Re: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP))

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

I keep them all. Not counting the bad ones in the SS1 and 2, I have 7.

I can send them to you. I don't mind pick up the shipping costs for 
something small like that. But the $70 that is it going to cost to ship 
the SS20 to its new home is another matter.


alan

On 4/27/18 3:33 PM, systems_glitch wrote:
You can always send me the dead modules and I'll rebuild them 
(GlitchWorks == me, my wife sometimes helps with assembly). Whatever 
you do, don't throw out the dead NVRAMs -- I'll buy them or pay for 
you to ship them or whatever, they're not making more and they're the 
only solution that's 100% compatible.


Yeah, the "still works but pukes errors" is the typical symptom of the 
newer, slightly incompatible 48T02s in Sun machines. I don't recall if 
mine kept accurate time with the newer modules.


Thanks,
Jonathan

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk 
> wrote:


The ones from Mouser work well enough in every system that I have
used them in. I still get the IDPROM corrupt message on boot on
some systems, but it holds the MAC and the systems boot without
intervention.

I tried to repair a few and botched most of them. I know that I
should be using the GlitchWorks stuff, but it has been easier to
just buy something that I can plug in.

alan


On 4/27/18 3:15 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:

Don't get the new MK48T02/MK48T08s from Mouser et al, they're
not fully
compatible. They will retain NVRAM but the clock part is
different and
you'll get an error on that (system won't autoboot). Rebuild
your old
NVRAM! I made up some little boards to make the repair cleaner
and faster
to do (I had about 50 NVRAMs to repair):

http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1


There are other guides for tacking on a coin cell holder
without cutting
off the entire top encapsulation, but if you do that, it may
not fit under
SBus cards if you're doing it on a system that puts SBus slots
over the
NVRAM.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org > wrote:

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk
> wrote:

- SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad
IDPROM; aside from that
  it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no
HDD now, and a 3.5"
  floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the
IDPROM, it doesn't
  have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet).
Like the SS2, it
  needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover
over the rear of the
  case is broken off.

What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are
around $25 on Mouser.
SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD
are $60 plus
shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of
25 year old HDDs

with

a stated service life of 5 years (according to one
spec sheet that I

read),

SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive.

When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery
NVRAM type of
thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the
currently
available versions of those new at Mouser fully
compatible? Those are
one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully
compatible with the old versions for some systems, even
though they
are supposed to be.

My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much
demand for those
it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around
to doing
anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem
to be a lot
less common, and maybe more collectible.

Re: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP))

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 4/27/18 3:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk
 wrote:

- SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from that
  it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a 3.5"
  floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't
  have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it
  needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of the
  case is broken off.

What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on Mouser.
SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus
shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs with
a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I read),
SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive.


When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery NVRAM type of
thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the currently
available versions of those new at Mouser fully compatible? Those are
one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully
compatible with the old versions for some systems, even though they
are supposed to be.


Yes.

The better option is to repair the NVRAM to use a replaceable battery. 
As noted elsewhere, the new ones on Mouser aren't completely compatible, 
but they work good enough in my experience with the lunchbox systems and 
SS5/20s.




My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much demand for those
it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around to doing
anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem to be a lot
less common, and maybe more collectible.


I don't think there is much demand. The SS5s and 20s that I got from 
Pete's place were claimed quickly. No takers yet for the SS1 or SS2. If 
there ends up being no takers, I will still refurb them and make them 
into nice running systems.


alan

Re: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP))

[systems_glitch via cctalk]

You can always send me the dead modules and I'll rebuild them (GlitchWorks
== me, my wife sometimes helps with assembly). Whatever you do, don't throw
out the dead NVRAMs -- I'll buy them or pay for you to ship them or
whatever, they're not making more and they're the only solution that's 100%
compatible.

Yeah, the "still works but pukes errors" is the typical symptom of the
newer, slightly incompatible 48T02s in Sun machines. I don't recall if mine
kept accurate time with the newer modules.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The ones from Mouser work well enough in every system that I have used
> them in. I still get the IDPROM corrupt message on boot on some systems,
> but it holds the MAC and the systems boot without intervention.
>
> I tried to repair a few and botched most of them. I know that I should be
> using the GlitchWorks stuff, but it has been easier to just buy something
> that I can plug in.
>
> alan
>
>
> On 4/27/18 3:15 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Don't get the new MK48T02/MK48T08s from Mouser et al, they're not fully
>> compatible. They will retain NVRAM but the clock part is different and
>> you'll get an error on that (system won't autoboot). Rebuild your old
>> NVRAM! I made up some little boards to make the repair cleaner and faster
>> to do (I had about 50 NVRAMs to repair):
>>
>> http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1
>>
>> There are other guides for tacking on a coin cell holder without cutting
>> off the entire top encapsulation, but if you do that, it may not fit under
>> SBus cards if you're doing it on a system that puts SBus slots over the
>> NVRAM.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jonathan
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from
 that
   it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a
 3.5"
   floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't
   have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it
   needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of
 the
   case is broken off.

 What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on
 Mouser.
 SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus
 shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs

>>> with
>>>
 a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I

>>> read),
>>>
 SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive.

 When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery NVRAM type of
>>> thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the currently
>>> available versions of those new at Mouser fully compatible? Those are
>>> one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully
>>> compatible with the old versions for some systems, even though they
>>> are supposed to be.
>>>
>>> My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much demand for those
>>> it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around to doing
>>> anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem to be a lot
>>> less common, and maybe more collectible.
>>>
>>>
>

Re: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP))

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

The ones from Mouser work well enough in every system that I have used 
them in. I still get the IDPROM corrupt message on boot on some systems, 
but it holds the MAC and the systems boot without intervention.


I tried to repair a few and botched most of them. I know that I should 
be using the GlitchWorks stuff, but it has been easier to just buy 
something that I can plug in.


alan

On 4/27/18 3:15 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:

Don't get the new MK48T02/MK48T08s from Mouser et al, they're not fully
compatible. They will retain NVRAM but the clock part is different and
you'll get an error on that (system won't autoboot). Rebuild your old
NVRAM! I made up some little boards to make the repair cleaner and faster
to do (I had about 50 NVRAMs to repair):

http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1

There are other guides for tacking on a coin cell holder without cutting
off the entire top encapsulation, but if you do that, it may not fit under
SBus cards if you're doing it on a system that puts SBus slots over the
NVRAM.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk
 wrote:

- SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from that
  it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a 3.5"
  floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't
  have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it
  needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of the
  case is broken off.

What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on Mouser.
SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus
shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs

with

a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I

read),

SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive.


When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery NVRAM type of
thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the currently
available versions of those new at Mouser fully compatible? Those are
one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully
compatible with the old versions for some systems, even though they
are supposed to be.

My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much demand for those
it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around to doing
anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem to be a lot
less common, and maybe more collectible.

Re: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP))

[systems_glitch via cctalk]

Tip on replacement hard drives: you can use a SCA drive with an adapter
inside some Sun boxes, or my personal favorite, a Sun "UniDisk" enclosure
with a SCA drive inside. SCA drives are really cheap, even for big ones
(they go up to 300 GB), and you can still get some of the later production
drives with 0 hours on them. You'll usually need to create a partition less
than 1 GB within the first 1 GB of the drive, or your Sun won't be able to
boot it. Larger partitions after that are OK.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:15 PM, systems_glitch 
wrote:

> Don't get the new MK48T02/MK48T08s from Mouser et al, they're not fully
> compatible. They will retain NVRAM but the clock part is different and
> you'll get an error on that (system won't autoboot). Rebuild your old
> NVRAM! I made up some little boards to make the repair cleaner and faster
> to do (I had about 50 NVRAMs to repair):
>
> http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1
>
> There are other guides for tacking on a coin cell holder without cutting
> off the entire top encapsulation, but if you do that, it may not fit under
> SBus cards if you're doing it on a system that puts SBus slots over the
> NVRAM.
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
>
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from
>> that
>> >  it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a
>> 3.5"
>> >  floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't
>> >  have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it
>> >  needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of the
>> >  case is broken off.
>> >
>> > What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on
>> Mouser.
>> > SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus
>> > shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs
>> with
>> > a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I
>> read),
>> > SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive.
>> >
>>
>> When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery NVRAM type of
>> thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the currently
>> available versions of those new at Mouser fully compatible? Those are
>> one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully
>> compatible with the old versions for some systems, even though they
>> are supposed to be.
>>
>> My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much demand for those
>> it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around to doing
>> anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem to be a lot
>> less common, and maybe more collectible.
>>
>
>

Re: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP))

[systems_glitch via cctalk]

Don't get the new MK48T02/MK48T08s from Mouser et al, they're not fully
compatible. They will retain NVRAM but the clock part is different and
you'll get an error on that (system won't autoboot). Rebuild your old
NVRAM! I made up some little boards to make the repair cleaner and faster
to do (I had about 50 NVRAMs to repair):

http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/08/01/gw-48t02-1

There are other guides for tacking on a coin cell holder without cutting
off the entire top encapsulation, but if you do that, it may not fit under
SBus cards if you're doing it on a system that puts SBus slots over the
NVRAM.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk
>  wrote:
> >
> > - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from that
> >  it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a 3.5"
> >  floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't
> >  have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it
> >  needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of the
> >  case is broken off.
> >
> > What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on Mouser.
> > SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus
> > shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs
> with
> > a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I
> read),
> > SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive.
> >
>
> When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery NVRAM type of
> thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the currently
> available versions of those new at Mouser fully compatible? Those are
> one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully
> compatible with the old versions for some systems, even though they
> are supposed to be.
>
> My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much demand for those
> it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around to doing
> anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem to be a lot
> less common, and maybe more collectible.
>

Re: SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP))

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> - SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from that
>  it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a 3.5"
>  floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't
>  have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it
>  needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of the
>  case is broken off.
>
> What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on Mouser.
> SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus
> shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs with
> a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I read),
> SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive.
>

When you say IDPROM, is that a Dallas built-in battery NVRAM type of
thing? I have an SS1 with a dead NVRAM thing. Are the currently
available versions of those new at Mouser fully compatible? Those are
one of those things that the new versions aren't always fully
compatible with the old versions for some systems, even though they
are supposed to be.

My SS1 is also in the Seattle area. If there is much demand for those
it's probably one of those systems I'll never get around to doing
anything with it myself. I also have a 4/110. Those seem to be a lot
less common, and maybe more collectible.

SPARCstation rescue giveaway (Was: Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP))

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

I wrote:
>... yesterday I managed to take the two SPARCstation 20s that I gotfrom
>Pete's and make one working dual-processor SS20. I alsopassed on one of
>the SS5s to its new owner. The person who originally spoke up for the
>SS20 has not responded to subsequent e-mail, so it may be available. I
>will also have a SS1 and SS2 available, but I need to order more IDPROMs
>before I can finish refurb'ing them.

An update - The person who spoke up for a SS20 responded this morning and
the one that I put together from the two broken ones from Pete's will soon
be on its way to its new home.

What I have left to give away are:

- SPARCstation 20 chassis. No top cover. The front left corner plastic
 cover is missing and the front right plastic cover has broken tabs and
 won't stay on. It has a working power supply and a motherboard that the
 firmware reports "replace motherboard" during diagnostics. It has no
 MBus (processor) or SBus cards nor any memory. It has the HDD backplane,
 cabling for the HDD and optical drive, and the drive cooling fan.

- SPARCstation 2. Complete and boots into SunOS 4. It has 48M memory, a
 Sun207 (nominal 207M) HDD, and a 3.5" floppy drive. It also has an extra
 SCSI SBus card (501-1759) and a GX CG6 frame buffer, dual-slot SBus card
 (501-1645). It has a bad IDPROM and the case needs to be cleaned. It has
 its hostname "smoked" written all over it; I don't know if there is a
 story that goes with that.

- SPARCstation 1. Chassis is intact. It has a bad IDPROM; aside from that
 it passes onboard diagnostics. It has 12M memory, no HDD now, and a 3.5"
 floppy drive. It has no SBus cards. Aside from the IDPROM, it doesn't
 have any issues (but I haven't run an OS on it yet). Like the SS2, it
 needs a bath. A small portion of the plastic cover over the rear of the
 case is broken off.

If you want one of these, the systems themselves are free. I just want
shipping costs and actual parts expenses (i.e., IDPROMs, HDDs, etc.). The
22x22x6 box that they fit in costs $15 (when bought one-at-a-time). I
haven't weighed a SS1/2, but the boxed SS20 weighed 30 lbs. The ship-from
zip is 98110. If you are local to Puget Sound, I will deliver.

What are these "actual parts expenses"? IDPROMs are around $25 on Mouser.
SCSI HDDs start around $70 shipped on eBay and SCSI2SD are $60 plus
shipping to me plus the SD price. Given the price of 25 year old HDDs with
a stated service life of 5 years (according to one spec sheet that I read),
SCSI2SD looks pretty attractive.

If no one chimes in NOW and says that he wants one to refurb himself, I
will start refurb'ing the SS1 and 2.

alan

Re: Early Honda cars - was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Fred Cisin via cctalk" 
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 6:48 PM
 
> The Honda 600 was NOT a bike. Well, mostly not.  After demise of the mid 
> 1960s Honda S600/S800 ("poor-man's-Ferrari" design exercise that got out 
> of hand and went into production), Honda engineers took a 360CC parallel 
> twin, detuned it and upped it to 600cc, added a differential, and a 
> reverse (tacked on to the outside of the case), and put it in a car body 
> that resembled the Mini.  AN600 was the first Hondas officially imported 
> into USA (1970).  A later Z600 had a "sportier" body, and one was cut in 
> half in the down-under movie "Malcolm"
 ---

Sounds like you never got the original N360 "Street Car" (360cc 'Mini' before 
the 600cc 'upgrade') down there; not a big seller here in Canada either:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_N360

Their first 4-wheeler was actually the T360 pickup truck; ridiculous as it 
sounds in North America, a light 360cc truck actually found a market among golf 
clubs for course maintenance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_T360

I loved my S600 roadster while it lasted; it wasn't very fast but sure sounded 
great at 10,000 RPM. Not many cars have "adjust drive chains" as part of 
regular maintenance ;-) :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_S600

Kei cars and motorcycles (Was: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP)

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 4/26/18 11:52 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 at 00:48, Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:


The Honda 600 was NOT a bike. Well, mostly not.  After demise of the mid
1960s Honda S600/S800 ("poor-man's-Ferrari" design exercise that got out
of hand and went into production), Honda engineers took a 360CC parallel
twin, detuned it and upped it to 600cc, added a differential, and a
reverse (tacked on to the outside of the case), and put it in a car body
that resembled the Mini.  AN600 was the first Hondas officially imported
into USA (1970).  A later Z600 had a "sportier" body, and one was cut in
half in the down-under movie "Malcolm"

Never heard of any of them. I guess they were not sold outside North
America and Japan.


The Z600 was sold on the Continent. Per Wikipedia, about a thousand were 
sold.




Kei cars are extremely rare in Europe as there is no financial advantage or
incentive to own them, and without that, they're cramped and overpowered.


That mostly sums it up, but there are some kei cars that interest 
enthusiasts, such as the Honda Beat and certain versions of the Suzuki 
Alto. A local shop here has three Mazda/Autozam AZ-1s and I am very 
tempted to get one.




Oddly, the 600cc "supersport" motorcycle category is huge, in contract,
because insurance is much cheaper for machines of 600cc or less.

But I know little of cars. Evil tin boxes, to me as a bicyclist and
motorcyclist, generally driven by homicidal morons.


Given the other people on the roads around here, I will take the 
additional protection provided by my evil tin box. I won't ride my 
motorcycle in the city unless it is to the dealer for service. Too many 
very close calls. Then again, I saw a motorcyclist almost take out a 
pedestrian (in a crosswalk, with the light) yesterday.


alan

P.S. To get this kinda back on topic, yesterday I managed to take the 
two SPARCstation 20s that I got from Pete's and make one working 
dual-processor SS20. I also passed on one of the SS5s to its new owner. 
The person who originally spoke up for the SS20 has not responded to 
subsequent e-mail, so it may be available. I will also have a SS1 and 
SS2 available, but I need to order more IDPROMs before I can finish 
refurb'ing them.

Re: TRS-80 Fragmentation

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote:

heard that the CRT sold for the Model I had some safety concerns? I think
that was just a rebadged RCA TV set with the tuner section removed?


Yes
Although I think that it is likely that Tandy bought them before a tuner 
was put in, rather than remove already installed tuners.


In early episodes of "Married With Children", you can see that model of TV 
on Al Bundy's kitchen counter.   (off-white, not battleship gray/"Mercedes 
Silver")


The signal cable for it comes out of the hole where the volume control 
would have been.


The open area where the tuner would have been is large enough to mount 
a full-height floppy with a small power supply and a mumetal shield.




Supposedly the RFI restrictions is one of the reasons that Apple didn't
include an RF modulator under the hood (and presumably TI on the 99/4(a)).


even IBM.  CGA boards, even Compaq's have a 4 pin Berg "RF modulator 
connector".

Re: TRS-80 Fragmentation

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

CP/M ran on the Model I and the Model III.  CP/M was a very adaptable OS.


CP/M required RAM where the TRS80 Model 1 and 3 had ROM.

An unmodified TRS80 (model 1 or model 3) could not run unmodified CP/M.

FMG? marketed a relocated CP/M for the TRS80.  But, moving CP/M to a 
different area of memory wasn't a satisfactory solution.  It worked, and 
was CP/M, but few commercial CP/M programs would work with it, since 
they assumed that the TPA (Transient Program Area) would be where it 
usually was for CP/M.  But, it let me use TRS80 Model 1 to teach beginning 
basics of CP/M in my disk operating systems class.  (such as creating a 
zero length file to restart a program)


Parasitic Engineering (Howard Fullmer (later chief engineer at Morrow) 
had a company in Berkeley) marketed a sandwich board for the CPU, and 
another for the FDC, that altered the memory map, and also provided for 
8" drives.


Omikron in Berkeley made a similar setup.

I had both.  Neither were cheap.


Later, in the Model 3 days, there were some more relocations and adapters 
for CP/M, such as FEC, Holmes, Hurricane labs, Memory Merchant, Micro 
Craft. Was Montezuma Micro (Ron Jones?) for Model 3 or model 4?




Tandy wasn't the only one who tried to do better.  Look at the NEC APC.
Quad Density Double Sided 8" disks. High density color graphics with 256
colors.  Dismal failure in the market because it wasn't fully "IBM
Compatible".
The follow-on NEC APC/III was a great big step backwards.


Or DEC Rainbow.  Or Sirius/Victor 9000.  Tandy wasn't the only one who 
thought that a "better" MS-DOS machine would be preferable to a clone.
There were many companies who made MS-DOS machines with various levels of 
compatibility, who had 80 track per side (96tpi) drives, such 
as Burroughs ET2120, Canon AS100, Rainbow, Eagle, IBM PC/JX, Monroe, 
Otrona (although their documentation writers misinterpreted 50h (80) as 
50! as discussed here 6 months ago), Siemens, Televideo TS1603, Toshiba 
T300, . . .


The Toshiba T300, for example, was reasonably compatible, other than 80 
track per side disk format, and they swapped the video memory location 
between CGA and MDA.  I ran PC-Write on one of them (I patched PC-Write 
for the other video memory).  Later, I loaned 2 of them to the California 
NMRI division of Toshiba for them to read disks.  Unfortunately, they 
returned them after they were finished.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: TRS-80 Fragmentation

[Tapley, Mark via cctalk]

> On Apr 27, 2018, at 9:08 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> Don't get me wrong. Like you I learned a lot due to all the variety of
> differing machines that were available in the market early on. From a
> business perspective I don't think it made a lot of sense however to have
> so many internally competing models.
> 
> Of course then, I guess you could argue that Atari probably had the most
> cohesive set of computers, but that didn't necessarily translate to great
> success. I guess that did mostly work for Apple with the II line, save for
> the major III distraction.

This is actually a pretty interesting topic, and relevant both to 
decision-making today and to classic computers. How did, and how should have, 
companies select architectures (CPU families, bus structures, peripheral 
strategies, etc.) to ensure continued viability? Some examples I see and my 
simple-minded scorecard below. I’m trying to stick with hardware vendors, so I 
left Microsoft and NeXT (possibly unjustly) off the list, but in some cases 
(Tandy? TI? Digital Group?) I think the imbalance between hardware development 
and software development was a huge factor in the company’s success or lack 
thereof.
Comments or corrections most welcome!

Digital Group: support 3 (?) different processor families on the same bus 
architecture (sort of)
technically very impressive, but flexibility -> cost -> low market 
share; not long-term successful

DEC: support almost every available CPU, and invent some of your own besides.
since supported everything, had price/performance dominance in most 
categories, but let *one* category slip away - business desktops - where much 
of the money was. Successful for a long time, but development costs overtook 
revenue eventually.

Apple: support one CPU, switching product line to another CPU as needed.
Able to pick architectures to create new markets; limited 
interoperability but able to survive on single-market dominance (hobbyists, 
then education, then graphic design, then PDA’s…)

Tandy: Support every architecture, often 2 at a time in the same box:
Mixed record, some winners and some losers; Software development often 
lagging sorely behind hardware, ultimately not successful.

TI: Single-architecture, lock-in software ecosystem
Substantial money-loser even with potentially world-beating hardware 
(CPU); software achilles heel along with architecture bottlenecks on 
performance.

others?

There are many complicating factors, of course. E.g. embedded systems 
have very different requirements from CAD workstations. Should a company 
maintain different architectures to support both, and how compatible should 
they be? 
It looks to me like really strong support for outside developers is key 
for hardware providers, whether that is in the form of a cheap and effective 
development toolkit and good developer’s forum or a completely open 
architecture.

- Mark

Re: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer

[dwight via cctalk]

Just out of curiosity, you might try a little extra fine sand paper on the 
button. You have little to loose as it doesn't work anyway.

Dwight




From: cctech  on behalf of shad via cctech 

Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 12:09:49 PM
To: cct...@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer

Hello,
this kind of keyboards was made using small pieces of conductive rubber to
close the circuit designed on the PCB.
The rubber was an uniform compound, so even with severe usage, i.e. high
consumption, the conductivity remained constant.
However, in more recent / cheaper products, the rubber is the same for the
whole keyboard, i.e. simple insulating silicone rubber.
The conductive surface is only painted over the silicone.
No doubt it comes away faster...
In this case, cleaning with alcohol just removes the remaining paint,
referring the keyboard useless.

The solution is simple: cover the key contacts with something conductive.
I know that conductive paint is sold somewhere, but it's pricey and don't
think it would last much...
The cheapo solution is to cut small pieces of aluminum foil, and glue it to
the rubber.
Given that the keyboard is almost always made by silicone, I always use
silicone glue to assure the sickness.
Be careful to put a very thin layer of it only over the center of the foil,
then put it in place and press a bit around with the fingertip to let it
take the shape of the contract.
Too much silicone would come out when pressed and would cover the graphite
on the PCB.
This method worked well with several TV remote controls.
I could suggest you to try with one key,
then let the silicone to dry before remounting the keyboard, then check the
result and eventually repeat on other keys.

Andrea

Re: Visiting Boston - Classic computer recommendations

[Evan Koblentz via cctalk]

I’m in Boston MA (technically Canton) for the next three weeks (April 29 to May 
19). Looking for recommendations on classic computer/classic car/sailing things 
of interest to do on the weekends.


- Visit the Science building at Harvard U. (Cambridge), where they have 
(most of) the Mark-1 computer on display from the 1940s


- MIT Press bookstore (Cambridge)

- Not vintage, but you must visit You-Do-It Electronics in a town called 
Needham

Re: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer

[shadoooo via cctalk]

Hello,
this kind of keyboards was made using small pieces of conductive rubber to
close the circuit designed on the PCB.
The rubber was an uniform compound, so even with severe usage, i.e. high
consumption, the conductivity remained constant.
However, in more recent / cheaper products, the rubber is the same for the
whole keyboard, i.e. simple insulating silicone rubber.
The conductive surface is only painted over the silicone.
No doubt it comes away faster...
In this case, cleaning with alcohol just removes the remaining paint,
referring the keyboard useless.

The solution is simple: cover the key contacts with something conductive.
I know that conductive paint is sold somewhere, but it's pricey and don't
think it would last much...
The cheapo solution is to cut small pieces of aluminum foil, and glue it to
the rubber.
Given that the keyboard is almost always made by silicone, I always use
silicone glue to assure the sickness.
Be careful to put a very thin layer of it only over the center of the foil,
then put it in place and press a bit around with the fingertip to let it
take the shape of the contract.
Too much silicone would come out when pressed and would cover the graphite
on the PCB.
This method worked well with several TV remote controls.
I could suggest you to try with one key,
then let the silicone to dry before remounting the keyboard, then check the
result and eventually repeat on other keys.

Andrea

Re: TRS-80 Fragmentation

[Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:53 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


> I see that the actual fragmentation is about how each and everyone got in
> touch with computers, personal or mainframe or whatever! Me, I was in
> junior high and usually understood everything in the math class by the
> first 15 minutes, after which I would become restless (bored) and the
> teacher would send me several buildings away to inquire about the room
> temperature of the computer room, which hosted an HP3000 system with
> several terminals (that included primitive graphics capabilities via serial
> connection!).  It was 1978, and I learned BASIC right there. Afterwards, it
> was Apple II and their Franklin clones as a freshman, running UCSD
> Pascal... in 1982.  Later it was the Z80 card in the same computers,
> running CPM, but just for the sake of using the Z80 assembler tools.  And
> we were using also the said Apple II to impersonate card readers that would
> send jobs to the IBM 4381, as a sophomore... My dad bought me an HP71B
> calculator in 1984, and that really was when my numerical math skills
> progressed.  I still do that for a living.  And the height of my BS
> years... getting to run MATLAB in an IBM-AT with a math co-processor.
> Later, as a teacher, getting my first BITNET email account in 1987,
> learning XENIX, wiring phonenet for the Mac network at the university, then
> as a grad student (1989) using VAX machines at UW-Madison, but also Apollo
> machines, Sun 4/50  machines, and HP-300 machines... and in1990, I
> telnet-ed to UCSD to run jobs in a Cray at UCSD...  whoa, such memories...
>

Don't get me wrong. Like you I learned a lot due to all the variety of
differing machines that were available in the market early on. From a
business perspective I don't think it made a lot of sense however to have
so many internally competing models.

Of course then, I guess you could argue that Atari probably had the most
cohesive set of computers, but that didn't necessarily translate to great
success. I guess that did mostly work for Apple with the II line, save for
the major III distraction.

Re: TRS-80 Fragmentation

[Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 8:06 AM, geneb via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
> Then they upgraded the model 1 to reduce the cords and cables, and made
>> the Model 3.  I don't know whether the resemblance to the Northstar
>> Dimension was deliberate.
>>
>>
> I think the primary driver for the Model III was that the Model I would no
> longer pass the FCC emission tests due to regulation changes.
>
>
I've heard this before too, which is all the more curious considering that
the original Atari 400/800 machines were hampered in their construction due
to RFI restrictions by the FCC earlier on that were relaxed later. I wonder
how much better off Atari would have been if they were able to fit a simple
metal shield instead of that crazy cast metal PCB enclosure. I have also
heard that the CRT sold for the Model I had some safety concerns? I think
that was just a rebadged RCA TV set with the tuner section removed?

Supposedly the RFI restrictions is one of the reasons that Apple didn't
include an RF modulator under the hood (and presumably TI on the 99/4(a)).

Re: TRS-80 Fragmentation

[Peter Cetinski via cctalk]

Excuse my long post, but I get excited whenever I can talk about the Model 16. 
:)  I will expound a bit on what was already mentioned.

The Model 16 was an engineering marvel.  It was released in 1982 in the same 
form factor as the venerable Model II.  It was essentially an upgraded Model 
II.  In fact, the Model II could be upgraded to mostly Model 16 specs via an 
upgrade kit.  The 16 was a dual processor machine with 2 independent computer 
systems running in parallel, one a Z80 and the other a MC68000.  The Z80 side 
of the machine ran just as it did on the Model II.  This was a big advantage in 
that the machine could run the entire Model II library of programs.  The 68K 
subsystem consisted of a CPU card and one or more memory cards which shared 
their own independent bus (via ribbon cables) from the Z80 bus.  

When the 16 was running with a 68K OS, the Z80 subsystem controlled all I/O via 
the main computer bus.  The Z80 and 68K communicate via shared memory in the 
68K memory space with both sides essentially rapidly polling certain locations 
for requests and responses placed in memory.  There was a facility available in 
the 16 for the 68K to interrupt the Z80, but since the Model II with the Model 
16 upgrade did not have this capability, no operating systems took advantage of 
this feature AFAIK since the percentage of machines using the upgrade was 
significant.  One cool feature is that the Z80 could bank switch in 16K of any 
location on the 68K memory so Z80 programs run on the Model 16 could use the 
68K memory without a 68K OS. 

When it was released in 1982, the Model 16 came with TRSDOS-16.  This was 
essentially a MC68000 runtime that ran on the 68K boards.  With TRSDOS-16, the 
Z80 side of the machine ran the Z80 TRSDOS-II OS.  A huge issue was that the 
Model 16 was released with almost no software ready to take advantage of the 
68K.  This was a classic case of the hardware way ahead of the software.  This 
resulted in Tandy actually including a copy of the Assembler 16 with every 
Model 16 sold so that customers could write their own software.  TRSDOS-16 had 
many limitations, a few of which was that it was only single user and that the 
assembler used non-standard 68K mnemonics.

Tandy knew they needed a multi-user system for the system to succeed, and was 
considering Unos as the solution when for whatever reason they could not make 
that happen.  They then pivoted to XENIX which was finally released maybe a 
year or so after the machine.  The initial releases were rushed and as a result 
very buggy.  Tandy lost a lot of market time advantage due to this fumble.  
However, XENIX ultimately did well on the platform.  So much so that a year 
later the Model 16B, which was a 68K version of the Model II’s successor, the 
Model 12, was the most popular Unix based workstation on the market.  An 
upgrade of the machine to the Tandy 6000 a year or so later saw an increase in 
processing power.  But by then, we all know the story of the IBM PCs 
architecture dominance of the market and Tandy’s attempts to succeed in that 
area.  This caused internal business conflicts which eventually doomed the 
MC68000 architecture at the company.

Re: TRS-80 Fragmentation

[geneb via cctalk]

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

Then they upgraded the model 1 to reduce the cords and cables, and made the 
Model 3.  I don't know whether the resemblance to the Northstar Dimension was 
deliberate.




I think the primary driver for the Model III was that the Model I would no 
longer pass the FCC emission tests due to regulation changes.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: TRS-80 Fragmentation

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 04/26/2018 10:00 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 7:18 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> D'ya mean like an automobile company making more than one model?  Surely
>> there is no need for Toyota to make both a Corolla AND a Camry!
>>
>>
> Hmm... not really sure about that comparison. After all, it's not like the
> Corolla and Camry need different fuel and/or travel on separate roads.
> Plus, I expect that despite their many differences there are probably quite
> a few fundamental similarities (similar stereos, HVAC controls, brake
> components, etc).
>
> The Model 1 was a wild venture into a field that they knew little about,

At that point in time it was a field everybody knew little about.
>> and didn't know what to expect.
>> Ask Allison about what they expected.
>> It turned out that what they made was surprisingly close to correct for
>> people like US.
>> Well, other than 16 lines by 64 characters of B, and a memory map that
>> was not compatible with CP/M.
>>
> I guess they fixed that by the time the 4 came along.

CP/M ran on the Model I and the Model III.  CP/M was a very adaptable OS.

>
>
>
>> But what about pocket computers, PDAs, calculators?  Have to come out with
>> some offerings there.
>>
> Well, like I said before. I think you could easily dismiss the calculators
> and PDAs, since they were more of an appliance (i.e. create text documents
> that are easily interchangeable with other machines). Heck even a lot of
> the early PDAs could create spreadsheets that were compatible with Lotus
> 1-2-3, even moreso in some cases they were built in applications.
>
>
>> Would they have been more successful if the model 2000 had been a PC
>> clone, instead of "better than"?
>>
> Well, in some respects they eventually managed to do that with the Tandy
> 1000s... some incompatibilities aside.

Tandy wasn't the only one who tried to do better.  Look at the NEC APC.
Quad Density Double Sided 8" disks. High density color graphics with 256
colors.  Dismal failure in the market because it wasn't fully "IBM 
Compatible".
The follow-on NEC APC/III was a great big step backwards.

bill

Re: Visiting Boston - Classic computer recommendations (Huw Davies)

[Michael Thompson via cctalk]

The KS10 is at my house, along with my DEC, SGI, and Sun collection.

I have a DEUNA and another Unibus Ethernet board, but have not installed them.

At the Lab, we have a PDP-12, and a PDP-8/I that are running. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 27, 2018, at 1:30 AM, Lars Brinkhoff  wrote:
> 
> Michael Thompson wrote:
>> Please visit us at the Rhode Island Computer Museum. About 60 miles south
>> of boaton.
>> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/
> 
> If I do, I'd expect ITS to be up and running before I left.
> 
> Do you have anything for KS10 networking?  IMP, Chaos, Ethernet?

Re: Rick Dickinson, ZX Spectrum designer, RIP

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 at 00:48, Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> The Honda 600 was NOT a bike. Well, mostly not.  After demise of the mid
> 1960s Honda S600/S800 ("poor-man's-Ferrari" design exercise that got out
> of hand and went into production), Honda engineers took a 360CC parallel
> twin, detuned it and upped it to 600cc, added a differential, and a
> reverse (tacked on to the outside of the case), and put it in a car body
> that resembled the Mini.  AN600 was the first Hondas officially imported
> into USA (1970).  A later Z600 had a "sportier" body, and one was cut in
> half in the down-under movie "Malcolm"

Never heard of any of them. I guess they were not sold outside North
America and Japan.

Kei cars are extremely rare in Europe as there is no financial advantage or
incentive to own them, and without that, they're cramped and overpowered.

Oddly, the 600cc "supersport" motorcycle category is huge, in contract,
because insurance is much cheaper for machines of 600cc or less.

But I know little of cars. Evil tin boxes, to me as a bicyclist and
motorcyclist, generally driven by homicidal morons.

> He was into music, and wanted MIDI, etc.

Then the Atari ST would have been a better bet, no? Although of course it
came some years later than MSX.

> And, of course, he never mastered conversion of the Ensoniq Mirage disks.
> (each track had 1024 byte sectors numbered 0 through 4, and a 512 byte
> sector #5)

O_o

> > Mindset?
> Obscure 80186 MS-DOS machine with interesting graphics innovations and no
> market.  Designed by es-Atari engineers.

*Googles*

Nifty but even in 1984 I think I could have told you that that was a
heavily-compromised design...

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
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