> From: W2HX
> I filter on category "Computers/tablets & Networking." It might not have
> shown up in your search if you searching in "Vintage Computing"
> category.
Oh, I forgot to mention: I always search in 'All Categories' precisely to
avoid misfiled entries (like this one). (
So someone mentioned this to me:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/222941705847
Now, the crazy thing is that I religously do a search for "PDP-11" for newly
listed items on eBait at least once a day - and this never showed up! I just
did a search for sold "PDP-11" items, and it's not showing up there ei
> From: Charles Anthony
> discovered that changing the executable would change the behavior -- a
> heisenbug.
Ooh, love that neologism.
Noel
> From: Eric Smith
> But then, some of us might be masochists.
I think pretty much by definition if you're into vintage computers, you have
to be a masochist... :-)
Noel
> From: Paul Birkel
> the blinky-lights controller panel top-dead-center :->.
Yeah, that's a TC08.
I actually have one of those inlays, it's the only original inlay I have. It
was the model for the large run of blank inlays (black backing with the holes
on the back, but nothing on the fr
> From: Ed Sharpe
> wish this was closer!
Two words: "ROAD TRIP!!!" :-)
(I did Virginia<->Wisconsin to save an -11/84... That was a hike!)
Noel
> From: Alan Frisbie
> I need a controller that emulates the DEC RLV11/RLV12 and RL01/RL02
> drives. From my Google searching, I see a couple that use SD or similar
> solid state devices.
Err, which RLV11/RLV12 emulators are you seeing? I know of several RL02
emulators - Reinhard
> From: Bill Gunshannon
> Caution!! The DSD board has some broken chips and bent pins and all of
> them look like they spent time in muddy water.
Thanks for catching that. I looked at it, saw that it was a DLV11-J, which I
didn't need, and so didn't look any harder.
Noel
This is listed under a useless title:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/292503681011
But it's (currently) cheap (don't all bid against each other ;-).
Noel
> From: Aaron Jackson
> I have tried three controllers, two r/w modules and two servo
> controllers. I'm beginning to think the drive is fine and there is a
> problem with the RLV21 controller.
Err, think you mean RLV12 QBUS controller board, right?
Anyway, you've already tried
> From: Sytse van Slooten
> digging through the documentation of KL-11 and DL-11 I did find
> references to generating a break (bit 0 in the XCSR). But not on how it
> would be received. ... How did a DL-11 like interface signal the
> reception of a break?
As JohnW says, frami
> From: Liam Proven
> And yet, 3 generations later
Can we please keep _all_ politics off the list? It didn't go so well
last time.
Noel
> From: Al Kossow
> The only place I ever saw an Apple I when it was for sale.
Don't you wish you'd bought one - and kept it? :-)
Noel
> I'll have to redo my kludgy fix to gmtime() ... I guess I'll have to fix
> it for real, instead of my kludgy fix (which extended it to work for
> 16-bit results). :-)
> ...
> And on the -11/23:
> Note that the returned 'quotient' is simply the high part of the dividend.
H
> From: Allison
>> What about warm white LEDs, though? ... maybe they are available in
>> bulb replacement form?
> I used a supply of dead bulbs to make mine. a little heat and the glass
> goes, a resistor and a 3mm led and good to go.
Urr, I'm not up to making them! I was r
So, I have discovered, to my astonishment, that the double-word version of the
DIV instruction on the PDP-11 won't do a divide if the result won't fit into
15 bits. OK, I can understand it bitching if the quotient wouldn't fit into 16
bits - but what's the problem with returning an unsigned quotien
> From: Allison
> you have to pull the panel apart to replace them, gets tiring. Modern
> yellow LEDs are nice and bright, and don't burn out.
> Less digging in the box is a good thing as over time fumble errors can
> hurt it.
Agree about replacing lamps - we switched to LEDs
> From: Charles Dickman
> Does anyone have DEC bus edge connectors they are willing to sell?
> I would like to do some OMNIBUS interface prototyping and I need a way
> to connect to the bus back-plane.
Have you looked through Douglas Electronics' offerings? They have a lot of
DEC
> From: Steven Malikoff
> I also have a book 'RADAR How it all began' by Jim Brown ...
> incredibly precise recollection of the engineering
Wow, thanks for that incredibly valuable pointer. My copy just arrived, and
it's fabulous; it documents in great detail a part of the story that
> From: Cindy Croxton
> I finally found it!
Oh, that is so awesome! Thank you for keeping an eye out!
(I'm sure somehow it will get saved - Seth, let us know if you do, otherwise
we can organize something.)
Noel
So I have an M837 (KM8-E Memory Extension and Time-Share option for the
PDP-8/E, -8/F & -8/M) available; got it with a group of other cards, and I
have no use for it.
Anyone want it, and have (or can acquire :-) anything PDP-11ish (boards,
mounting hardware, manuals, prints, I'm not picky - althou
Hey, all, a quick update on recent progress.
I now have a working prototype to match Dave's (although he's still doing all
the real work), and we've made a minor improvement in them (re-wired things so
we can use shorter cables to the FPGA daughter-card).
I got my indicator panel working, it look
> From: William Donzelli
> Germany often gets the short end of the stick when it come to radar
> tech in World War 2
For those who are interested in German radar, there's a good book:
David Pritchard, "The Radar War: Germany's Pioneering Achievement
1904-45", 1989
which
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Spring cleaning, Noel? :-)
Yeah, sort of! These came with a bunch of PDP-11 boards I bought on eBay,
and they're just clutter. More stuff coming soon!
Noel
OK, another pair of unknown extender cards:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/tmp/LargeExtender.jpg
If anyone has a use for one or both, FTGH.
They are 17"x10", and the support arms (nice touch) are about 3" long.
No identifying marks that I can perceive, alas. The power leads are titled
> From: Brian Marstella
> I have a CPU board with similar format that I bought thinking I'd
> eventually figure it out.
A couple of people have replied privately telling me it's for a Motorola
EXORbus/EXORciser.
Noel
> From: Bob Smith
> reminds me of S100 bus
That was my first thought, until I counted the pins...
Noel
Hi, I'm not sure what kind of system this extender card:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/tmp/SmallExtender.jpg
is for, but if anyone has a use for it, FTGH. It has 2x43=86
contacts.
Noel
Hi all, I have an extra "RX8/RX11 floopy disk system user's manual" I'd like
to trade off for something I'd find useful (anything PDP-11 which I don't
already have, preferably). Anyone?
Noel
> From: Jon Elson
> if they did air raids over France or Germany, that eventually a plane
> with one would get shot down and a magnetron would be obtained in
> relatively good shape. So, likely by 1942 it was considered to no
> longer be a secret.
One was lost near Rotterdam i
> From: Chuck Guzis
> the magnetron was made out to be a super-secret device, yet there's a
> clear explanation of it in my 1942 "Radio Handbook".
Ordinary magnetrons had indeed been around for a while; they were invented in
1920. The British invention was the _cavity magnetron_, a qu
> From: Paul Koning
> RTI/RTT are used in the debugger, so they need to work in user mode.
> They refuse to raise your privilege level, though.
I understand that it has uses, but by specifying the 'failure' mode in User
mode (when the contents of the current or previous modes is not U
> From: Jerry Weiss
> Typically execution of the RESET instruction in a user program is
> treated as a NOP
Yeah, that's not documented in most PDP-11 CPU manuals, either. It's one of
the things that makes the PDP-11 impossible to virtualize; only HALT and SPL
trap, IIRC. M[TF]P[ID] do
> From: Charles Dickman
> So if the I/O page is completely (all processor modes) unmapped is
> there any way to recover besides a power cycle? Does the RESET
> instruction disable the MMU?
Interesting questions!
The CPU manuals don't say, about the RE$ET; I just tried it on the /
> On many of the PDP-11s that page is signified by asserting BBS7
QBUS machines only; the UNIBUS has no equivalent signal.
> FYI the microPDP-11/53 is the 11/23+ cpu card
Err, no; according to the "MicroPDP11/53 System Supplement Manual"
(AZ-GPTAA-MC), pg. 3-1, the CPU card in the /53 is
> From: Douglas Taylor
> Is there a document that describes the bank 7 memory page and what
> addresses are reserved for what?
Here's one I collated from a large number of DEC manuals:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/UNIBUS_Registers.txt
(Ignore the name, it applies to QB
> From: Kurt Hamm
> If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it.
You probably already know this, but... My sense is that a collector of
classic computers has to be able to diagnose and repair at the component
level - get in there with an oscilloscope and a set of prints (creating t
> From: Aaron Jackson
> I am wondering if anyone would be willing to sell me an RL02K cartridge
> for a sensible price?
There are a bunch listed on eBait for not wholly unrealistic prices; I
wouldn't buy a bunch there, but it you only need one, for testing... Not sure
if any of the on
> From: Grant Taylor
> I'm on a list where it seems as if a frequent contributer uses an MUA
> that does not send In-Reply-To or References headers at all. It doesn't
> even send a User-Agent header. *sigh*
That's me, I expect.
I used to use a TOPS-20 email reader called MM, and
> From: geneb
> they've got a DPS-8 maintenance/operator/? panel ... It's fully
> operational and is connected via some magic hardware to a Raspberry Pi
> running a Multics emulator.
Technically it's an H6180; the DPS-8 is a later generation of hardware in the
same family. More he
> From: Al Kossow
>> On 2/18/18 12:20 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
>> ... his 709 went to the CHM. Anything else of the big stuff?
> the 7094 and 650
A 7094? Neat! Very historic machine.
I wonder if it would be possible to fabricate the extras needed to run CTSS
on it...
> From: Dave Wade
> Or pick up the signals from the wire wrap
I think the OP's approach - disable the on-board console - is probably best:
that port is limited to 2400 baud, and with DL11's being a dime a dozen (OK,
I exaggerate a bit, but only slightly - they're available for about $25).
So I bought some of those fiche that that eBay seller had, for publications I
couldn't locate (either physical, or online), but now that I have a complete
set of fische, the duplicates aren't any use. So, if anyone has a use for
them, let me know, FTGH:
They are:
BA11-N Tech Manual
BA11-N Use
> From: sop0h
> I read in somebodies note about jumpers @W1 and W2 on the M7261F that I
> have. Apparently cutting one of these disables the onboard uart and
> will allow me to put in a serial card.
Yes, W1. And it's not cutting, it's inserting.
> I cant find the jumpers.
> From: Grant Taylor
> I've had plenty of things that I've found and referenced over the years
> that have disappeared from where I knew it was.
Ah, bit rot - the scourge of the Web. Thank G-d for the Internet Archive!
Although at least one major list archive had been marked to exclu
Is the code for the KDF11-B ROMs available in machine-readable source
anywhere? I looked with Google, but couldn't find anything.
Eventually I recalled having seen it in the fiche, which was better than
nothing (disassembling something that size to see how it worked was, ah,
unappealing, shall we
> From: Terry Stewart
> If I had to go to that extent of writing it as a robust, referenced,
> refereed, definitive technical article, I probably wouldn't bother.
Sure. Neither would I. But how is this relevant to the CHWiki question?
Noel
> From: Bill Degnan
> What is the OS of the disks, what system was this disk used to
> create/save files to the RL02?
Doesn't really matter, does it, as long as the bits can all be read off the
pack into a file?
Once it's in a file, the appropriate OS, running in a simulator (and mos
> From: Grant Taylor
>> people are more likely to find it, when they're looking for info on a
>> topic, if it's part of something like the CHWiki, than they are on
>> individual Web sites.
> I question the validity of it.
It wasn't just supposition on my part; as I had mentio
> From: Mattis Lind
> Many are already available online but some I cannot find.
Which ones are you missing? I'm curious to see if my set has them.
Noel
> From: Grant Taylor cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net
> Sorry if this comes across wrong. ... I'm replying in an attempt to
> provide a counter point for a discussion of reality. So please don't
> take this as an attack on you, or your laudable appeal.
No problem!
> When
> From: Terry Stewart
>
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-MS-DOS-and-Win98.htm
> Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do
> this.
Hi, can I appeal to you (and everyone else who writes up these kinds of
notes) to put this stuff
Can anyone help 'Darkstar' with this:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/Talk:Installing_4.3_BSD%2BNFS_Wisconsin_Unix
Noel
> From: Lars Brinkhoff
> notes on his progress are here:
> https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/284
Ah, that sounds pretty good. The ability to re-create source, given the FASL,
will really help.
> In 1982 MIT licensed Macsyma to Symbolics, but also made it available
> to the
> From: Lars Brinkhoff
> Right, we haven't found sources for everything in Macsyma.
Ow. How much, very roughly, is missing (if you happen to know) - 5%, 50%?
> I'd say we're lucky to have it running at all
Good point!
Noel
> From: Lars Brinkhoff
> It's frankensteined together from a mix of source and FASL files
FASL? So some of the sources are apparently gone?
Noel
> From: Phil Budne
> FWIW, Found these bits
> ...
> Those bits and others can be found
Excellent archaeology! With these, and the ITS sources (for which we have both
the -10 and -11 sides), the register definitions in the early PDP-10 CPU
manual, and the prints, it should be possi
> From: Rich Alderson
> I'm going to disagree with the history Al posted, because Dick himself
> told me the story.
What was the history according to Dick, if you recall? Would he still be
available, to write it as he saw it down himself?
Noel
> From: David Bridgham
> Our plan is to produce a Unibus board as well, we just chose the QBUS
> first.
For no particularly strong reasons; I had working QBUS machines, and
prototyping cards, etc, etc.
> (actually, this should work with Q18 QBUS systems as well)
Goodness, never
> From: David Bridgham
> today we booted v6 Unix successfully for the first time.
As in, the OS image was loaded from the SD card, then started up using only
the SD card for 'disk'. So this is a pretty major milestone. It's been a long
road (I just looked, and we started on this in the su
> From: Marc Howard
> All the unit has is a thin rail on both sides that is riveted to the
> unit. It looks like chassis slides were there originally. Does anyone
> have either the DEC part # for the slides
I sent these to the list a while back, and never added them to the CHWiki
> From: Mark J. Blair
> I have a single decpack cartridge ... It's marked "decpack 2200 BPI-12"
> and has 12 sector notches in the hub. Does that mean that it was most
> likely used with an RK05 drive in a PDP-11 system?
Yes.
> I hope that I can procure a matching drive for i
> From: Mark Matlock
>Any device which uses backplane pins BC1, BD1, BEl, BF1 or DC1, 001,
>DEl, OF!
Those last are probably typos for "DD1, DE1, DF1".
> Several other pins are also tied to ground on that connector such as
> BC2, BJ1, and BT1.
Yeah, those are all sta
> From: Marc Howard
> what's the difference between a KK11-A and KK11-B?
KK11-A -> -11/34
KK11-B -> -11/44
Noel
> From: Fritz Mueller
> My restored RK05 drives are missing their rear air filters (the ones that
> cover the back of the card cage).
The formal DEC name is "prefilter" (since the air that comes in here goes
through the cards, and the air blower, and then through the absolute filter
o
> From: Mattis Lind
> I have now scanned the MP00574 / KK11-A printset I have received.
Thank you very much for doing that! Those prints were one of the main missing
PDP-11 print sets.
> Hope the quality is good enough.
It looks good to me.
Noel
> From: TeoZ
> mouse (optical mice are better then the old ones with balls). I even
> keep old ball mice around ... and those do wear out)
Huh? I've got old ball mice I've been using for years; they don't wear out.
The wires do get flaky after a long period of use (at which point I st
So this lot:
https://www.ebay.com/itm//192436422371
claims to be an -11/04, but there are no boards in it. However... the first
backplane (of two) is a DD11-P, which is the backplane for the /34 as well as
the /04. And there are /34 CPU boards available on eBait at the moment. Pick
up a pair
> From: Chuck Guzis
> On 01/23/2018 04:04 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> they mention they used CATV technology (where the vampire taps come
>> from)
> Wasn't that ChaosNet?
The CHAOS net (capitalization varied, but original docs usually use two words)
hardware did use th
> From: Paul Koning
> The nominal OD of RG-8/U is .. within spec for Ethernet cable.
Oh, OK. I was just used to the 10Mb cable we used being slightly larger than
the 3Mb cable we used.
> Also, Ethernet requires a solid inner conductor (for the tap) while
> RG-8/U may come strande
> From: Grant Taylor
> I can fairly clearly see the RG-8/U on the side of the cable that David
> is holding ... Sure, there was probably a better alternative that came
> along after, with better shielding and marking bands.
You keep mixing up the 3 Mbit and 10 Mbit. _They were no
> From: Chuck Guzis
> Really, is this any worse than the gold bugs scrapping whole systems
> for the prospective precious metal content?
Well, the latter are presumably in it as a business, whereas it seems these
people do it for 'fun'.
Now there's an idea: perhaps we could convince
> From: Grant Taylor
> According to the following page, it was not RG-8 cable ... As such it
> was purpose built.
The 10MBit cable, yes; it was custom (you can see 'Ethernet' printed on the
chunk in the picture). (I'd forgotten about the black stripes! I'm not sure
we really bothered
> From: Daniel Seagraves
> The Saturn software, which is what actually flew from Earth to the
> moon, was lost.
You mean the Instrumentation Unit on top of the S-IVB stage? That was
discarded when the S-IVB and CSM separated shortly after leaving Earth orbit
(about 6 hours after launc
> I just found a piece, I'll put up a photo.
Here ya go:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:3MegEthernetCable.jpg
http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:10MegEthernetCable.jpg
I should have put a ruler in, for scale. The 3M is about 2/3 of the thickness
of the 10M. The center conductor is about 2mm - pr
> From: Grant Taylor
> What makes the copies of papers printed on them special?
Well, the Dover was the first device (that I know of) that could print _very_
high-quality graphical/multi-font output, and on ordinary paper. It was also
pretty darned fast - a couple of seconds per sheet, II
So did we ever get an answer to the original question (the value of
a Sun3)? All I saw was 'you'd have to pay to recycle them'.
> From: Grant Taylor
>> Before that, if you were lucky enough to be at Stanford, MIT, or CMU,
>> you could use the Dover and Altos that were part of Xerox'
> From: Paul Koning
> I[t] just dawned on me that the subject is Apollo the company bought by
> HP, not Apollo the spacecraft. Oh well...
Actually, that stuff has all been saved, and run under simulators; there's
a very comprehensive site here:
http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/index.h
> From: Al Kossow
> vt11 is integrated into the 11/05 backplane on the gt40
Right (although I had forgotten that); I listed the 11/05 separately since I
do have data on how much they've been going for - in an attempt to roughly
value the lot. The GT40, however, no idea. (I recall one was
> From: Jonathan
> if someone wants to sticky this (here or in other forums), I think this
> would be a valuable resource for anyone wanting to use ImageDisk on
> non-PC formats.
How about someone doing an ImageDisk page on the Computer History Wiki; we
could include an 'External
> From: Kyle Owen
> A tenth the price of the Twiggy Lisa makes that auction look almost
> affordable! Final price was $5600.
Yeah, whoever bought that got, IMO, a pretty good deal (as I predicted). It's
a fair amount of money, but they got a _ton_ of stuff (probably literally :-).
I
> From: Eric Smith
> which would respond to ARP requests for non-local addresses and reply
> with the router's MAC address (on that interface), specifically in
> order to make classful-only hosts work on a CIDR network.
Yeah, Proxy ARP (an early RFC here:
https://www.rfc-editor
> From: Grant Taylor
>> It is TCP/IPv4, so it's got compatible headers
> Are you referring to the 802.3 Ethernet (vs Ethernet II) frame type
No, I meant the IP and TCP headers. Those are end-end; the Ethernet stuff is
just a local wrapping, and can be substituted.
> I was not aw
> From: Warner Losh
> I'm curious: does it inter-operate with modern TCP/IP implementations?
This just a guess, but 'sort of'? It _is_ TCP/IPv4, so it's got compatible
headers, but I don't know if other parts have changed enough to make it not
work.
E.g. it probably only supports class A
> From: Charles Anthony
> it was shipped has an "unbundled" product.
Ah. I assumed that what had happened was that the set of source files at MIT
was just what was in the 'last release', and the NCP code had been discarded
by then.
I wonder if it's on a backup tape that MIT retained, som
> From: Phil Budne
> I asked around for v6 Unix with "NCP" code when the IMP code was
> resurected, but never found it
Yeah, that one was retrieved only recently, when Chuck managed to read an old
dump tape I had of the MIT-CSR PWB1 Unix PDP-11. We didn't run NCP on that
machine,
> From: Lars Brinkhoff
> - Multics NCP has not been located.
Really? It wasn't in the code dump at MIT?
> - Unix?
For V6 NCP, we have several versions:
http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=SRI-NOSC
http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=BBN-V6
(The latter include
> From: Jay West
> I'm wary of just sending the tape through the mail for imaging
Why? I sent some tapes out to Chuck to get read, those went by USPS, and no
problem (well, one had some drop-outs, but they were old and not in great
shape; the other one read fine).
Noel
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Definitely an RK11-C
Ah; the dual-wide plug-in connector soldered onto the back kind of threw me a
bit!
> And it would make sense with the diablo and the RK05 in there.
Right, but I wonder if the RK05 is on the same controller as the Diablo, or if
the PDP-8 h
> From: Ali
> why is there potential for the system to go for insane amounts of money?
I'm going to guess that Al had the GT40 in mind. (I wonder if that was named
after the car, BTW?) I don't see anything else there that's _that_ desirable -
the Diablo (aka RK02/RK03) is pretty rare, and
So why are reels of DECtape selling for unbelievable prices on eBait? See,
e.g. here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/372186744906
and here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/372186745609
I can't believe there are hordes of TU55/TU56 owners out there who desperately
need media; so what is it? People who th
> From: Paul Anderson
> I wonder what happened to the third rack...
And the TU-56...
I'm going to disagree with Al, though - I don't think it's going to go for
that much, it's 'local pickup only'. That's going to severely limit the
bidder pool.
Noel
> From: Liam Proven
> I had a major WTF moment at that. The actress had a prior or parallel
> career as an engineer?
Why not? Hedy Lamarr:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr
invented spread spectrum communications! :-)
> From: Dave Mitton
> I could ask John Shriv
> I'm to[o] busy right now to dig back through my ancient records (paper
> and email) to find details
So while I didn't have time to do either of these (my Proteon email, if I
still even have it, will be on a magtape I'd have to get Chuck to read; and
the paper records are mixed in with a
> From: Paul Koning
> That may be the story, but I don't believe it.
Well, I was right there - I was the chief architect of the Proteon router
product, for which John Moy worked, and was the person who pushed John into
doing OSPF (he didn't think he knew enough).
I'm to busy right now to
> From: Paul Koning
> That was then adopted by OSI as IS-IS, and further tweaked to become
> OSPF.
Err, no. OSPF was not a descendant of IS-IS - it was a separate development,
based mainly on the ARPANET's original link state routing. (I can't recall if
John Moy and I took a lot from
> From: Phil Budne
> ISTR the DTE was a DMA interface, not memory mapping like the DL10
I don't know either; I could probably work it out from looking at the DTE
documentation, which I'm too lazy/busy to do... :-)
> I also seem to recall that MC was designated as a "1080" which the a
> From: Phil Budne
> simulating the DL10 so you can run TVs would REALLY be bringing back a
> lost artifact!!
The Knight TV's were connected through the Rubin 10-11 interface, not a DL10.
> I'm pretty sure DN87S was a DN87 front end attached to a (KL) DTE
> (Ten/Eleven) inter
> From: Lars Brinkhoff
> Specifically, the DC76 supported by ITS.
>> The DL10 was used in two DEC system products, the DC76 Asynchronous
>> Communication System, and the DN87 and DN87S Universal Communication
>> System Front Ends. I couldn't find any documentation on the forme
> From: Pontus Pihlgren
> Thank you for sharing Noel.
Well, I thought people might find it useful. Over time,I've made a variety of
shelf designs to hold my boards, searching for something that worked really
well, and I liked this one so much I thought it was worth passing it on.
In fact
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