Re: Message 4 on Computing from 1976

[Murray McCullough via cctalk]

"Message: 4
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 10:35:18 +1100
From: Nigel Williams 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"

Subject: Re: Computing from 1976
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 9:57 AM, william degnan via cctalk
 wrote:

>> what magazine?


https://books.google.com.au/books?id=7wAAMBAJ&pg=PA82
note.

Popular Science Dec-1976

***

Thanks Nigel. I apologize to all for not putting this magazine name in
my original note.

I've been thinking this New Year's eve about the world of classic
computing: How far has personal computing actually advanced? Not
talking about computing on the Net or such. Just plain computing! Or
is there such a thing the last day of 2017?

Happy computing for 2018.

Murray  :)

Re: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation?

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Dec 31, 2017, at 5:07 PM, J. David Bryan via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> You mentioned that you "tried putting the system console on a telnet port," 
> so you might have used the "SET CONSOLE TELNET" command (section 3.14 in 
> the user's guide).

Ah, yes, I think that's what I did.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation?

[J. David Bryan via cctalk]

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 14:03, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:

> That appears to work perfectly. I don't know what I did wrong when I tried
> that before.

You mentioned that you "tried putting the system console on a telnet port," 
so you might have used the "SET CONSOLE TELNET" command (section 3.14 in 
the user's guide).  This separates the system console from the simulation 
console, leaving the latter attached to the initiating window.  But you 
still have to interrupt simulation with CTRL+E (at the simulation console) 
to enter the ATTACH command.

The "SET REMOTE TELNET" command, by contrast, connects a second, limited 
simulation console in parallel with the original simulation console.  
Commands entered at the remote console are performed internally by stopping 
the simulation, executing the command, and then resuming.  The simulator 
still pauses to execute the command, but only for the minimum time 
necessary.


> Thanks! 

You're welcome.

  -- Dave

Re: DEC quad board rack

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Michael Zahorik

> a dozen or so spare boards for my PDP8E. I was wondering about how to
> store them. Some guys recommend some poly bags, others say it is
> important to protect against humidity. ... have you had any failures
> while in storage?

Well, i) most of my boards had been in uncertain storage for a long time
before they got to me, and I've only tested a fraction of them, so if I tried
one now, and it had an issue, I wouldn't know when (i.e. under which storage
regime) it happened - some have shown failures, but I think they all happened
before they got to me; ii) some of the failures we see (e.g. PROM's losing
their programming) are known to happen via various time-related processes,
not storage condition; and iii) I'm not a hardware person, but even then,
you'd want someone with expertise in failures, which is not common.

But, having said that, these are my 'common-sense' rules for storage: i) bags
aren't critical (especially for older stuff, which is generally bipolar, not
CMOS, and therefore not very sensitive to static), ii) high humidity is not
good, as you can get corrosion on chip leads (I've seen a few where the leads
were so corroded they came off)- but very low humidity can be an issue, if
you have CMOS, as it's more static-friendly (as Dave Bridgham found out the
hard way in his lab); iii) large-amplitude temperature cycles are not good,
as thermally-induced contraction and expansion probably aren't good; and
avoiding very high, and very low temperatures (even if constant) is probably
better for long-term health.

Noel

RE: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists

[Lyndon Nerenberg via cctalk]

Ok well I have checked and it looks like Lyndon is on the yahoo MTS list,
but his mail supplier may be filing as spam.


Umm ... his email supplier is him.  I've been running my own mail servers 
since the early 1980s.  If anything is getting bounced, it's because my 
email servers brand the content (not list) as spam, no better or worse 
then they brand any other traffic.  (Hint: spamassassin and xbl.)


--lyndon

RE: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

Ok well I have checked and it looks like Lyndon is on the yahoo MTS list,
but his mail supplier may be filing as spam.

Dave

> -Original Message-
> From: Lyndon Nerenberg [mailto:lyn...@orthanc.ca]
> Sent: 01 January 2018 00:13
> To: Dave Wade 
> Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> 
> Subject: RE: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists
> 
> > Lyndon,
> > Seeing as the folks who set up the original distribution are on the
> > Yahoo list it's the best place to ask questions.  I assume you don't
> > want to set up a Yahoo account? Facebook perhaps?
> 
> I did fight my way thought the Yahoo interface to get onto at least one of
the
> MTS groups via the mailing list interface.  But after falling off that a
couple of
> times, for unknown reasons, I gave up.  And as I mentioned, the Yahoo
> Groups web interface is just too horrible to contemplate.
> 
> And no, I don't do Facebook, either.  But that wouldn't make a difference
in
> this case.
> 
> I pine for the simplicity of mailing lists.  Then again, Yahoo, as
co-instigators of
> DMARC, are ensuring the end of mailing lists as we've known and loved them
> for the past three decades.
> 
> --lyndon

RE: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists

[Lyndon Nerenberg via cctalk]

Lyndon,
Seeing as the folks who set up the original distribution are on the Yahoo
list it's the best place to ask questions.  I assume you don't want to set
up a Yahoo account? Facebook perhaps?


I did fight my way thought the Yahoo interface to get onto at least one of 
the MTS groups via the mailing list interface.  But after falling off that 
a couple of times, for unknown reasons, I gave up.  And as I mentioned, 
the Yahoo Groups web interface is just too horrible to contemplate.


And no, I don't do Facebook, either.  But that wouldn't make a difference 
in this case.


I pine for the simplicity of mailing lists.  Then again, Yahoo, as 
co-instigators of DMARC, are ensuring the end of mailing lists as we've 
known and loved them for the past three decades.


--lyndon

Re: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation?

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Dec 31, 2017, at 14:10, william degnan  wrote:
> 
> I thought you set all devices you planned to use "online" so you could mount 
> them later?  I don't simh vax much so thanks for the correction as to the 
> procedure.  I mostly do pdp8 or pdp11 stuff, or esoteric hardware.
> 
> 

That's what I'd generally do for things like fixed disks. But in normal use of, 
say, a VAX running VMS, you'll want to be able to change tapes without 
rebooting the whole system in order to restart SIMH with a different 
configuration file. Even on a simulated PDP-11 running RT-11, you might want to 
swap out simulated floppies in one of the RX02 drives, for example.

Pausing a simulated PDP-11 running RT-11 momentarily to attach a different 
image isn't a big deal, because the system was probably sitting idle, anyway. 
But halting a VAX that's serving as a DECnet area router or a cluster disk 
server just to swap a tape or disk pack is not ideal.

Anyway, the remote console feature appears to do exactly what I want. Yay!

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X mailto:n...@nf6x.net>>
http://www.nf6x.net/ 

Re: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

Typically you need to have devices online so the OS will see them at startup.  
But for removable media devices (tapes and many disks) you may want to mount 
the media (image files) later on, and switch them at runtime, exactly as you 
would do with disk packs or tape reels on a real computer.

paul

> On Dec 31, 2017, at 5:10 PM, william degnan via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> I thought you set all devices you planned to use "online" so you could
> mount them later?  I don't simh vax much so thanks for the correction as to
> the procedure.  I mostly do pdp8 or pdp11 stuff, or esoteric hardware.
> 
> Bill Degnan

Re: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation?

[william degnan via cctalk]

I thought you set all devices you planned to use "online" so you could
mount them later?  I don't simh vax much so thanks for the correction as to
the procedure.  I mostly do pdp8 or pdp11 stuff, or esoteric hardware.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Dec 31, 2017 5:03 PM, "Mark J. Blair via cctalk" 
wrote:

>
> > On Dec 31, 2017, at 13:52, J. David Bryan  wrote:
> >
> > See section 3.15, "Remote Console" in the SIMH User's Guide.  The "SET
> > REMOTE TELNET" command will allow you to attach and detach while the
> > simulator is running.
>
> That appears to work perfectly. I don't know what I did wrong when I tried
> that before. Thanks!
>
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

Re: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation?

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Dec 31, 2017, at 13:52, J. David Bryan  wrote:
> 
> See section 3.15, "Remote Console" in the SIMH User's Guide.  The "SET 
> REMOTE TELNET" command will allow you to attach and detach while the 
> simulator is running.

That appears to work perfectly. I don't know what I did wrong when I tried that 
before. Thanks!


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation?

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Dec 31, 2017, at 13:47, william degnan  wrote:
> 
> Yes, but you were not able to attach in your startup script?  That's when to 
> do it.
> 


It's common practice, and frequently a necessity, to mount media such as tapes 
without rebooting the machine they're being mounted on.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X mailto:n...@nf6x.net>>
http://www.nf6x.net/ 

Re: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation?

[J. David Bryan via cctalk]

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 12:58, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:

> Is there any way to attach/detach media images in SIMH without halting the
> simulation?

See section 3.15, "Remote Console" in the SIMH User's Guide.  The "SET 
REMOTE TELNET" command will allow you to attach and detach while the 
simulator is running.

  -- Dave

Re: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation?

[william degnan via cctalk]

Yes, but you were not able to attach in your startup script?  That's when
to do it.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Dec 31, 2017 3:59 PM, "Mark J. Blair via cctalk" 
wrote:

> I've been experimenting with the SIMH VAX simulators a lot lately. The
> only way I know of to mount a tape, disk pack, CD-ROM, etc. after boot time
> is to halt the simulation with ^e to get to the SIMH command prompt, ATTACH
> the desired image, and then resume the simulation with CONTINUE.
>
> Is there any way to attach/detach media images in SIMH without halting the
> simulation? I've tried putting the system console on a telnet port so it
> doesn't occupy SIMH's controlling terminal, and I found that it's still
> necessary to halt the simulation to get back to the SIMH command prompt.
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation?

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

I've been experimenting with the SIMH VAX simulators a lot lately. The only way 
I know of to mount a tape, disk pack, CD-ROM, etc. after boot time is to halt 
the simulation with ^e to get to the SIMH command prompt, ATTACH the desired 
image, and then resume the simulation with CONTINUE.

Is there any way to attach/detach media images in SIMH without halting the 
simulation? I've tried putting the system console on a telnet port so it 
doesn't occupy SIMH's controlling terminal, and I found that it's still 
necessary to halt the simulation to get back to the SIMH command prompt.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

VAX/VMS & IBM 360 manuals from mid 1980s

[Stan Sieler via cctalk]

Hi,

A friend, probably in Ohio, tells me his father has 3 boxes (about 150
pounds)
of manuals for VAX/VMS and IBM 360 from the mid 1980s.

If anyone's interested in following up, email me and I'll send you the
contact info.

thanks, and Happy New Year!

Stan Sieler

Re: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting

[Adrian Graham via cctalk]

> On 31 Dec 2017, at 20:09, Rob Jarratt via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> For some time now I have had a couple of ZX Spectrum machines. Neither
> works, each has a different problem. Today I got one of them out for another
> look. The problem with it is that it seems to constantly reset itself, you
> see the copyright screen briefly and then it disappears (the TV screen shows
> the usual "snow" when there is no signal). It just cycles round doing this.

What is your PSU outputting? Sounds like it’s *just* borderline to feed the 
7805 on input. At least the 12v coil is OK so that’s one less thing to worry 
about - if it wasn’t you’d not get a copyright screen at all. Remember the PSU 
is centre negative, it should be putting out over 12VDC.

> My thoughts are that this must either be a bad Z80 CPU or a bad ROM. Neither
> is socketed and I am reluctant to desolder ICs unless I really have to as
> there is always a risk of damage to the board.

If either of those two are bad you’ll get static bars on the screen, they won’t 
cause a reset like you’re seeing. I’d be checking power first.

Cheers

—
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards

Re: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 12/31/2017 02:09 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:

For some time now I have had a couple of ZX Spectrum machines. Neither
works, each has a different problem. Today I got one of them out for another
look. The problem with it is that it seems to constantly reset itself, you
see the copyright screen briefly and then it disappears (the TV screen shows
the usual "snow" when there is no signal). It just cycles round doing this.

  


I put a logic analyser on it as well as a scope. The CPU Reset pin looks
fine, it goes high and stays high.

  


The logic analyser shows that it is happily reading code from the ROM during
the boot sequence and it will suddenly start fetching instructions from
address 0 again, this appears to be somewhat random. I don't have a lot of
experience with logic analysers, and I have found that some pod/probe
combinations cause the machine not to work at all, so the logic analyser is
not, unfortunately, above suspicion. However the behaviour I see appears
consistent with what the logic analyser is telling me.

  


My thoughts are that this must either be a bad Z80 CPU or a bad ROM. Neither
is socketed and I am reluctant to desolder ICs unless I really have to as
there is always a risk of damage to the board.

  


Has anyone seen a similar problem before? Could this indeed be the CPU or
the ROM, or could there be a different cause?


It COULD be, but then it has to do a LOT of things right to 
get the copyright message on the screen.
I'd be more likely to suspect a bad location or region of 
the ROM than the CPU.  Or, it could be noisy power
rails (maybe bad capacitors degrading) or some other 
component in the address or data paths that
is no longer holding good logic levels or speeds or 
something like that.


Jon

RE: Computing from 1976

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt
> via cctalk
> Sent: 31 December 2017 20:11
> To: '. .' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts' 
> Subject: RE: Computing from 1976
> 
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of . . via
> cctalk
> > Sent: 31 December 2017 18:24
> > Cc: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> > Subject: Re: Computing from 1976
> >
> > Is there a good place to hunt or purchase DEC/VAX stuff here in Europe
> please/
> >
> 
> Ebay :-(, Vintage Computer Forum and just watching out for emails to this 
> list.
> 

Also 

DEC TEC list http://dectec.info/
Usenet group comp.os.vms
VCF Forums http://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum.php -> e.g. 
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61297-Vaxstation-3200-in-Bonn-Cologne-area-Germany-(Pickup-only)&highlight=vax+3200

http://www.retrocomputermuseum.co.uk/forum/

> 
> > Thanks
> >
> > PS: Used to work for DEC in Canada :)
> 

Dave
P.S. what sort of VAX were you after? 

RE: Computing from 1976

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of . . via 
> cctalk
> Sent: 31 December 2017 18:24
> Cc: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Computing from 1976
> 
> Is there a good place to hunt or purchase DEC/VAX stuff here in Europe please/
> 

Ebay :-(, Vintage Computer Forum and just watching out for emails to this list.


> Thanks
> 
> PS: Used to work for DEC in Canada :)

ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

For some time now I have had a couple of ZX Spectrum machines. Neither
works, each has a different problem. Today I got one of them out for another
look. The problem with it is that it seems to constantly reset itself, you
see the copyright screen briefly and then it disappears (the TV screen shows
the usual "snow" when there is no signal). It just cycles round doing this.

 

I put a logic analyser on it as well as a scope. The CPU Reset pin looks
fine, it goes high and stays high.

 

The logic analyser shows that it is happily reading code from the ROM during
the boot sequence and it will suddenly start fetching instructions from
address 0 again, this appears to be somewhat random. I don't have a lot of
experience with logic analysers, and I have found that some pod/probe
combinations cause the machine not to work at all, so the logic analyser is
not, unfortunately, above suspicion. However the behaviour I see appears
consistent with what the logic analyser is telling me.

 

My thoughts are that this must either be a bad Z80 CPU or a bad ROM. Neither
is socketed and I am reluctant to desolder ICs unless I really have to as
there is always a risk of damage to the board.

 

Has anyone seen a similar problem before? Could this indeed be the CPU or
the ROM, or could there be a different cause?

 

Regards

 

Rob

Re: Computing from 1976

[. . via cctalk]

Is there a good place to hunt or purchase DEC/VAX stuff here in Europe please/

Thanks

PS: Used to work for DEC in Canada :)

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Computing from 1976
> Local Time: December 31, 2017 7:20 PM
> UTC Time: December 31, 2017 6:20 PM
> From: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
>
> Hi,
>
> I was working 1976 as a volunteer at a research center near Vienna in
> Austria writing FORTRAN programs on a PDP8a. We also have a PDP8/e there.
> Now I am collecting DEC stuff.
>
> Happy new year 
>
> Gerhard
>
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von
> cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. Dezember 2017 19:00
> An: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 30
>
> Send cctalk mailing list submissions to
> cctalk@classiccmp.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> cctalk-ow...@classiccmp.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
> "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..."

Computing from 1976

[Gerhard Kreuzer via cctalk]

Hi,

I was working 1976 as a volunteer at a research center near Vienna in
Austria writing FORTRAN programs on a PDP8a. We also have a PDP8/e there.
Now I am collecting DEC stuff.

Happy new year 

Gerhard

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von
cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org
Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. Dezember 2017 19:00
An: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 30

Send cctalk mailing list submissions to
cctalk@classiccmp.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org

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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of cctalk digest..."

Re: Slightly Meta: Travel tips for people traveling internationally with vintage equipment?

[Tony Aiuto via cctalk]

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 6:10 AM, Michael Brutman via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I'm actively working on show planning for VCF PNW and I'm noticing that we
> have a few international travelers planning to attend and exhibit their
> machines/projects.  I'd like to put together a FAQ for the logistics of
> traveling with vintage equipment across the US border.  If you have ideas
> please let me know.
>
> For example: Should I plan on providing letters in advance stating that a
> person is a registered exhibitor at our show, including details like the
> show location, dates, times, and contact information in case there is a
> question about why somebody is carrying strange looking equipment into the
> US?  Is there any sort of paperwork or customs form needed even if nothing
> is being sold or left in the US?  Any other gotchas to look for?
>


All the documentation you can provide can only help.

I don't have much experience with computing equipment, but I have seen
horrible things
happen to other unusual electronics.
Specifically, I used to go to a lot of fencing meets when my daughter was
competitive.
The armorers (the staff who check the weapons for safety and electrical
soundness) generally
make their own test rigs - a few sockets, some LEDs, an meter or two. Their
construction is
a point of pride. Several times they had packed them in checked luggage and
arrived to find
their equipment opened up, with wires to batteries snipped. It's been 10
years since then,
so maybe the TSA has realized that randomly snipping wires in a device you
don't undertand
is a brain-dead idea, but you never know.

I would pack anything going on a plane, domestic or international, with all
or any of
- letters about exhibition
- a copy of a manual
- bill of sale
- schematics
- owners contact information


>
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>

Re: RT-11 idle light pattern

[Charles Anthony via cctalk]

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> > Stranger still is the "fancy" lights in RSTS ... "Fancy" because it
> > produces a rotating pattern not just in the data lights which is
> easy,
> > but also in the address lights. It runs in supervisor mode
>
> Ah; it must busy loop at loops spread across the address space? Clever!
> (Perhaps using the mapping hardware so that it doesn't use too much
> _actual_
> memory.) Is the source available?
>
>
I'm not familiar with that memory mapping hardware so this is idle
speculation: mapping every virtual page  to the same physical page and the
idle loop instead of "jump to top of loop" does "jump to top of loop + page
size"

-- Charles

Re: DEC quad board rack

[Michael Zahorik via cctalk]

Noel, I recently I picked up a dozen or so spare boards for my PDP8E. I was 
wondering about how to store them. Some guys recommend some poly bags, others 
say it is important to protect against humidity. You sure have a boat load of 
cards, have you had any failures while in storage? Thanks
Mike Zahorik


  From: Noel Chiappa via cctalk 
 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
 Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 8:32 AM
 Subject: DEC quad board rack
   
So, I've been making wooden racks to hold a lot of my DEC boards, and I've
finally come up with a nice design for one, which holds quad boards:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/QuadRack.jpg

which holds them vertically.

It's much better than the dual rack next to it, which holds them
horizontally, which has the issue that the distance between the sides needs
to be absolutely perfect, otherwise the boards tend to drop out of their
slots. With the boards held vertically, it's much less sensitive.

If anyone's interested in building one, I can whip up a drawing. (Note that
the slots are offset slightly to the left because one needs different
clearances for the solder and component sides.)

The one shown uses 3 pieces of 1"x8"x6' (not sure what that translates to in
that new-fangled French stuff :-). It would be tricky to make without a
radial-arm saw, though - although I suppose a router with a small bit could
be used, albeit tedious.

    Noel


   

Re: Computing from 1976

[dwight via cctalk]

One thing that is starting to hurt with larger use of memory is the ability to 
access and load such large blocks of memory.

I'm not saying that access speed haven't gone up but we are quickly reaching a 
wall, similar to the 4gig clock speed wall for the processors. Throwing more 
cache layers is of decreasing value. There are things that can be done but are 
not likely in the near future.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Peter Corlett via 
cctalk 
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 5:30:21 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Computing from 1976

On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 05:43:34PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, ben via cctalk wrote:
>> I find I want use computers less , 5+ minutes to boot something that then
>> needs to check the net. I use a all valve audio system and tubes are warmed
>> up and ready to go before my music app exits the splash screen.
> The "modern" computer is much faster, but it takes forever and a half before
> it is ready to use that speed.

I reckon if I did a side-by-side cold boot of ye olde Amiga 1000 into Workbench
to launch memacs versus firing up my Mac laptop and launching Emacs.app,
there'd be not much in it.

I also very rarely reboot my laptop. Close the lid, and it goes to sleep. Open
the lid -- and perhaps wait 5-10s if it had been asleep for long enough that it
decided to suspend-to-disk and needed to pull the memory image back in -- and
it's ready to continue where I left off.

> Why did anybody ever need more than 64K?

There's no *need*, just like there's no *need* for computers at all.

But since we have computers with multiple gigabytes of RAM, it makes little
sense to restrain one's use of them to a fraction of the capabilities, except
as an intellectual exercise.

Re: RT-11 idle light pattern

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Dec 31, 2017, at 10:21 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
>> 
>> Ah; it must busy loop at loops spread across the address space? Clever!
>> (Perhaps using the mapping hardware so that it doesn't use too much _actual_
>> memory.) Is the source available?
> 
> Correct, it uses the MMU so it only needs 64 bytes of table space to get the 
> low order bits right.  See attached.

Ok, so the list stripped the attachment.  Try it this way.

paul

.INCLUDE /CMN:COMMON/
TITLE   LIGHTS,,0A,10-MAY-91,MHB/ABC/WBN

;
;   COPYRIGHT (c) 1974, 1991 BY
;   DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION, MAYNARD, MASS.
;
; THIS SOFTWARE IS FURNISHED UNDER A LICENSE AND MAY BE USED AND  COPIED
; ONLY  IN  ACCORDANCE  WITH  THE  TERMS  OF  SUCH  LICENSE AND WITH THE
; INCLUSION OF THE ABOVE COPYRIGHT NOTICE.  THIS SOFTWARE OR  ANY  OTHER
; COPIES  THEREOF MAY NOT BE PROVIDED OR OTHERWISE MADE AVAILABLE TO ANY
; OTHER PERSON.  NO TITLE TO AND OWNERSHIP OF  THE  SOFTWARE  IS  HEREBY
; TRANSFERRED.
;
; THE INFORMATION IN THIS SOFTWARE IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE  WITHOUT  NOTICE
; AND  SHOULD  NOT  BE  CONSTRUED  AS  A COMMITMENT BY DIGITAL EQUIPMENT
; CORPORATION.
;
; DIGITAL ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE USE  OR  RELIABILITY  OF ITS
; SOFTWARE ON EQUIPMENT WHICH IS NOT SUPPLIED BY DIGITAL.
;
.SBTTL EDIT HISTORY FOR LIGHTS
;+
;
;  000  RRF  06-MAR-81  CREATION - COPIED FROM V7.0-07
;
;-
DEFORG  LIGHTS

.SBTTL  A FANCY NULL JOB

; NEEDED DEFINITIONS

SISDR0  =   172200  ;SUPERVISOR INSTRUCTION DESC REG 0
SISAR0  =   172240  ;SUPERVISOR INSTRUCTION ADDR REG 0

PS  =   16  ;PROCESSOR STATUS

ORG NULJOB

; INITIAL ENTRY POINT

NULJOB: BIT #004000,@#PS;DO WE HAVE SUPERVISOR MODE (2 REG SETS)?
BNE 30$ ;YES, DO IT FANCY...

; THE SIMPLE NULL JOB

10$:MOV R2,R1   ;RELOAD THE WAIT COUNTER
20$:WAIT;DISPLAY THE LIGHTS (R0) A WHILE
SOB R1,20$  ;KEEP WAITING
ROL R0  ;ELSE SHIFT PATTERN 1 PLACE LEFT
BR  10$ ; AND AROUND AGAIN...

; FANCY NULL JOB SETUP

30$:MOV #176000,R3  ;PRE-SET THE MEM ADR LIGHT PATTERN
MOV (PC)+,R4;GET DESC REG VALUE FOR
 .BYTE  4!2,128.-1  ;   R/W AND 4K
MOV #SISDR0,R5  ;POINT TO SUPERVISOR DESC REGS
MOV R4,(R5)+;LOAD SISDR0 WITH 4K AND R/W
MOV R4,(R5)+;LOAD SISDR1 WITH 4K AND R/W
MOV R4,(R5)+;LOAD SISDR2 WITH 4K AND R/W
MOV R4,(R5)+;LOAD SISDR3 WITH 4K AND R/W
MOV #177600,SISAR0-SISDR0(R5) ;LOAD PAR4 FOR THE I/O PAGE
MOV R4,(R5)+;LOAD SISDR4 WITH 4K AND R/W
MOV #40$,R1 ;FORM A MMU ADDRESS
ASH #-6,R1  ; THAT WILL MAP OUR CODE
BIC #^C<001777>,R1  ;  IN SUPERVISOR MODE
MOV R1,SISAR0-SISDR0(R5) ;LOAD MMU ADDRESS FOR PAR5 (CODE)
MOV (PC)+,(R5)+ ;LOAD SISDR5 WITH
 .BYTE  2,128.-1;   R-O AND 4K
CLR (R5)+   ;LOAD SISDR6 WITH "ABORT"
MOV R4,(R5)+;LOAD SISDR7 WITH 4K AND R/W
MOV #000340,@#PS;;;WE CAN'T AFFORD AN INTERRUPT HERE
MOV #054040,-(SP)   ;;;NEW PS OF SUPERVISOR MODE @ PR1
MOV #40$,-(SP)  ;;;NEW PC OF OUR ROUTINE
BIC #^C<77>,(SP);;; CORRECTED FOR RUNNING
BIS #12,(SP);;;  OUT OF PAR5
RTI ;;;DROP INTO SUPERVISOR MODE!!!
; THE FANCY NULL JOB

40$:MOV R3,R1   ;COPY PATTERN FOR MEM ADR LIGHTS
BIC #^C<06>,R1  ; AND ENSURE AN HONEST ADDRESS
CLR R4  ;CLEAR A HIGH ORDER
MOV R1,R5   ; AND SET LOW ORDER AS ADDRESS
ASHC#3,R4   ;EXTRACT THE APR #
ASL R4  ; AND FORM APR # TIMES 2
ADD #SISAR0-16+10,R4 ;FIND PAR TO USE (I/O PAGE = PAR4)
ASH #-3,R5  ;CORRECT THE VIRTUAL ADDRESS
BIC #^C<017700>,R5  ; AND ISOLATE OFFSET WITHIN PAR
NEG R5  ;SUBTRACT OFFSET WITHIN PAR
ADD #70$,R5 ; FROM OUR WORK TABLE
ASH #-6,R5  ;FIND THAT AS A MMU ADDRESS
BIC #^C<001777>,R5  ; WITH NO SIGN EXTENSION
MOV R5,(R4) ;LOAD CORRECT PAR WITH CORRECT ADDRESS
BIT R4,#16  ;ARE WE USING PAR0?
BNE 50$ ;NO
ADD #20,R4  ;YES, CORRECT FOR PAR7 NEXT
50$:SUB #200,R5 ;GO BACKWARDS 4K
MOV R5,-(R4); AND LOAD NEXT LOWER PAR WITH THAT
MOV (PC)+,(R1)  ;LOAD THE RETURN INSTRUCTION
JMP (R4); WHICH IS JUMP THROUGH R4
MOV (PC)+,-(R1) ;LOAD THE WAITING INSTRUCTION
WAIT; WHICH IS WAIT
M

Re: RT-11 idle light pattern

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Dec 31, 2017, at 9:41 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Paul Koning
> 
>> RSTS-11 V4, which had a major reliability problem ... As part of trying
>> to keep the customer placated, DEC supplied full OS sources, 5
>> dectapes. ... We printed them ... I still have copies of those files.
> 
> Is that version available online? If not, maybe an OCR project?

I don't know; if not I should dig through mine and submit it to Bitsavers.  I 
don't have the original DECtapes, but rather a copy of the files on magtape, so 
metadata is largely missing but the actual files should be there.

> (Although I know other versions of RSTS-11 are available, so maybe it's not
> rare enough to make the tedium of OCR worth it. That has been used on a
> number of systems; notably CTSS, but also the IMP code and the Apollo
> Guidance Computer, that I know of. I'm currently looking into getting an
> early version of MERT, and that may also come down to OCR - if we're lucky!)
> 
> 
>> Stranger still is the "fancy" lights in RSTS ... "Fancy" because it
>> produces a rotating pattern not just in the data lights which is easy,
>> but also in the address lights. It runs in supervisor mode
> 
> Ah; it must busy loop at loops spread across the address space? Clever!
> (Perhaps using the mapping hardware so that it doesn't use too much _actual_
> memory.) Is the source available?

Correct, it uses the MMU so it only needs 64 bytes of table space to get the 
low order bits right.  See attached.

paul

RE: DEC quad board rack

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
> Chiappa via cctalk
> Sent: 31 December 2017 14:32
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: DEC quad board rack
> 
> So, I've been making wooden racks to hold a lot of my DEC boards, and I've
> finally come up with a nice design for one, which holds quad boards:
> 
>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/QuadRack.jpg
> 
> which holds them vertically.
> 
> It's much better than the dual rack next to it, which holds them
horizontally,
> which has the issue that the distance between the sides needs to be
absolutely
> perfect, otherwise the boards tend to drop out of their slots. With the
boards
> held vertically, it's much less sensitive.
> 
> If anyone's interested in building one, I can whip up a drawing. (Note
that the
> slots are offset slightly to the left because one needs different
clearances for
> the solder and component sides.)
> 
> The one shown uses 3 pieces of 1"x8"x6' (not sure what that translates to
in
> that new-fangled French stuff :-). It would be tricky to make without a
radial-
> arm saw, though - although I suppose a router with a small bit could be
used,
> albeit tedious.
> 


That is a really nice idea if you have a lot of boards. I don't have quite
that many, but I do have a few. I am going to be re-organising myself soon,
so I may do something like this. Thanks for the idea.

Regards

Rob

Re: RT-11 idle light pattern

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Paul Koning

> RSTS-11 V4, which had a major reliability problem ... As part of trying
> to keep the customer placated, DEC supplied full OS sources, 5
> dectapes. ... We printed them ... I still have copies of those files.

Is that version available online? If not, maybe an OCR project?

(Although I know other versions of RSTS-11 are available, so maybe it's not
rare enough to make the tedium of OCR worth it. That has been used on a
number of systems; notably CTSS, but also the IMP code and the Apollo
Guidance Computer, that I know of. I'm currently looking into getting an
early version of MERT, and that may also come down to OCR - if we're lucky!)


> Stranger still is the "fancy" lights in RSTS ... "Fancy" because it
> produces a rotating pattern not just in the data lights which is easy,
> but also in the address lights. It runs in supervisor mode

Ah; it must busy loop at loops spread across the address space? Clever!
(Perhaps using the mapping hardware so that it doesn't use too much _actual_
memory.) Is the source available?

Noel

Re: DEC quad board rack

[emanuel stiebler via cctalk]

On 2017-12-31 07:32, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

So, I've been making wooden racks to hold a lot of my DEC boards, and I've
finally come up with a nice design for one, which holds quad boards:

   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/QuadRack.jpg

which holds them vertically.


Nice!
However, I have the double and quad boards simply in a file cabinet, and 
this way, they don't get dusty.


But interesting idea, to get the hex-boards organized ...


The one shown uses 3 pieces of 1"x8"x6' (not sure what that translates to in
that new-fangled French stuff :-). It would be tricky to make without a
radial-arm saw, though - although I suppose a router with a small bit could
be used, albeit tedious.


Probably somebody with the fancy 3d printer could make plates, which 
have the groves in the right distances?


something like

^ ^  ^ ^   ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^



Cheers

DEC quad board rack

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

So, I've been making wooden racks to hold a lot of my DEC boards, and I've
finally come up with a nice design for one, which holds quad boards:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/QuadRack.jpg

which holds them vertically.

It's much better than the dual rack next to it, which holds them
horizontally, which has the issue that the distance between the sides needs
to be absolutely perfect, otherwise the boards tend to drop out of their
slots. With the boards held vertically, it's much less sensitive.

If anyone's interested in building one, I can whip up a drawing. (Note that
the slots are offset slightly to the left because one needs different
clearances for the solder and component sides.)

The one shown uses 3 pieces of 1"x8"x6' (not sure what that translates to in
that new-fangled French stuff :-). It would be tricky to make without a
radial-arm saw, though - although I suppose a router with a small bit could
be used, albeit tedious.

Noel

Re: Computing from 1976

[Peter Corlett via cctalk]

On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 05:43:34PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, ben via cctalk wrote:
>> I find I want use computers less , 5+ minutes to boot something that then
>> needs to check the net. I use a all valve audio system and tubes are warmed
>> up and ready to go before my music app exits the splash screen.
> The "modern" computer is much faster, but it takes forever and a half before
> it is ready to use that speed.

I reckon if I did a side-by-side cold boot of ye olde Amiga 1000 into Workbench
to launch memacs versus firing up my Mac laptop and launching Emacs.app,
there'd be not much in it.

I also very rarely reboot my laptop. Close the lid, and it goes to sleep. Open
the lid -- and perhaps wait 5-10s if it had been asleep for long enough that it
decided to suspend-to-disk and needed to pull the memory image back in -- and
it's ready to continue where I left off.

> Why did anybody ever need more than 64K?

There's no *need*, just like there's no *need* for computers at all.

But since we have computers with multiple gigabytes of RAM, it makes little
sense to restrain one's use of them to a fraction of the capabilities, except
as an intellectual exercise.

Re: Computing from 1976

[Peter Corlett via cctalk]

On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 02:55:10PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> OK, a little arithmetic exercise for you.
> (a 16C is nice for this, but hardly necessary)
> "Moore's Law", which was a prediction, not a "LAW", has often been mis-stated
> as predicting a doubling of speed/capacity every 18 months.

Newton's "laws" are also only an approximate prediction, but they got us to the
moon and back.

> 1) Figure out how many 18 month invtervals since then, and what 4k "should'
> have morphed into by now.

2017-1976 = 31; 41/1.5 = 82/3 = 27 + 1/3 doublings.

2**(27+1/3) = ~170M; 170M x 4K = ~645G of RAM.

My original guesstimate of that power calculation was 140M, but I don't trust
logarithms in my head and double-checked with a calculator. The calculation
error was at least less than the whole premise of the calculation :)

> 2) What did Gordon Moore actually say in 1965?

>From memory, it was that the *number of transistors* per die would double every
such-and-such period, which I think was initially two years. The Wiki Of A
Million Lies agrees.

> 3) How much is $500 of 1976 money worth now?

About $2,100, if you trust the US government's official statistics. I'd have
gone for $5k myself on the "add another zero every 40 years" rule of thumb that
applies to real-world goods rather than the fictional ones used by government
statisticians.

> 4) Consider how long it took to use a text editor to make a grocery shopping
> list in 1976.  How long does it take today?

Write it in Emacs and email it to my phone so I can consult it in the shop if
need be. No slower than it would have been in the 1970s, apart from that the
phone would have been bolted to my house, and how would one email to it anyway?

If I had to fight a modern printer to get a hardcopy to take, sod it, I'll just
write it out longhand instead. (This is what I usually do.)

> Does having the grocery list consist of pictures instead of words, with audio
> commentary, and maybe Smell-O-Vision (coming soon), improve the quality of
> life? How much does it help to be able to contact your refrigeratior and
> query its knowledge of its contents?

Let's take an arbitary example of taking a horrified look at the 2015 election
results, going "ugh" at Tory Britain, and upping sticks to another country
where one doesn't know the language. I can't think why that comes to mind...

That left me functionally illiterate until I picked up the rudiments of the
language, and pictures can be useful. My phone contains several apps which are
also helpful for learning Dutch, and doing OCR and machine-assisted translation
of the bits I've not learned yet.

I can text a message home and ask if there's something I need to buy as I'm
passing a supermarket. One doesn't need the fridge itself to be smart for the
communications technology to be useful. In the 1970s, I could have gone and
found a payphone, but a text message is less inconvenient for both parties than
a phone call.

Less useful, but still useful, is my phone's ability to give a local map and a
"you are here" pointer, and public transport times can be consulted. I say
less-useful, because these apps tend to be limited to providing a single (and
rarely optimal) solution to an immediate need and fail to provide an
understanding of the system in general. That's why I still prefer regular maps
and timetables, which are sadly becoming harder to get hold of.

But anyway, all of that computing power has definitely improved the quality of
life compared to trying to do the same thing in the 1970s.

> (Keep in mind, that although hardware expanded exponentially, according to
> Moore's Law, Software follows a corollary of Boyle's Law, and expands to
> fill the available space and use all of the available resources - how much
> can "modern" software do in 4K?, and how much is needed to boot the computer
> and run a "modern" text editor?)

On bare metal, you need 8K of page tables just to enable long mode on a modern
Intel CPU, so that's not going to fly.

The second question is a bit more difficult due to the vagaries of memory usage
on modern virtual memory operating systems. The VM I'm logged into to compose
this mail has 4GB of "RAM" (which itself is vulnerable to swapping at the whims
of the hypervisor) but the VM does a lot more than email, and reports it's
using about 1GB of the 4GB allocated to it.

My text editor has a nominal size (VSZ) of 144MB, but that number is misleading
as most of that is memory-mapped data which doesn't really count because I
don't use that functionality so it's never mapped in. VSZ hasn't been a
meaningful indicator of memory usage in decades, despite monitoring tools
continuing to display it. About 20MB *is* mapped in, and another 4MB is used as
heap, i.e. editor workspace. If the machine was *only* used for reading and
composing email, I could probably get away with 32-64MB.

OTOH, I'm paying €30/month to rent and host the bare metal hardware onto which
I've loaded several similar VM