Re: Bill Godbout R.I.P.
I got to meet him a few times @ the San Mateo electronics swap meet. It was the huge version before all had petered out into small events. He loved to auction off the good stuff, and would bring both Godbout branded and Compupro stuff. The latter was as solidly tested and engineered of course as anything eve made for any standard or computer. So sad to hear of this. Thanks Jim On 11/12/2018 8:14 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Best RAM cards of the early S-100 era through into the 1980's / Compupro era. b On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:38 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Google has no mention. Yet. On Mon, 12 Nov 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Bill's family confirms and has set up a GoFundMe page for his wife and son: https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund That is, indeed, truly tragic. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
Guy said > Hmm, I posted to the list about this 3 hours ago, and it hasn't appeared yet. > Is there an extra vetting process for posts that include links to web sites? > I included various links to font searching sites, cleaned-up samples of the > DEC fonts > from my own scan (online) of a DEC PDP-8/S panel, and specific fonts I found > via > search tools - that are very close or identical matches to the DEC panel > fonts. > > Should I repost, or just wait till it appears? > > Guy I sometimes find delays posting to cctalk when I (located +10 GMT) post before 10am local time, ie. it is still the previous day on the cctalk server and most of the rest of the world. My post seems to disappear for up to ten hours or so. I don't recall any trouble when I post after 10am local time, it appears pretty much immediately. Well that's what it seems to be like, I could be wrong but I don't worry about it too much. Regarding fonts on reproduced panels. This is a common problem in vintage vehicle restoration when reproduction dataplates are made and sold. Some of the repos are redrawn on computer and retyped with a close font. However this isn't really good enough for a demanding restorer. I've even seen a repro nomenclature plate with a typo, which would be annoying considering the cost of some of these things. If you have access to the original, nothing really beats reproducing the _image_ of the panel with all its nuanced spacing, miniscule changes in letter size and orientation and the like rather than recreating the panel. In Noel's case the originals are probably not at hand, so there is obviously no choice but to recreate them. I can't help with the font but it makes me think of the curved font on the front of the PDP-11 consoles and in the handbook where the lowercase t has a different length depending on whether it is in or at the end of a word. Steve.
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
[Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. These panels do appear to be typeset using commercial fonts, and yes in theory, we can track those down. On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: Hmm, I posted to the list about this 3 hours ago, and it hasn't appeared yet. Is there an extra vetting process for posts that include links to web sites? I included various links to font searching sites, cleaned-up samples of the DEC fonts from my own scan (online) of a DEC PDP-8/S panel, and specific fonts I found via search tools - that are very close or identical matches to the DEC panel fonts. Should I repost, or just wait till it appears? I received it, and replied. I top-posted, which I don't usually do, in order to not trim the useful information that you had supplied. Then, Toby replied to my post. You just replied to Toby's post. So, yes, at least some of us got your post.
RE: Font for DEC indicator panels
I have a large library of inlay panel pictures. I’m sure I did some drawings with text when I did the blank panels. (Just the holes for the lamps) I’ll have a look. If not I’ll match a font to a picture. Rod Smallwood Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Guy Dunphy via cctalk Sent: 13 November 2018 04:30 To: Toby Thain; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Font for DEC indicator panels At 09:58 PM 12/11/2018 -0500, you wrote: >On 2018-11-12 9:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> [Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] >> >> IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. >> >> But, it is extremely likely that they did NOT use a commercial font, and >> either had their graphics art people draw the characters as needed, or >> used reference patterns of their own that are NOT incorporated into a >> computer font. > >These panels do appear to be typeset using commercial fonts, and yes in >theory, we can track those down. > >--Toby Hmm, I posted to the list about this 3 hours ago, and it hasn't appeared yet. Is there an extra vetting process for posts that include links to web sites? I included various links to font searching sites, cleaned-up samples of the DEC fonts from my own scan (online) of a DEC PDP-8/S panel, and specific fonts I found via search tools - that are very close or identical matches to the DEC panel fonts. Should I repost, or just wait till it appears? Guy
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
At 09:58 PM 12/11/2018 -0500, you wrote: >On 2018-11-12 9:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> [Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] >> >> IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. >> >> But, it is extremely likely that they did NOT use a commercial font, and >> either had their graphics art people draw the characters as needed, or >> used reference patterns of their own that are NOT incorporated into a >> computer font. > >These panels do appear to be typeset using commercial fonts, and yes in >theory, we can track those down. > >--Toby Hmm, I posted to the list about this 3 hours ago, and it hasn't appeared yet. Is there an extra vetting process for posts that include links to web sites? I included various links to font searching sites, cleaned-up samples of the DEC fonts from my own scan (online) of a DEC PDP-8/S panel, and specific fonts I found via search tools - that are very close or identical matches to the DEC panel fonts. Should I repost, or just wait till it appears? Guy
Re: Bill Godbout R.I.P.
Best RAM cards of the early S-100 era through into the 1980's / Compupro era. b On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:38 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Google has no mention. Yet. > > On Mon, 12 Nov 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Bill's family confirms and has set up a GoFundMe page for his wife and > son: > > > > https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund > > That is, indeed, truly tragic. > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com >
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
On 2018-11-12 9:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > [Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] > > IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. > > But, it is extremely likely that they did NOT use a commercial font, and > either had their graphics art people draw the characters as needed, or > used reference patterns of their own that are NOT incorporated into a > computer font. These panels do appear to be typeset using commercial fonts, and yes in theory, we can track those down. --Toby
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
[Top posted to avoid trimming information that might be useful to many] IFF DEC used a commercial font, then it should be possible to find it. But, it is extremely likely that they did NOT use a commercial font, and either had their graphics art people draw the characters as needed, or used reference patterns of their own that are NOT incorporated into a computer font. Were these DEC "fonts" fully formed, or a very fine bit pattern? Those sites should be excellent for finding something CLOSE. Maybe "close enough". Or close enough to use as a starting point for creating a new computer font based on the examples that are extant. Back in the day, before all of the look and smell IP law, font bit patterns were often considered to NOT be copyrightable. But the NAMES were trademarkable. Thus, MANY created fonts LIKE Helvetica and Times Roman, but could not CALL THEM THAT, because Merganthaler? owned that name. If creating a font, even one intended to resemble an existing one, the artistic temperament would usually make a few things different, to be "better", or just a personal touch. For simple stuff, such as this, which isn't even an entire character set, there were quite a few relatively easy to use font editors. For example, I used the POEMS font editor to create a few fonts for Cordata (Corona Data Systems) printers and HP LaserJet. I had a relatively trivial project, and the part that got finished included screen fonts (including reverse video, which HP told me would be "impossible"), and keycap fonts, for documentation. Using my screen capture program(s) Sybex used them heavily for books for DOS programs. I used a Cordata printer for my software, but used POEMS to make HPLJ versions of my fonts. I also created some 5x7, 7x9, 9x12 HPLJ fonts, that I jokingly called "FICHE fonts", that permitted me to print dozens of pages onto each sheet of paper. In those days, I could easily READ those on a table while standing and lecturing to classes! Now, I need +2.5 diopters to read and text at all :-( FONTOGRAPHER was generally considered better, and had capability of both HP LaserJet and Postscript, but, as you said, there was a learning curve. There were many others. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: As for the fonts, do you know about 'font identifier' sites online? For eg: http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/ Seen a font in use and want to know what it is? Submit an image to WhatTheFont to find the closest matches in our database. Or, let cloak-draped font enthusiasts lend a hand in the WhatTheFont Forum http://www.fontsquirrel.com/ http://www.1001freefonts.com/ https://www.fontzillion.com/fonts http://www.fontspace.com/ https://www.urbanfonts.com/fonts/top-100-fonts.htm https://fonts.adobe.com/ (req creative cloud subscription) https://edgewebfonts.adobe.com/ see https://edgewebfonts.adobe.com/help On my scan of the PDP-8/S panel, I see at least 3, probably 4 different fonts. The registers text looks a bit like Futura, but isn't quite. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-font-did-tektronix-use-in-their-manualsequipment-1960s/ Using these B&W samples: http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/fonts/ looking them up on http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/ I get font_1 "ACCUMULATOR" https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/basic-commercial-soft-rounded/pro-black/ font_2 "CORPORATION" lots of close ones, maybe https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/eurostile/t-regular-extended/ font_3 "digital" urrgh, fails. I need to clean up the image more. font_4 "PDP-8/S" maybe https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/bitstream/square-721/extended/ I suppose the people from DEC's art department are passed away by now, and all the records are gone? If you want to be precise, the best way to do it is to learn to use a font design utility, scan the panels, and construct a new font exactly matching the character outlines. But this is a somewhat steep learning curve. By the way, I'm looking for the full schematics sheets for the PDP-8/S (serial #700, backplane "LOGIC 770-P") with the circuit of the front panel lights board. Also photos of the front and back of the lights PCB, since I have to make a new one. (But with LEDs.) Guy At 03:04 PM 12/11/2018 -0500, you wrote: So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html or, at least, a very close match? For mockups we're doing, Dave B is using 'DejaVu Sans', but that's not a really close match: the vertical bars are wider than in the DEC font, where the verticals and horizontals are the same width. It would be nice to have a closer match when we go to turn out replicas. (We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D panels.)
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
On 2018-11-12 8:49 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 11/12/2018 04:14 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/12/18 5:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> The name of the font translates to "Bold Extended". DIN 1451 is a >>> family of fonts, see Wikipedia. You're looking at one of the members >>> of the family, the bold wide one. It's not all that bold, judging by >>> the pictures; if you need something bolder still you may be out of luck. >> >> I hadn't meant to send that message to the list, sorry, but since I did, >> here it is with Alte Haas Grotesk. >> >> http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f-altehaasgrotesk.pdf >> >> >> > Hmmm, that one DOES look closer to DEC panels that I remember. > > Jon > The actual font is _not_ Alte Haas Grotesk, however. Alte Haas Grotesk is only about 11 years old, and is a distressed (novelty) copy of Haas Grotesk -- which is another name for Helvetica. Not all the panels are the same font. None are Helvetica (key characters, like capital R, C, and digits, are obviously different). Akzidenz Grotesk is closer, especially to RF08 and TC08, but still not a perfect match for all panels - e.g. the DX11 shows digits, and a capital C, that is different from AG (and different from RF08 & TC08). I would probably start with the DX11 panel (more than one font has been used, but most seem to be like this one). The capital C, M, W, R, X and digits would be key characters to match in other candidates in the grotesque/sans family. (For one survey of that family, that puts Helvetica in relative context, see https://acumin.typekit.com/history/) So you can only hope to be "close", really. As I said, proper identification would ideally need better images and access to type specimen books for the period. I don't currently have access to all of mine but if you want more effort on this identification I know people who can help. --Toby
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
Hi Noel, That site is a fine project. Here's another front panel image, of a PDP-8/S, from my restoration work on one (just starting.) http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm Specifically: http://everist.org/NobLog/pics/20181104/fascia_2000.jpg Feel free to use it. That image is a rushed stitch of two scan images, and has some flaws. I'll be doing a better job sometime (after a few other urgent chores), ending up with a nice clean image with posterized colors. As for the fonts, do you know about 'font identifier' sites online? For eg: http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/ Seen a font in use and want to know what it is? Submit an image to WhatTheFont to find the closest matches in our database. Or, let cloak-draped font enthusiasts lend a hand in the WhatTheFont Forum http://www.fontsquirrel.com/ http://www.1001freefonts.com/ https://www.fontzillion.com/fonts http://www.fontspace.com/ https://www.urbanfonts.com/fonts/top-100-fonts.htm https://fonts.adobe.com/ (req creative cloud subscription) https://edgewebfonts.adobe.com/ see https://edgewebfonts.adobe.com/help On my scan of the PDP-8/S panel, I see at least 3, probably 4 different fonts. The registers text looks a bit like Futura, but isn't quite. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-font-did-tektronix-use-in-their-manualsequipment-1960s/ Using these B&W samples: http://everist.org/pics/PDP-8S/fonts/ looking them up on http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/ I get font_1 "ACCUMULATOR" https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/basic-commercial-soft-rounded/pro-black/ font_2 "CORPORATION" lots of close ones, maybe https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/eurostile/t-regular-extended/ font_3 "digital" urrgh, fails. I need to clean up the image more. font_4 "PDP-8/S" maybe https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/bitstream/square-721/extended/ I suppose the people from DEC's art department are passed away by now, and all the records are gone? If you want to be precise, the best way to do it is to learn to use a font design utility, scan the panels, and construct a new font exactly matching the character outlines. But this is a somewhat steep learning curve. By the way, I'm looking for the full schematics sheets for the PDP-8/S (serial #700, backplane "LOGIC 770-P") with the circuit of the front panel lights board. Also photos of the front and back of the lights PCB, since I have to make a new one. (But with LEDs.) Guy At 03:04 PM 12/11/2018 -0500, you wrote: >So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > >or, at least, a very close match? > >For mockups we're doing, Dave B is using 'DejaVu Sans', but that's not a >really close match: the vertical bars are wider than in the DEC font, where >the verticals and horizontals are the same width. > >It would be nice to have a closer match when we go to turn out replicas. >(We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D panels.) > > Noel > >
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
I hadn't meant to send that message to the list, sorry, but since I did, here it is with Alte Haas Grotesk. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f-altehaasgrotesk.pdf On Mon, 12 Nov 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: Hmmm, that one DOES look closer to DEC panels that I remember. Surely there are enough clear and accurate images, but is there enough interest to use a font editor to edit something that is CLOSE into an exact font? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
On 11/12/2018 04:14 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: On 11/12/18 5:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: The name of the font translates to "Bold Extended". DIN 1451 is a family of fonts, see Wikipedia. You're looking at one of the members of the family, the bold wide one. It's not all that bold, judging by the pictures; if you need something bolder still you may be out of luck. I hadn't meant to send that message to the list, sorry, but since I did, here it is with Alte Haas Grotesk. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f-altehaasgrotesk.pdf Hmmm, that one DOES look closer to DEC panels that I remember. Jon
Re: Bill Godbout R.I.P.
Google has no mention. Yet. On Mon, 12 Nov 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Bill's family confirms and has set up a GoFundMe page for his wife and son: https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund That is, indeed, truly tragic. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Bill Godbout
On 11/12/2018 7:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 11/12/18 1:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Google has no mention. Yet. How can we confirm? Bill's family confirms and has set up a GoFundMe page for his wife and son: https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund --Chuck Oh, how absolutely horrible and tragic. As a decades long CompuPro user, it's incredibly sad for me that Mr. Godbout lost his life - especially in this unimaginably terrible manner. - J.
Re: Bill Godbout
On 11/12/18 1:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Google has no mention. Yet. > How can we confirm? Bill's family confirms and has set up a GoFundMe page for his wife and son: https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund --Chuck
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
On 2018-11-12 5:24 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-11-12 5:04 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 4:52 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> > "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the > font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the > switches. Yeah, that latter is the one we're looking for (mostly). >>> >>> >>> I was able to download a version of that one that worked but I don't >>> think I like the results. One problem is that the instance of the font >>> I found didn't have a bold face version. You can see the results here. >>> >>> http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f.pdf >> >> The name of the font translates to "Bold Extended". DIN 1451 is a family of >> fonts, see Wikipedia. You're looking at one of the members of the family, >> the bold wide one. It's not all that bold, judging by the pictures; if you >> need something bolder still you may be out of luck. >> >> That also suggests that the DEC font isn't this one. Could it simply be >> Helvetica? > > ... I just posted that the closest I know of off the top of my head is > Akzidenz Grotesk. (Indeed it's not DIN.) Maybe my message from 1.5 hours ago didn't get through. Here's the family I mean; I'm suggesting something around Medium weight, depending on silk screen spread, etc. https://www.bertholdtypes.com/font/akzidenz-grotesk/proplus/ --Toby > > To get closer I'd need better images of the panels. > > --Toby > > > >> >> paul >> >> > >
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
On 2018-11-12 5:04 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Nov 12, 2018, at 4:52 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the switches. >>> >>> Yeah, that latter is the one we're looking for (mostly). >> >> >> I was able to download a version of that one that worked but I don't >> think I like the results. One problem is that the instance of the font >> I found didn't have a bold face version. You can see the results here. >> >> http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f.pdf > > The name of the font translates to "Bold Extended". DIN 1451 is a family of > fonts, see Wikipedia. You're looking at one of the members of the family, > the bold wide one. It's not all that bold, judging by the pictures; if you > need something bolder still you may be out of luck. > > That also suggests that the DEC font isn't this one. Could it simply be > Helvetica? ... I just posted that the closest I know of off the top of my head is Akzidenz Grotesk. (Indeed it's not DIN.) To get closer I'd need better images of the panels. --Toby > > paul > >
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
On 11/12/18 5:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > The name of the font translates to "Bold Extended". DIN 1451 is a family of > fonts, see Wikipedia. You're looking at one of the members of the family, > the bold wide one. It's not all that bold, judging by the pictures; if you > need something bolder still you may be out of luck. I hadn't meant to send that message to the list, sorry, but since I did, here it is with Alte Haas Grotesk. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f-altehaasgrotesk.pdf > That also suggests that the DEC font isn't this one. Could it simply be > Helvetica? Entirely possible. Found this one that might look even more authentic. :-) https://www.1001fonts.com/helveticrap-font.html
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
> On Nov 12, 2018, at 4:52 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk > wrote: > > >>> "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the >>> font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the >>> switches. >> >> Yeah, that latter is the one we're looking for (mostly). > > > I was able to download a version of that one that worked but I don't > think I like the results. One problem is that the instance of the font > I found didn't have a bold face version. You can see the results here. > > http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f.pdf The name of the font translates to "Bold Extended". DIN 1451 is a family of fonts, see Wikipedia. You're looking at one of the members of the family, the bold wide one. It's not all that bold, judging by the pictures; if you need something bolder still you may be out of luck. That also suggests that the DEC font isn't this one. Could it simply be Helvetica? paul
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
> > "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the > > font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the > > switches. > > Yeah, that latter is the one we're looking for (mostly). I was able to download a version of that one that worked but I don't think I like the results. One problem is that the instance of the font I found didn't have a bold face version. You can see the results here. http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-f.pdf
Re: Bill Godbout
On Mon, 12 Nov 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: "drrt1...@gmail.com" posted on AFC this morning that Bill died in the Camp fire in Northern California on Thursday. Has anyone else heard about this? Google has no mention. Yet. How can we confirm? Hopefully, when they do find out, they will talk about his great contributions to the microcomputer industry, not just that that was where Gary Kildall was when IBM came a'calling. (although THAT might be what gets the news media to notice?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
> On Nov 12, 2018, at 4:25 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: > >> From: Jason T > >> According to my notes, for the VCFMW8 shirts ... I used DIN Next Pro >> Rounded Medium for the panel text, although the font I had in my work >> directory is "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the >> font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the >> switches. > > Yeah, that latter is the one we're looking for (mostly). (I tried downloading > a couple of copies, but for some reason I don't understand the font viewer on > my Windoze box wouldn't show them; from what I could see online, it looked > close.) The DEC font uses a zero with a slash, but it's otherwise close. For that, a capital O with a slash Ø would probably serve. Most fonts tend to come with a fair number of accented and otherwise modified letters, perhaps not enough for Vietnamese but often enough for European languages. paul
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
> From: Jason T > According to my notes, for the VCFMW8 shirts ... I used DIN Next Pro > Rounded Medium for the panel text, although the font I had in my work > directory is "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the > font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the > switches. Yeah, that latter is the one we're looking for (mostly). (I tried downloading a couple of copies, but for some reason I don't understand the font viewer on my Windoze box wouldn't show them; from what I could see online, it looked close.) The DEC font uses a zero with a slash, but it's otherwise close. > There is no reason to think these are the original DEC panel fonts, just > what I found to be "close enough" at the time. Understood. Thanks! Noel
Re: Another IC I Can't Identify
On 2018-Nov-11, at 2:04 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -Original Message- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent >> Hilpert via cctalk >> Sent: 11 November 2018 21:50 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Another IC I Can't Identify >> >> On 2018-Nov-11, at 1:32 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert via cctalk On 2018-Nov-11, at 11:52 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for all the replies. If that is indeed what it is, then I > still >>> have not been able to find the source of one of the signals that seems to be >>> causing the Reset, every pin I have found so far is an input, I have not found it connected to the output of anything yet :-( Have you tried the reverse? : follow an origin that you know should be controlling reset, such as the power-on indication from the PS, and see if >>> you can trace it to the CPU.= >>> >>> I have already found that source and it all looks OK. I think I have >>> identified another input to a NOR gate that is high and causing the >>> reset, but I can't find where it comes from. >>> >> >> Perhaps I'm not clear on what you're saying, I was taking you as meaning > you >> hadn't found a source driving the reset line. >> While you've found a PWR-OK signal and it looks good, have you found how >> it connects to the reset line? >> >> Reset-line arrangements on small machines aren't usually that complicated. >> (Usually the power-on signal source is a series RC combination (often with >> additional discretes such as diodes) between a power-bus and ground). >> >> Perhaps put up an image of the schematic you have so far. > > I have posted an image here: > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/system-board.png > > At the far right you will see a "To F11 Reset", my understanding is that > this is active High. I have determined that the D input on E141 is always > high. The CLR input on E141 is periodically set, thus causing a pulsing high > output on E141, leading to a pulsing Reset on the F11 chipset. Well that (the circuit, as much as is presented) is quite bizarre. There's not a lot to make sense of from what's shown. If it's really that complex then the question is why? What is all that complexity intended to do, for the sake of reset? Without understanding the intention you're stuck tracing your presumed faulty signal back hoping (luck) that you encounter a fault along the way. But it may be that the pulsing is not itself a fault, but an intended (perhaps looped-back) consequence of some more-distant condition (ala the watchdog timers others were mentioning earlier). Aside from continuing as you have been and hoping that you luck out, I'd be looking at options such as: - RE the whole thing and analyse it in entirety to figure out the intended reset operation. - Find the docs on the CPU and see if they could provide some explanation as to the intention, based on the CPU reset functionality. - Examine the schematics of other machines using the same CPU (as others have mentioned) to see if they have similar complexity around reset. - Double/triple check to ensure you haven't gone astray in the tracing. A note regarding E141, the 7474 (and following 74174) are edge-triggered, not transparent, and will require activity on the CLK input to produce a pulsing output (if PRE is fixed high), activity on the CLR input is not alone sufficient.
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
On 2018-11-12 3:04 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > > or, at least, a very close match? > > For mockups we're doing, Dave B is using 'DejaVu Sans', but that's not a > really close match: the vertical bars are wider than in the DEC font, where > the verticals and horizontals are the same width. > > It would be nice to have a closer match when we go to turn out replicas. > (We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D panels.) > >Noel > > I took a quick look... None of them are DIN, for what it's worth. It's somewhat close to Akzidenz Grotesk[1] - around Medium weight. The TC08 looks slightly compressed horizontally, so you might need to play with weights and transformations and letter spacing a little bit to match actual panels. To narrow it down farther I think we would need much better quality images. --Toby [1] https://www.bertholdtypes.com/font/akzidenz-grotesk/proplus/
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
> We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D > panels. PS: Here's the latest rev of our thinking: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/inlay-rk11-f3.pdf if anyone has any comments. (Since the format is entirely set by the FPGA, it's 'easy' to tweak it, if there's a desirable improvement.) It's not the same as the old DEC RK11-B/RK11-C or RP11-C inlays, in part because we want to be able to show the address, and on a QBUS machine, that's 22 bits. Also, many of the fields don't apply to the QSIC (e.g. internal drive signals, 36-bit data buffer on the RP11, etc); we figured it would be better to recycle those lights for something useful (e.g. the address and word count). Noel
Re: Font for DEC indicator panels
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:04 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > > or, at least, a very close match? According to my notes, for the VCFMW8 shirts (http://vcfmw.org/shirts/vcfmw8_front.png) I used DIN Next Pro Rounded Medium for the panel text, although the font I had in my work directory is "DIN 1451 Fette Breitschrift 1936". That is probably the font next to the knob on the right and the bit numbers above the switches. The text inside the orange/yellow boxes (SRS) may well be Helvetica. There is no reason to think these are the original DEC panel fonts, just what I found to be "close enough" at the time. -j
Font for DEC indicator panels
So, anyone happen to know the font used in DEC's indicator panels: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html or, at least, a very close match? For mockups we're doing, Dave B is using 'DejaVu Sans', but that's not a really close match: the vertical bars are wider than in the DEC font, where the verticals and horizontals are the same width. It would be nice to have a closer match when we go to turn out replicas. (We're just about settled on the format for the QSIC RKV11-F/RPV11-D panels.) Noel
Re: IP address classes vs CIDR (was Re: Reviving ARPAnet)
mån 2018-02-05 klockan 10:31 -0700 skrev Grant Taylor via cctalk: > On 01/18/2018 12:23 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > You all talk about Proxy ARP in the past tense for some reason. :) > > You might find it entertaining to know that I was just talking with > colleagues that are currently using Proxy ARP to solve the lack of > subnet problem at 40 Gbps line rate. > > It's the same old problem, but this time it's how to sub-divide a > /26 > into a /27 and two /28s without the router for the /26 being re- > configured. > > So Proxy ARP FAR from dead. hostapd in some configurations does that ie proxies arp on the behalf of a phone for example. virtual switches can i believe be configured in a proxy arp configuration ie the host's OS proxies arp request from a switch/router.
Re: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:22 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/11/2018 11:36 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > > This is most likely correct. I re-installed the OS on a > > different SD card/SCSI2SD device and got a successful > > graphics boot up. Do SD cards drop bits or go bad? > > > UGH! Yes, they can. It SHOULD cause a device parity error, > but I guess some of their coverage is less than 100% You can buy "industrially rated" flash memory cards such as the "SanDisk Industrial" labelled ones, which seems to help based on my experience with SD cards in industrial controls systems at work. Absolutely avoid cheap SD cards though, they aren't usually good for more than a few re-writes in a digital camera type situation (linearly write the card, and then erase the whole thing, repeat). Things like swap files on SD/CF cards may wear them out in a couple of hours of use. Pat
Re: Bill Godbout
very sad Bill was one of my first large purchasers of surplus power cords... a nice guy and always paid on time this is very sad. In a message dated 11/12/2018 10:25:25 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: On 11/12/2018 10:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > "drrt1...@gmail.com" posted on AFC this morning that Bill died in the Camp > fire in Northern California on Thursday. > Has anyone else heard about this? > > WOW! Sad news! Jon
Re: Bill Godbout
='[ -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 12:25 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 11/12/2018 10:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > "drrt1...@gmail.com" posted on AFC this morning that Bill died in the > Camp fire in Northern California on Thursday. > > Has anyone else heard about this? > > > > > WOW! Sad news! > > Jon >
Re: Bill Godbout
On 11/12/2018 10:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: "drrt1...@gmail.com" posted on AFC this morning that Bill died in the Camp fire in Northern California on Thursday. Has anyone else heard about this? WOW! Sad news! Jon
Re: VAX 9440
On 11/12/2018 08:34 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: Some people are satisfied with the handheld vacuum desoldering irons, like the Hakko 808 (now replaced by Hakko FR-301). They're OK for some small I love my 808. Have used it heavily to re-cap arcade monitor chassis (15+) and all kinds of other circuit boards. Of course it doesn't work well when the component lead is super tight to the plate through hole, but that is an issue for wick as well. Friend swears by Pace stations. Yes, I have 2 Pace desoldering stations. One at work has an internal vacuum pump, the one at home has a venturi system that requires an air compressor. But, they REALLY pull all the solder out of the hole, and when the last pin is cleared, the part just FALLS off the board. Jon
Re: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash
On 11/11/2018 11:36 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: This is most likely correct. I re-installed the OS on a different SD card/SCSI2SD device and got a successful graphics boot up. Do SD cards drop bits or go bad? UGH! Yes, they can. It SHOULD cause a device parity error, but I guess some of their coverage is less than 100% perfect. But, there are LOTS of reports of bad SD cards, cards with dramatically less capacity than stated on the outside, early failure after just a few hundred writes, lots of reports of total corruption when power is dropped without warning, etc. Just read the horror stories online. Jon
Bill Godbout
"drrt1...@gmail.com" posted on AFC this morning that Bill died in the Camp fire in Northern California on Thursday. Has anyone else heard about this?
desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440)
On 11/12/18 7:24 AM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hot air setup is the next thing. > I was doing some board repair this weekend, and used a mix of Hakko 472 vacuum and hot air equipment. I was having trouble clearing the holes completely with the Hakko so I heated the board with a 1" hot air nozzle, pulled the part, then used an Edsyn Atmoscope to blow the holes clean. Cleaning the Hakko is SO much easier than a Pace (there is no glass to burn your fingers on). I'm not impressed with Weller vaccums either, though to be fair it's pretty old tech.
Re: VAX 9440
plus one for the hakko 808. Love it! Never leave home without it! From: cctalk on behalf of Ethan via cctalk Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 9:34 AM To: Eric Smith; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VAX 9440 > > Some people are satisfied with the handheld vacuum desoldering irons, like > the Hakko 808 (now replaced by Hakko FR-301). They're OK for some small I love my 808. Have used it heavily to re-cap arcade monitor chassis (15+) and all kinds of other circuit boards. Of course it doesn't work well when the component lead is super tight to the plate through hole, but that is an issue for wick as well. Friend swears by Pace stations. Recently picked up some Chinese soldering tweezers to aid in SMD capcitor replacement. So far not in love with them. Of course, all the SMD caps I want to remove have leaked electrolyte and the solder doesn't melt right. Hot air setup is the next thing.
Re: VAX 9440
Some people are satisfied with the handheld vacuum desoldering irons, like the Hakko 808 (now replaced by Hakko FR-301). They're OK for some small I love my 808. Have used it heavily to re-cap arcade monitor chassis (15+) and all kinds of other circuit boards. Of course it doesn't work well when the component lead is super tight to the plate through hole, but that is an issue for wick as well. Friend swears by Pace stations. Recently picked up some Chinese soldering tweezers to aid in SMD capcitor replacement. So far not in love with them. Of course, all the SMD caps I want to remove have leaked electrolyte and the solder doesn't melt right. Hot air setup is the next thing.
Re: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 9:33 AM Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > Yes, very easily. That is why I absolutely dislike solutions based on SD > cards (or on any kind of flash memory cards). > At least it is quite easy to make (image-based) backups of SD-cards, which might be helpful if the system you are using it in doesn't have a working backup solution. As always: make backups, and test that they work. Every storage medium breaks down sooner or later. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen
Re: DEC Alpha Bug Check Crash
On Mon, 12 Nov 2018, Douglas Taylor wrote: This is most likely correct. I re-installed the OS on a different SD card/SCSI2SD device and got a successful graphics boot up. Do SD cards drop bits or go bad? Yes, very easily. That is why I absolutely dislike solutions based on SD cards (or on any kind of flash memory cards). Christian
