Re: 8-Update
From: Anders Nelson via cctalk: Saturday, February 16, 2019 10:58 AM Oh boy, how did I miss that someone has created a front panel PCB layout for a PDP-8/e? Can you ask Vince to share that design please? Took me a bit of hunting to see how my name came up, as the thread is from a while back, and I had forgotten about it :-). I gather you are responding to: From: Rod G8DGR via cctalk: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:36 PM A friend has been able to 3D print toggle switch leavers that fit and work. Vince Sylngstat has done a console board PCB layout. (Slyngstad) In which case, switch handles can be found here: http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php (The FP end is facing you, so you may not instantly recognize it.) and the PCB can be found here: http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/8ePanel/ or by searching for "8/e front panel" on http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/boards.php and those have been out there for quite a while. Enjoy! Vince
Re: IBM 3174 C 6.4 Microcode Disks?
On 2/16/19 9:49 PM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: The 9121 voice server connected a T1 line to the RS/6000 for use by DT/6000. DT/6000 was used to create interactive phone menu systems. Is that by chance a 9291? Looks like a white / bage box with a grey strip on the front with lights or buttons and a serial port and ""phone (PSTN) network jack on the back? I suspect wherever I saw the term "bridge" used, it was used in the sense of providing IP connectivity from token ring to Ethernet, in the same sense that a physical bridge provides connectivity between two banks of a river. ACK Yes, that's what our RS/6000 was doing. It connected via token ring to the 3174 and screen scraped 3270 sessions to move data between its phone menu system and our mainframe. You might find this interesting: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/lan/ZZ78-0355-0_IBM_Token-Ring_Gateways_and_Bridges_Comparisons_and_Recommendations_Nov89.pdf Probably more show than is health in this day and age. I counter you with this: https://www.argecy.com/3174 I don't have it yet. If I'm able to get it with its config intact, I'll share what I can, minus any company specific details. Cool! Based on the Argecy link above, I'm guessing that it's likely routed TCP/IP. That would be the simplest option. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: IBM 3174 C 6.4 Microcode Disks?
Grant, On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 07:36:11PM -0700, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'm running into collisions with IBM 9121 and mainframe components. > Even that is vague. I'm not having nearly the luck I usually do looking > up IBM four digit model numbers. The 9121 voice server connected a T1 line to the RS/6000 for use by DT/6000. DT/6000 was used to create interactive phone menu systems. > So you had IP connectivity from Ethernet to Token Ring. That's trivial > to do. The Cisco 2513 would be a very good candidate router to do that. I suspect wherever I saw the term "bridge" used, it was used in the sense of providing IP connectivity from token ring to Ethernet, in the same sense that a physical bridge provides connectivity between two banks of a river. > I think it's also possible to have (Token Ring or Ethernet) network > connected clients telnet to and use the 3174 as a gateway to connect to > ESCON / Bus and Tag machines. Yes, that's what our RS/6000 was doing. It connected via token ring to the 3174 and screen scraped 3270 sessions to move data between its phone menu system and our mainframe. You might find this interesting: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/lan/ZZ78-0355-0_IBM_Token-Ring_Gateways_and_Bridges_Comparisons_and_Recommendations_Nov89.pdf > If the 2513 you have is the one that was used for this, I'd love to see > the config, if it's still on there. I don't have it yet. If I'm able to get it with its config intact, I'll share what I can, minus any company specific details. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
Re: PDP-11 disk image question
On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 10:53 AM Charles Anthony wrote: > > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 10:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> I used SIMH to build RSTS V9.6 on a simulated RA81 disk. I wrote the >> disk as a file to a CDR in CD9660 format. I moved the BA350 and the >> CD to a VS3100 running OpenBSD. I was able to mount the CD under >> OpenBSD and see the file containing the disk image. I used dd with >> the command given in my original message (and repeated above) to try >> to write the image to a real SCSI disk. When I try to boot it I get >> the RSTS Message "INIT.SYS not found". The disk was completely blank >> to start so the RSTS info must have been copied but apparently not >> copied correctly. >> >> Any more suggestions? >> > > My wild speculation would be disk geometry. I don't know the specific > geometry of the RA81 disk, but it is possible that SIMH is writing a sparse > disk image. > > Did some reading up on the RA81 and looked at the relevant SIMH code; it looks like the MSCP protocol is using Logical Block Addressing, which would tend to disprove my sparse disk speculation. -- Charles
Re: IBM 3174 C 6.4 Microcode Disks?
On 2/14/19 10:03 PM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: I also acquired an RS/6000 7012-340, its 7208 8mm tape drive, and a couple of 9121 voice servers. It used to run DirectTalk/6000. I'm running into collisions with IBM 9121 and mainframe components. Even that is vague. I'm not having nearly the luck I usually do looking up IBM four digit model numbers. I might have the terminology wrong. I not very familiar with the token ring side of things. By the time I got into mainframe operations about twenty years ago we only had a few token ring devices left. The RS/6000 mentioned above was only connected to the token ring side of our network. It connected to the 3174 via token ring to screen scrape emulated 3270 sessions. Before the RS/6000 was shut down, I was able to telnet to it from my PC, which was on the Ethernet side of the network. So you had IP connectivity from Ethernet to Token Ring. That's trivial to do. The Cisco 2513 would be a very good candidate router to do that. Many things can /route/ between Ethernet and Token Ring. There are only a few things (that I'm aware of) that can /bridge/ between Ethernet and Token Ring. Even then, the union of the type of traffic that works on both Ethernet and Token Ring is considerably smaller than either side. TCP/IP inside of 802.2 SNAP frames will work. But exceptionally little on the Ethernet side can, much less does, uses that for TCP/IP. It's possible, but not likely. I think it's far more likely that the 2513 was routing. It may have also been doing some sort of NAT / port forwarding (which is largely modifying the packet before it's routed). The router in is the Cisco 2500 series, perhaps a 2513. I found this photo on the net, which looks like the router in question, if I remember correctly: https://kyozoufs.blob.core.windows.net/filestoragetcdb/Pictures/_30/29886/29885389.jpg Yep. That's a quintessential Ethernet & Token Ring router. As for using telnet on the 3174, I'm going by what I've seen posted on Hercules mailing lists about how others have connected real terminals to the Hercules mainframe emulator. A few pictures of such terminals connected to Hercules can be found at: http://CoreStore.org/emuterm.htm I should look for more details. It sounds like some 3174's, with proper firmware, can actually function in both directions. Coax connected 3270 terminals using the 3174 as a gateway to connect to something across the network (Token Ring or maybe Ethernet) via telnet. I suspect this is what a number of Hercules systems are doing. I think it's also possible to have (Token Ring or Ethernet) network connected clients telnet to and use the 3174 as a gateway to connect to ESCON / Bus and Tag machines. The posts I've seen say one either needs a router to act as a token ring to Ethernet bridge, or a PC with both token ring and Ethernet cards in it to act as a bridge. I tend to agree. My only qualm / uncertanty is "bridge" vs "route". But this is likely the pedantic part of me that knows enough details to think "Wait, tab A doesn't directly fit in slot B, what gives?" in this situation. If the 2513 you have is the one that was used for this, I'd love to see the config, if it's still on there. That would very likely settle things for my curiosity. But that's likely not going to happen. 1) The config should have been wiped before leaving a business, and 2) you shouldn't show it to a stranger even if #1 didn't happen. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
corvus mirror
Anybody know where I can find a working Corvus Mirror? I have several h89/90 and 2 h8's, most still work.
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
On 2/16/19 3:37 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: Well, I got outta there with: - IBM 6360, $45 - IBM 4868-002, $20 - 10 pack DSDD soft sector 8" floppies, $10 - Life magazine from 1941 with pretty lady on the cover, $5 Okay. Did I get swindled or is this par for the course? From my naive point of view, those prices look reasonable. I would not feel bad if I left a swap meet having spent what you did. Are they a steal? I don't think so. Is it anything worth getting upset about, I doubt it. Can you do better, maybe. Is it worth arguing, probably not. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
No steals, but does seem quite reasonable. Well, depending on just HOW pretty the girl is. -- Will On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 5:37 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Well, I got outta there with: > > - IBM 6360, $45 > - IBM 4868-002, $20 > - 10 pack DSDD soft sector 8" floppies, $10 > - Life magazine from 1941 with pretty lady on the cover, $5 > > Did I get swindled or is this par for the course? > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 4:56 PM Peter Cetinski > > > > > On Feb 16, 2019, at 4:43 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > They have until the end of June 2019. > > >> > > > > Just my $0.02. When I was there last year they said the same thing. And > > prices were eBay level. If prices aren’t coming down a lot I suspect they > > may get their lease “extended”.
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
Well, I got outta there with: - IBM 6360, $45 - IBM 4868-002, $20 - 10 pack DSDD soft sector 8" floppies, $10 - Life magazine from 1941 with pretty lady on the cover, $5 Did I get swindled or is this par for the course? On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 4:56 PM Peter Cetinski > > On Feb 16, 2019, at 4:43 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > They have until the end of June 2019. > >> > > Just my $0.02. When I was there last year they said the same thing. And > prices were eBay level. If prices aren’t coming down a lot I suspect they > may get their lease “extended”.
Shock and vibration are legitimate diagnostic tools.
> > On Fri, 2019-02-15 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote:> > > > as These hardware wizard stories remind me of a legendary repair wizard, > non-computer industrial devices I think. He was called in to fix a > tricky problem at the customer site. Studied it for a while, took > out a small hammer, whacked the device at some spot, and reported > "fixed". He then sent in a bill for $500 That has been my line any time I've needed to know if a machine had a 'flaky'. Sometimes, on the phone, ask a customer to give the machine a kick. They always balk, but I tell them "Shock and vibration are legitimate diagnostic tools", and that usually convinces them. In situations I suspect the problem is a flaky, it often results in a 'working' system and the customer says "oh wow! you Fixed it!". To which I say NO NO NO. It is not Fixed, only the problem is now revealed. I'll be over shortly to actually bolt down what needs bolting or otherwise make the machine immune to shock and vibration. Best, Jeff
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
> On Feb 16, 2019, at 4:43 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: > > They have until the end of June 2019. >> Just my $0.02. When I was there last year they said the same thing. And prices were eBay level. If prices aren’t coming down a lot I suspect they may get their lease “extended”.
Re: Speaking of sounds made by machines
Of all machines I've used, the beloved Atari 8-bit is most vocal. It has the feature of 'i/o noise' by default. It can be disabled with a Poke, but every kind of io has distinctive sounds and actually represents the data being sent/received. If you disable it and crank the volume on your TV, you can STILL hear it, but very muted. I think this feature was created to conceal this fact... It isn't just the Atari8 that has this 'feature' in its muted version, all of the RF-TV-type machines from the 80's produce it. In theory, I think you could snoop the actual data, Tempest-like, using some radio gear. One gets very attuned to the noise and can tell the type of data being sent, (Text, vs Binary, for example) by ear. Of course, tracking noises from floppies and hard disks are also very useful indicators. In the 90's I got the hpfs386 driver out of a warp server pack and hung it on my warp 4 client. I LOVED hearing it hit the drive at boot. Boy howdy what a performance increase that gave. Best regards, Jeff On Fri, 2019-02-15 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote: > Speaking of sounds made by machines
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
They have until the end of June 2019. On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 4:24 PM William Donzelli Also, can you find out when they plan to close their doors and/or call > the scrapper? A timetable? > > Thank you for your effort so far. > > -- > Will > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 4:20 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: > > > > More photos posted to the album with some NIB DEC boards, look like a > > motherboard and CRT board, two of each. > > > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 1:51 PM Anders Nelson > wrote: > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I heard Kemners Surplus in Pottstown, PA was going away so I decided to > > > pay them a visit. I'm taking pictures of as much vintage computing > gear as > > > I can as we speak. I'll be here until they close today at 5pm EST, so > if > > > you see something you like feel free to give them a call and I'll help > them > > > navigate. > > > > > > Photos updated as I walk through, here: > > > > > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Q8Jx7n36fmVczLN8 > > > > > > If you see something you like it'd be great if you could check if I'm > > > interested first until I'm finished today. ;] > > > > > > Hope this helps someone, they shut down soon! > > > >
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
Also, can you find out when they plan to close their doors and/or call the scrapper? A timetable? Thank you for your effort so far. -- Will On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 4:20 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > More photos posted to the album with some NIB DEC boards, look like a > motherboard and CRT board, two of each. > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 1:51 PM Anders Nelson wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I heard Kemners Surplus in Pottstown, PA was going away so I decided to > > pay them a visit. I'm taking pictures of as much vintage computing gear as > > I can as we speak. I'll be here until they close today at 5pm EST, so if > > you see something you like feel free to give them a call and I'll help them > > navigate. > > > > Photos updated as I walk through, here: > > > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Q8Jx7n36fmVczLN8 > > > > If you see something you like it'd be great if you could check if I'm > > interested first until I'm finished today. ;] > > > > Hope this helps someone, they shut down soon! > >
Re: PDP-11 disk image question
On 2/16/19 3:57 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > >> On Feb 16, 2019, at 10:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> OK, as usual, I hac caused confusion and didn't get my point across. >> >> let's try with a detailed explanation of what I did that didn't seem >> to work. >> >> First, my hardware. I have a PDP-11/93 with a CMD SCSI Module and >> a BA350 with 6 2GB hard drives. The Module is set up to present RA81 >> disks and the first 3 disks have 4 partitions each which should work >> out to 12 RA81 disks. (But that last part is unimportant right now!) >> >> I used SIMH to build RSTS V9.6 on a simulated RA81 disk. I wrote the >> disk as a file to a CDR in CD9660 format. I moved the BA350 and the >> CD to a VS3100 running OpenBSD. I was able to mount the CD under >> OpenBSD and see the file containing the disk image. I used dd with >> the command given in my original message (and repeated above) to try >> to write the image to a real SCSI disk. When I try to boot it I get >> the RSTS Message "INIT.SYS not found". The disk was completely blank >> to start so the RSTS info must have been copied but apparently not >> copied correctly. >> >> Any more suggestions? > > That’s a really nice setup. > > I’ve had a theory for a while now, but never had cause to actually put it to > the test. RSTS/E would probably be why I would put it to the test. > > First some background. I’m far being skilled from RSTS/E, but I have managed > to get RSTS/E 10.1 and DECnet/E installed and running on my PDP-11/73, on a > SCSI drive. While I’ve been able to install RT-11 and RSX-11M+ from CD-R, I > wasn’t able to figure out how to do that with RSTS/E. With RT-11 or RSX I > boot from the CD-R, and do the install. The next option I have is a TLZ06 > drive, and I write the tapes with my Compaq XP1000/667 running OpenVMS. As I > recall, that worked fine for installing RSTS/E, but it wouldn’t work for > DECnet/E, for DECnet/E I had to actually install from a TK50 tape. > I guess I don't understand where you are getting bootable CDROM install media for any PDP-11 OS. I am not aware of any PDP-11 that supported CDROM as a boot device either. > Now for the theory… What if you do a ‘dd’ of the drive you want to install > it to. Then copy that image over to where you’re running SIMH, and use a > copy as your disk image for SIMH. Install RSTS/E, and write it back to the > simulated RA81 using dd. I do not know if this will work, but it’s something > I’ve wanted to try for a long time. Might be interesting to try. > > Another possibility is that you could be running into some sort of problem > with the RA81 simulation with the controller. Do you have the manual for the > Controller? If so what OS’s and versions does it say it supports? Out of > curiosity, which SCSI board are you using? I didn’t realize this was a > feature that the CMD controllers have. Will it simulate any other drives? I have the manual. I only chose RA81 as it was the biggest size disk supported by all the PDP-11 OSes. I would love to use bigger but you have to pick one in the configuration of the controller. You can choose to not emulate anything but I expect most PDP-11 OSes would have a problem installing to a very large, unspecified type, disk. I have a CQD=220A/MT configured for 6 disks and one tape. As for disk types, you can toggle RA ON or OFF on each drive. You can specify one RA type that will be in effect for any disk with RA ON. Types are: RA70, RA80, RA81, RA82, RA90 and RA92. OSes supported are VMS, Ultrix, Unix/Berkeley, RSX-11M, RSX-11M-Plus, RSTS/E, RT-11, DSM-11, ISM-11, TSX+, VAXELN and AT UNIX. Most recent versions of all of them. Or so it claims. The only OS I have ever had running on one of these cards was RT-11. I am just now getting around to trying to play with other OSes to see if they actually work. But, getting the OS onto the machine is a challenge all in itself, bill
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
More photos posted to the album with some NIB DEC boards, look like a motherboard and CRT board, two of each. On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 1:51 PM Anders Nelson Hi everyone, > > I heard Kemners Surplus in Pottstown, PA was going away so I decided to > pay them a visit. I'm taking pictures of as much vintage computing gear as > I can as we speak. I'll be here until they close today at 5pm EST, so if > you see something you like feel free to give them a call and I'll help them > navigate. > > Photos updated as I walk through, here: > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Q8Jx7n36fmVczLN8 > > If you see something you like it'd be great if you could check if I'm > interested first until I'm finished today. ;] > > Hope this helps someone, they shut down soon! >
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
On 2/16/19 1:53 PM, Anders Nelson wrote: They have probably 25 boxes of 10, 8" DSDD floppies each that are still in their sealed packaging if that's of interest! I'm personally not interested. But I've seen a lot of chatter recently about disks that IBM used in older equipment like the 3174 terminal controller (recently discussed). I have no idea if they are the same disks or not. If they are, I suspect there are some interested parties on this (and other) list. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: PDP-11 disk image question
> On Feb 16, 2019, at 10:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > OK, as usual, I hac caused confusion and didn't get my point across. > > let's try with a detailed explanation of what I did that didn't seem > to work. > > First, my hardware. I have a PDP-11/93 with a CMD SCSI Module and > a BA350 with 6 2GB hard drives. The Module is set up to present RA81 > disks and the first 3 disks have 4 partitions each which should work > out to 12 RA81 disks. (But that last part is unimportant right now!) > > I used SIMH to build RSTS V9.6 on a simulated RA81 disk. I wrote the > disk as a file to a CDR in CD9660 format. I moved the BA350 and the > CD to a VS3100 running OpenBSD. I was able to mount the CD under > OpenBSD and see the file containing the disk image. I used dd with > the command given in my original message (and repeated above) to try > to write the image to a real SCSI disk. When I try to boot it I get > the RSTS Message "INIT.SYS not found". The disk was completely blank > to start so the RSTS info must have been copied but apparently not > copied correctly. > > Any more suggestions? That’s a really nice setup. I’ve had a theory for a while now, but never had cause to actually put it to the test. RSTS/E would probably be why I would put it to the test. First some background. I’m far being skilled from RSTS/E, but I have managed to get RSTS/E 10.1 and DECnet/E installed and running on my PDP-11/73, on a SCSI drive. While I’ve been able to install RT-11 and RSX-11M+ from CD-R, I wasn’t able to figure out how to do that with RSTS/E. With RT-11 or RSX I boot from the CD-R, and do the install. The next option I have is a TLZ06 drive, and I write the tapes with my Compaq XP1000/667 running OpenVMS. As I recall, that worked fine for installing RSTS/E, but it wouldn’t work for DECnet/E, for DECnet/E I had to actually install from a TK50 tape. Now for the theory… What if you do a ‘dd’ of the drive you want to install it to. Then copy that image over to where you’re running SIMH, and use a copy as your disk image for SIMH. Install RSTS/E, and write it back to the simulated RA81 using dd. I do not know if this will work, but it’s something I’ve wanted to try for a long time. Another possibility is that you could be running into some sort of problem with the RA81 simulation with the controller. Do you have the manual for the Controller? If so what OS’s and versions does it say it supports? Out of curiosity, which SCSI board are you using? I didn’t realize this was a feature that the CMD controllers have. Will it simulate any other drives? Zane
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
They have probably 25 boxes of 10, 8" DSDD floppies each that are still in their sealed packaging if that's of interest! On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 2:29 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk On 2/16/19 12:16 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > The last there was proactive about saying prices are negotiable, and you > > could expect "up to 50%" off. > > Hum. > > I feel like that's not sufficient to peak my interest in some of the > things. > > I'm particularly interested in the IBM PS/2 stuff, but there's not > enough information / details to speculate on short notice from afar with > unknown prices and shipping. :-/ > > I do think that's the biggest collection of Model 80s that I've seen in > one place in quite a while. > > I'd be really curious what cards are in them. > > Thank you for the pictures and the heads up Anders. > > > I'm not about to pay up to $1K for one of those corroded disk packs, > so... > > Ya. Some of the equipment looked fairly rough. I suspect a good > cleaning will help. But it's difficult to tell what condition and if > it's just surface dirt or if the problems run deeper. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die >
RE: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
Really high prices! If he is going under, it will cost him up to $20 each to have those CRTs recycled. The printers and scanners will be 2-6 cents per pound as scrap. Maybe he will make some last minute good deals. -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Anders Nelson via cctalk Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 12:52 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough Hi everyone, I heard Kemners Surplus in Pottstown, PA was going away so I decided to pay them a visit. I'm taking pictures of as much vintage computing gear as I can as we speak. I'll be here until they close today at 5pm EST, so if you see something you like feel free to give them a call and I'll help them navigate. Photos updated as I walk through, here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Q8Jx7n36fmVczLN8 If you see something you like it'd be great if you could check if I'm interested first until I'm finished today. ;] Hope this helps someone, they shut down soon! --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
On 2/16/19 12:16 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: The last there was proactive about saying prices are negotiable, and you could expect "up to 50%" off. Hum. I feel like that's not sufficient to peak my interest in some of the things. I'm particularly interested in the IBM PS/2 stuff, but there's not enough information / details to speculate on short notice from afar with unknown prices and shipping. :-/ I do think that's the biggest collection of Model 80s that I've seen in one place in quite a while. I'd be really curious what cards are in them. Thank you for the pictures and the heads up Anders. I'm not about to pay up to $1K for one of those corroded disk packs, so... Ya. Some of the equipment looked fairly rough. I suspect a good cleaning will help. But it's difficult to tell what condition and if it's just surface dirt or if the problems run deeper. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
The last there was proactive about saying prices are negotiable, and you could expect "up to 50%" off. I'm not about to pay up to $1K for one of those corroded disk packs, so... On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 2:11 PM William Donzelli Probably the biggest question everyone has is if the prices are > reasonable for a place about to go under. > > -- > Will > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 1:52 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I heard Kemners Surplus in Pottstown, PA was going away so I decided to > pay > > them a visit. I'm taking pictures of as much vintage computing gear as I > > can as we speak. I'll be here until they close today at 5pm EST, so if > you > > see something you like feel free to give them a call and I'll help them > > navigate. > > > > Photos updated as I walk through, here: > > > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Q8Jx7n36fmVczLN8 > > > > If you see something you like it'd be great if you could check if I'm > > interested first until I'm finished today. ;] > > > > Hope this helps someone, they shut down soon! >
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
I cross posted this / what you're doing to Usenet (PS/2 people) and tweeted about it. On 2/16/19 11:51 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: Hi everyone, I heard Kemners Surplus in Pottstown, PA was going away so I decided to pay them a visit. I'm taking pictures of as much vintage computing gear as I can as we speak. I'll be here until they close today at 5pm EST, so if you see something you like feel free to give them a call and I'll help them navigate. Photos updated as I walk through, here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Q8Jx7n36fmVczLN8 If you see something you like it'd be great if you could check if I'm interested first until I'm finished today. ;] Hope this helps someone, they shut down soon! -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
Probably the biggest question everyone has is if the prices are reasonable for a place about to go under. -- Will On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 1:52 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I heard Kemners Surplus in Pottstown, PA was going away so I decided to pay > them a visit. I'm taking pictures of as much vintage computing gear as I > can as we speak. I'll be here until they close today at 5pm EST, so if you > see something you like feel free to give them a call and I'll help them > navigate. > > Photos updated as I walk through, here: > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Q8Jx7n36fmVczLN8 > > If you see something you like it'd be great if you could check if I'm > interested first until I'm finished today. ;] > > Hope this helps someone, they shut down soon!
Re: 8-Update
Oh boy, how did I miss that someone has created a front panel PCB layout for a PDP-8/e? Can you ask Vince to share that design please? On Tue, Dec 18, 2018, 6:08 PM Paul Birkel via cctalk >I have an .slt for the PDP-8/e lever > >Rod > > Please publish/share? > > paul > >
Re: PDP-11 disk image question
On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 10:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I used SIMH to build RSTS V9.6 on a simulated RA81 disk. I wrote the > disk as a file to a CDR in CD9660 format. I moved the BA350 and the > CD to a VS3100 running OpenBSD. I was able to mount the CD under > OpenBSD and see the file containing the disk image. I used dd with > the command given in my original message (and repeated above) to try > to write the image to a real SCSI disk. When I try to boot it I get > the RSTS Message "INIT.SYS not found". The disk was completely blank > to start so the RSTS info must have been copied but apparently not > copied correctly. > > Any more suggestions? > My wild speculation would be disk geometry. I don't know the specific geometry of the RA81 disk, but it is possible that SIMH is writing a sparse disk image. As an arbitrary example, suppose that there were seven sectors per track, and the RA81 accepts a 3 bit sector number. If SIMH is treating the sector number as a 0-7, then the blocks would be written to the image file as: (track/sector) 0/0 0/1 0/2 0/3 0/4 0/5 0/6 unused 1/0 1/1 . When the image file is copied to the drive, the "unused" block is written to 1/0 on the drive, and 1/0 is written to 1/1. etc. This could match the observed behavior; the data in the first track is call correct, allowing RSTS to start, but the directory blocks containing INIT.SYS are on the wrong locations, causing the 'can't find' failure. I don't know if SIMH is doing this; one test would be to run something on the SIMH RSTS that filled the disk with data (ensuring that the last sectors are written to, and compare the size of the image file with the size of the actual disk; if the image file is bigger, then it is probably sparsely written. -- Charles
Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
Hi everyone, I heard Kemners Surplus in Pottstown, PA was going away so I decided to pay them a visit. I'm taking pictures of as much vintage computing gear as I can as we speak. I'll be here until they close today at 5pm EST, so if you see something you like feel free to give them a call and I'll help them navigate. Photos updated as I walk through, here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Q8Jx7n36fmVczLN8 If you see something you like it'd be great if you could check if I'm interested first until I'm finished today. ;] Hope this helps someone, they shut down soon!
Re: PDP-11 disk image question
On 2/16/19 12:35 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On Feb 16, 2019, at 9:10 AM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> Bill, >> >> On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:55:10 + >> Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >>> So, I used SIMH to do an install of a complete OS on >>> an RA81 disk. I would like to move this to a real disk >>> and try it on a real PDP-11. Is there a way to do this >>> using dd on a BSD machine? I tried but it created a >>> non bootable system. Well, actually, it starts to boot >>> but then fails very early in the startup process. I used >>> "dd if=filename of=raw-device bs=1024". Could it be that >>> the block size needs to be something else? >>> >>> I know that VTServer and PDPGUI can move disk images but >>> it would take a week at 9600 baud and I think very little >>> likelihood of it ever completing successfully. >>> >>> bill >> >> In order to do this easily, I have SCSI controllers (and disks) on my >> two primary PDP-11 systems (11/34 and 11/83). >> >> 1. I copy the image file I want on a "native" drive using a PC w/SCSI >> and Linux to a SCSI disk (or removable media) using "dd". >> >> 2. I move that drive/media to the SCSI "chain" on a PDP-11. >> >> 3. I use RT-11 to move the image from the SCSI drive/media to the >> "native" HDD. >> >> Its a bit cumbersome, but I used this method for years and it hasn't >> failed me yet ;) > > Like Lyle I have SCSI controllers on my PDP-11/73, and my PDP-11/44. I’ve > actually installed RT-11 and RSX-11M+ from CD-R. There is another option, > and I’ve used this with RL01’s and RL02’s. With those, I’ve used a MicroVAX > II or MicroVAX 3 and VAX/VMS. I used to have a dedicated MicroVAX 3 setup > with RA73 drives for this. I still have the hardware, but it hasn’t been > used since 2000. If you have a way to hook the RA81 up to a VAX, I think > that would be an option as well. > OK, as usual, I hac caused confusion and didn't get my point across. let's try with a detailed explanation of what I did that didn't seem to work. First, my hardware. I have a PDP-11/93 with a CMD SCSI Module and a BA350 with 6 2GB hard drives. The Module is set up to present RA81 disks and the first 3 disks have 4 partitions each which should work out to 12 RA81 disks. (But that last part is unimportant right now!) I used SIMH to build RSTS V9.6 on a simulated RA81 disk. I wrote the disk as a file to a CDR in CD9660 format. I moved the BA350 and the CD to a VS3100 running OpenBSD. I was able to mount the CD under OpenBSD and see the file containing the disk image. I used dd with the command given in my original message (and repeated above) to try to write the image to a real SCSI disk. When I try to boot it I get the RSTS Message "INIT.SYS not found". The disk was completely blank to start so the RSTS info must have been copied but apparently not copied correctly. Any more suggestions? bill
Re: PDP-11 disk image question
On 2/16/19 7:55 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: So, I used SIMH to do an install of a complete OS on an RA81 disk. I would like to move this to a real disk and try it on a real PDP-11. Is there a way to do this using dd on a BSD machine? I tried but it created a non bootable system. Well, actually, it starts to boot but then fails very early in the startup process. I used "dd if=filename of=raw-device bs=1024". Could it be that the block size needs to be something else? I know that VTServer and PDPGUI can move disk images but it would take a week at 9600 baud and I think very little likelihood of it ever completing successfully. bill As long as the media is presented as "Error Free", you should be able to to change the block size. Since a RA81 (MSCP) remaps error blocks automatically and invisibly, it should work. Is the media type the same on SIMH and Real PDP11? If all else fails try bs=512. For drives that have OS visible media defects, you should make sure the block size matches the same on the media and also use the option "conv=noerror,sync". Otherwise dd will actually reorders the blocks(!), good first then zero fill the ones it cannot read. Jerry
Re: PDP-11 disk image question
> On Feb 16, 2019, at 9:10 AM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk > wrote: > > Bill, > > On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:55:10 + > Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> So, I used SIMH to do an install of a complete OS on >> an RA81 disk. I would like to move this to a real disk >> and try it on a real PDP-11. Is there a way to do this >> using dd on a BSD machine? I tried but it created a >> non bootable system. Well, actually, it starts to boot >> but then fails very early in the startup process. I used >> "dd if=filename of=raw-device bs=1024". Could it be that >> the block size needs to be something else? >> >> I know that VTServer and PDPGUI can move disk images but >> it would take a week at 9600 baud and I think very little >> likelihood of it ever completing successfully. >> >> bill > > In order to do this easily, I have SCSI controllers (and disks) on my > two primary PDP-11 systems (11/34 and 11/83). > > 1. I copy the image file I want on a "native" drive using a PC w/SCSI > and Linux to a SCSI disk (or removable media) using "dd". > > 2. I move that drive/media to the SCSI "chain" on a PDP-11. > > 3. I use RT-11 to move the image from the SCSI drive/media to the > "native" HDD. > > Its a bit cumbersome, but I used this method for years and it hasn't > failed me yet ;) Like Lyle I have SCSI controllers on my PDP-11/73, and my PDP-11/44. I’ve actually installed RT-11 and RSX-11M+ from CD-R. There is another option, and I’ve used this with RL01’s and RL02’s. With those, I’ve used a MicroVAX II or MicroVAX 3 and VAX/VMS. I used to have a dedicated MicroVAX 3 setup with RA73 drives for this. I still have the hardware, but it hasn’t been used since 2000. If you have a way to hook the RA81 up to a VAX, I think that would be an option as well. Zane
Re: Intel Universal Prom Programmer UPP 103 documentation
Dwight Thanks for the suggestion. The problem just showed up late last night so I haven’t really started diagnostics yet. Fortunately, it reads OK but is just failing to program so the problem is very limited in scope and probably going to be fairly easy to track down. This problem aside, it would be nice to have the documentation for when it really gives up the ghost. Craig > On Feb 16, 2019, at 6:58 AM, dwight wrote: > > Not sure how much this will help but the EPROM programmer boards were an > evolutionary thing. The UPP-816 would be quite similar to the UPP-833, except > for extra stuff for voltage control and added addresses. What is the issue > you are having with the board? > Dwight > > From: cctalk on behalf of craig andrews via > cctalk > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 12:20 AM > To: cct...@classiccmp.org > Subject: Intel Universal Prom Programmer UPP 103 documentation > > Hello, I need to do some work on my intel UPP-833 personality card in my UPP > and am looking for documentation > > This document: > > 9800133F_Universal_PROM_Programmer_Reference_Manual_1977 > > has schematics for personality cards available in ‘77 but does not include > the UPP-833 > I am having trouble with my UPP-833 and could use some documentation. > Documentation on the UPP-832 would probably be helpful if nothing on the 833 > > There may be a newer version of 102448-001 I do not know about. There are > two Documents that should have the information are: > > 102448-001. Printed Wiring Assembly UPP-833 Personality (drawings and > schematics), L1002488, 123832, 2000966 > > 123832-001. Printed Wiring Assembly UPP-833 Personality (drawings and > schematics), L1002488, 123832, 2000966 > > Can anyone help? > > Regards > > Craig >
Re: PDP-11 disk image question
Bill, On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:55:10 + Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > So, I used SIMH to do an install of a complete OS on > an RA81 disk. I would like to move this to a real disk > and try it on a real PDP-11. Is there a way to do this > using dd on a BSD machine? I tried but it created a > non bootable system. Well, actually, it starts to boot > but then fails very early in the startup process. I used > "dd if=filename of=raw-device bs=1024". Could it be that > the block size needs to be something else? > > I know that VTServer and PDPGUI can move disk images but > it would take a week at 9600 baud and I think very little > likelihood of it ever completing successfully. > > bill In order to do this easily, I have SCSI controllers (and disks) on my two primary PDP-11 systems (11/34 and 11/83). 1. I copy the image file I want on a "native" drive using a PC w/SCSI and Linux to a SCSI disk (or removable media) using "dd". 2. I move that drive/media to the SCSI "chain" on a PDP-11. 3. I use RT-11 to move the image from the SCSI drive/media to the "native" HDD. Its a bit cumbersome, but I used this method for years and it hasn't failed me yet ;) Cheers, Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
Re: Intel Universal Prom Programmer UPP 103 documentation
Not sure how much this will help but the EPROM programmer boards were an evolutionary thing. The UPP-816 would be quite similar to the UPP-833, except for extra stuff for voltage control and added addresses. What is the issue you are having with the board? Dwight From: cctalk on behalf of craig andrews via cctalk Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 12:20 AM To: cct...@classiccmp.org Subject: Intel Universal Prom Programmer UPP 103 documentation Hello, I need to do some work on my intel UPP-833 personality card in my UPP and am looking for documentation This document: 9800133F_Universal_PROM_Programmer_Reference_Manual_1977 has schematics for personality cards available in ‘77 but does not include the UPP-833 I am having trouble with my UPP-833 and could use some documentation. Documentation on the UPP-832 would probably be helpful if nothing on the 833 There may be a newer version of 102448-001 I do not know about. There are two Documents that should have the information are: 102448-001. Printed Wiring Assembly UPP-833 Personality (drawings and schematics), L1002488, 123832, 2000966 123832-001. Printed Wiring Assembly UPP-833 Personality (drawings and schematics), L1002488, 123832, 2000966 Can anyone help? Regards Craig
PDP-11 disk image question
So, I used SIMH to do an install of a complete OS on an RA81 disk. I would like to move this to a real disk and try it on a real PDP-11. Is there a way to do this using dd on a BSD machine? I tried but it created a non bootable system. Well, actually, it starts to boot but then fails very early in the startup process. I used "dd if=filename of=raw-device bs=1024". Could it be that the block size needs to be something else? I know that VTServer and PDPGUI can move disk images but it would take a week at 9600 baud and I think very little likelihood of it ever completing successfully. bill
Fwd: Latest Batch of Items from Sellam's VWoCW
Sorry, moderation fail. Forwarding to cctalk: Forwarded Message Subject:Latest Batch of Items from Sellam's VWoCW Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 20:27:12 -0800 From: Sellam Ismail via cctech Reply-To: Sellam Ismail , General Discussion: On-Topic Posts To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Hello Folks! I've put together another batch of items as I continue to wade through my warehouse and winnow out the wonders: HP 2116C System Manual #1 HP 2116C System Manual #2 HP 2116C System Manual #3 HP 2116C Power Cord Using the HP 3000: An Introduction to Interactive Programming Tandy WP-2 Portable Word Processor M7859 KY11-LB Console Interface Kraft 3-button PC Mouse Mouse Systems 3-button PC Mouse Zenith Z-Box External ISA Expansion Chassis Novell IBM NIC ShareNet Board Epson External 5.25" Floppy Drive SuperMac Technology DataFrame DF20 20MB external hard disk ClubMac C104 External SCSI CD-ROM Drive Midiman Mini MacMan Macintosh MIDI Interface Passport MIDI Interface for Macintosh Neutronics Hexadigit S-100 Bus Monitor Gimix Ghost 32K RAM Compaq SLT/286 portable VTech The Equalizer Laptop IBM Model M Keyboard IBM Model M Keyboard IBM Model M Keyboard IBM Model M Keyboard The main index for these and other fine items is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1#gid=949372371=A1 I've put some work into the index and improved it so that links keep properly updated as new items are added or sold items are removed (whereas before the index links in the New Arrivals Niche would get hopelessly out of sync). However, I believe there might have been some problems with the links before so if you saw an item you liked and the link did not lead to it and you assumed it was sold, please check again. From this point going forward, all links (above the notice in the sheet) should stay in sync. I've been preoccupied for the last few months with personal business and haven't been able to put a lot of time into curating the collection for sales but I am trying to catch up. There are a couple people that are waiting on me and I haven't forgotten about you. I will get caught up shortly and I thank you for your patience. As always, please contact me directly by e-mail via to make an order or an offer. Thanks! Sellam
Intel Universal Prom Programmer UPP 103 documentation
Hello, I need to do some work on my intel UPP-833 personality card in my UPP and am looking for documentation This document: 9800133F_Universal_PROM_Programmer_Reference_Manual_1977 has schematics for personality cards available in ‘77 but does not include the UPP-833 I am having trouble with my UPP-833 and could use some documentation. Documentation on the UPP-832 would probably be helpful if nothing on the 833 There may be a newer version of 102448-001 I do not know about. There are two Documents that should have the information are: 102448-001. Printed Wiring Assembly UPP-833 Personality (drawings and schematics), L1002488, 123832, 2000966 123832-001. Printed Wiring Assembly UPP-833 Personality (drawings and schematics), L1002488, 123832, 2000966 Can anyone help? Regards Craig
Re: Zenith Z-90 startup
Hello, I am reading through message archives and came across your post. Did you get your h90 sorted out? Craig
