list of HP acquisitions.

Well, hardly an acquisition if they (partially) owned it from the start.
http://www.hpmuseum.net/divisions.php?did=39

YEW is still around today, my dad has purchased scopes for the lab at work
from them. YHP is separate from YEW, I guess.

Re: HP to acquire SGI

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 12, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Fred Cisin  wrote:
> 
> ...
> I remember when HP was innovative, and made great test equipment.

They still do, but that part hasn't been called HP for a long time.  I figured 
when HP split into a test equipment company and an ink company, the outcome was 
obvious.  I think the ink company is still doing reasonably well (for a 
commodity business); the rest is not so happy.

paul

Re: HP to acquire SGI

[Fred Cisin]

If HP and Microsoft merged, would it put an end to computers?


On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, Paul Koning wrote:

No, but it might put an end to the resulting company.


Would that stop it from pushing Windoze10 "upgrade"?

Note that HP didn't acquire DEC, or Palm; both had been absorbed by 
other companies well before HP swooped in to grab those.  For example, I 
don't think anything was left of Palm long before HP bought up the 
remnants of 3Com.


It's easier to buy up the wreckage afterwards.

If Adam Osborne had listened to my suggestion and bought the residue of 
Visicalc, then Lotus could not have laid a hand on him.

(the real reason why Novell bought Digital Research)


I remember when HP was innovative, and made great test equipment.
In those days, even Microsoft made good stuff.

Re: HP to acquire SGI

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 12, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Fred Cisin  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, Mazzini Alessandro wrote:
>> It was not enough to have mishandled vms, and killed palm. Now they want to 
>> destroy also what's left of SGI ?
>> Better I don't say what I'm really thinking...
> 
> "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for men of good conscience to remain 
> silent."
> 
> 
> Apollo, DEC, Compaq, Ericsson, Palm, . . . 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Hewlett-Packard
> 
> 
> If HP and Microsoft merged, would it put an end to computers?

No, but it might put an end to the resulting company.

Note that HP didn't acquire DEC, or Palm; both had been absorbed by other 
companies well before HP swooped in to grab those.  For example, I don't think 
anything was left of Palm long before HP bought up the remnants of 3Com.

paul

Re: the value of old test and repair equipment

[Fred Cisin]

Something I forgot to note was that this instrument (the 4261A) was
actually manufactured for HP by Yokogawa, I'm not too sure where the
HP part ends and the Yokogawa begins, maybe it was designed by HP and
built by Yokogawa, or maybe the whole thing was a contracted design
for HP by Yokogawa.


Yokogawa is not on the list of HP acquisitions.

Re: R: HP to acquire SGI

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016, Mazzini Alessandro wrote:
It was not enough to have mishandled vms, and killed palm. Now they want 
to destroy also what's left of SGI ?

Better I don't say what I'm really thinking...


"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for men of good conscience to 
remain silent."



Apollo, DEC, Compaq, Ericsson, Palm, . . . 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Hewlett-Packard



If HP and Microsoft merged, would it put an end to computers?

Re: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825

[Paul Berger]

The cable will come with the GPIO, the one you want is the 98032A option 
085, but if you cannot find one of them any 98032A could be reconfigured 
to support  a 9885. Diskettes are going to be a bigger issue, as per 
hpmuseum.net you will need a 9895 to be able to transfer their image to 
a physical diskette.


Paul.



On 2016-08-12 5:30 AM, curiousma...@gmail.com wrote:

I got the HP 9885 single sided disk unit that was at Weird Stuff, thanks for the 
heads up! Now I just need a parallel interface for the 9825, a cable, the right 
8" diskettes, and get my HP-IB 9895 to work... That's a lot of stars to align 
but that should be fun to try.
Marc


On Jul 24, 2016, at 3:30 AM, David Collins  wrote:

Guys, I've looked for a 98228A ROM in the HP Computer Museum but haven't
been able to find one - but it looks like we've had one at some stage
judging by the photo.

If I come across it I'll come back to you.

David Collins
Curator


-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of CuriousMarc
Sent: Saturday, 23 July 2016 5:40 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'

Subject: RE: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825

Thanks, I didn't know, I grabbed the image. That offers a path if I can ever
get an 9885 and single sides 8" discs...
Marc


-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
Berger On the hpmuseum.net page for the 98217A ROM here is an image of
what is reputed to be an initialized diskette for use with 9825 and
98217A http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=166. When I get my
9825T I will look into 9885 emulation, I don't think it will be too

difficult but

you may still need a GPIO unless I build the whole thing onto a
plug-in card I don't think the GPIO would be too difficult to clone.
But ideally I would still like to get access to a 98228A ROM to dump
and

clone

it, even though it is bank switched it should still be possible.

Paul.

Re: SWTPC 6800

[Brad H]

I've a question.  I've now got my CT1024 working properly with my 6800.. is 
there an easy way to load txt loader files into it while it is still connected 
to the CT?  Or do I have to load something in via PC first and then swap cables?


Sent from my Samsung device

 Original message 
From: Pontus Pihlgren  
Date: 2016-08-11  11:27 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 

Very interresting read, thank you Ethan.

/P

On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist  wrote:
> > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +), tony duell wrote:
> >>
> >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems?
> >
> > No.  ;-)
> 
> No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep
> knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in
> particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago.  I get
> why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my
> experiences as "typical".
> 
> I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic
> light".  I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple
> DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff.  *Mostly*, if you plug everything in
> and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have
> figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop
> adding null-modem adapters.  Past that, you have to know if either end
> requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals
> (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the
> appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides
> _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking.  If you defeat it, you might
> run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to
> establish basic comms and pass a few characters.  To that end, you do
> have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to start
> is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits.  I've run into multiple
> situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer.  With enough
> experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on an often
> recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out what the
> speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a serial analyzer
> or an oscilloscope, one can try "all the speeds" until cleartext comes
> through.  I also try the speeds in "most popular order", 9600, 1200,
> 300, 2400, 4800, 19200, 600... in the hopes of saving time.  Every
> once in a while, you run into some oddball stuff, like 9600/150, etc.,
> split speeds from the days of timesharing setups where the CPU wanted
> to get data to the users as fast as possible but wanted to minimize
> input interrupts and more closely match the input flow to (slow) human
> typing speeds.  This wasn't common with microcomputers, but I've seen
> it with PDP-11 and PDP-8 setups and isn't something to look for first,
> but it does exist and highlights how strange things can get if all
> you've ever done is plug a high speed modem into a PC for dial-up
> internet.
> 
> One important tip about USB serial dongles (and some laptops DE9
> serial ports) - I've had problems with some of them and 1970s gear
> because the EIA/RS-232C (1969) level specification is +5V to +15V for
> space (0) and -15V to -5V for mark (1) (with +/-3V min sensitivity)
> and a lot of old gear is expecting +/-12V and not happy with
> lower-voltage lines and thin wires that don't help signal losses.  One
> case in particular was a 1977-era Bridgeport Series II CNC mill with a
> LSI-11/03 CPU and a lot of custom Bridgeport boards.  Everyone else
> who tried to talk to the Bridgeport before me had zero success.  I
> checked all the things on the list and finally pulled out the laptop
> and set up a Dell desktop which worked the first time.  When
> connecting to pre-1982 gear, I'd definitely try it from a desktop if a
> laptop is just not working.  Checking the lines with an oscilloscope
> could also help verify this what's giving the grief (I did not have
> one handy when we were trying to get that CNC mill working).
> 
> In terms of serial analyzers, there are several types out there, and
> the ones that I've had the most time on are the HP 4951/4952 series.
> There are different models with different features, but if you are
> going to shop for one, ensure it comes with the "keyboard lid" because
> that's where the line drivers and serial connectors are.  The large
> connector on the back goes to a "pod" that happens to snap on the
> front of the unit when the keyboard is flipped up.  It's much easier
> to find the base units than loose pods, IME.  Check which pod.  I've
> seen many with DB25s, which is probably what you want, but I've also
> seen DC-37 connectors, and non-EIA (RS-232) level shifters.  The good
> news is that among these different models, the pods 

Re: the value of old test and repair equipment

[Joseph Zatarski]

>The y have used Fairchild for their source.
>
>If so, that explains the high rate of failure.
>
>Years ago when at Intel, we disqualified Fairchild
>
>as a source for parts because of the poor testing
>
>and high failure rates.
>
>Dwight

I seem to remember the 7474 that failed was actually a TI part, but
I'm not entirely sure now.

Something I forgot to note was that this instrument (the 4261A) was
actually manufactured for HP by Yokogawa, I'm not too sure where the
HP part ends and the Yokogawa begins, maybe it was designed by HP and
built by Yokogawa, or maybe the whole thing was a contracted design
for HP by Yokogawa.

Re: memory map for RT-11 v 5

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 12, 2016, at 9:28 AM, Jerome H. Fine  wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> V02C-02 is just one of the versions (out of about 23 versions) that are
> available on the CD image at classiccmp which is available for download.
> ...
> What I am curious about are the two files:
> ASEMBL.SAV
> EXPAND.SAV
> Did these two files do anything special?

If you have enough memory (16 kW or more, I think) then you can run MACRO, the 
PDP11 macro assembler.  If all you have is 8 kW, that won't work.  Instead, you 
use EXPAND on your MACRO-11 source code to expand the macros, and ASEMBL on the 
resulting plain assembly language file.  Think of it like classic C compilers 
where you first run cpp to expand the preprocessor macros and then cc to 
compile the resulting foo.i file.

ASEMBL is somewhat like the earlier PAL11 no-macro assembler for the PDP11 
paper tape system and early (V4) DOS.

paul

Re: Tape imaging

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 10:27 PM, asw...@t-online.de wrote:
> 
> I do have two original CDC 603 tape drives with controller, but to be honest 
> it would be quite a challenge to hook them to a modern system.

603?  My manuals don't go back that far.  What kind of drive is that, and what 
does the controller connect to?

If it's a 6000 series channel interface, then that's very easy to deal with.  
Channel to PCI-e interfaces have been built (out of FPGAs) and hooked up to 
DtCyber.  If it's some other type of channel, the same sort of answer would 
apply; none of those old channels are all that complex.

paul

Re: memory map for RT-11 v 5

[Jerome H. Fine]

>On Sunday, July 24th, 2016 at 22:17:24 -0700, Don North wrote:


>On 7/24/2016 2:37 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

>On Jul 24, 2016, at 11:06 AM, william degnan  
wrote:



...
Attempts to boot from RT11SJ.SYS under V04.00 of RT-11 with 24K
bytes of memory were successful.  Attempts to boot with 16K bytes of
memory were also successful.  An RK05 was used as the disk drive.  The
error message "Insufficient memory" is displayed, but some useful work
might be done with just 16K bytes of memory. However, you did not
ask if useful work being done was one of the criteria?


FWIW, I used to run RT11SJ on an 11/20 with 8 kW (16 kB) of memory 
and RC11 system disk, in college.  That fit with no trouble, enough 
room to run RT BASIC and a reasonably application program.


paul 


And it still works today:

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Betagit commit id: 4065f47f
sim> set cpu 11/05 16k
sim> sho cpu
CPU 11/05, idle disabled, autoconfiguration enabled
16KB
sim> att rk0 rt11.dsk
sim> boot rk0

RT-11SJV02C-02

.
.R PIP
*/L

DTMNSJ.SYS   46 27-NOV-75
DTMNFB.SYS   58 27-NOV-75
DP.SYS2 27-NOV-75
RK.SYS2 27-NOV-75
RF.SYS2 27-NOV-75
TT.SYS2 27-NOV-75
LP.SYS2 27-NOV-75
BA.SYS7 27-NOV-75
SYSMAC.SML   18 27-NOV-75
SYSMAC.8K25 27-NOV-75
BATCH .SAV   25 27-NOV-75
EDIT  .SAV   19 27-NOV-75
MACRO .SAV   31 27-NOV-75
ASEMBL.SAV   21 27-NOV-75
EXPAND.SAV   12 27-NOV-75
CREF  .SAV5 27-NOV-75
LINK  .SAV   25 27-NOV-75
PIP   .SAV   14 27-NOV-75
PATCH .SAV5 27-NOV-75
ODT   .OBJ9 27-NOV-75
VTHDLR.OBJ8 27-NOV-75
DEMOFG.MAC5 27-NOV-75
DEMOBG.MAC4 27-NOV-75
KB.MAC   33 27-NOV-75
LIBR  .SAV   15 27-NOV-75
MONITR.SYS   46 27-NOV-75
RKMNFB.SYS   58 27-NOV-75
RFMNSJ.SYS   46 27-NOV-75
RFMNFB.SYS   58 27-NOV-75
DPMNSJ.SYS   46 27-NOV-75
DPMNFB.SYS   58 27-NOV-75
DXMNSJ.SYS   46 27-NOV-75
DXMNFB.SYS   58 27-NOV-75
DT.SYS2 27-NOV-75
DX.SYS2 27-NOV-75
CR.SYS3 27-NOV-75
MT.SYS6 27-NOV-75
MM.SYS6 27-NOV-75
PR.SYS2 27-NOV-75
PP.SYS2 27-NOV-75
CT.SYS5 27-NOV-75
DS.SYS2 27-NOV-75
FILEX .SAV   11 27-NOV-75
SRCCOM.SAV   11 27-NOV-75
DUMP  .SAV5 27-NOV-75
PATCHO.SAV   33 27-NOV-75
VTMAC .MAC7 27-NOV-75
SYSF4 .OBJ   33 27-NOV-75
BASIC .SAV   36
BAS8K .SAV   34
DEMO  .BAS3
51 FILES, 1014 BLOCKS
3760 FREE BLOCKS
*
.
.R BAS8K

BASIC V01B-02
*

READY

OLD
OLD FILE NAME--DEMO

READY

LIST

DEMO   BASIC V01B-02

10 REM BASIC PROGRAM TO GENERATE N TERMS OF A FIBONACCI SERIES,
20 REM THE FIRST TWO TERMS OF WHICH ARE SPECIFIED BY THE USER.
30 REM
40 REM PRINT IDENTIFYING MESSAGE
50 PRINT "PROGRAM TO GENERATE A FIBONACCI SERIES"
60 REM
70 REM GET THE LENGTH AND FIRST TWO TERMS OF THE SERIES
80 PRINT "HOW MANY TERMS DO YOU WANT GENERATED";
90 INPUT L
100 IF L<>0 THEN 130
110 REM IF HE REQUESTS 0 TERMS,TERMINATE EXECUTION
120 STOP
130 PRINT "WHAT IS THE FIRST TERM";
140 INPUT T1
150 PRINT "WHAT IS THE SECOND TERM";
160 INPUT T2
170 REM MAKE SURE L IS NOT NEGATIVE OR TOO LARGE
180 IF L<3 THEN 200
190 IF L<50 THEN 220
200 PRINT L;"TERMS DOES NOT REALLY MAKE SENSE."
210 GO TO 80
220 REM PRINT THE FIRST TWO TERMS OF THE SERIES
230 PRINT "THE REQUESTED SERIES IS"
240 PRINT T1
250 PRINT T2
260 L=L-2
270 REM CALCULATE NEXT TERM AND PRINT IT
280 N=T1+T2
290 T1=T2
300 T2=N
310 PRINT N
320 REM DETERMINE IF SERIES IS FINISHED. IF SO,DO NEXT ONE.
330 L=L-1
340 IF L<=0 THEN 80
350 GO TO 280
360 END

READY

RUN

DEMO   BASIC V01B-02

PROGRAM TO GENERATE A FIBONACCI SERIES
HOW MANY TERMS DO YOU WANT GENERATED?4
WHAT IS THE FIRST TERM?12
WHAT IS THE SECOND TERM?5
THE REQUESTED SERIES IS
 12
 5
 17
 22
HOW MANY TERMS DO YOU WANT GENERATED?0

STOP AT LINE 120

READY


V02C-02 is just one of the versions (out of about 23 versions) that are
available on the CD image at classiccmp which is available for download.

The V02C-02 version of RT-11 on the CD has 58 files with 1212 blocks,
although the date on all of the files is November 20th, 1975 or a week 
earlier.
It would be interesting to compare all of the common files to see if 
they are

identical.  I suspect that they probably are.

What I am curious about are the two files:
ASEMBL.SAV
EXPAND.SAV
Did these two files do anything special?

For historical purposes, it would also be interesting to also preserve 
the files:

BASIC.SAV
BAS8K.SAV
DEMO.BAS
that you have along with the F4.SAV (or FORTRA.SAV) which DEC
released in 1975 - probably V2 of FORTRAN IV.  The early versions
of FORTRAN IV are available elsewhere for download

Jerome Fine

R: HP to acquire SGI

[Mazzini Alessandro]

It was not enough to have mishandled vms, and killed palm. Now they want to 
destroy also what's left of SGI ?
Better I don't say what I'm really thinking...


-Messaggio originale-
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Per conto di Christian Liendo
Inviato: venerdì 12 agosto 2016 14:49
A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Oggetto: HP to acquire SGI

This is for all my SGI guys out there.


http://insidehpc.com/2016/08/hewlett-packard-enterprise-to-acquire-sgi-to-extend-leadership-in-high-growth-big-data-analytics-and-high-performance-computing/

HP to acquire SGI

[Christian Liendo]

This is for all my SGI guys out there.


http://insidehpc.com/2016/08/hewlett-packard-enterprise-to-acquire-sgi-to-extend-leadership-in-high-growth-big-data-analytics-and-high-performance-computing/

Re: Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11

[Adrian Stoness]

8i I want one for my panel rebuild project

On Aug 12, 2016 3:49 AM, "Rod Smallwood" 
wrote:

Hi Guys

Well my panels made to VCF. I have had some feedback and I
expect more.

Currently I have stock of PDP-8/e (Types A and B) , PDP-8/f and PDP-8/m.

PDP-8/i should be out of manufacturing by now. Next up is PDP-8/L.

 -++ Order the above now ++

Due to our house remodeling and holidays at the silk screen studio it was
quiet up until this week..

However now things have started up again. I'm about to revisit the PDP-8
bezel project.

The prototype had a few issues but nothing major. I should have a painted
example shortly.

Once the PDP-8/L batch are safely in the stock room it will be time to
start on PDP-11 panels.

+++  Please register interest in bezels and PDP-11
panels 

Rod (Panelman) Smallwood

Front Panel - Update. - PDP=8/i and PDP-8/l - Bezels - PDP-11

[Rod Smallwood]

Hi Guys

Well my panels made to VCF. I have had some feedback 
and I expect more.


Currently I have stock of PDP-8/e (Types A and B) , PDP-8/f and PDP-8/m.

PDP-8/i should be out of manufacturing by now. Next up is PDP-8/L.

 -++ Order the above now ++

Due to our house remodeling and holidays at the silk screen studio it 
was quiet up until this week..


However now things have started up again. I'm about to revisit the PDP-8 
bezel project.


The prototype had a few issues but nothing major. I should have a 
painted example shortly.


Once the PDP-8/L batch are safely in the stock room it will be time to 
start on PDP-11 panels.


+++  Please register interest in bezels and PDP-11 
panels 


Rod (Panelman) Smallwood

Re: Tape imaging

[shadoooo]

Hello Andreas,
nice to see you here from time to time.
I too have two TSZ07, but both had problems with the PSU after some time 
of good working condition.
The problem was always related, as indirect cause, to bad electrolytic 
capacitors, however the effect was always bad.


The first one in the end became somehow over-stressed and had a 
transistor burned to short circuit;

replaced the transistor, and all the capacitors, it was ok.
After the repair operation, one of the motors lost the magnet inside, so 
I had to dismount it, open it carefully,
put the magnet in place with wood parts to keep it in the right 
position, reglue the magnet with acrylic glue, remount.

Worked!

The second one began suddenly to oscillate badly, so on the 5V output 
there were peaks from 0V to 15-20V...

It remained in the bad state for just 3-5 seconds, then I turned on 220V.
Too bad, a microprocessor on the control board was fried. As I didn't 
find any schematic at the time (and not one so far),
it took me a life with the bare oscilloscope to understand which 
component was defective, ordered it form the US,

desoldered with hot air, resoldered, et voila, it became to life again...
Worked, but I paid more for the repair / components than what I paid for 
the drive...


I know also Holm has such a drive, again problems with the PSU... 
overheating.


So be warned: replace all the relevant capacitors before operate the 
drive, to avoid problems.
If you want and have some patience, I could take some pictures to show 
you what parts are delicate and what not.
The PSU inside has two boards, one is high-voltage stage, the other has 
the main transformer and the low-voltage stage.

It produces IIRC -12V, +5V (standby), +5V (high current), +12V, +37V.
To test the PSU alone, you need to connect a resistor between two pins 
of a connector (I should double-check in case
you want to know), otherwise it will not power-up, only standby voltage 
will be present, but it's not supplied by the switching high-power circuit.
I recommend a test of one hour or more with load resistors (or lamps) 
and voltage monitoring to test the effective operation.


Let me know if you need some help.

(out of band data): do you have some information about trips to Munchen 
or somewhere in Bayern or Osterreich?
Didn't heard of you anymore lately... We still have the drive swap to 
organize! Please let me know.


Thanks
Andrea

Re: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825

[curiousmarc3]

I got the HP 9885 single sided disk unit that was at Weird Stuff, thanks for 
the heads up! Now I just need a parallel interface for the 9825, a cable, the 
right 8" diskettes, and get my HP-IB 9895 to work... That's a lot of stars to 
align but that should be fun to try.
Marc

> On Jul 24, 2016, at 3:30 AM, David Collins  wrote:
> 
> Guys, I've looked for a 98228A ROM in the HP Computer Museum but haven't
> been able to find one - but it looks like we've had one at some stage
> judging by the photo. 
> 
> If I come across it I'll come back to you. 
> 
> David Collins 
> Curator
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of CuriousMarc
> Sent: Saturday, 23 July 2016 5:40 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> 
> Subject: RE: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825
> 
> Thanks, I didn't know, I grabbed the image. That offers a path if I can ever
> get an 9885 and single sides 8" discs...
> Marc
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul 
>> Berger On the hpmuseum.net page for the 98217A ROM here is an image of 
>> what is reputed to be an initialized diskette for use with 9825 and 
>> 98217A http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=166. When I get my 
>> 9825T I will look into 9885 emulation, I don't think it will be too
> difficult but
>> you may still need a GPIO unless I build the whole thing onto a 
>> plug-in card I don't think the GPIO would be too difficult to clone.
>> But ideally I would still like to get access to a 98228A ROM to dump 
>> and
> clone
>> it, even though it is bank switched it should still be possible.
>> 
>> Paul.
> 
> 

Re: Tape imaging

[COURYHOUSE]

yep think  31 is  right.
have  RCA tr-5  quad unit  looking  for more quad recorders  always can 
swap some computer  stuff!
 
Anyway the fellow I  get the tr-5  from... he   alsoscrapped a tr-4 and I 
have   bies of parts  when I can access  the  parts  will check  for motors! 
ed#
 
 
In a message dated 8/11/2016 10:58:56 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
ccl...@sydex.com writes:

On  08/11/2016 10:07 PM, couryhouse wrote:
> 
> 
> Chuck we have  tape we also have one of the 30 something track
> heads at  smecc. I guess  won would have to build  the   motorized
> wingaxas... to pull the tape. ... the electronics can be  recreated...
> We figure the head is the hard part. ha!  and a  empty take up
> reel! Anyone habe one?Ed www.smecc.org

31 tracks  if I read the manual right.  The tape itself is a mylar
sandwich, so  it should be plenty durable.  Reel motors should be no
great  deal--maybe you could scavenge them from an old Ampex  Quadruplex
VTR...

--Chuck

Re: Tape imaging

[emanuel stiebler]

On 2016-08-11 20:36, Al Kossow wrote:

One of the highest projects I have in the queue is getting one of John's
M4 9914V drives with 18 track MR heads running in my new lab at CHM.


What's the interface on the 18 track head?

Re: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?]

[drlegendre .]

> Spam should reduce when word gets around that spammers are being
> tortured to death.

I doubt it, some one will invent a religion that says tortured spammers get
to heaven first..

Yeah, wow.. not to put too fine a point on it, HA!



On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 1:26 AM, Dave Wade  wrote:

> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred
> Cisin
> > Sent: 11 August 2016 16:38
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > 
> > Subject: Re: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?]
> >
> > On Thu, 11 Aug 2016, geneb wrote:
> > > I think it would be more effective to stuff the spammer into a Brazen
> > > Bull and then force his children/family members to light the fire.
> > > Televise it across all media outlets.  Spam should slow to a tiny,
> > > tiny, trickle after one or two of these little events...
> >
>
> Firstly, there are many types of unwanted e-mail, and using the term SPAM
> to
> cover them all is a dis-service.
> A lot of reported SPAM simply comes from lists folks have signed up to, and
> who can't be bothered to un-sign themselves off the list.
>
> The e-mail in question was not one of those, it was almost certainly sent
> by
> a criminal attempting to steal and re-sell some ones credentials.
>
> I am fairly certain the e-mail originated from 102.47.65.89. Sticking that
> into an Internet Search engine reports...
>
> IP General Information
>
> IP Address: 103.47.65.89
> Hostname: 103.47.65.89
> ISP: Zapbytes Technologies Pvt.
>
> Geolocation Information
>
> Continent: Asia (AS)
> Country: India (IN) IN
> City: Delhi
> Latitude: 28.6667 (28°40'0.12" N), Longitude: 77.2167 (77°13'0.12" N)
>
>
> > Spam should reduce when word gets around that spammers are being
> > tortured to death.
>
> I doubt it, some one will invent a religion that says tortured spammers get
> to heaven first..
>
> >
> > Decriminalize spammercide.
> >
> >
> > Spread the word - "spammers are already being murdered."
> >
> >
> Dave
> G4UGM
>
>
>

Re: SWTPC 6800

[Pontus Pihlgren]

Very interresting read, thank you Ethan.

/P

On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 10:55:54AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Chris Elmquist  wrote:
> > On Friday (08/05/2016 at 06:50PM +), tony duell wrote:
> >>
> >> Am I the only person who rarely, if ever, has RS232 problems?
> >
> > No.  ;-)
> 
> No, but I used to manufacture sync serial hardware and have deep
> knowledge of how async serial in general, and RS-232/EIA works in
> particular, and still have all the test gear from 30 years ago.  I get
> why people find serial comms frustrating and do not take my
> experiences as "typical".
> 
> I pretty much don't hook up anything new that isn't on a "traffic
> light".  I have several - DE9-DE9 for modern stuff, and multiple
> DB25-DB25 for old and new stuff.  *Mostly*, if you plug everything in
> and you get at least TxD and RxD to light up, you at least have
> figured out where the primary gozintas and gozoutas go and can stop
> adding null-modem adapters.  Past that, you have to know if either end
> requires hardware handshaking and either plumb the right signals
> (vintage setup documentation is invaluable for this) or bridge the
> appropriate lines (documentation again) so that one or both sides
> _thinks_ there's hardware handshaking.  If you defeat it, you might
> run into overrun conditions, but at least you should be able to
> establish basic comms and pass a few characters.  To that end, you do
> have to match speeds on both sides, and the usual best place to start
> is 8-N-1 for data bits, parity, and stop bits.  I've run into multiple
> situations where 7-E-1 or 7-N-1 is the right answer.  With enough
> experience, the "baud barf" from mismatched speeds takes on an often
> recognizable pattern that can be used to quickly figure out what the
> speed ought to be, but lacking instrumentation like a serial analyzer
> or an oscilloscope, one can try "all the speeds" until cleartext comes
> through.  I also try the speeds in "most popular order", 9600, 1200,
> 300, 2400, 4800, 19200, 600... in the hopes of saving time.  Every
> once in a while, you run into some oddball stuff, like 9600/150, etc.,
> split speeds from the days of timesharing setups where the CPU wanted
> to get data to the users as fast as possible but wanted to minimize
> input interrupts and more closely match the input flow to (slow) human
> typing speeds.  This wasn't common with microcomputers, but I've seen
> it with PDP-11 and PDP-8 setups and isn't something to look for first,
> but it does exist and highlights how strange things can get if all
> you've ever done is plug a high speed modem into a PC for dial-up
> internet.
> 
> One important tip about USB serial dongles (and some laptops DE9
> serial ports) - I've had problems with some of them and 1970s gear
> because the EIA/RS-232C (1969) level specification is +5V to +15V for
> space (0) and -15V to -5V for mark (1) (with +/-3V min sensitivity)
> and a lot of old gear is expecting +/-12V and not happy with
> lower-voltage lines and thin wires that don't help signal losses.  One
> case in particular was a 1977-era Bridgeport Series II CNC mill with a
> LSI-11/03 CPU and a lot of custom Bridgeport boards.  Everyone else
> who tried to talk to the Bridgeport before me had zero success.  I
> checked all the things on the list and finally pulled out the laptop
> and set up a Dell desktop which worked the first time.  When
> connecting to pre-1982 gear, I'd definitely try it from a desktop if a
> laptop is just not working.  Checking the lines with an oscilloscope
> could also help verify this what's giving the grief (I did not have
> one handy when we were trying to get that CNC mill working).
> 
> In terms of serial analyzers, there are several types out there, and
> the ones that I've had the most time on are the HP 4951/4952 series.
> There are different models with different features, but if you are
> going to shop for one, ensure it comes with the "keyboard lid" because
> that's where the line drivers and serial connectors are.  The large
> connector on the back goes to a "pod" that happens to snap on the
> front of the unit when the keyboard is flipped up.  It's much easier
> to find the base units than loose pods, IME.  Check which pod.  I've
> seen many with DB25s, which is probably what you want, but I've also
> seen DC-37 connectors, and non-EIA (RS-232) level shifters.  The good
> news is that among these different models, the pods should be
> interchangable, so if you end up picking up 2 units (not unusual) with
> different base capabilities (some have DC-150 cassette tape, some have
> 3.5" floppy, plus some minor differences) and only one has a DB25 EIA
> pod, you can at least migrate it between the units.  I find the serial
> analyzers invaluable for snooping on the details of what's happening
> on the wire, but any analyzers I have seen have a handy "autoconfig"
> button to sniff traffic and configure the line for 

RE: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?]

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Cisin
> Sent: 11 August 2016 16:38
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: Spam [was Re: still looking for that stuff?]
> 
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2016, geneb wrote:
> > I think it would be more effective to stuff the spammer into a Brazen
> > Bull and then force his children/family members to light the fire.
> > Televise it across all media outlets.  Spam should slow to a tiny,
> > tiny, trickle after one or two of these little events...
> 

Firstly, there are many types of unwanted e-mail, and using the term SPAM to
cover them all is a dis-service. 
A lot of reported SPAM simply comes from lists folks have signed up to, and
who can't be bothered to un-sign themselves off the list.

The e-mail in question was not one of those, it was almost certainly sent by
a criminal attempting to steal and re-sell some ones credentials.

I am fairly certain the e-mail originated from 102.47.65.89. Sticking that
into an Internet Search engine reports...

IP General Information

IP Address: 103.47.65.89
Hostname: 103.47.65.89
ISP: Zapbytes Technologies Pvt.

Geolocation Information

Continent: Asia (AS)
Country: India (IN) IN
City: Delhi
Latitude: 28.6667 (28°40'0.12" N), Longitude: 77.2167 (77°13'0.12" N)


> Spam should reduce when word gets around that spammers are being
> tortured to death.

I doubt it, some one will invent a religion that says tortured spammers get
to heaven first..

> 
> Decriminalize spammercide.
> 
> 
> Spread the word - "spammers are already being murdered."
> 
> 
Dave
G4UGM