[cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum)
Yea they are squatting on something SMECC museum would dearly love Ed Sharpe - Archivist for SMECC Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 9:13 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 12:34:29PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > Even if it doesn't reopen, I'd hope that its collection would not > simply be scrapped. I imagine a lot of people here would be > interested in parts of it. I'm one of them... If I was a donator, I would now be writing an rather officially looking letter to let them know, that if they have intention to misuse my donation then I have intention to have it back. So they have to stuff this paper into their files and maybe even be nice to donator. I have no idea how this seems from the side of the law - is it at all possible that donator can claim his donation back? If there is a good reason for this, of course. It was given to the museum, with purpose to have it exhibited or otherwise used by some group of people. If museum is being scrapped for good, then this purpose is not going to be fulfilled, so???... Or, if museum decided to give it to some artistic movement, which used it in their performances - say, peeing on olde computer, making it puff and throw sparks, under the slogans painted on the wall, claiming this very computer enabled certain pitiful aspects of western civilization (which I will not name, so as to not have attention of bots). How is that called in English law-speak, abuse of good faith? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
[cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum)
Tomasz, This is a very interesting and relevant question. To the extent that there is an implied and enforceable contract between donor and donee that a donation not be neglected or removed from public use, if a donated item were to actually be removed from public use, that would definitely be actionable in the courts. Whether one would prevail or not would depend on the competency of their argument. If the LCM is a non-profit corporation, their inventory of computers are considered public property, and therefore subject to specific rules for disposition. However, I believe (but could be wrong) that the LCM was a foundation of sorts, so the same rules wouldn't necessarily apply. Foundations are typically of a private nature, and so to the extent that the wishes of the donor are to be honored, they would have to be explicitly established. Otherwise, as a gift to the foundation, the foundation could then reasonably do with the property what it wished per its own needs or desires, irrespective of the considerations of the donor. I'm hoping Rich Alderson will pipe in and give us the actual story as to what's going on with the LCM and its collection, but there's a possibility that he may be legally constricted from giving comment at this time. Sellam On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 9:13 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 12:34:29PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > [...] > > > > Even if it doesn't reopen, I'd hope that its collection would not > > simply be scrapped. I imagine a lot of people here would be > > interested in parts of it. I'm one of them... > > If I was a donator, I would now be writing an rather officially > looking letter to let them know, that if they have intention to misuse > my donation then I have intention to have it back. > > So they have to stuff this paper into their files and maybe even be > nice to donator. > > I have no idea how this seems from the side of the law - is it at all > possible that donator can claim his donation back? If there is a good > reason for this, of course. It was given to the museum, with purpose > to have it exhibited or otherwise used by some group of people. If > museum is being scrapped for good, then this purpose is not going to > be fulfilled, so???... > > Or, if museum decided to give it to some artistic movement, which used > it in their performances - say, peeing on olde computer, making it puff > and throw sparks, under the slogans painted on the wall, claiming this > very computer enabled certain pitiful aspects of western civilization > (which I will not name, so as to not have attention of bots). > > How is that called in English law-speak, abuse of good faith? > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** >
[cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum)
On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 12:34:29PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > Even if it doesn't reopen, I'd hope that its collection would not > simply be scrapped. I imagine a lot of people here would be > interested in parts of it. I'm one of them... If I was a donator, I would now be writing an rather officially looking letter to let them know, that if they have intention to misuse my donation then I have intention to have it back. So they have to stuff this paper into their files and maybe even be nice to donator. I have no idea how this seems from the side of the law - is it at all possible that donator can claim his donation back? If there is a good reason for this, of course. It was given to the museum, with purpose to have it exhibited or otherwise used by some group of people. If museum is being scrapped for good, then this purpose is not going to be fulfilled, so???... Or, if museum decided to give it to some artistic movement, which used it in their performances - say, peeing on olde computer, making it puff and throw sparks, under the slogans painted on the wall, claiming this very computer enabled certain pitiful aspects of western civilization (which I will not name, so as to not have attention of bots). How is that called in English law-speak, abuse of good faith? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
[cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum)
The museum had been one of Paul Allen's private passion projects. Sadly, he died rather unexpectedly and he hadn't really had time to set up a proper legal entity to protect it after his death, so it and all his other passion projects ended up controlled by his wife's real estate company which started looking at ways of shutting them down almost immediately. COVID gave them the perfect excuse, sadly. Mike On Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 1:16 PM Royce Taft via cctalk wrote: > That’s really disappointing to hear. I only discovered that museum for > myself via their website a couple of years ago and had no idea that it > closed. I had planned on visiting next time my wife and I travel to > Seattle. > > I hope that they are able to reopen. > > Royce > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 30, 2022, at 09:22, Michael Brutman via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > My apologies if this topic is a sore point for some of you. Their > abrupt > > closing wasn't that long ago. > > > > Does anybody have any insight on what is going on there? The web site > has > > not been updated in about 2.5 years. The world seems to be moving on; it > > would be nice to know if we're ever going to see the museum re-open, and > in > > what capacity. > > > > I realize the people are gone and scattered and it's never going to be > the > > same experience if it re-opens. But there are plenty of us who still > > believe in the need for such a place, and starting from scratch would be > > difficult. > > > > > > -Mike > > > > (Off-list replies are welcomed if that makes the discussion easier ...) >
[cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever
Well, for incoming traffic DHV11's had things like pretty deep buffers, I wonder if it was smart enough to see a bunch of characters coming in then buffer them for a single DMA hit on the CPU. Maybe if a character came in and nothing else it could do an interrupt but usually things were chatty enough that it probably was able to batch the inputs into a single DMA transfer. The real value of DMA was in output (you could sent a whole chunk of data back in one shot) and of course file transfers and the like. A DZ11 would pound the CPU into snot with endless interrupts and each character out had to be done as well. The reason I have so many is because I believe these were used with a COMM-IO-P system. This was a Dec custom thing that would use an on-board processor to poll a bunch of DZ11's and format the data nicely for the CPU. I think the DZ11's were polled as opposed to interrupted so it could handle a lot of well formatted traffic. The really fun stuff is that I found the manuals for the Associated Computer Consultants (ACC) IF-11/3780 modules. These are interesting: They are a full length Unibus card that can handle 2 serial lines. However the card has Z80 CPUs and other stuff to handle the full 2780/3780 communications for up to 2 different IBM mainframes. ASCII-EBCDIC: Yep, it did this. Space Compression/Expansion? Yep. Vertical and Horozontal format control? Sure! Automatic retransmission and error correction BISYNC protocol with proper blocking and block checks. Yep, that too... Beast of a card, I think that one of them was also able to be a full X.25 PAD. On 10/30/2022 2:58 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: and typing long sentences to take advantage of the NPR burst after the initial interrupt! Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-10-30 14:49, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: The difference between dz and dh interfaces is that the dh used dma instead of interrupts to get characters to the cpu. It would be transparent to any software. I did a write up on them 40 years ago justifying the replacement of a dz with dh saying that decreasing interrupts would increase performance on my VAX 780. It did, but just a bit. To make a big difference, you’d have to have a LOT of people banging away on serial terminals and rs-232 connected printers. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 30, 2022, at 09:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: For an awful lot of software, holding a line until there is an end of line is not practical. Text editors in particular simply won’t work that way. The UNIX shell wouldn’t work in that environment either. So this character by character interrupt is pretty standard. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 29, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: The performance of the DZ11 is not good. It did an interrupt for every character, just like a DL11. The Able DMAXes blocked until a carriage return and then did a DNA, IIRC. Not sure about the DH and DHV11 - its been a long time. We used Able DMAXes on the Canadian NAPLPS system, named Telidon, but that was back in the 1200/300 baud days! However for vintage computer purposes, that's probably not a concern. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-10-29 14:37, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial interfacing? They will not emulate a DL11 or any similar single serial port. You don't have to use all 8 ports on the DZ11 card but you still need the right software driver. That said,it would be a pity to scrap these. Surely all Unibus cards are getting hard to find now. -tony Bill On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And I have no clue why I have them. Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. CZ
[cctalk] Re: Bubble Memory
Super... George Sent from my iPhone geo...@rachors.com > On Oct 29, 2022, at 10:21 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk > wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 23:29 George Rachor via cctalk > wrote: > >> I remember a bubble memory card being advertise for the Apple ][ but never >> saw one. >> >> Were they ever made? >> > > Yes. I have the Helix Labs card.
[cctalk] [FS] Power Macs in Victoria, Australia - Apple Workgroup Server 9150 also 8100, 7100, 6200
Hi list A relative is selling these Macs in Victoria, Australia: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/204136123378 Hoping they can find a good home. --Toby
[cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever
and typing long sentences to take advantage of the NPR burst after the initial interrupt! Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-10-30 14:49, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: The difference between dz and dh interfaces is that the dh used dma instead of interrupts to get characters to the cpu. It would be transparent to any software. I did a write up on them 40 years ago justifying the replacement of a dz with dh saying that decreasing interrupts would increase performance on my VAX 780. It did, but just a bit. To make a big difference, you’d have to have a LOT of people banging away on serial terminals and rs-232 connected printers. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 30, 2022, at 09:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: For an awful lot of software, holding a line until there is an end of line is not practical. Text editors in particular simply won’t work that way. The UNIX shell wouldn’t work in that environment either. So this character by character interrupt is pretty standard. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 29, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: The performance of the DZ11 is not good. It did an interrupt for every character, just like a DL11. The Able DMAXes blocked until a carriage return and then did a DNA, IIRC. Not sure about the DH and DHV11 - its been a long time. We used Able DMAXes on the Canadian NAPLPS system, named Telidon, but that was back in the 1200/300 baud days! However for vintage computer purposes, that's probably not a concern. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 On 2022-10-29 14:37, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial interfacing? They will not emulate a DL11 or any similar single serial port. You don't have to use all 8 ports on the DZ11 card but you still need the right software driver. That said,it would be a pity to scrap these. Surely all Unibus cards are getting hard to find now. -tony Bill On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And I have no clue why I have them. Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. CZ
[cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever
The difference between dz and dh interfaces is that the dh used dma instead of interrupts to get characters to the cpu. It would be transparent to any software. I did a write up on them 40 years ago justifying the replacement of a dz with dh saying that decreasing interrupts would increase performance on my VAX 780. It did, but just a bit. To make a big difference, you’d have to have a LOT of people banging away on serial terminals and rs-232 connected printers. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 30, 2022, at 09:22, Jay Jaeger via cctalk > wrote: > > For an awful lot of software, holding a line until there is an end of line > is not practical. Text editors in particular simply won’t work that way. The > UNIX shell wouldn’t work in that environment either. So this character by > character interrupt is pretty standard. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 29, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> The performance of the DZ11 is not good. It did an interrupt for every >> character, just like a DL11. The Able DMAXes blocked until a carriage return >> and then did a DNA, IIRC. >> >> Not sure about the DH and DHV11 - its been a long time. We used Able DMAXes >> on the Canadian NAPLPS system, named Telidon, but that was back in the >> 1200/300 baud days! >> >> However for vintage computer purposes, that's probably not a concern. >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >> >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> Skype: TILBURY2591 >> >> >>> On 2022-10-29 14:37, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial interfacing? >>> They will not emulate a DL11 or any similar single serial port. >>> >>> You don't have to use all 8 ports on the DZ11 card but you still need >>> the right software driver. >>> >>> That said,it would be a pity to scrap these. Surely all Unibus cards >>> are getting hard to find now. >>> >>> -tony >>> >>> >>> Bill On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And I > have no clue why I have them. > > Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. > > CZ >
[cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum)
That’s really disappointing to hear. I only discovered that museum for myself via their website a couple of years ago and had no idea that it closed. I had planned on visiting next time my wife and I travel to Seattle. I hope that they are able to reopen. Royce Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 30, 2022, at 09:22, Michael Brutman via cctalk > wrote: > > My apologies if this topic is a sore point for some of you. Their abrupt > closing wasn't that long ago. > > Does anybody have any insight on what is going on there? The web site has > not been updated in about 2.5 years. The world seems to be moving on; it > would be nice to know if we're ever going to see the museum re-open, and in > what capacity. > > I realize the people are gone and scattered and it's never going to be the > same experience if it re-opens. But there are plenty of us who still > believe in the need for such a place, and starting from scratch would be > difficult. > > > -Mike > > (Off-list replies are welcomed if that makes the discussion easier ...)
[cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum)
> On Oct 30, 2022, at 12:22 PM, Michael Brutman via cctalk > wrote: > > My apologies if this topic is a sore point for some of you. Their abrupt > closing wasn't that long ago. > > Does anybody have any insight on what is going on there? The web site has > not been updated in about 2.5 years. The world seems to be moving on; it > would be nice to know if we're ever going to see the museum re-open, and in > what capacity. Even if it doesn't reopen, I'd hope that its collection would not simply be scrapped. I imagine a lot of people here would be interested in parts of it. I'm one of them... paul
[cctalk] LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum)
My apologies if this topic is a sore point for some of you. Their abrupt closing wasn't that long ago. Does anybody have any insight on what is going on there? The web site has not been updated in about 2.5 years. The world seems to be moving on; it would be nice to know if we're ever going to see the museum re-open, and in what capacity. I realize the people are gone and scattered and it's never going to be the same experience if it re-opens. But there are plenty of us who still believe in the need for such a place, and starting from scratch would be difficult. -Mike (Off-list replies are welcomed if that makes the discussion easier ...)
[cctalk] Re: 14 DZ11's for sale/whatever
For an awful lot of software, holding a line until there is an end of line is not practical. Text editors in particular simply won’t work that way. The UNIX shell wouldn’t work in that environment either. So this character by character interrupt is pretty standard. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 29, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk > wrote: > > The performance of the DZ11 is not good. It did an interrupt for every > character, just like a DL11. The Able DMAXes blocked until a carriage return > and then did a DNA, IIRC. > > Not sure about the DH and DHV11 - its been a long time. We used Able DMAXes > on the Canadian NAPLPS system, named Telidon, but that was back in the > 1200/300 baud days! > > However for vintage computer purposes, that's probably not a concern. > > cheers, > > Nigel > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 > > >> On 2022-10-29 14:37, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 6:14 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> Being lazy admittedly but can these be used for single serial interfacing? >> They will not emulate a DL11 or any similar single serial port. >> >> You don't have to use all 8 ports on the DZ11 card but you still need >> the right software driver. >> >> That said,it would be a pity to scrap these. Surely all Unibus cards >> are getting hard to find now. >> >> -tony >> >> >> >>> Bill >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:01 AM Chris Zach via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> I have a box here of 14 DZ11 Unibus 8 line serial port interfaces. And I have no clue why I have them. Anyone need some? Otherwise I'll Ebay/recycle them. CZ
[cctalk] Re: Does anyone have a copy of DAEMON Tools Ultra 4.x install file(s)?
On 10/30/22 4:34 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: Any use? http://www.oldversion.com/windows/daemon-tools/ I will give that a try. Thank you for the pointer. I'm also exchanging emails with DAEMON Tools support. They /are/ responding and /trying/ to help. Sadly XP is being problematic. I don't really use Windows any more here, so I haven't seen or tried this myself. My personal choice is to use Linux. My Year of the Linux Desktop was last century. Windows is relegated to the things that need to be done on Windows; an old game (Yoda Stories) from the '90s, a specific version of QuickBooks to appease my wife, things that don't have a Linux / macOS counterpart. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] [FS] Power Macs in Victoria, Australia - Apple Workgroup Server 9150 also 8100, 7100, 6200
Hi list A relative is selling these Macs in Victoria, Australia: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/204136123378 Hoping they can find a good home. --Toby PS. Sorry if posted twice, I am in the middle of changing my email address to toby -at- telegraphics dot net
[cctalk] Re: Does anyone have a copy of DAEMON Tools Ultra 4.x install file(s)?
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 at 00:36, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone have a copy of DAEMON Tools Ultra 4.x install file(s)? Any use? http://www.oldversion.com/windows/daemon-tools/ I don't really use Windows any more here, so I haven't seen or tried this myself. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones
On 2022-10-18 00:40, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: On 10/17/2022 2:57 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 10/17/22 14:47, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: Hi all, After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets. I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned. I am not aware of any VAX clones but during the height of the cold war real VAX were frequently illegally moved to the USSR via India who had no problems with violating their agreements with their allies. Just like someone in the US bought a copy of BSD Unix for the VAX and it was known to have been smuggled out of the country in a diplomatic pouch via the Russian Embassy in DC. bill In the mid 1980's I went to inspect a complete VAX 780 that had been confiscated by the US Gov't and was to be auctioned off. This was in the Wash DC area and the computer was configured for 50Hz power and was destined for South Africa. Its true destination was somewhere else, probably Russia. It didn't make sense that the auction was open to the public, but the equipment was export restricted. This was a fairly big deal in Sweden as one of the bad actors was a Swedish company and Swedish customs stopped the shipment. It was called something like ”container gate”. I haven’t found any english sources I’m afraid: https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containeraff%C3%A4ren /P
