Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk]

Congratulations to us all, even if a little late.

It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist?

/P

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 09:09:01PM +, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
> A FAQ in my old emails show the founding of the Classiccmp mailing list as 
> being 20 years and 1 month ago. March 13 1997 was when Bill Whitson first set 
> up the classiccmp list at the University of Washington.
> 
> Tim N3QE
> 
> 
> Sent from my VAX-11/780

Re: Bitsavers size

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tony Duell via cctalk" 
To: 
Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; 
"Shoppa, Tim" 
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: Bitsavers size


> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:27 PM, Rob Jarratt
>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
>>> >
>>> > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.
>>>
>>> That is not totally ridiculous
>>>
>>> Now, if I want bitsavers on paper tape
>>>
>>> >
>>
>> My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately
>> 4 million miles of paper tape.
> 
> I think you're out by a factor of 10 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as
> there are 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I
> get just over 400,000 miles.
> 
> My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes
> So 10 for a megabyte
> 1 for a gigabyte
> 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an
> approximation
> 
> -tony

I've got a couple of reels that I can contribute if you don't have quite 
enough...

;-)

Re: Bitsavers size

[Alexandre Souza via cctalk]

Is there interesting of having a "comunity backup" of bitsavers in Brazil?

Here in Sao Paulo we have a network maintained by friends. When we meet, we
all r-sync our secondary backups and when we get home, r-sync the primary
backups. We have many data repositories in safe harbour, and we would be
interested in mirroring bitsavers too.

If it is ok, we can arrange ONE rsync via internet (or HD thru mail) and
share in Brazil.

Thanks
Alexandre

2017-04-20 18:13 GMT-03:00 Yvan Janssens via cctalk :

> At the risk of sounding like a nitpicker, I think that mainly depends on if
> it's a motorway, a highway or the Autobahn.
>
> /y
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 at 22:12, Glen Slick via cctalk  >
> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 20, 2017 1:59 PM, "Rich Alderson via cctalk" <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk.  We're
> then
> > down to 6 or 11 platters.
> >
> >
> > What's the thoughput of a station wagon full of Blue-Ray discs hurtling
> > down the highway?
> >
>

Re: Remex Tape Reader - Pre-power up advice?

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 4/18/2017 3:17 AM, Christian Corti via cctech wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2017, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>> There are what appear to be 1976 date codes on some caps.
>>
>> If its that old then replace all and any electrolytic capacitors plus
>> any paper based caps.
>>
>> If they aint bad now they soon will be.
> 
> *shaking head*
> 
> Sorry, this is just a plain dumb answer. If they are good now, they
> probably will be good in 10 years, too. We never change any caps just
> because of their age.
> 
> I suggest: check for electrical safety, then plug it in and try it;
> after all, it's "just" a tape reader with a simple PSU, not a 50s era
> mainframe.
> It will just work, I guess. If there should be a problem with those "big
> caps", you'll see it. But it's much faster and easier to test them
> beforehand (i.e. short or no short) than to foolishly replace everything.
> 
> Christian
> 

While I also do not typically replace capacitors outright, I don't think
that the answer is "dumb".  It just comes from a different perspective -
typically from those who for one reason or another wish to maximize
reliability and don't care to deal with failures down the road, and for
whom preserving original components is not a priority.

But I also I don't think that just plugging the unit in and turning it
on (aka a "smoke test") right off the bat is necessarily prudent.  A
shorted input capacitor can easily take rectifiers with it (a capacitor
that needed reforming did that to a rectifier bridge on my PDP-12 at one
point), and a shorted output capacitor can take regulator components
with it.  Also, a shorted capacitor can generate enough steam to
explode, if it doesn't have a pressure relief plug, and that can be
messy, regardless.

So what I typically do is locate the larger capacitors in the supply,
and re-form them (I think so far I have only run into a couple that
needed replacement due to an unacceptably high ESR).  This spots shorted
units along the way, and one only need disconnect on lead to the
capacitor to accomplish the work.  Also, it allows one to bring the
capacitor up to its rated voltage, rather than just the in-circuit voltage.

JRJ

Re: Bitsavers size

[Yvan Janssens via cctalk]

At the risk of sounding like a nitpicker, I think that mainly depends on if
it's a motorway, a highway or the Autobahn.

/y
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 at 22:12, Glen Slick via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Apr 20, 2017 1:59 PM, "Rich Alderson via cctalk"  >
> wrote:
>
>
> I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk.  We're then
> down to 6 or 11 platters.
>
>
> What's the thoughput of a station wagon full of Blue-Ray discs hurtling
> down the highway?
>

Re: bitsavers rsync server down

[Sam O'nella via cctalk]

Tape backup lto would do it easily, at this point probably incremental backups 
to an external drive would be a cheap alternative too.


On 4/20/2017 12:15 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Ben wrote...
> 
> Just how big is the server?
> 
> Bitsavers that is publicly visible is around 275gb 

How does one back up a system like that?
(That could be the shortage of of oiled paper tape).
Ben.

Re: Bitsavers size

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:27 PM, Rob Jarratt
 wrote:
>
>
>> > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
>> >
>> > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.
>>
>> That is not totally ridiculous
>>
>> Now, if I want bitsavers on paper tape
>>
>> >
>
> My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately
> 4 million miles of paper tape.

I think you're out by a factor of 10 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as
there are 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I
get just over 400,000 miles.

My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes
So 10 for a megabyte
1 for a gigabyte
2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an
approximation

-tony

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

wow what?

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > On Apr 20, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > A FAQ in my old emails show the founding of the Classiccmp mailing list
> as being 20 years and 1 month ago. March 13 1997 was when Bill Whitson
> first set up the classiccmp list at the University of Washington.
> >
> > Tim N3QE
> >
> >
> > Sent from my VAX-11/780
>
>
> That means I’ve been on this list for just short of 20 years.  I think its
> safe to say that a list dedicated to computer history, forgot its own
> history.
>
>
> Zane
>
>
>
>

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Apr 20, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> A FAQ in my old emails show the founding of the Classiccmp mailing list as 
> being 20 years and 1 month ago. March 13 1997 was when Bill Whitson first set 
> up the classiccmp list at the University of Washington.
> 
> Tim N3QE
> 
> 
> Sent from my VAX-11/780


That means I’ve been on this list for just short of 20 years.  I think its safe 
to say that a list dedicated to computer history, forgot its own history.


Zane

Re: Bitsavers size

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/20/2017 02:35 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> It would only be a bit more than a million 8" SSSD floppies.


Best to be period-correct.  First 72 columns of an 80-colum punched
card.   Wonder if you could find a card punch that could do the deed
before it broke down.

--Chuck

RE: Bitsavers size

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk.  We're then
down to 6 or 11 platters.


It would only be a bit more than a million 8" SSSD floppies.


Cheapest might be to send it out on a 1/2TB hard disk.

If you worry about survivability of transport abuse,
then it could easily be resent if it arrives destroyed,
OR use a few 2.5" SSDs, 
although those should be copied to spinning rust on receipt,

as their longevity is uncertain.

Re: Bitsavers size

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/20/2017 02:12 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:

> What's the thoughput of a station wagon full of Blue-Ray discs
> hurtling down the highway?


Depends on the destination.  For Tristan da Cunha, I'd say it was zero.

--Chuck

RE: Bitsavers size

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Apr 20, 2017 1:59 PM, "Rich Alderson via cctalk" 
wrote:


I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk.  We're then
down to 6 or 11 platters.


What's the thoughput of a station wagon full of Blue-Ray discs hurtling
down the highway?

Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Shoppa, Tim via cctalk]

A FAQ in my old emails show the founding of the Classiccmp mailing list as 
being 20 years and 1 month ago. March 13 1997 was when Bill Whitson first set 
up the classiccmp list at the University of Washington.

Tim N3QE


Sent from my VAX-11/780

RE: Bitsavers size

[Rich Alderson via cctalk]

From: Shoppa, Tim
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 10:49 AM

> Ben asks:

>> Just how big is the server?

>> As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the
>> common stuff.

> The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.

> So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

> I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner Ring
> Cycle on convenient 45 RPM records.

I would suggest using Blue-Ray media, at 25GB or 50GB per disk.  We're then
down to 6 or 11 platters.

Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputers.org

http://www.LivingComputers.org/

RE: bitsavers rsync server down

[Jay West via cctalk]

Gene wrote
-
One of these days you should post a list. :)
-
Ha! I Have, several times. I'm still wrapping up the datacenter migration.
At this point, its down to loose ends and freebie/myhobbystuff :)

The classiccmp server will be reloaded, a few much needed disks added... and
there's been a host (pun intended) of classic computing websites asking to
be hosted here and I've been putting them off till the above is completed.

Still working on those roundtuits, but it'll happen.

J

RE: Bitsavers size

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> > The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
> >
> > So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.
> 
> That is not totally ridiculous
> 
> Now, if I want bitsavers on paper tape
> 
> >

My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately 4 million miles of 
paper tape.

Regards

Rob

RE: bitsavers rsync server down

[geneb via cctalk]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Jay West via cctalk wrote:


But the classiccmp server... has significantly more than that, due to all
the classiccmp related websites and archives/repositories that are hosted
there.


One of these days you should post a list. :)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Bitsavers size

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/20/2017 10:49 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:

> I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner
> Ring Cycle on convenient 45 RPM records.


Not to throw a wet blanket on Prof. Schickele's gag, but there *were*
(and still are--Standard Vinyl will cut them for you) 12" 45 RPM LPs.

As a matter of fact, you can occasionally find them offered on eBay.
Somewhere around 15 minutes play per side.

--Chuck

Re: bitsavers rsync server down

[ben via cctalk]

On 4/20/2017 12:15 PM, Jay West wrote:

Ben wrote...

Just how big is the server?

Bitsavers that is publicly visible is around 275gb but there's some other
bitsavers working areas.

But the classiccmp server... has significantly more than that, due to all
the classiccmp related websites and archives/repositories that are hosted
there.

J


How does one back up a system like that?
(That could be the shortage of of oiled paper tape).
Ben.

Re: Bitsavers size

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 20, 2017, at 1:49 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Ben asks:
>> Just how big is the server?
>> As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the 
>> common stuff.
> 
> The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
> 
> So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

Or 6 dual-layer DB disks...

paul

RE: bitsavers rsync server down

[Jay West via cctalk]

Ben wrote...

Just how big is the server?

Bitsavers that is publicly visible is around 275gb but there's some other
bitsavers working areas.

But the classiccmp server... has significantly more than that, due to all
the classiccmp related websites and archives/repositories that are hosted
there.

J

Re: Bitsavers size

[ben via cctalk]

On 4/20/2017 11:49 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:

Ben asks:

Just how big is the server?
As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the 
common stuff.


The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.

So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner Ring Cycle 
on convenient 45 RPM records.

Tim N3QE


You mean I can get both! :)
Ben.

Re: Bitsavers size

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 6:49 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
 wrote:
> Ben asks:
>> Just how big is the server?
>> As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the 
>> common stuff.
>
> The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.
>
> So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

That is not totally ridiculous

Now, if I want bitsavers on paper tape

>
> I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner Ring
> Cycle on convenient 45 RPM records.

Two things are now going through my mind...

Flanders and Swann :
"I've an opera here you shan't escape
On miles and miles of recording tape"
(from 'A song of reproduction')

And Blackadder
"The german reputation for cruelty is well founded
Their operas last several days"

-tony

Bitsavers size

[Shoppa, Tim via cctalk]

Ben asks:
> Just how big is the server?
> As a wish list, I've always wanted that as a offline set of DVD's for the 
> common stuff.

The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.

So at 4.7G per DVD, it comes out to almost 60 DVD's.

I remember a PDQ Bach radio quiz show where the prize was The Wagner Ring Cycle 
on convenient 45 RPM records.

Tim N3QE

Re: How to refurbish plotter pens?

[Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk]

Hi,

I read that discussion.

> Jon you were very very lucky to get that wooden box and its contents
> !, There were basic kits and I don't know the original word, but
> 'super kits'. A super kit sold on eBay not too long ago. I have 90% of
> the basic kit. BTW my 565 is also IBM branded. It came off a IBM 1130.
>
> I've never tried using the Fisher pens, but they do show up from time
> to time on the usual auction sites. And if someone does discover they
> are the same or can be easily adapted you can sometimes find them in
> independent owned stationary stores, the type of Ma+Pop store where
> nothing gets thrown out, just moved to the basement.
>

I don't know tooo much about the different kits. I have a "small" kit 
containing colored Fisher pressurized cartridges (labelled CalComp) 
which seem to work forever.


In your picture you have a normal ballpen. I tried to emulate that by 
cutting down one. It's a mess and not very funny.


I know the following configs:

Outer shell (always same), narrow inlay, narrow top cap --> for the pen 
you pictured,


Outer shell, wide inlay, wide top cap --> For the Fisher pen

Outer shell, some other inlay, ink top cap, some plastic ink pen stuff 
--> The ink pen config


I should have all those. Don't know if more existed.
Not yet tried the ink variant.

I usually use the Fisher things with my 565/563 plotters (both plural).


I have the 565 on the list of things to build a more modern interface
for. And a good example is a Onion.io Omega2+, there should be more
then enough room to have a simple HPGL emulator.


I did it already (more or less):

1. Made an interface for my Honeywell H316 using WireWrap and forgetting 
about the circuit (no schematics). I wrote a FORTRAN IV linkable library 
that can even draw Hershey fonts on the H316.


2. Used pdp8 Omnibus original interface and wrote a stripped HPGL 
interpreter. Now the pdp8 can "play" PC prepared HPGL files to the 
CalComp plotter



Main problem around CalComp plotters is the paper. It's rare as hell. 
Anything else can be found easier. The plotters are not considered 
valuable (yet?).


For the 565, you can simply cut sheets and wrap them around the drum. My 
kit also contains some scotch tape for that (original and mentioned as a 
use case for the plotter in the manual).
For the 563, the form factor of the drum is not ideal - if you want to 
use the whole drum.


Kind regards

Philipp