Re: DEC archives

[emanuel stiebler via cctalk]

On 2017-06-14 19:54, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:



On 6/14/17 7:27 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:

A thousand boxes are not at all accessible.


They are trivial to access. You just have to cart your lazy asses to Fremont.


I probably will take exactly that route ;-)

But seriously, does it make sense to got there for few days, and support 
somebody in scanning the material?


I understand, that in few days we can't scan all, but it is a start?

Re: Sparcbook 1

[dwight via cctalk]

https://labs.ono-sendai.com/docs/SPARCbook%201%20Technical%20Reference%20Manual.pdf


 site has the technical manual. Several sites have the users manual ( I do have 
that one ).

Dwight




From: cctalk  on behalf of jim stephens via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 5:12:21 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Sparcbook 1

I'd love to get what you have with the remaining schematics and
technical info.

I don't have any such documentation right now or where to find any online.
thanks
jim

On 6/14/2017 4:44 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Ok, this will be a tough one.
>
> I've located a Sparcbook 1 technical manual. It has a lot of good
>
> information in it with schematics for the electronic.
>
> It seems to be missing schematics for the power supply in
>
> it. This takes the single input and creates all the other
>
> voltages, like +-12V and such.
>
> Does anyone have the schematics for the supply?
>
> Dwight
>
>
>

Re: Electronic Systems TRS-80 Serial I/O Board?

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 6:14 PM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> FWIW the send and receive clocks are separate on the 1602 Uart.
>

That is true of all traditional UARTs.  For fancier parts intended for
direct connection to microprocessor buses , some have separate clocks,
others don't. Some bond options for Z80-SIO have separate clocks for first
channel, combined clock for second channel, because the Z80-SIO really had
41 signals, and compromises had to be made to put it in a 40-pin DIP.

Separate rx and tx rates was important when using a modem with asymmetric
rates, like Bell 202, which was 1200bps in "forward" direction and 75bps in
reverse direction.  That mostly went away when synchronous modem
modulations came into vogue, e.g., Bell 212 and V.22, for 1200 bps full
duplex, and most things after that.

Even when synchronous modem modulations started having different rates in
the opposite directions again, e.g., V.90 and V.92, using a single bit rate
on the electrical interface to the modem for both rx and tx had become so
ingrained that no one seriously entertained the idea of going back to split
rates on that interface.  The problem is solved (usually) by flow control.

Re: Electronic Systems TRS-80 Serial I/O Board?

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 6/14/2017 11:42 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:

No, the prints (1105_RevAH_EngrDrws_Jul76, page 71) shows there's only one RC
circuit associated with the UART. I don't know what the second trim-pot does
(I'm too lazy to look over the prints to find it:-).

Oh, regarding the two trimpots (as well as the 7493 divider) I was referring to 
the original-poster TRS-80 serial board, not the PDP11/05.

FWIW the send and receive clocks are separate on the 1602 Uart.

Re: Sparcbook 1

[jim stephens via cctalk]

I'd love to get what you have with the remaining schematics and 
technical info.


I don't have any such documentation right now or where to find any online.
thanks
jim

On 6/14/2017 4:44 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote:

Ok, this will be a tough one.

I've located a Sparcbook 1 technical manual. It has a lot of good

information in it with schematics for the electronic.

It seems to be missing schematics for the power supply in

it. This takes the single input and creates all the other

voltages, like +-12V and such.

Does anyone have the schematics for the supply?

Dwight

Sparcbook 1

[dwight via cctalk]

Ok, this will be a tough one.

I've located a Sparcbook 1 technical manual. It has a lot of good

information in it with schematics for the electronic.

It seems to be missing schematics for the power supply in

it. This takes the single input and creates all the other

voltages, like +-12V and such.

Does anyone have the schematics for the supply?

Dwight

Re: DEC archives

[Ian S. King via cctalk]

>
> > On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 10:54:03AM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> > > They are trivial to access. You just have to cart your lazy asses to
> > > Fremont.
> >
>
I wonder: how technical is the 'technical' content?  I have been looking
for even pinout-level documentation for my VAX 6000-660 for some time.  I'd
part with significant organs to obtain printsets of power supply elements.
Al?

And it looks like I'm burning the bulk of my PTO on my daughter's high
school graduation and installation at university.  :-)  I might have to put
this on the list for 2018.  -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: DEC archives

[Mark Wickens via cctalk]

That is an immense pdf and collection. Some time and effort gone into that!

On 14 Jun 2017 19:18, "Mark Linimon via cctalk" 
wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 10:54:03AM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> > They are trivial to access. You just have to cart your lazy asses to
> > Fremont.
>
> I'll get down there just as soon as I've scanned in all my own stuff.
>
> 
>
> mcl
>

Re: Electronic Systems TRS-80 Serial I/O Board?

[Brent Hilpert via cctalk]

On 2017-Jun-14, at 11:33 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>> From: Brent Hilpert
> 
>> I don't expect anyone was making boards like this expecting to get the
>> target timing from fixed/off-the-shelf component values
> 
> Right, that comment was more directed to the discussion here about baud rate
> variation.
> 
>> There are two trimpots on the board, they could be one for each of the
>> rate series and switch-selected
> 
> No, the prints (1105_RevAH_EngrDrws_Jul76, page 71) shows there's only one RC
> circuit associated with the UART. I don't know what the second trim-pot does
> (I'm too lazy to look over the prints to find it :-).

Oh, regarding the two trimpots (as well as the 7493 divider) I was referring to 
the original-poster TRS-80 serial board, not the PDP11/05.

Electronic Systems TRS-80 Serial I/O Board?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Brent Hilpert

> I don't expect anyone was making boards like this expecting to get the
> target timing from fixed/off-the-shelf component values

Right, that comment was more directed to the discussion here about baud rate
variation.

> There are two trimpots on the board, they could be one for each of the
> rate series and switch-selected

No, the prints (1105_RevAH_EngrDrws_Jul76, page 71) shows there's only one RC
circuit associated with the UART. I don't know what the second trim-pot does
(I'm too lazy to look over the prints to find it :-).

Noel

Re: McLeyvier music synthesizer

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

There's a museum in otowa that might be some.of the stuff ur looking for

On Jun 14, 2017 1:02 PM, "Alan Frisbie via cctalk" 
wrote:

> Al Kossow  wrote:
> > Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote:
>
> > > Our current project is to replace the ST-506 disks with
> > > the David Gesswein MFM disk emulators.   To do this, we
> > > need to determine the CRC algorithm used by DTC, which we
> > > cannot find any documentation for.
>
> > did you ask david to try decoding the data for you? he's been
> > very good at doing so.
>
> Yes, I've discussed it with David, but we're waiting until
> we have the test rig set up before attacking it in depth.
> That should be in another week or two.
>
> > DTC documentation should be on bitsavers
>
> Yes, for which I am extremely grateful!   The DTC-11-1 host
> adapter manual is particularly valuable.   While there is a
> manual for the DTC-520A and the 500DB Series, there isn't one
> for the 520-1.   It's possible that the 520A is the same as
> the 520-1, but we're not sure yet.
>
> In any event, the CRC information is not in the manuals.   We'll
> probably start by just experimenting with common polynomials.
> Why would DTC engineers NOT use proven algorithms?   :-)
>
> Thanks,
> Alan Frisbie
>

Re: DEC archives

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 10:54:03AM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> They are trivial to access. You just have to cart your lazy asses to
> Fremont.

I'll get down there just as soon as I've scanned in all my own stuff.



mcl

Re: Electronic Systems TRS-80 Serial I/O Board?

[Brent Hilpert via cctalk]

On 2017-Jun-14, at 7:44 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>> From: Brent Hilpert
> 
>>> The trimpot on the board says to me that the clock is most likely a
>>> simple RC affair.
> 
>> There's a 7493 (4-bit counter) on the board as well, which looks to
>> have connections to the dip switches beside it, in all likelihood the
>> baud rate divider and rate selection
> 
> Yes; but the trim pot is also there because one has to set the basic clock to
> one of two values, depending on whether one wants the 150/.../2400
> selections, or the 110/etc selections; one has to set it to 26 usec for the
> former, and 35.5 usec for the latter.
> 
> So drift would have been an issue, but not initial component values...


Certainly calibration was required, I don't expect anyone was making boards 
like this expecting to get the target timing from fixed/off-the-shelf component 
values (although in theory one might if using a sine-wave rather than switching 
oscillator).

There are two trimpots on the board, they could be one for each of the rate 
series and switch-selected, so one wouldn't have to recalibrate between rate 
selections.

Re: McLeyvier music synthesizer

[Alan Frisbie via cctalk]

Al Kossow  wrote:
> Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote:

> > Our current project is to replace the ST-506 disks with
> > the David Gesswein MFM disk emulators.   To do this, we
> > need to determine the CRC algorithm used by DTC, which we
> > cannot find any documentation for.

> did you ask david to try decoding the data for you? he's been
> very good at doing so.

Yes, I've discussed it with David, but we're waiting until
we have the test rig set up before attacking it in depth.
That should be in another week or two.

> DTC documentation should be on bitsavers

Yes, for which I am extremely grateful!   The DTC-11-1 host
adapter manual is particularly valuable.   While there is a
manual for the DTC-520A and the 500DB Series, there isn't one
for the 520-1.   It's possible that the 520A is the same as
the 520-1, but we're not sure yet.

In any event, the CRC information is not in the manuals.   We'll
probably start by just experimenting with common polynomials.
Why would DTC engineers NOT use proven algorithms?   :-)

Thanks,
Alan Frisbie

Re: DEC archives

[Rod Smallwood via cctalk]

On 14/06/2017 18:54, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


On 6/14/17 7:27 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:

A thousand boxes are not at all accessible.

They are trivial to access. You just have to cart your lazy asses to Fremont.



About 8000 miles from here!
Rod

--
There is no wrong or right
Nor black and white.
Just darknessand light

Re: DEC archives

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 6/14/17 7:27 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:
> A thousand boxes are not at all accessible.

They are trivial to access. You just have to cart your lazy asses to Fremont.

Re: Front Panels - Follow up

[Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk]

On 14.06.2017 17:27, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
Silkscreen is actually pretty low-tech.  Anybody can do it in their 
basement.

This is pure theory :-)
Doing "some silkscreen" is pretty easy, yes. You don't need too much for it.

 (I made a large volume of low-density circuit boards a long 
time ago using silk-screen resist for etching.)

Low density... You've nailed it!

Maybe  your silkscreen provider would be willing to make your master 
artwork, or even process the whole silkscreen and give it to you, 

That is the labour intensive part.
To do it correctly by yourself, you need a phototypesetter (or, if you a 
heretic, a special (!) inkjet printer that prints on film),

a vaccuum exposure unit and some silkscreen tools.

You would need to make up a printing frame.  This is quite simple, a 
piece of plywood with some registration pins and a couple hinges. There 
are special hinge/clamp pieces that are made for silkscreen frames.  
Then, you need the inks and squeegees, all pretty standard items.

Ha ha!
Building your own frame is simply outdated. You never manage to 
correctly mount the tissue without special gear. It's not expensive to 
buy industry standard ready to use frames.


Think of some drinking glasses 
with logos on them.  (Now, I know those are fired onto the glass, so 
even more durable.)  I have doubts some kind of ink that could be 
printed by a print head could be that durable.


If you want to print good panels, you need the right inks. Those are not 
cheap, often 2 component, always solvent based. Then you need a printing 
table with precision adjustment. Good luck in the basement!


Doing a multi colour silkscreen front panel is usually beyond what you 
do in a basement. It can be done only if you are really into it.


Between low density PCBs and a properly printed pdp8 front panel... 
WORLDS!!!


:-)

Re: Front Panels - Follow up

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jun 14, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> Silkscreened inks are REALLY durable!  Think of some drinking glasses with 
> logos on them.  (Now, I know those are fired onto the glass, so even more 
> durable.)  I have doubts some kind of ink that could be printed by a print 
> head could be that durable.

There's a difference between $100 home printers and commercial type ink jet 
printers.  For example, billboards are often made on inkjet printers, as are 
the fancy billboard type graphics that are put on cars and trucks.  Banners for 
public events, ditto.  Even some fairly modest size printers can print on 
suitable rigid materials.  Epson is one example of a company that makes a range 
of printers in many sizes, with a number of different types of ink or pigment 
choices.

paul

Re: Front Panels - Follow up

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 06/14/2017 01:42 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:

Hi

We are ok for now but for future and as yet not 
designed panels I can still draw them. (I'm old but not 
that old)


However with modern technology there has to be a 
multi-pass printer that can print on perspex (plexiglass) 
and closely simulate silk screening


My goal is to be able to keep a stock of blanks and print 
to order.


Could everybody keep an eye open for such devices (exclude 
those with excessive price tags and silly ink costs)


Rod

Silkscreen is actually pretty low-tech.  Anybody can do it 
in their basement.  (I made a large volume of low-density 
circuit boards a long time ago using silk-screen resist for 
etching.)  One advantage of doing it at home is you can just 
archive the silkscreens, and print one or two panels at a 
time.  The professionals recycle the screens after each 
batch because they don't have room to store them.


Maybe  your silkscreen provider would be willing to make 
your master artwork, or even process the whole silkscreen 
and give it to you, letting you store and print the screens 
to panels as they are requested.


You would need to make up a printing frame.  This is quite 
simple, a piece of plywood with some registration pins and a 
couple hinges. There are special hinge/clamp pieces that are 
made for silkscreen frames.  Then, you need the inks and 
squeegees, all pretty standard items.


Silkscreened inks are REALLY durable!  Think of some 
drinking glasses with logos on them.  (Now, I know those are 
fired onto the glass, so even more durable.)  I have doubts 
some kind of ink that could be printed by a print head could 
be that durable.


Jon

Re: Electronic Systems TRS-80 Serial I/O Board?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Brent Hilpert

>> The trimpot on the board says to me that the clock is most likely a
>> simple RC affair.

> There's a 7493 (4-bit counter) on the board as well, which looks to
> have connections to the dip switches beside it, in all likelihood the
> baud rate divider and rate selection

Yes; but the trim pot is also there because one has to set the basic clock to
one of two values, depending on whether one wants the 150/.../2400
selections, or the 110/etc selections; one has to set it to 26 usec for the
former, and 35.5 usec for the latter.

So drift would have been an issue, but not initial component values...

Noel

Re: DEC archives

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2017-06-14 3:14 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:

On 2017-06-13 23:40, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote:

In case you hadn't heard, the DEC archives at CHM are available and
here's
the PDF:

http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/finding-aids/102733963-DEC/102733963-DEC.pdf



Really hope it will all be scanned in one day. At least all technical
documentation ...




Definitely. A thousand boxes are not at all accessible.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4a/2a/f1/4a2af17f72f8c850e092ae545074ff56.jpg


--Toby
*glances around at the boxes of books and doc in his apartment, for 
scanning one day*

Re: DEC MINC in center Germany -- Mincbasic and RT11 disk

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

Images for an RX02 MINC are available on bitsavers, at
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/bits/DEC/pdp11/floppyimages/minc/rx02.
 Based on the "readme", it looks like I provided the RX02 images.

There are some additional MINC related RX01 images in the .../rx01
folder, as well.

Note that these images include a "dummy" track 0 so that they will work
under SimH.  You should skip track 0 when you load them onto a real
floppy.  As far as I know, DEC operating systems did not use track 0.
(Block 0 is on track 1).

I booted my copy of BA-H106D-BC (which is for an 11/03 based MINC) under
SimH, and it said:

sim> boot ry0

MINC BASIC/03 V2.0 System Distribution Disk

This disk can only be duplicated, not used.
Do you wish to duplicate this disk (Y or N) ?


JRJ


On 6/14/2017 2:40 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote:
> +1, please!
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens 
> via cctalk
> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:19 AM
> To: Jörg Hoppe via cctalk
> Subject: Re: DEC MINC in center Germany
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/10/2017 1:29 AM, Jörg Hoppe via cctalk wrote:
>> I like to point you to this DEC MINC-11:
>>
>> http://www.ebay.de/itm/112435553232
>>
>> Its a non-profit offer, we just need the space.
>>
>> best,
>> Joerg
> 
> Is it possible to get a copy of the Mincbasic and RT11 disk? willing to 
> pay to get it for our Mincs.
> 
> thanks
> Jim
> 
> 

Re: Front Panels - Follow up

[Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk]

On 14.06.2017 11:04, Peter Corlett via cctalk wr

This is perhaps an obvious question, but have you asked a professional printer
for advice? They are likely to offer to silk-screen onto Perspex for you at a
price and quality you're unlikely to manage yourself.


AFAIK he has had the boards perfectly silk-screened. But now it's about 
small batch and saving money. Silkscreen printing is NOT cheap for small 
to non existent series: You have to make a screen, adjust everything, 
get the ink mixed etc. The screen can be kept for a long time. But every 
time you want to use it, you need a certain amount of ink which will be 
lost. And the time for adjustment etc.
So silkscreen printing is the opposite of flexible. But it's fun to do 
and you can produce WONDERFUL results.


Regards
Philipp

Re: Front Panels - Follow up

[Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk]

Hi,

On 14.06.2017 10:41, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote:

How about adopting the "fallback" photorealistic approach that Oscar V. is 
using for the PiDP-8 panels?
Very bad idea. They just don't look good enough. And they can't meet the 
real colors.


Nothing you can print with a "normal" colour printer will compete with 
the real thing. Real silkscreen is more than "some color spread over the 
place". It's a piece of art in its own right. Just believe me :-)


I once had a problem with one of my lab8/e peripheral modules' (clock?) 
little module cover. The paint was flaky and only there in parts. I 
decided to redo that panel: Made a scan, repaired it, vectorized it, 
specified the closest Pantone color to the green and let it be printed 
with inkjet on adhesive film. In a professional shop. With colour 
management etc. Looks "usable" but a) the color is FAR off and b) If you 
come close than three feet, you immediately see that it's a fake.
In fact I already thought of redoing it with silkscreen. I only have to 
find the right colours (Already doing silkscreen on panels for money but 
only printing black and gold so far).


The DEC front panels are quite complex examples for silkscreen printing 
from both sides. I really like them.

And Rod's (right, or?) front panels are just... new originals.

So my idea is: Silkscreen or die. Colour printer is good enough for 
those pidp8-toys, but that's it.



Kind regards

Philipp

Re: Front Panels - Follow up

[Peter Corlett via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 07:42:44AM +0100, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> However with modern technology there has to be a multi-pass printer that can
> print on perspex (plexiglass) and closely simulate silk screening

This is perhaps an obvious question, but have you asked a professional printer
for advice? They are likely to offer to silk-screen onto Perspex for you at a
price and quality you're unlikely to manage yourself.

RE: Front Panels - Follow up

[Paul Birkel via cctalk]

How about adopting the "fallback" photorealistic approach that Oscar V. is 
using for the PiDP-8 panels?

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood 
via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 2:43 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Front Panels - Follow up

Hi

 We are ok for now but for future and as yet not designed panels I 
can still draw them. (I'm old but not that old)

However with modern technology there has to be a multi-pass printer that 
can print on perspex (plexiglass) and closely simulate silk screening

My goal is to be able to keep a stock of blanks and print to order.

Could everybody keep an eye open for such devices (exclude those with 
excessive price tags and silly ink costs)

Rod

-- 
There is no wrong or right
Nor black and white.
Just darknessand light

DEC MINC in center Germany -- Mincbasic and RT11 disk

[Paul Birkel via cctalk]

+1, please!

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens 
via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:19 AM
To: Jörg Hoppe via cctalk
Subject: Re: DEC MINC in center Germany



On 6/10/2017 1:29 AM, Jörg Hoppe via cctalk wrote:
> I like to point you to this DEC MINC-11:
>
> http://www.ebay.de/itm/112435553232
>
> Its a non-profit offer, we just need the space.
>
> best,
> Joerg

Is it possible to get a copy of the Mincbasic and RT11 disk? willing to 
pay to get it for our Mincs.

thanks
Jim

Re: DEC MINC in center Germany

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 6/10/2017 1:29 AM, Jörg Hoppe via cctalk wrote:

I like to point you to this DEC MINC-11:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/112435553232

Its a non-profit offer, we just need the space.

best,
Joerg


Is it possible to get a copy of the Mincbasic and RT11 disk? willing to 
pay to get it for our Mincs.


thanks
Jim

Re: DEC archives

[emanuel stiebler via cctalk]

On 2017-06-13 23:40, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote:

In case you hadn't heard, the DEC archives at CHM are available and here's
the PDF:

http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/finding-aids/102733963-DEC/102733963-DEC.pdf


Really hope it will all be scanned in one day. At least all technical 
documentation ...