> From: Eric Smith
> The NS455 has firmware in masked ROM ... The NS405 has the masked ROM
> disabled
Ah, thanks muchly! Do you know of _any_ documentation extant for the 455? I
couldn't find anything..
> I've been searching for the NS405 manual (not the datasheet) for a very
> From: Kyle Owen
> I do have an 11/45, though... so with this modification, I suppose one
> could have some fun:
That's for the -11/40 - very different machine, one couldn't use the same
technique on the /45; the /40 is prepared to accept additional ucode on
additional CPU boards,
> From: Paul Birkel
> Same thing in this case.
The CPU looks to see a PMI signal that is generated by the KTJ11 - no signal
-> 11/83.
My impression is that except for the speed of the J11 (and the crystal), and
whether or not it came with the FPJ11, all four of the M8190 board variants
> From: Bill Gunshannon
> Anybody have any PMI memory modules they might let go for less than my
> first born male child?
The DEC PMI memories are the MSV11-J and (I think) the MSV11-R. The latter is
rare, but the -J's can be found. VARx sold me some -JE's a couple of years
back for
> From: Pete Turnbull
> Bill would want the -JD (2MB) version (the -JE version is 4MB so too
> big).
Err, the -JD is 1MB, and the -JE is 2MB (see e.g. EK-MSV1J-UG-001, pg. 1-3).
Noel
> From: Paul Koning
> I believe the original concept was just a probe that would poke through
> the cable to contact the center connector. The drill came because the
> cable was too tough to penetrate without it.
No, the original 3 Mbit Ethernet also used a 'drill' (actually, a
> the AMP coring tool ... doesn't screw in though ... I don't know if this
> is consistent with the original 3 mbit Ethernet, as I've never worked
> with that.
I was speaking of the gear used on the 3 Mbit. I don't recall the 10 Mbit
stuff at all I have this vague memory that the
Figure you HP fans will already have seen this, but in case not:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/332695779697
Noel
Hi, I'm looking for engineering info on the MSV11-J. I was unable to find any
prints online, or even a technical manual. (I have the User Manual, but it
doesn't
have much detail.)
The main issue I'm after is working out which bits go into which chips. I
have some other QBUS memory boards with
> From: js
> I've seen similar behavior before, and other search problems. At one
> point in time, eBay's search engine worked just fine. Then, a number of
> years ago, they revised their - supposedly making it 'smarter' - and
> ever since then, it hasn't worked as well
> From: Alan Perry
> They went unsold again and I waited for the next auction run. I offered
> the split-the-difference price again and they countered even higher. I
> got the message and have stopped bidding. That was a couple months ago
> and they still have sold any of
> From: W2HX
> I filter on category "Computers/tablets & Networking." It might not have
> shown up in your search if you searching in "Vintage Computing"
> category.
Oh, I forgot to mention: I always search in 'All Categories' precisely to
avoid misfiled entries (like this one).
Come on people, please i) try doing some actual research to see if theories
hold water, don't just quickly post, and ii) read prior posts thoroughly.
Searching for "pdp-11" (where the "'s are to indicate what's in the search
box, and are _not_ typed into the search box) turns up a host of items -
> From: Rob Jarratt
> I got this:
> ...
> For security, please keep all communication through the eBay message
> system.
Well, that bit sounds positive.
And the feedback sounds good, but 56 items is a bit low - I've heard of scams
where people do a number of small items to
> From: js
> To take a suggestion from your playbook, I'd try asking eBay - 'I'm
> getting incorrect search results. Why?'
Yeah, that would be something to try, but I was wary of stirring up trouble -
eBay might decide to void the sale, etc. Maybe I should.
My message to this list
> From: Ali
> There is a guy with a listing with missing parts which he is
> advertising as working. It has been listed for over two years now ...
> I offered to buy a part off of it for ~half of what he wanted
> for everything and he replied that "the value was in keeping it
> From: Kip Koon
> I was initially thinking of a strictly software only solution
Whatever you eventually do in the way of hardware, it might be a good idea to
start with this. You can get familiar with whatever OS you decide to go with,
and get used to its tools, get to know the
So, you have an RK05 drive, but you're missing the slides to mount it?
Your troubles are over (sort of :-).
It turns out the slide DEC used was the General Devices 'Chassis Trak'
C-230-S-122 (22") - and those are still available (e.g. from Newark). They're
somewhat pricey - the -124 (24") is
Hey all, I've been doing research on Multics front panels, which it turns out
are slightly different from those on the Honeywell 6000 series machines which
ran GCOS, and are often confused with them.
So, I've put together a Web page about them:
Multics and Related 6000 Series Front Panels
> From: "Rob Jarratt"
> Thanks for this info Noel.
Sure; I figured it would be useful to someone, glad to know it was.
> So it sounds like I would need the C-230-S-124. ... My metalworking
> abilities are limited.
If you don't want to have to do any mods, the C-230-S-122 is a
> From: "Rob Jarratt"
> I misread your email as suggesting that the 124 was more suitable than
> the 122
No, it's just cheaper (at the moment), and can be made to work.
> My H960 is not very accessible but I attempted to measure it front back
> and it may be 25". Do you know
> From: Kip Koon
> I tend to get emulation and simulation a bit confused.
You and me both!
I think part of the problem is that there is no generally-agreed-upon
definition of the two terms.
I like this one a lot, though:
Does anyone know who does this site:
http://decmuseum.org/index.html
I looked, and didn't see anything in the site itself, and doing a 'whois'
didn't turn up anything useful.
The site has some really nice PDP-5 photos which I was wondering if that
person could/would put in the public domain,
> From: Glen Slick
> There are 88 41256 256Kx1 DRAMs on a 2MB MSV11-J. Each 512KB bank has
> 22 256Kx1 DRAMs organized as 16 data bits plus 6 ECC bits.
Umm, I think the internal organization is paired banks (one for even word
addresses, one for odd); the manual talks about doing
> From: Paul Koning
> Here's what it looked like
Not having RT11, I embedded this in a small stand-alone program (which took a
little work, Unix assembler being rather different :-), so I could see it (it
wasn't obvious from the code what it did).
Pretty clever, to get that complex a
> From: Paul Koning
> RSTS-11 V4, which had a major reliability problem ... As part of trying
> to keep the customer placated, DEC supplied full OS sources, 5
> dectapes. ... We printed them ... I still have copies of those files.
Is that version available online? If not, maybe
So, I've been making wooden racks to hold a lot of my DEC boards, and I've
finally come up with a nice design for one, which holds quad boards:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/QuadRack.jpg
which holds them vertically.
It's much better than the dual rack next to it, which holds them
> From: Michael Zahorik
> a dozen or so spare boards for my PDP8E. I was wondering about how to
> store them. Some guys recommend some poly bags, others say it is
> important to protect against humidity. ... have you had any failures
> while in storage?
Well, i) most of my
> From: Mattis Lind
> Unfortunately I am not having any lutfisk this year. The rest of the
> family is not very fond of it.
I"m glad to see there are _some_ non-crazy people there! :-)
Anway, I can way top that - the tradition Bermudian Christmas dish is cassava
pie: make that wrong
> From: Steven Malikoff
> Using the new bolt info, it's refined a little more:
I just took a quick glance at this, and noticed on major thing that's off:
you're showing the bottom side of the stabilizer foot as at right angles to
the vertical of the rack; it's not. See here:
> From: Lars Brinkhoff
> Specifically, the DC76 supported by ITS.
>> The DL10 was used in two DEC system products, the DC76 Asynchronous
>> Communication System, and the DN87 and DN87S Universal Communication
>> System Front Ends. I couldn't find any documentation on the
> From: Phil Budne
> simulating the DL10 so you can run TVs would REALLY be bringing back a
> lost artifact!!
The Knight TV's were connected through the Rubin 10-11 interface, not a DL10.
> I'm pretty sure DN87S was a DN87 front end attached to a (KL) DTE
> (Ten/Eleven)
> I'm to[o] busy right now to dig back through my ancient records (paper
> and email) to find details
So while I didn't have time to do either of these (my Proteon email, if I
still even have it, will be on a magtape I'd have to get Chuck to read; and
the paper records are mixed in with a
>> From: Jim Stephens
>> I had a meeting with Ken Omohundro on 12/7 and will be having dinner
>> with him again soon. I'll ask him about it. I know he doesn't have any
>> records left, but I could take him your notes and see what he recalls.
> Thanks very much for that offer;
> From: Paul Koning
> That may be the story, but I don't believe it.
Well, I was right there - I was the chief architect of the Proteon router
product, for which John Moy worked, and was the person who pushed John into
doing OSPF (he didn't think he knew enough).
I'm to busy right now
> From: Phil Budne
> ISTR the DTE was a DMA interface, not memory mapping like the DL10
I don't know either; I could probably work it out from looking at the DTE
documentation, which I'm too lazy/busy to do... :-)
> I also seem to recall that MC was designated as a "1080" which the
> From: Paul Koning
> That was then adopted by OSI as IS-IS, and further tweaked to become
> OSPF.
Err, no. OSPF was not a descendant of IS-IS - it was a separate development,
based mainly on the ARPANET's original link state routing. (I can't recall if
John Moy and I took a lot from
> From: Lars Brinkhoff
> Richard Cornwell wants to implement DL10 for his KA10/KI10 simulator,
> but he doesn't have any documentation for it. Any leads?
Well The "decsystem10 System Reference Manual (DEC-10-XSRMA-A-D) -
available online:
> From: Pontus Pihlgren
> Thank you for sharing Noel.
Well, I thought people might find it useful. Over time,I've made a variety of
shelf designs to hold my boards, searching for something that worked really
well, and I liked this one so much I thought it was worth passing it on.
In
> From: Steven Malikoff
> That's the first actual photo I've seen of the foot, and I see what you
> mean.
Oh, I can take more, then; let me know what you need.
> Let's regard the inner vertical surface where it mates to the rack as
> the normal surface.
Right; that's our
> From: Charles Anthony
> it was shipped has an "unbundled" product.
Ah. I assumed that what had happened was that the set of source files at MIT
was just what was in the 'last release', and the NCP code had been discarded
by then.
I wonder if it's on a backup tape that MIT retained,
> From: Grant Taylor
>> It is TCP/IPv4, so it's got compatible headers
> Are you referring to the 802.3 Ethernet (vs Ethernet II) frame type
No, I meant the IP and TCP headers. Those are end-end; the Ethernet stuff is
just a local wrapping, and can be substituted.
> I was not
> From: Eric Smith
> which would respond to ARP requests for non-local addresses and reply
> with the router's MAC address (on that interface), specifically in
> order to make classful-only hosts work on a CIDR network.
Yeah, Proxy ARP (an early RFC here:
> From: Jonathan
> if someone wants to sticky this (here or in other forums), I think this
> would be a valuable resource for anyone wanting to use ImageDisk on
> non-PC formats.
How about someone doing an ImageDisk page on the Computer History Wiki; we
could include an 'External
> From: Kyle Owen
> A tenth the price of the Twiggy Lisa makes that auction look almost
> affordable! Final price was $5600.
Yeah, whoever bought that got, IMO, a pretty good deal (as I predicted). It's
a fair amount of money, but they got a _ton_ of stuff (probably literally :-).
I
> From: Al Kossow
> vt11 is integrated into the 11/05 backplane on the gt40
Right (although I had forgotten that); I listed the 11/05 separately since I
do have data on how much they've been going for - in an attempt to roughly
value the lot. The GT40, however, no idea. (I recall one was
> From: TeoZ
> mouse (optical mice are better then the old ones with balls). I even
> keep old ball mice around ... and those do wear out)
Huh? I've got old ball mice I've been using for years; they don't wear out.
The wires do get flaky after a long period of use (at which point I
> From: Mattis Lind
> I have now scanned the MP00574 / KK11-A printset I have received.
Thank you very much for doing that! Those prints were one of the main missing
PDP-11 print sets.
> Hope the quality is good enough.
It looks good to me.
Noel
> From: Warner Losh
> I'm curious: does it inter-operate with modern TCP/IP implementations?
This just a guess, but 'sort of'? It _is_ TCP/IPv4, so it's got compatible
headers, but I don't know if other parts have changed enough to make it not
work.
E.g. it probably only supports class
> From: Ali
> why is there potential for the system to go for insane amounts of money?
I'm going to guess that Al had the GT40 in mind. (I wonder if that was named
after the car, BTW?) I don't see anything else there that's _that_ desirable -
the Diablo (aka RK02/RK03) is pretty rare,
So why are reels of DECtape selling for unbelievable prices on eBait? See,
e.g. here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/372186744906
and here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/372186745609
I can't believe there are hordes of TU55/TU56 owners out there who desperately
need media; so what is it? People who
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Definitely an RK11-C
Ah; the dual-wide plug-in connector soldered onto the back kind of threw me a
bit!
> And it would make sense with the diablo and the RK05 in there.
Right, but I wonder if the RK05 is on the same controller as the Diablo, or if
the PDP-8
So this lot:
https://www.ebay.com/itm//192436422371
claims to be an -11/04, but there are no boards in it. However... the first
backplane (of two) is a DD11-P, which is the backplane for the /34 as well as
the /04. And there are /34 CPU boards available on eBait at the moment. Pick
up a
> From: Liam Proven
> I had a major WTF moment at that. The actress had a prior or parallel
> career as an engineer?
Why not? Hedy Lamarr:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr
invented spread spectrum communications! :-)
> From: Dave Mitton
> I could ask John
> From: Paul Anderson
> I wonder what happened to the third rack...
And the TU-56...
I'm going to disagree with Al, though - I don't think it's going to go for
that much, it's 'local pickup only'. That's going to severely limit the
bidder pool.
Noel
> From: David Bridgham
> today we booted v6 Unix successfully for the first time.
As in, the OS image was loaded from the SD card, then started up using only
the SD card for 'disk'. So this is a pretty major milestone. It's been a long
road (I just looked, and we started on this in the
> From: David Bridgham
> Our plan is to produce a Unibus board as well, we just chose the QBUS
> first.
For no particularly strong reasons; I had working QBUS machines, and
prototyping cards, etc, etc.
> (actually, this should work with Q18 QBUS systems as well)
Goodness,
> From: Lars Brinkhoff
> Right, we haven't found sources for everything in Macsyma.
Ow. How much, very roughly, is missing (if you happen to know) - 5%, 50%?
> I'd say we're lucky to have it running at all
Good point!
Noel
> From: Phil Budne
> FWIW, Found these bits
> ...
> Those bits and others can be found
Excellent archaeology! With these, and the ITS sources (for which we have both
the -10 and -11 sides), the register definitions in the early PDP-10 CPU
manual, and the prints, it should be
> From: Rich Alderson
> I'm going to disagree with the history Al posted, because Dick himself
> told me the story.
What was the history according to Dick, if you recall? Would he still be
available, to write it as he saw it down himself?
Noel
> From: Lars Brinkhoff
> notes on his progress are here:
> https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/284
Ah, that sounds pretty good. The ability to re-create source, given the FASL,
will really help.
> In 1982 MIT licensed Macsyma to Symbolics, but also made it available
> to
> From: Fritz Mueller
> My restored RK05 drives are missing their rear air filters (the ones that
> cover the back of the card cage).
The formal DEC name is "prefilter" (since the air that comes in here goes
through the cards, and the air blower, and then through the absolute filter
> From: Marc Howard
> what's the difference between a KK11-A and KK11-B?
KK11-A -> -11/34
KK11-B -> -11/44
Noel
> From: Mark Matlock
>Any device which uses backplane pins BC1, BD1, BEl, BF1 or DC1, 001,
>DEl, OF!
Those last are probably typos for "DD1, DE1, DF1".
> Several other pins are also tied to ground on that connector such as
> BC2, BJ1, and BT1.
Yeah, those are all
> From: Lars Brinkhoff
> It's frankensteined together from a mix of source and FASL files
FASL? So some of the sources are apparently gone?
Noel
> From: Marc Howard
> All the unit has is a thin rail on both sides that is riveted to the
> unit. It looks like chassis slides were there originally. Does anyone
> have either the DEC part # for the slides
I sent these to the list a while back, and never added them to the CHWiki
> From: Mark J. Blair
> I have a single decpack cartridge ... It's marked "decpack 2200 BPI-12"
> and has 12 sector notches in the hub. Does that mean that it was most
> likely used with an RK05 drive in a PDP-11 system?
Yes.
> I hope that I can procure a matching drive for
Can anyone help 'Darkstar' with this:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/Talk:Installing_4.3_BSD%2BNFS_Wisconsin_Unix
Noel
> From: sop0h
> I read in somebodies note about jumpers @W1 and W2 on the M7261F that I
> have. Apparently cutting one of these disables the onboard uart and
> will allow me to put in a serial card.
Yes, W1. And it's not cutting, it's inserting.
> I cant find the
So I bought some of those fiche that that eBay seller had, for publications I
couldn't locate (either physical, or online), but now that I have a complete
set of fische, the duplicates aren't any use. So, if anyone has a use for
them, let me know, FTGH:
They are:
BA11-N Tech Manual
BA11-N
> From: Terry Stewart
>
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-MS-DOS-and-Win98.htm
> Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do
> this.
Hi, can I appeal to you (and everyone else who writes up these kinds of
notes) to put this stuff
> From: Dave Wade
> Or pick up the signals from the wire wrap
I think the OP's approach - disable the on-board console - is probably best:
that port is limited to 2400 baud, and with DL11's being a dime a dozen (OK,
I exaggerate a bit, but only slightly - they're available for about
> From: Mattis Lind
> Many are already available online but some I cannot find.
Which ones are you missing? I'm curious to see if my set has them.
Noel
> From: Bill Degnan
> What is the OS of the disks, what system was this disk used to
> create/save files to the RL02?
Doesn't really matter, does it, as long as the bits can all be read off the
pack into a file?
Once it's in a file, the appropriate OS, running in a simulator (and
> From: Grant Taylor
>> people are more likely to find it, when they're looking for info on a
>> topic, if it's part of something like the CHWiki, than they are on
>> individual Web sites.
> I question the validity of it.
It wasn't just supposition on my part; as I had
> From: Grant Taylor
> I've had plenty of things that I've found and referenced over the years
> that have disappeared from where I knew it was.
Ah, bit rot - the scourge of the Web. Thank G-d for the Internet Archive!
Although at least one major list archive had been marked to
> From: Terry Stewart
> If I had to go to that extent of writing it as a robust, referenced,
> refereed, definitive technical article, I probably wouldn't bother.
Sure. Neither would I. But how is this relevant to the CHWiki question?
Noel
Is the code for the KDF11-B ROMs available in machine-readable source
anywhere? I looked with Google, but couldn't find anything.
Eventually I recalled having seen it in the fiche, which was better than
nothing (disassembling something that size to see how it worked was, ah,
unappealing, shall we
> From: Grant Taylor cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net
> Sorry if this comes across wrong. ... I'm replying in an attempt to
> provide a counter point for a discussion of reality. So please don't
> take this as an attack on you, or your laudable appeal.
No problem!
>
> From: Aaron Jackson
> I am wondering if anyone would be willing to sell me an RL02K cartridge
> for a sensible price?
There are a bunch listed on eBait for not wholly unrealistic prices; I
wouldn't buy a bunch there, but it you only need one, for testing... Not sure
if any of the
> From: Grant Taylor
> I'm on a list where it seems as if a frequent contributer uses an MUA
> that does not send In-Reply-To or References headers at all. It doesn't
> even send a User-Agent header. *sigh*
That's me, I expect.
I used to use a TOPS-20 email reader called MM, and
> From: Al Kossow
>> On 2/18/18 12:20 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
>> ... his 709 went to the CHM. Anything else of the big stuff?
> the 7094 and 650
A 7094? Neat! Very historic machine.
I wonder if it would be possible to fabricate the extras needed to run CTSS
on
> From: geneb
> they've got a DPS-8 maintenance/operator/? panel ... It's fully
> operational and is connected via some magic hardware to a Raspberry Pi
> running a Multics emulator.
Technically it's an H6180; the DPS-8 is a later generation of hardware in the
same family. More
> From: Jim Stephens
> I had a meeting with Ken Omohundro on 12/7 and will be having dinner
> with him again soon. I'll ask him about it. I know he doesn't have any
> records left, but I could take him your notes and see what he recalls.
Thanks very much for that offer; we do
> From: Mark J. Blair
> I wonder if it might also be useful in any of the QBUS MicroVAXen?
Hardwarewise, it should be fine. Softwarewise... well...
The issue is that we're currently only planning to emulate the RK11 and RP11,
because we're not up for the hassle involved in emulating
> From: John Welch
>>> SAV -- SOFTWARE CONFIGURED FOR ENABLE HARDWARE WHICH DOES NOT RESPOND.
> I can boot RSX from a different device (or RT-11, or unix maybe) and
> then mount this RL02 pack and go exploring through its contents. Is
> there a possibility that I may find
> From: Bill Gunshannon
> At best, it's a third part QBUS box.
I assume that was 'third party'?
No, that's a real DEC front panel. They could have put that on an off-brand
chassis, but I would _guess_ not.
(The outer housing I can see looks like the slide-in ones DEC used to hold
the
> From: John Welch
> SAV -- SOFTWARE CONFIGURED FOR ENABLE HARDWARE WHICH DOES NOT RESPOND.
> HALTED.
> Does anyone have any hints on how I can guess what I need to add?
Well, Able made a thing called an 'Able ENABLE' which allowed use of more
than 256KB of physical memory on any
> From: Michael Zahorik
> Thanks for responding.
Sure. Not sure how much use it was, but...
> I do like your wood working.
Thanks..
> may give it a try. Should not be very difficult.
No, as long as you have either a radial arm saw (best), or a table saw
(preferably with a
> From: David Bridgham
> I could ask for a lot more really but that's pretty good.
IMO we're 'over the hump' on the prototype phase of the project. The complete
QBUS interface (including DMA and interrupts) are done, and very thoroughly
tested, and now we have the SD interface up and
> From: Paul Koning
> The only asynchronous computer I can think of is the Dutch ARRA 1
Isn't the KA10 basically asynchronous? (I know, it has a clock, but I'm
not sure how much it is used for.)
The thing is I recall reading (where, I don't now remember) that the CPU is
organized with
> From: Peter Corlett
> since we have computers with multiple gigabytes of RAM, it makes little
> sense to restrain one's use of them to a fraction of the capabilities,
> except as an intellectual exercise.
For data, sure. (It's amazing how big even images can become, as the
> From: Toby Thain
> If the documentation is good enough, people in the community will be
> able to provide the software.
You mean, host drivers?
Yeah, that documentation will be pretty trivial: 'there's this extra
register, just like the one in the RLV12; the top 6 bits of the DMA
> From: Ethan Dicks
> The rod is also smaller by quite a bit, but I don't have one in front
> of me to measure.
The two feet are quite different. The smaller one on the extender is 5/16"-18
(i.e. UNC Coarse thread); the larger one under the cabinet is 1/2"-13.
Replacements can
> From: Kurt Hamm
> If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it.
You probably already know this, but... My sense is that a collector of
classic computers has to be able to diagnose and repair at the component
level - get in there with an oscilloscope and a set of prints (creating
> From: Ethan Dicks
> I just saw that this specific part had a min order.
They have a min $10 order on _every_ part, and also a min of $25 on the total
order.
Noel
> As to what _else_ it is doing, and why it has the cable to the main
> card... I think that it must intercept MSYN from the processor and only
> let it pass if there's no hit in the cache.
> (To explain why it would need to do that... normally with the MS11,
> there's a static
> From: Fritz Mueller
> If these are what you are talking about, I ordered up a bunch a couple
> years ago when I rebuilt the power harness for my 11/45, and can attest
> they are the right thing:
Yeah, those are the ones.
Note that ConnectorPeople has a relatively large minimum
> From: Mattis Lind
> I will take a picture of the boards in more detail so we can figure out
> what they are doing later on.
Thanks, that would be really useful.
> My understanding is that slot 1AB and slot 26 AB is tied to each
> other. So if there would be no expansion
So, it turns out the power connectors (plastic female shell with metal male
pins, etc) widely used in UNIBUS PDP-11's (e.g. to provide power to
backplanes, etc) are still available, if anyone else wants any. (No doubt some
of you already knew this; this is for those, like me, who didn't! :-)
The
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