Re: OT - Starting IT Training

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

dude go after ur cicsco way better pay

On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 12:06 AM, Kip Koon - The Computer Doc via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi My Friends,
>
> Just a quick message to let everybody know that I am starting IT Training
> Monday, January 8, 2018 to get the certifications I need.  When finished I
> plan to have my A+, N+ and S+ certifications.  For those unfamiliar with
> these certifications, this is paper work proving I have the knowledge to
> perform the tasks of a Computer, Network and Server Technician in that
> order.  These enable me to get the great jobs in IT that I am looking for.
> That is my plan.  Please keep me in your prayers.  This will be a lot of
> work, reading, labs etcetera.  In December 2018, I ought to be getting a
> great Christmas present!  :D
>
> I will be checking my email when I can.  Take care my friends.
>
>

OT - Starting IT Training

[Kip Koon - The Computer Doc via cctalk]

Hi My Friends,

Just a quick message to let everybody know that I am starting IT Training
Monday, January 8, 2018 to get the certifications I need.  When finished I
plan to have my A+, N+ and S+ certifications.  For those unfamiliar with
these certifications, this is paper work proving I have the knowledge to
perform the tasks of a Computer, Network and Server Technician in that
order.  These enable me to get the great jobs in IT that I am looking for.
That is my plan.  Please keep me in your prayers.  This will be a lot of
work, reading, labs etcetera.  In December 2018, I ought to be getting a
great Christmas present!  :D  

I will be checking my email when I can.  Take care my friends.  

Re: Spectre & Meltdown

[James B DiGriz via cctalk]

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 11:18:53 -0800
Rick Bensene via cctalk  wrote:

 Of course, update your OS as soon as updates are available,
> as patches (which will likely slow your system down) are forthcoming
> from Microsoft and various Linux trees. 
> 

You want to test those updates before you apply them to remote
production VM's. The latest CentOS 6.9 kernel update
(2.6.32-696.18.7.el6 64-bit, which addresses meltdown) is broken on at
least some Xen PV platforms and fails to boot. See
https://bugs.centos.org/view.php?id=14336. You can't even get into grub
from a remote console to select a working kernel. Well, you could set
"default x", in /etc/grub.conf, where x = working kernel, before you
update. Hindsight being 20/20.

jbdigriz

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 01/05/2018 01:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:

Hi,

I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow like 
to image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the contents 
of multiple floppies to
  make a single good one


Any possibility the 4331 can write to a floppy?  I know next 
to nothing of this hardware.  But, I know the VAX 11/780 
really well. You could make copies of its console floppy on 
that drive, once the OS was up.


Jon

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 01/05/2018 02:45 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
>
> IBM invented the 8" floppy disk format. Generally their disks follow the 
> standard 3740 format.  I would try that first.
> 
> https://ub.fnwi.uva.nl/computermuseum/diskettes.html
> 

I've got a pretty good pile of IBM 8" disks,from System/3 to
Displaywriter.  If you've got a PC hooked to a standard drive that can
handle FM recording, you're good with IMD and a few other packages.

If you've got any of the 8" "magazines", they open easily and the disks
are straightforward 8" floppies.

--Chuck

Re: R: Large discs

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 01/05/2018 02:37 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> I don't know how long YOU expect to live, but I don't think that I will
> last as long as a lot of my data (which FEW if ANY will want)   (But,
> I've asked my lawyer to place in my will, provisions for my collection
> of "alien" disks to go to Eric Smith and Al Kossow.  As well as
> authorizations for certain people to take whatever they want of my
> personal property)

I suppose that I should at least catalog my "alien" media--there's a lot
of it.  One of these days.  It's hard enough to keep the stuff roughly
alphabetized.

At any rate, the latest study I can find on the longevity of optical
media is this 2005 NIST paper:

https://www.nist.gov/publications/nistlibrary-congress-loc-optical-media-longevity-study

--Chuck

RE: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
> Sotomayor via cctalk
> Sent: 05 January 2018 19:53
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow
> like to image them so:
> a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
> b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the
> contents of multiple floppies to
>  make a single good one
> 
> These are all 8” diskettes.
> 
> The complicating factors in all of this are:
> a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
> b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
> c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
> d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
> 
> Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
> 

IBM invented the 8" floppy disk format. Generally their disks follow the 
standard 3740 format.  I would try that first.

https://ub.fnwi.uva.nl/computermuseum/diskettes.html


> Thanks.
> 
> TTFN - Guy

Dave

Re: R: Large discs

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Here's a government-(Canada) sponsored paper on the subject:
https://www.canada.ca/en/conservation-institute/services/conservation-preservation-publications/canadian-conservation-institute-notes/longevity-recordable-cds-dvds.html

In any case, my DVDs will last longer than I will.


I was unsure how to derive that from the paper.  It's a fascinating 
discussion of some of the issues, but I still haven't seen a chart that 
would give mean, median, nor mode (and/or any other measures of central 
tendency) of expected life the various products.


Of late, I have seen some worrying numbers, such as "shelf life of 
unrecorded DVDs is 3 to 5 years".



I don't know how long YOU expect to live, but I don't think that I will 
last as long as a lot of my data (which FEW if ANY will want)   (But, I've 
asked my lawyer to place in my will, provisions for my collection of 
"alien" disks to go to Eric Smith and Al Kossow.  As well as 
authorizations for certain people to take whatever they want of my 
personal property)

Re: R: Large discs

[ANDY HOLT via cctalk]

"Is there a form of machine readable data older than 150 years?"

Jacquard cards;
Morse recorder;
certain musical instrument programmes.

Also with modern scanners virtually any printed material and some handwritten.

Andy

Re: R: Large discs

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk wrote:

The M kind of dvd supports guarantee over 1000 years of retention, and
resistance to acid/alien invasion/etc


let's start with:
"How old is the oldest surviving M-disc?"
"Is there a form of machine readable data older than 150 years?"
"Have they completely figured out Stonehenge?"
[Don't you hate rhetorical questions?]

They can postulate theoretical life.
They can bake them, freeze them, hold them up in a tornado, use them 
as Starbucks coasters, etc., and then measure how much wear, damage, and 
aging they detect, and extrapolate from there.

Have they successfully figured out what factors will shorten the life?
Are there any factors that they missed?   (such as a previously 
unnoticed air pollutant that suddenly becomes common (Sontaran Atmos?) 
that destroys the binder layer, or an imaginary wireless signal that 
corrupts all m-discs within range?)



Every new development since, and including, CD has been hyped as 
unbelievably long lasting, such as "50 years!".  Then, over time, they 
find out more about the risk factors, and the retention time gets 
shortened.   Some of those "many decades" things ended up going bad in a 
few years.


If you buy M-Disc, and it doesn't last 1000 years, . . .
1) Will Verbatim be around to honor a warranty?
2) Is that a full replacement warranty, or is it "pro-rated"?
3) How do you store a drive to last that long?
4) Is any of OUR data worth keeping long-term?

Actual data about data retention time certainly exists.  But, I couldn't 
trivially Google it.
[Yes, "Google" as a verb resulted in a case claiming that once it becomes 
a verb, that the trademark becomes invalid!

http://blogs.findlaw.com/supreme_court/2017/08/scotus-to-consider-whether-google-trademark-is-generic.html
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/10/supreme-court-wont-nullify-google-trademark-in-genericide-challenge/
]

'course you will get a firehose worth of anecdotal crap, such as
"I bought some discs on eBay, and they went bad" and
"They last FOREVER! The discs that I bought in high school 3 years ago 
are still good!"


I was surprised that M-disc.com didn't put up links (other than a bar 
graph without a scale!) providing the retention data for comparison.  Does 
that mean that it is BETTER than we thought?



But, M-Disc DOES seem like the best long-term form.  So, I will get an 
M-disc compatible BDXL, and a stack of media (100G M-Disc are EXPENSIVE!) 
That action on my part, will surely ensure the immediate development and 
release of cheaper, more compact, faster, longer lasting storage systems, 
such as $5 10,000 year 10GB/S PetaByte thumb-drives ("The LottaByte NSA 
Utah Data Center https://nsa.gov1.info/utah-data-center/   will fit in 
your pocket") 
(or my death, and my heirs will instantaneously dumpster everything that I have)



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Large discs

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jan 5, 2018, at 5:07 PM, Diane Bruce via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jan 05, 2018 at 09:33:47PM +, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> Do they also guarantee there will be a device capable of reading it
>> in 1000 years?
> 
> It was bad enough with the BBC Domesday project.
> 
> Paper. Paper is the only way.
> acid free paper.

Paper isn't all that reliable.  The Long Now foundation is one outfit that has 
worked on this issue.  Check out their "Rosetta Disk".

paul

Re: Large discs

[Diane Bruce via cctalk]

On Fri, Jan 05, 2018 at 09:33:47PM +, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> Do they also guarantee there will be a device capable of reading it
> in 1000 years?

It was bad enough with the BBC Domesday project.

Paper. Paper is the only way.
acid free paper.

> 
> bill
> 
> 
> From: cctalk  on behalf of Mazzini Alessandro 
> via cctalk 
> Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 4:01 PM
> To: 'Paul Koning'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: R: Large discs
> 
> The M kind of dvd supports guarantee over 1000 years of retention, and
> resistance to acid/alien invasion/etc
> 
> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Per conto di Paul Koning
> via cctalk
> Inviato: venerdì 5 gennaio 2018 21:45
> A: Warner Losh; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Oggetto: Re: Large discs
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
> >  >> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm  not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless
> >>> maybe using enterprise level ones.
> >>> Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for
> >>> 6 months
> >>>
> >>
> > The JEDEC spec for Consumer grade SSDs is 1 year unpowered at 30C at
> > end of life.
> > The JEDEC spec for Enterprise grade SSDs is 90 days, unpowered at 30C
> > at end of life.
> 
> That's curious.  Then again, end of life for enterprise SSDs is many
> thousands of write passes over the full disk (or the same amount of writes
> to smaller address ranges thanks to remapping).  Under high but not insane
> loads that takes 5-7 years.  So presumably the retention while fairly new
> (not very worn) is much better.  Still it's surprising to see a number that
> small.
> 
> > As far as I've seen, all SATA and NVME drive vendors adhere to these
> > specs as a minimum, but there's also a new class of drive for 'cold
> storage'
> > which has high retention, but low endurance and longer data read times...
> 
> I don't know if the "cold storage" SSD stuff is going anywhere.  But in any
> case, it seems to aim at high density at the expense of low endurance.  I
> don't remember hearing retention discussed at all, higher or unchanged.
> 
> Having drives with limited retention seems quite problematic.  And
> "unpowered" suggests that leaving the power on would help -- but I don't see
> why that would be so.
> 
> As for writable DVDs and such, do they have any useful retention specs?
> 
> paul
> 

-- 
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2018-01-05 4:08 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


Hi,

I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow
like to image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the
contents of multiple floppies to
  make a single good one

These are all 8” diskettes.

The complicating factors in all of this are:
a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment

Any ideas/comments would be welcome.



As far as backing up the floppies, I used ImageDisk with an 8" Shugart 850
hooked up to a PC to image and duplicate the microcode floppies for the
43xx machines we have at the museum.  It works quite well.  Obviously this
would require you to pick up a "new" 8" drive (I've no experience with IBM
8" drives, but I wager they're not going to "just work" with a PC FDC.)

The IMD tools come with an image viewer that can translate EBCDIC, though
you'll probably want something more advanced to actually modify/splice
things.

- Josh



Thanks.

TTFN - Guy


the IBM manufactured 8" drives are not going to work on a PC the signals 
on the interfaces are quite different and there is no track zero signal, 
in IBM systems when they initialized they did enough down steps to  
ensure head was at track zero.  Anyone that has heard a 33FD drive seek 
zero will remember the sound that they made when the carriage hammered 
on the down stop, the problem was the stop would break off and the 
carriage would go below track zero.  There where some 8" drive 
assemblies manufactured for AS/400 that do use drives with and "industry 
standard" interface I recently saw an external one for sale on eBay.


Paul.

Re: Large discs

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Do they also guarantee there will be a device capable of reading it
in 1000 years?

bill


From: cctalk  on behalf of Mazzini Alessandro 
via cctalk 
Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 4:01 PM
To: 'Paul Koning'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: R: Large discs

The M kind of dvd supports guarantee over 1000 years of retention, and
resistance to acid/alien invasion/etc

-Messaggio originale-
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Per conto di Paul Koning
via cctalk
Inviato: venerdì 5 gennaio 2018 21:45
A: Warner Losh; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Oggetto: Re: Large discs



> On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk 
wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
> > wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote:
>>
>>> I'm  not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless
>>> maybe using enterprise level ones.
>>> Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for
>>> 6 months
>>>
>>
> The JEDEC spec for Consumer grade SSDs is 1 year unpowered at 30C at
> end of life.
> The JEDEC spec for Enterprise grade SSDs is 90 days, unpowered at 30C
> at end of life.

That's curious.  Then again, end of life for enterprise SSDs is many
thousands of write passes over the full disk (or the same amount of writes
to smaller address ranges thanks to remapping).  Under high but not insane
loads that takes 5-7 years.  So presumably the retention while fairly new
(not very worn) is much better.  Still it's surprising to see a number that
small.

> As far as I've seen, all SATA and NVME drive vendors adhere to these
> specs as a minimum, but there's also a new class of drive for 'cold
storage'
> which has high retention, but low endurance and longer data read times...

I don't know if the "cold storage" SSD stuff is going anywhere.  But in any
case, it seems to aim at high density at the expense of low endurance.  I
don't remember hearing retention discussed at all, higher or unchanged.

Having drives with limited retention seems quite problematic.  And
"unpowered" suggests that leaving the power on would help -- but I don't see
why that would be so.

As for writable DVDs and such, do they have any useful retention specs?

paul

Re: R: Large discs

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 01/05/2018 01:01 PM, Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk wrote:
> The M kind of dvd supports guarantee over 1000 years of retention, and
> resistance to acid/alien invasion/etc

Here's a government-(Canada) sponsored paper on the subject:

https://www.canada.ca/en/conservation-institute/services/conservation-preservation-publications/canadian-conservation-institute-notes/longevity-recordable-cds-dvds.html

In any case, my DVDs will last longer than I will.

--Chuck

Re: Large discs

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:44 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:

>
>
> > On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm  not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless
> maybe
> >>> using enterprise level ones.
> >>> Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6
> >>> months
> >>>
> >>
> > The JEDEC spec for Consumer grade SSDs is 1 year unpowered at 30C at end
> of
> > life.
> > The JEDEC spec for Enterprise grade SSDs is 90 days, unpowered at 30C at
> > end of life.
>
> That's curious.  Then again, end of life for enterprise SSDs is many
> thousands of write passes over the full disk (or the same amount of writes
> to smaller address ranges thanks to remapping).  Under high but not insane
> loads that takes 5-7 years.  So presumably the retention while fairly new
> (not very worn) is much better.  Still it's surprising to see a number that
> small.
>

There's method in this madness... The enterprise drives are trading
retention for speed and endurance. When you design NAND storage devices,
you basically get to pick two of the following to optimize for: speed,
retention, endurance. Consumer drives are optimized for less endurance,
better retention and decent speed. Enterprise drives are optimized for
maximum speed, good endurance and OK retention.


> > As far as I've seen, all SATA and NVME drive vendors adhere to these
> specs
> > as a minimum, but there's also a new class of drive for 'cold storage'
> > which has high retention, but low endurance and longer data read times...
>
> I don't know if the "cold storage" SSD stuff is going anywhere.  But in
> any case, it seems to aim at high density at the expense of low endurance.
> I don't remember hearing retention discussed at all, higher or unchanged.
>

I've seen briefings that suggest higher retention for that class of
product, but I've not seen the JEDEC profile for it yet.


> Having drives with limited retention seems quite problematic.  And
> "unpowered" suggests that leaving the power on would help -- but I don't
> see why that would be so.
>

That's simple: powered drives have firmware running. The firmware can
manage the NAND such that it reads the data in just enough time to ensure
it can do it reliably before rewriting it to another part of the drive.
Unpowered, it can't do that.


> As for writable DVDs and such, do they have any useful retention specs?
>

No clue there. I worked for 3 years on a NMVE flash drive so got to learn
all about this junk there since my job focused on NAND reliability and
ensuring we met our benchmark numbers for speed, endurance and retention in
the different configuration we sold.

Warner

R: Large discs

[Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk]

The M kind of dvd supports guarantee over 1000 years of retention, and
resistance to acid/alien invasion/etc

-Messaggio originale-
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Per conto di Paul Koning
via cctalk
Inviato: venerdì 5 gennaio 2018 21:45
A: Warner Losh; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Oggetto: Re: Large discs



> On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk 
wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk 
> > wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm  not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless 
>>> maybe using enterprise level ones.
>>> Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 
>>> 6 months
>>> 
>> 
> The JEDEC spec for Consumer grade SSDs is 1 year unpowered at 30C at 
> end of life.
> The JEDEC spec for Enterprise grade SSDs is 90 days, unpowered at 30C 
> at end of life.

That's curious.  Then again, end of life for enterprise SSDs is many
thousands of write passes over the full disk (or the same amount of writes
to smaller address ranges thanks to remapping).  Under high but not insane
loads that takes 5-7 years.  So presumably the retention while fairly new
(not very worn) is much better.  Still it's surprising to see a number that
small.

> As far as I've seen, all SATA and NVME drive vendors adhere to these 
> specs as a minimum, but there's also a new class of drive for 'cold
storage'
> which has high retention, but low endurance and longer data read times...

I don't know if the "cold storage" SSD stuff is going anywhere.  But in any
case, it seems to aim at high density at the expense of low endurance.  I
don't remember hearing retention discussed at all, higher or unchanged.

Having drives with limited retention seems quite problematic.  And
"unpowered" suggests that leaving the power on would help -- but I don't see
why that would be so.

As for writable DVDs and such, do they have any useful retention specs?  

paul

Re: Large discs

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm  not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless maybe
>>> using enterprise level ones.
>>> Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6
>>> months
>>> 
>> 
> The JEDEC spec for Consumer grade SSDs is 1 year unpowered at 30C at end of
> life.
> The JEDEC spec for Enterprise grade SSDs is 90 days, unpowered at 30C at
> end of life.

That's curious.  Then again, end of life for enterprise SSDs is many thousands 
of write passes over the full disk (or the same amount of writes to smaller 
address ranges thanks to remapping).  Under high but not insane loads that 
takes 5-7 years.  So presumably the retention while fairly new (not very worn) 
is much better.  Still it's surprising to see a number that small.

> As far as I've seen, all SATA and NVME drive vendors adhere to these specs
> as a minimum, but there's also a new class of drive for 'cold storage'
> which has high retention, but low endurance and longer data read times...

I don't know if the "cold storage" SSD stuff is going anywhere.  But in any 
case, it seems to aim at high density at the expense of low endurance.  I don't 
remember hearing retention discussed at all, higher or unchanged.

Having drives with limited retention seems quite problematic.  And "unpowered" 
suggests that leaving the power on would help -- but I don't see why that would 
be so.

As for writable DVDs and such, do they have any useful retention specs?  

paul

Re: R: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote:
>
>> I'm  not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless maybe
>> using enterprise level ones.
>> Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6
>> months
>>
>
The JEDEC spec for Consumer grade SSDs is 1 year unpowered at 30C at end of
life.
The JEDEC spec for Enterprise grade SSDs is 90 days, unpowered at 30C at
end of life.

As far as I've seen, all SATA and NVME drive vendors adhere to these specs
as a minimum, but there's also a new class of drive for 'cold storage'
which has high retention, but low endurance and longer data read times...


> if unpowered... any more time means being lucky. Would suck to save, store,
>> and after some years find the data mangled...
>>
>
> Yep!
> SSD would be very unsuitable for archiving.
>

Unworn (meaning only a few P/E cycles) SSDs made from MLC or SLC NAND have
data retention measured in the decade range. Stored at 0C, these would have
~300 year data retention since every 10C below the benchmark temperature
gives you 3x longer retention. Conversely, storing at 40C or 50C puts the
data at risk.

Worn (meaning near end of life) SSDs, especially those that have been
pushed past end of life, have issues.

But, it is a nice fast medium for short-term uses.
> AND, it MIGHT be the first to get a unit larger than 2TB that will fit in
> a thin 2.5" form factor.
> Probably better SHORT-TERM reliability than the Seagate 2TB thin SATA
> spinning rust.
>
>
> What is the archival life of a BDXL, other than M-disc?
> M-disc media is a bit expensive.
> It looks like an excellent medium for data collections a tenth the size of
> what I'm playing with.
>
>
> It seems that it is still necessary to maintain multiple copies
> (geographically separate - we had a 4.4 quake yesterday morning), on
> multiple different media, and make new copies on a regular basis.

Re: R: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

In cases where the source remains available, in case of problems, nothing 
can beat it for sneaker-net.  It does not contribute noticeably to the 
transfer speeds.



On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote:
You're one of the first people I've heard quote that. Do you know where 
that is said? Years ago several friends and myself all picked up 64mb 
usb thumb drives so we could have multiple backups of a game and few 
other projects we were coding.  Maybe it was an extended period of time 
(we ended up switching to compatible removable drive bays) but 2 out of 
3 of us lost all the data on our thumb drives around the same time. 
I haven't heard may others share the concern but i wouldn't use ssd as a 
tech unless im forced to for that reason.



 Original message From: Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk  Date: 1/5/18  7:15 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
I'm  not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless maybe

using enterprise level ones.
Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6 months
if unpowered... any more time means being lucky. Would suck to save, store,
and after some years find (over snipped)

Re: R: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018, Mazzini Alessandro wrote:

I'm  not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless maybe
using enterprise level ones.
Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6 months
if unpowered... any more time means being lucky. Would suck to save, store,
and after some years find the data mangled...


Yep!
SSD would be very unsuitable for archiving.
But, it is a nice fast medium for short-term uses.
AND, it MIGHT be the first to get a unit larger than 2TB that will fit in 
a thin 2.5" form factor.
Probably better SHORT-TERM reliability than the Seagate 2TB thin SATA 
spinning rust.



What is the archival life of a BDXL, other than M-disc?
M-disc media is a bit expensive.
It looks like an excellent medium for data collections a tenth the size of 
what I'm playing with.



It seems that it is still necessary to maintain multiple copies 
(geographically separate - we had a 4.4 quake yesterday morning), on 
multiple different media, and make new copies on a regular basis.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Josh Dersch via cctalk]

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow
> like to image them so:
> a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
> b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the
> contents of multiple floppies to
>  make a single good one
>
> These are all 8” diskettes.
>
> The complicating factors in all of this are:
> a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
> b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
> c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
> d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
>
> Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
>


As far as backing up the floppies, I used ImageDisk with an 8" Shugart 850
hooked up to a PC to image and duplicate the microcode floppies for the
43xx machines we have at the museum.  It works quite well.  Obviously this
would require you to pick up a "new" 8" drive (I've no experience with IBM
8" drives, but I wager they're not going to "just work" with a PC FDC.)

The IMD tools come with an image viewer that can translate EBCDIC, though
you'll probably want something more advanced to actually modify/splice
things.

- Josh


>
> Thanks.
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

I don’t know much about the system itself but if it used one of 
the typical IBM 8” diskette formats, you may be able to use IMD or Teledisk and 
an appropriate multi-density floppy controller. I’ve had pretty good success 
with those two programs. 



Get Outlook for iOS





On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 2:56 PM -0500, "Warner Losh via cctalk" 
 wrote:










On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow
> like to image them so:
> a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
> b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the
> contents of multiple floppies to
>  make a single good one
>
> These are all 8” diskettes.
>
> The complicating factors in all of this are:
> a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
> b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
> c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
> d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
>
> Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
>

I love the imaging capabilities of kryoflux (http://www.kyroflux.com/).
You'd have to remove the 8" floppy from the IBM and connect it to the
kyroflux to do the imaging.

Warner

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow
> like to image them so:
> a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
> b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the
> contents of multiple floppies to
>  make a single good one
>
> These are all 8” diskettes.
>
> The complicating factors in all of this are:
> a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
> b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
> c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
> d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
>
> Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
>

I love the imaging capabilities of kryoflux (http://www.kyroflux.com/).
You'd have to remove the 8" floppy from the IBM and connect it to the
kyroflux to do the imaging.

Warner

non-PC Floppy imaging

[Guy Sotomayor via cctalk]

Hi,

I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow like 
to image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the contents 
of multiple floppies to
 make a single good one

These are all 8” diskettes.

The complicating factors in all of this are:
a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment

Any ideas/comments would be welcome.

Thanks.

TTFN - Guy

RE: Re: Spectre & Meltdown

[Rick Bensene via cctalk]

Ed Sharpe wrote:
>what about  xenon processors??

Xenon?  You mean the processor jointly developed by Microsoft & IBM based on 
the PowerPC architecture, developed and used in the Xbox 360?

Or perhaps did you mean Xeon (note no N in the middle)?  There is a big 
difference.

Don't know if the Xenon is susceptible, but given that the problem is with the 
way VM works, it could be susceptible, but the code to exploit it would be 
completely different because of the PowerPC architecture.

Intel Xeon processors are marketed toward non-consumer computers such as 
servers and workstations.  All Xeon processors are susceptible because they all 
do speculative execution.

The solution to avoiding infection is not to use any web browser that has Java 
enabledat least for now.
Of course, get rid of Flash if you have it.  It could also be a vector, though 
that hasn't been proven.
Use no-script.
Better  yet, use a text-only browser that ignores all scripting of any kind.
Don't install /any/ software for any source for which you are not completely 
assured of safety  (good luck).
Get rid of any software on your machine that you are not 100% sure about, 
especially if it can automatically update itself.
If you have any third-party software that is set to auto-update, either turn 
the feature off, or only allow you to determine when updates are applied.
Of course, update your OS as soon as updates are available, as patches (which 
will likely slow your system down) are forthcoming from Microsoft and various 
Linux trees.
The best defense, however, is simply call your ISP and tell them you want your 
connection turned off. ;-)
It's getting really dangerous out there.

-Rick
---
Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com

Re: R: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown

[Sam O'nella via cctalk]

You're one of the first people I've heard quote that. Do you know where that is 
said? Years ago several friends and myself all picked up 64mb usb thumb drives 
so we could have multiple backups of a game and few other projects we were 
coding.  Maybe it was an extended period of time (we ended up switching to 
compatible removable drive bays) but 2 out of 3 of us lost all the data on our 
thumb drives around the same time. 
I haven't heard may others share the concern but i wouldn't use ssd as a tech 
unless im forced to for that reason.
 Original message From: Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk 
 Date: 1/5/18  7:15 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
I'm  not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless maybe
using enterprise level ones.
Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6 months
if unpowered... any more time means being lucky. Would suck to save, store,
and after some years find (over snipped)

Re: Spectre & Meltdown

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

A 6TB hard drive, available for about $130 (or less), would be
equivalent to about 60 of the 100GB BDXL disks, which seem to go for
about $6 each, so $360 for around 6TB.  And the hard disk will take less
time to read and write.  And the hard drive would take up less space.

JRJ

On 1/4/2018 7:50 PM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote:
> Hard drives NEVER keep up. Bragging about how many DVD's (90's
> technology) you can store on current HD means little to people who have
> ultra HD Blueray videos that take up to 100GB of space. Heck even a
> single game download can be 50GB these days.
> 
> And I wouldn't mind one of those old networked DVD changers (I think
> Sony sold them commercially) to play around with.
> 

Re: Able ENABLE (was: Boot RXS)

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

>> From: Jim Stephens

>> I had a meeting with Ken Omohundro on 12/7 and will be having dinner
>> with him again soon. I'll ask him about it. I know he doesn't have any
>> records left, but I could take him your notes and see what he recalls.

> Thanks very much for that offer; we do think we know more or less how it
> works 

So, I have completed what I think is a pretty thorough article on the CHWiki
about the ENABLE:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/Able_ENABLE

It contains _everything_ I was able to glean from the still-extant
documentation, etc, which I have access to.

There is enough detail there to add support for it to SIMH/Ersatz-11 (hint,
hint :-).


> there are two areas in which he might be able to help.

> The first is some very low-level details of how it worked, in terms of
> the UNIBUS interaction ... I _surmise_ that it was something like it
> watches NPR/SACK for a DMA cycle .. then waits for BBSY to cycle, at
> which point it knows it's a DMA cycle

Having refreshed my memory of how DMA cycles worked, I suspect it just watched
SACK and BBSY (since technically a UNIBUS device can do DMA cycles after
grabbing the bus with BRn), so no need to watch NPR.

> The second is some details of how some of the optional stuff for using
> existing memory, non-DMA devices, etc worked. ... I'll have to go
> re-read the documentation

Having looked again, I don't think there's any mystery; probably I just hadn't
carefully read it before.

One question I do have, though: why the limit (per the documentation) to 128KB
of old memory? If I'm correcly understanding how the MemDap works (it
apparently makes the address space of the 'secondary' UNIBUS appear on top of
the EUB memory, on the EUB) it should be able to handle up to 248KB? (The top
8KB is the I/O space on the secondary UNIBUS, which, if devices on the
secondary UNIBUS are to be supported, must be visible to the CPU through the
ENABLE.)

> It would also be interesting to know why he just didn't use a 3-bus
> design .. I suspect that the answer is that they way they did it, they
> could use a stock MUD backplane ... and only one over-the-back [UNIBUS]
> connector into the ENABLE [there probably wasn't room for a second].

This too.


>> I hope to get a biography and history of his companies including Able,
>> and figure somewhere to get it stored.

> The Computer History wiki would seem an ideal place for this sort of
> content?

Reaction?

Noel

R: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown

[Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk]

I'm  not sure I would use SSD for long term "secure" storage, unless maybe
using enterprise level ones.
Consumer level SSD are, by specifics, guaranteed to retain data for 6 months
if unpowered... any more time means being lucky. Would suck to save, store,
and after some years find the data mangled...

-Messaggio originale-
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Per conto di Fred Cisin
via cctalk
Inviato: venerdì 5 gennaio 2018 03:38
A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Oggetto: Large discs (Was: Spectre & Meltdown

On Thu, 4 Jan 2018, TeoZ wrote:
> Hard drives NEVER keep up. Bragging about how many DVD's (90's 
> technology) you can store on current HD means little to people who 
> have ultra HD Blueray videos that take up to 100GB of space. Heck even 
> a single game download can be 50GB these days.

I'd be interested in hearing about opinions of the 100GB "M-disc".  I've
heard that they have decent longevity, and, the "low" capacity ones are
interchangeable with conventional DVDs.

I can still put 20 100GB DVDs (2017 technology) on a 2TB 2.5" Thin SATA.
However, I'm also looking for multi-terabyte storage.
Are higher capacity DVDs on their way?
Howzbout multi-TearByte SSDs?


> And I wouldn't mind one of those old networked DVD changers (I think 
> Sony sold them commercially) to play around with.

I still want one of the ones that Kieth Hensen designed. Converting it from
CD to DVD would be completely TRIVIAL (finding DVD drives with suitable form
factors and loading options)

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com




> I always wanted Keith Hensen's "Kubik"? CD changer.  Big "carousel 
> slide tray" full of 240?! CDs/DVDs, in a square box, with a drive in 
> each corner.  The drives were SCSI, and the load/unload/select control 
> was RS232. The big square boxes could be stacked, for a larger 
> collection, and there was a trivial mod to make the tray removable, so 
> that the top box could be swapped with as many trays as you had shelf
space for.
>
> 'course hard drives caught up, and I now have about a thousand DVDs in 
> MP4s on a shirt pocket HDD.  (including ALL of the Doctor Who's that 
> were released on DVD, Red Dwarf 1 - XII, Dark Matter, Torchwood, 
> Twilight Zone, Prisoner, Marx Brothers, Doc Martin, One Foot In The 
> Grave, etc.) The DVD images (V .MP4) take over 5TB.

PDP-10 subreddit

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Here's a PDP-10 subreddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PDP10/