[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 11:45 AM Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > I have heard of Discord, but have not had a need to use it. Odd that > https://vcfmw.org/ does not > have an obvious link for Discord if it is where we are expected to find > useful information. Would I > need to have a Discord account (and be a member of some group) to see this > information? > Correcting a post from earlier, the ClassicCMP Discord (and IRC) is not the primary source of VCFMW information. It is an easy way to find some of the organizers and ask a quick question, but the official "sources of truth" re: VCF Midwest are the https://vcfmw.org website and the mailing list ( https://vcfmw.org/listsub.html) which everyone should be on (it's unidirectional, spam-free and run by us on our server.) All email sent to the contact addresses on the site go straight to me (or, in some cases, other staff as well) and I usually answer within a day. -jt
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
I remember just getting close to channel 33, not worrying what the actual channel was anyway...as long as it worked. On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 9:47 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most > >> common. Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of > >> channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard, > >> because it was right below a third tier channel and a 24/7 > [speed-freak?] > >> preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks in the spectrum. > > On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Channel 33, at least all of the ones I have are channel 33. > > You are right. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod#/media/File:Sup_'R'_Mod_II_Kit.jpg > clearly labelled Ch. 33 > > Mostly. Here's a picture of one that is clearly labelled > "Ch. 32-34 TV INTERFRACE UNIT" > So, I might even have had one that was on ch. 34? > > > https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/apple-ii-plus-iie-r-enterprises-sup-1848247741 > > 3 clicks left of KICU, which was 2 clicks left of the 24/7 speed-freak > preacher dude. (UHF tuners were actually usually an analog knob, without > presets) > > I set up a few for friends, but I never used one; in college, I had done a > fair amount of playing with Sony CV series and AV series reel to reel > consumer video recorders, and I had a Sony 11"? monitor/TV, and some CCTV > monitors. > > The presence of that 4 pin Berg connector was the quickest way to > recognize/identify CGA video cards, disunirregardless of manufacturer. > (The 12 pin (2x6, keyed) connector mid-board is the identifying element of > the Compaq video) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com >
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most common. Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard, because it was right below a third tier channel and a 24/7 [speed-freak?] preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks in the spectrum. On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Channel 33, at least all of the ones I have are channel 33. You are right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod#/media/File:Sup_'R'_Mod_II_Kit.jpg clearly labelled Ch. 33 Mostly. Here's a picture of one that is clearly labelled "Ch. 32-34 TV INTERFRACE UNIT" So, I might even have had one that was on ch. 34? https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/apple-ii-plus-iie-r-enterprises-sup-1848247741 3 clicks left of KICU, which was 2 clicks left of the 24/7 speed-freak preacher dude. (UHF tuners were actually usually an analog knob, without presets) I set up a few for friends, but I never used one; in college, I had done a fair amount of playing with Sony CV series and AV series reel to reel consumer video recorders, and I had a Sony 11"? monitor/TV, and some CCTV monitors. The presence of that 4 pin Berg connector was the quickest way to recognize/identify CGA video cards, disunirregardless of manufacturer. (The 12 pin (2x6, keyed) connector mid-board is the identifying element of the Compaq video) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
> > > > > In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most > common. Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of > channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard, > because it was right below a third tier channel and a 24/7 [speed-freak?] > preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks in the spectrum. > Channel 33, at least all of the ones I have are channel 33. Bill
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Hence the short text lines on "home" computers.
The TRS80 used an RCA TV, converted into a monitor. (presumably bulk
purchased before the tuner was installed).
OB_irrelevant: In the TV sitcom "Married With Children" in many seasons,
on the Bundy kitchen counter was a [off white, instead of gray] TV of that
model.
When I bought my TRS80 ($400, instead of $600, by buying without the
"monitor" and cassette player), I used a CCTV composite monitor. I added
an RCA jack, to use instead of the 5-pin DIN. I upgraded the RAM and ROM,
added another key (Michael Shrayer's "Electric Pencil" needed a Control
key), added Joe Garner's add-in board for reverse video and lower case,
switched to a tri-state LED, and put Riv-Nuts in the base, so that the CPU
and Expansion Interface were bolted to a thin piece of plywood. When the
exterior paint was getting worn, I repainted it blue. Dave Sparks, the RS
repair technician, was happy to ignore any mods that he understood, so he
didn't void the warranty. When his boss objected, he said that since I
had brought it in with an intact warranty label and paint on the screws,
he assumed that I had done all of the mods through the vent slots, without
opening it ("boat in a bottle" :-)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
The probem with RF Modulators is that due to the National Television
Standards Committee standards for American television there wasn't enough
bandwidth to display 80 characters x24 lines (or 25 lines with status).
Generally 64 x 16 was the maxmimum that would be readable on a standard black
and white TV set. Any higher resolutions would either cause the characters
to "tear" or lose horizontal or vertical sync completely.
That is why monitors were used. They were not bound by the NTSC standards
and were generally made for 80 x 25 or (even 132 x 25 with a smaller
character set).
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
When I said "tape drive", I was actually thinking mostly of cassette On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote: I think you forgot the most common storage back then. Audio cassette at 300 or 1200 baud. On 8/30/2023 5:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Wayne S wrote: When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone. The serial port was for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to write some software to use it with a terminal. Of course. To do anything with it, you needed some input and output. Either a good front panel, or a serial port plus software for a terminal, or a keyboard input with software, plus a video board with software. paper tape for storage, so as to not have to key in every program evey time, or a tape drive, or a disk drive. By the end of the 1970s, computers were being sold with terminal or keyboard/video hardware and software, and then disk drives and an operating system. BASIC on paper tape, ROM, or disk, . . . By the end of the 1970s, you did not need to be an electronics/comupter hobbyist to buy and use a personal computer. It became possible, without even a scope and soldering iron! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
The probem with RF Modulators is that due to the National Television Standards Committee standards for American television there wasn't enough bandwidth to display 80 characters x24 lines (or 25 lines with status). Generally 64 x 16 was the maxmimum that would be readable on a standard black and white TV set. Any higher resolutions would either cause the characters to "tear" or lose horizontal or vertical sync completely. That is why monitors were used. They were not bound by the NTSC standards and were generally made for 80 x 25 or (even 132 x 25 with a smaller character set). On 8/30/2023 3:54 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (on page 16): http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. -Original Message- From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: W2HX Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Hi all, I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? Thanks for the bandwidth. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
I think you forgot the most common storage back then. Audio cassette at 300 or 1200 baud. On 8/30/2023 5:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Wayne S wrote: When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone. The serial port was for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to write some software to use it with a terminal. Of course. To do anything with it, you needed some input and output. Either a good front panel, or a serial port plus software for a terminal, or a keyboard input with software, plus a video board with software. paper tape for storage, so as to not have to key in every program evey time, or a tape drive, or a disk drive. By the end of the 1970s, computers were being sold with terminal or keyboard/video hardware and software, and then disk drives and an operating system. BASIC on paper tape, ROM, or disk, . . . By the end of the 1970s, you did not need to be an electronics/comupter hobbyist to buy and use a personal computer. It became possible, without even a scope and soldering iron! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Wayne S wrote: When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone. The serial port was for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to write some software to use it with a terminal. Of course. To do anything with it, you needed some input and output. Either a good front panel, or a serial port plus software for a terminal, or a keyboard input with software, plus a video board with software. paper tape for storage, so as to not have to key in every program evey time, or a tape drive, or a disk drive. By the end of the 1970s, computers were being sold with terminal or keyboard/video hardware and software, and then disk drives and an operating system. BASIC on paper tape, ROM, or disk, . . . By the end of the 1970s, you did not need to be an electronics/comupter hobbyist to buy and use a personal computer. It became possible, without even a scope and soldering iron! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone. The serial port was for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to write some software to use it with a terminal. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 30, 2023, at 14:45, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: >> There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here >> (on page 16): >> http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf >> Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit >> board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You >> will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and >> user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler >> and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his >> "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video >> board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any >> serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video >> board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. > > In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most common. > Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of channel 3/4 > ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard, because it was right > below a third tier channel and a 24/7 [speed-freak?] preacher dude, that > provided easy landmarks in the spectrum. > > Since the RF modulator needed a power supply, and it was easy to bring power > out from the computer, whereas the 'rents wouldn't let you modify the family > Philco, amongst my associates, it tended to be located at the computer. > > Both the AppleII, and the IBM CGA (even including most of its clones) had a 4 > pin Berg (one pin usually missing as a key) to power and run the RF modulator. > > Terminals were cool if you had one, but cost more. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com >
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (on page 16): http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most common. Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard, because it was right below a third tier channel and a 24/7 [speed-freak?] preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks in the spectrum. Since the RF modulator needed a power supply, and it was easy to bring power out from the computer, whereas the 'rents wouldn't let you modify the family Philco, amongst my associates, it tended to be located at the computer. Both the AppleII, and the IBM CGA (even including most of its clones) had a 4 pin Berg (one pin usually missing as a key) to power and run the RF modulator. Terminals were cool if you had one, but cost more. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the composite signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and Dad probably wouldn't go for that (mine didn't). -Original Message- From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:54 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: 'W2HX' ; William Sudbrink Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (on page 16): http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. -Original Message- From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: W2HX Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Hi all, I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? Thanks for the bandwidth. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (on page 16): http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. -Original Message- From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: W2HX Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Hi all, I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? Thanks for the bandwidth. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
[cctalk] Plotter or Chart Recorder pens - in UK
I have found some plotter pens. Ons pack says Calcomp 104x, 1023. The other I can't trace. They look like they clip into ring. Pics here. https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onnqhG_uReQsCndYafvg?e=WpT5nw I have a few more of the Calcomp, packets of the un-branded sort. Free for the cost of postage Dave
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
/115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at the top end/ That is true. I remember setting my serial board for external baud rate and the SWTPC CT-82 terminal to generate the baud rate and I think it was like 38,400 maximum. My VT-220 maxes out at 9600 and my VT-330+ maxes out at 19,200. Remember the teletypes ran at 110 baud or slower. The decwrite and GE Terminet were speed demons at 300 and 1200 baud. On 8/30/2023 3:02 PM, Warner Losh wrote: On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 1:52 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: I had a video board and keyboard on my Gimix SS-50 system. Why? 1. The video board/monitor is much faster than a terminal even at 115,200 baud. 115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at the top end. 2. A Video board, keyboard and monitor was way cheaper back then than a terminal (Yes there was the SWTPc CT64 and the Lear Siegler ADM-3A kits, but fully loaded they weren't all that cheap). 3. If the video board supports any kind of graphics that is another reason. The Gimix video board supported graphics with a RAM character generator. 4. It's a lot less code to directly splat characters into memory than to generate all the escape sequences you need to 'draw' anything interesting (be it a game, a graph or just an emacs buffer). I got into this just after the S100 era, and I opted for the Rainbow because it was both a terminal I could connect to other systems, and a system with an internal graphics card. The terminal had completed the move inside the computer after starting out life as a computer added onto the terminal. DECs terminals followed this path. Many of the S100 systems that had graphics cards were also chasing after newish workstations that were just starting to be built. Warner On 8/30/2023 2:38 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. > > Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? > > Thanks for the bandwidth. > > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos >
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 1:52 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I had a video board and keyboard on my Gimix SS-50 system. > > Why? > > 1. The video board/monitor is much faster than a terminal even at > 115,200 baud. > 115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at the top end. > 2. A Video board, keyboard and monitor was way cheaper back then than a > terminal (Yes there was the SWTPc CT64 and the Lear Siegler ADM-3A kits, > but fully loaded they weren't all that cheap). > 3. If the video board supports any kind of graphics that is another > reason. The Gimix video board supported graphics with a RAM character > generator. > 4. It's a lot less code to directly splat characters into memory than to generate all the escape sequences you need to 'draw' anything interesting (be it a game, a graph or just an emacs buffer). I got into this just after the S100 era, and I opted for the Rainbow because it was both a terminal I could connect to other systems, and a system with an internal graphics card. The terminal had completed the move inside the computer after starting out life as a computer added onto the terminal. DECs terminals followed this path. Many of the S100 systems that had graphics cards were also chasing after newish workstations that were just starting to be built. Warner > On 8/30/2023 2:38 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and > a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am > trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs > just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card > supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a > terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a > specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could > understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a > standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just > provides composite. > > > > Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an > application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to > buy a video card instead of a terminal? > > > > Thanks for the bandwidth. > > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos > > > >
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
I had a video board and keyboard on my Gimix SS-50 system. Why? 1. The video board/monitor is much faster than a terminal even at 115,200 baud. 2. A Video board, keyboard and monitor was way cheaper back then than a terminal (Yes there was the SWTPc CT64 and the Lear Siegler ADM-3A kits, but fully loaded they weren't all that cheap). 3. If the video board supports any kind of graphics that is another reason. The Gimix video board supported graphics with a RAM character generator. On 8/30/2023 2:38 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: Hi all, I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? Thanks for the bandwidth. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
> Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application > on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video > card instead of a terminal? Primarily cost I'm led to believe. There were also games that took advantage of primitive graphics characters. Thanks, Jonathan
[cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Hi all, I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? Thanks for the bandwidth. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
Hi all. It helps to be clear on what you mean. Referring to a technology or app without being specific may ruin its reputation and what is was intended to be used for. Discord was not intended to be an archive for information, just a way to encourage the dissemination of information in a usable/ timely way. Wiki’s are good for archiving info, as is the Internet Archive, but both Wikipedia and the IA are struggling financially and will probably fold unless they come up with a better business model for growth and sustainability. I don’t think any private entity will be able to save internet information long term. Hell even Yahoo groups shutdown and a lot of info was lost there. Even HP has lost a lot of the DEC archive of software and really made no attempt to recover it. I think the governments of the world might have to try to take on this challenge. At least, the library of Congress should be tasked with it. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 30, 2023, at 11:55, Seth Morabito via cctalk > wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, at 11:30 AM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> This dislike of “Discord” has touched a nerve for me. It’s also one of >> the reasons the cctalk list has lost most of it value. >> Discord is a collection of channels most devoted to specific subjects >> that you more or less subscribe to. It’s just a server and you need an >> invite to join a group. I’m in the Classic computer group and find it >> to be filled with knowledge people willing to share that knowledge with >> others. >> Saying you don’t like “Discord” is like saying you don’t like TV. If >> you don’t like the content, simply don’t watch it. Don’t blame the >> medium. > > It's not that I don't like the content, it's that content accessibility is > awful. We're moving important information from a publicly available, > searchable, indexable web, and putting it into a walled garden where you > can't find it unless you sign up for a service, find the right server, and > join it. > > Let me be more clear: I love the CHAT feature of Discord. It's perfect for > that. It's a great place to discuss things in real time. But it is dreadful > as a replacement for forums and archives. > > Every time a phpBB forum shuts down and deletes its archive we lose history. > The new history being made on Discord is never going to be a viable > replacement because it's a closed system behind locked doors. Even when you > get the key to the doors and join a server, good luck finding information > that's well laid out, organized, searchable, and accessible. And good luck > exporting that information. > > We already have wikis, we already have forums. Let them do what they're good > at, leave Discord for real-time discussion. Anything less is just a sad, sad > waste of potential and robbing from the future. > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, at 11:30 AM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > This dislike of “Discord” has touched a nerve for me. It’s also one of > the reasons the cctalk list has lost most of it value. > Discord is a collection of channels most devoted to specific subjects > that you more or less subscribe to. It’s just a server and you need an > invite to join a group. I’m in the Classic computer group and find it > to be filled with knowledge people willing to share that knowledge with > others. > Saying you don’t like “Discord” is like saying you don’t like TV. If > you don’t like the content, simply don’t watch it. Don’t blame the > medium. It's not that I don't like the content, it's that content accessibility is awful. We're moving important information from a publicly available, searchable, indexable web, and putting it into a walled garden where you can't find it unless you sign up for a service, find the right server, and join it. Let me be more clear: I love the CHAT feature of Discord. It's perfect for that. It's a great place to discuss things in real time. But it is dreadful as a replacement for forums and archives. Every time a phpBB forum shuts down and deletes its archive we lose history. The new history being made on Discord is never going to be a viable replacement because it's a closed system behind locked doors. Even when you get the key to the doors and join a server, good luck finding information that's well laid out, organized, searchable, and accessible. And good luck exporting that information. We already have wikis, we already have forums. Let them do what they're good at, leave Discord for real-time discussion. Anything less is just a sad, sad waste of potential and robbing from the future. -Seth -- Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
> This dislike of “Discord” has touched a nerve for me. It’s also one > of the reasons the cctalk list has lost most of it value. Discord is > a collection of channels most devoted to specific subjects that you > more or less subscribe to. It’s just a server and you need an invite > to join a group. I’m in the Classic computer group and find it to be > filled with knowledge people willing to share that knowledge with > others. Saying you don’t like “Discord” is like saying you don’t > like TV. If you don’t like the content, simply don’t watch it. Don’t > blame the medium. No, you've completely missed the point. Many of us strongly dislike _Discord_. Strongly enough to refuse to participate in any activity going on in a Discord channel. Discord-the-organization has a long history of being privacy intrusive, banning alternative clients, and other sorts of malfeasance. De
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
/ simply don’t watch it. Don’t blame the medium. / I'm sorry but I have to disagree. The way that discord presents the information vs a forum style or even Facebook style is, to me, very very distracting and hard to communicate across. The constant chatter, distracting graphics and animations, etc. make it difficult, again for me, to find and clean the information that I am looking for. In my opinion, the forum construct is a much much better way to disseminate information and carry on category and subject oriented conversations. Just jump on the VCF DEC forum and see that there are conversations going on from PDP-9 Restoration to OS/8 Internals to PDP-11 Operating systems. And since there are forums for most every vintage computer category you don't get assailed with noise that you aren't interested in like in the mailing lists. On 8/30/2023 1:30 PM, Wayne S wrote: This dislike of “Discord” has touched a nerve for me. It’s also one of the reasons the cctalk list has lost most of it value. Discord is a collection of channels most devoted to specific subjects that you more or less subscribe to. It’s just a server and you need an invite to join a group. I’m in the Classic computer group and find it to be filled with knowledge people willing to share that knowledge with others. Saying you don’t like “Discord” is like saying you don’t like TV. If you don’t like the content, simply don’t watch it. Don’t blame the medium. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 30, 2023, at 11:11, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: I have to second the motion. In my opinion in general social media is a waste of time and energy. I understand the time it takes to run VCF but to have multiple possible different places (webiste, ICM, discord, etc) to get information is a bit much, especially for us old farts. Discord contributes as much noise as it does relevant information. My suggestion would be to use the website as the primary source of information and write Java/Jacascript/PDP/Json code to take any website updates and forward them to any other desired channel. That way all channels get the same information virtually simultaneously without any human effort than the the info on the main website. On 8/30/2023 11:35 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: On 8/30/23 11:25 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, at 7:26 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: All the VCFMW info is on the Discord server. I swear to God, Discord will be the end of the open Internet, it's where information goes to die. I hate it with every fiber of my being. And yes, I use it, I'm on many servers. I'm still allowed to detest it. -Seth I have heard of Discord, but have not had a need to use it. Odd thathttps://vcfmw.org/ does not have an obvious link for Discord if it is where we are expected to find useful information. Would I need to have a Discord account (and be a member of some group) to see this information? --tom
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
Also, it run on Google Cloud so being centralized is a dubious distinction. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 30, 2023, at 11:49, Wayne S wrote: > > Just like Twitter (X), Facebook, Google, Yahoo or just about any online > business. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 30, 2023, at 11:43, Raphaël Jacquot via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> >> Le 30/08/2023 à 20:30, Wayne S via cctalk a écrit : >>> This dislike of “Discord” has touched a nerve for me. It’s also one of the >>> reasons the cctalk list has lost most of it value. >>> Discord is a collection of channels most devoted to specific subjects that >>> you more or less subscribe to. It’s just a server and you need an invite to >>> join a group. I’m in the Classic computer group and find it to be filled >>> with knowledge people willing to share that knowledge with others. >>> Saying you don’t like “Discord” is like saying you don’t like TV. If you >>> don’t like the content, simply don’t watch it. Don’t blame the medium. >> >> The main issue with discord is that it's a centralized service dependant on >> one particular company which may fold anytime, and that can decide to >> destroy forums runing on their servers at any time for any reason. >> >> >> Raphaël
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
Just like Twitter (X), Facebook, Google, Yahoo or just about any online business. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 30, 2023, at 11:43, Raphaël Jacquot via cctalk > wrote: > > > >> Le 30/08/2023 à 20:30, Wayne S via cctalk a écrit : >> This dislike of “Discord” has touched a nerve for me. It’s also one of the >> reasons the cctalk list has lost most of it value. >> Discord is a collection of channels most devoted to specific subjects that >> you more or less subscribe to. It’s just a server and you need an invite to >> join a group. I’m in the Classic computer group and find it to be filled >> with knowledge people willing to share that knowledge with others. >> Saying you don’t like “Discord” is like saying you don’t like TV. If you >> don’t like the content, simply don’t watch it. Don’t blame the medium. > > The main issue with discord is that it's a centralized service dependant on > one particular company which may fold anytime, and that can decide to destroy > forums runing on their servers at any time for any reason. > > > Raphaël
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
Le 30/08/2023 à 20:30, Wayne S via cctalk a écrit : This dislike of “Discord” has touched a nerve for me. It’s also one of the reasons the cctalk list has lost most of it value. Discord is a collection of channels most devoted to specific subjects that you more or less subscribe to. It’s just a server and you need an invite to join a group. I’m in the Classic computer group and find it to be filled with knowledge people willing to share that knowledge with others. Saying you don’t like “Discord” is like saying you don’t like TV. If you don’t like the content, simply don’t watch it. Don’t blame the medium. The main issue with discord is that it's a centralized service dependant on one particular company which may fold anytime, and that can decide to destroy forums runing on their servers at any time for any reason. Raphaël
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
This dislike of “Discord” has touched a nerve for me. It’s also one of the reasons the cctalk list has lost most of it value. Discord is a collection of channels most devoted to specific subjects that you more or less subscribe to. It’s just a server and you need an invite to join a group. I’m in the Classic computer group and find it to be filled with knowledge people willing to share that knowledge with others. Saying you don’t like “Discord” is like saying you don’t like TV. If you don’t like the content, simply don’t watch it. Don’t blame the medium. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 30, 2023, at 11:11, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > I have to second the motion. In my opinion in general social media is a > waste of time and energy. > > I understand the time it takes to run VCF but to have multiple possible > different places (webiste, ICM, discord, etc) to get information is a bit > much, especially for us old farts. > > Discord contributes as much noise as it does relevant information. > > My suggestion would be to use the website as the primary source of > information and write Java/Jacascript/PDP/Json code to take any website > updates and forward them to any other desired channel. > > That way all channels get the same information virtually simultaneously > without any human effort than the the info on the main website. > >> On 8/30/2023 11:35 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >>> On 8/30/23 11:25 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: >>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, at 7:26 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: All the VCFMW info is on the Discord server. >>> I swear to God, Discord will be the end of the open Internet, it's where >>> information goes to die. I hate it with every fiber of my being. And yes, I >>> use it, I'm on many servers. I'm still allowed to detest it. >>> >>> -Seth >> I have heard of Discord, but have not had a need to use it. Odd that >> https://vcfmw.org/ does not have an obvious link for Discord if it is where >> we are expected to find useful information. Would I need to have a Discord >> account (and be a member of some group) to see this information? >> >> --tom >> >
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
I have to second the motion. In my opinion in general social media is a waste of time and energy. I understand the time it takes to run VCF but to have multiple possible different places (webiste, ICM, discord, etc) to get information is a bit much, especially for us old farts. Discord contributes as much noise as it does relevant information. My suggestion would be to use the website as the primary source of information and write Java/Jacascript/PDP/Json code to take any website updates and forward them to any other desired channel. That way all channels get the same information virtually simultaneously without any human effort than the the info on the main website. On 8/30/2023 11:35 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: On 8/30/23 11:25 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, at 7:26 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: All the VCFMW info is on the Discord server. I swear to God, Discord will be the end of the open Internet, it's where information goes to die. I hate it with every fiber of my being. And yes, I use it, I'm on many servers. I'm still allowed to detest it. -Seth I have heard of Discord, but have not had a need to use it. Odd that https://vcfmw.org/ does not have an obvious link for Discord if it is where we are expected to find useful information. Would I need to have a Discord account (and be a member of some group) to see this information? --tom
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 12:45 PM Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > On 8/30/23 11:25 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, at 7:26 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > >> All the VCFMW info is on the Discord server. > > I swear to God, Discord will be the end of the open Internet, it's where > information goes to die. I hate it with every fiber of my being. And yes, I > use it, I'm on many servers. I'm still allowed to detest it. > > > > -Seth > I have heard of Discord, but have not had a need to use it. Odd that > https://vcfmw.org/ does not > have an obvious link for Discord if it is where we are expected to find > useful information. Would I > need to have a Discord account (and be a member of some group) to see this > information? > Generally, Jason has been posting things on the vcfmw.org site as they happen. The classiccmp discord server invite was sent to this list in this message if you want to join: https://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2020-April/043238.html The #vcf channel is bridge to the irc.libera.chat irc server on channel #vcfmw, and is another place you can ask for info. Pat
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
DEC did make the Interprocessor Buffer (M8326) for the Ominibus. That allowed for relatively high speed communications between machines. You could also do some kind of serial network like Lantastic. I know some company made an SDLC board set for the omnibus. On 8/30/2023 8:04 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Aug 29, 2023, at 8:46 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: -BUT- That does not mean it *can't* be restored, only that $15,000 is ridiculous for a machine that clearly needs an expert with time and money. b True, it is a silly price. I was thinking about this on the forum: If someone offers to buy one of my fully running 8/L's for 6k I'll put in an offer on this one for 3k and restore it. The extra 3k will be used to buy beer to help me forget about all of the little mouse ghosts I'm going to find. :-) I'd offer 3k for it outright, but to be honest I can't have 3 pdp8/L's AND an 8/e. At some point I'd have to wire them into some sort of nightmare SMP pdp8 Or DECnet/8, though I suspect an 8/L can't run that. paul
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
On 8/30/23 11:25 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, at 7:26 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: All the VCFMW info is on the Discord server. I swear to God, Discord will be the end of the open Internet, it's where information goes to die. I hate it with every fiber of my being. And yes, I use it, I'm on many servers. I'm still allowed to detest it. -Seth I have heard of Discord, but have not had a need to use it. Odd that https://vcfmw.org/ does not have an obvious link for Discord if it is where we are expected to find useful information. Would I need to have a Discord account (and be a member of some group) to see this information? --tom
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, at 7:26 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > All the VCFMW info is on the Discord server. I swear to God, Discord will be the end of the open Internet, it's where information goes to die. I hate it with every fiber of my being. And yes, I use it, I'm on many servers. I'm still allowed to detest it. -Seth -- Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
On 2023-08-29 6:46 a.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: -BUT- That does not mean it *can't* be restored, only that $15,000 is ridiculous for a machine that clearly needs an expert with time and money. b True, it is a silly price. I was thinking about this on the forum: If someone offers to buy one of my fully running 8/L's for 6k I'll put in an offer on this one for 3k and restore it. The extra 3k will be used to buy beer to help me forget about all of the little mouse ghosts I'm going to find. :-) I'd offer 3k for it outright, but to be honest I can't have 3 pdp8/L's AND an 8/e. At some point I'd have to wire them into some sort of nightmare SMP pdp8 Hm. C How about a 36 bit PDP-8L? :)
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
We've got a standby list of about 10 people so far. Did you fill in the table reservation Google form that Jason sent to this list a couple weeks ago? Feel free to bring things and there's a chance you might fit in. There's some options we're exploring. Patrick Finnegan On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 10:22 Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > I know I was a little late in making a reservation for a > vendor table at the VCF MW. > > But, last year they were able to fit me in. Now, I have > made my request, and not heard ANYTHING whatsoever, even > that they are working on it. The VCFMW web site was last > updated in JUNE! Does anybody know what is going on? The > web site has vague warnings that overflow vendors might end > up exhibiting from the trunks of their cars in the parking > lot. Last year the lot was totally filled and people were > parking on the grass behind the building. Chicago weather > can be real changeable in the fall, and it was raining when > we tried to load out our stuff on Sunday afternoon. > > Thanks for any comments on what is really going on! > > Jon > >
[cctalk] Re: VCFMW vendor tables
All the VCFMW info is on the Discord server. -- Will On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 10:22 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > I know I was a little late in making a reservation for a > vendor table at the VCF MW. > > But, last year they were able to fit me in. Now, I have > made my request, and not heard ANYTHING whatsoever, even > that they are working on it. The VCFMW web site was last > updated in JUNE! Does anybody know what is going on? The > web site has vague warnings that overflow vendors might end > up exhibiting from the trunks of their cars in the parking > lot. Last year the lot was totally filled and people were > parking on the grass behind the building. Chicago weather > can be real changeable in the fall, and it was raining when > we tried to load out our stuff on Sunday afternoon. > > Thanks for any comments on what is really going on! > > Jon >
[cctalk] VCFMW vendor tables
I know I was a little late in making a reservation for a vendor table at the VCF MW. But, last year they were able to fit me in. Now, I have made my request, and not heard ANYTHING whatsoever, even that they are working on it. The VCFMW web site was last updated in JUNE! Does anybody know what is going on? The web site has vague warnings that overflow vendors might end up exhibiting from the trunks of their cars in the parking lot. Last year the lot was totally filled and people were parking on the grass behind the building. Chicago weather can be real changeable in the fall, and it was raining when we tried to load out our stuff on Sunday afternoon. Thanks for any comments on what is really going on! Jon
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
> On Aug 29, 2023, at 8:46 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: > > >> -BUT- That does not mean it *can't* be restored, only that $15,000 is >> ridiculous for a machine that clearly needs an expert with time and money. >> b > > True, it is a silly price. I was thinking about this on the forum: If someone > offers to buy one of my fully running 8/L's for 6k I'll put in an offer on > this one for 3k and restore it. The extra 3k will be used to buy beer to help > me forget about all of the little mouse ghosts I'm going to find. :-) > > I'd offer 3k for it outright, but to be honest I can't have 3 pdp8/L's AND an > 8/e. At some point I'd have to wire them into some sort of nightmare SMP > pdp8 Or DECnet/8, though I suspect an 8/L can't run that. paul
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
> On Aug 29, 2023, at 7:02 AM, Gavin Scott via cctalk > wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 6:22 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk > wrote: >> You reckon someone in Moscow is wishing they heard about this trick a week >> ago? > > They instead chose the ever-popular Simplified Planetary Landing > Approach Trajectory. Ok, that’s funny right there. David A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? David Barto ba...@kdbarto.org
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
-BUT- That does not mean it *can't* be restored, only that $15,000 is ridiculous for a machine that clearly needs an expert with time and money. b True, it is a silly price. I was thinking about this on the forum: If someone offers to buy one of my fully running 8/L's for 6k I'll put in an offer on this one for 3k and restore it. The extra 3k will be used to buy beer to help me forget about all of the little mouse ghosts I'm going to find. :-) I'd offer 3k for it outright, but to be honest I can't have 3 pdp8/L's AND an 8/e. At some point I'd have to wire them into some sort of nightmare SMP pdp8 Hm. C
[cctalk] Re: NewtonOS
I worked in an Apple repair center when they came out. Customers were bringing them in saying, "this doesn't work." It was working as well as it could, which wasn't very well... great idea though! Ahead of it's technology a bit.
