Re: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay

2019-10-12 Thread dwight via cctalk
Wow, Look at all the drives. It looks like it even has a Diablo hard drive.
I don't know what the drives that are below the 5.25 drives are??
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom via 
cctalk 
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 9:28 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
Subject: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay

There's a cheap General Automation SPC 16/45 on eBay that someone needs
to get. It's for pickup only
in Royal Oak, MI otherwise I would go for it. Includes a disk drive.
Looks like it needs to be gone in a week.
See:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Automation-1972-SPH-45-16-Minicomputer-Console/323932770200?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Bob

--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org



Re: Mystery chip SCM44506L

2019-10-10 Thread dwight via cctalk
That would make sense if these were OTP or fused parts.
Wouter,  can you check the pins with an ohm meter, to what we think are power 
and ground. Outputs usually look different than inputs.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Brent Hilpert via 
cctalk 
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 10:22 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Mystery chip SCM44506L

On 2019-Oct-10, at 5:33 AM, Wouter de Waal via cctech wrote:
>> Very likely a semi custom or custom memory device, due to the prefix.
>
> Armed with that and the fact that pin 1 connects to the leadframe I figured 
> maybe it's something like the 6830 Mikbug prom -- 0V on 1, 5V on 12, data on 
> the left, address on the right. Tried reading it like that (for all 16 
> combinations of chip selects) but 0xFF throughout.
>
> So I popped the lid, stuck it under a microscope. The chip says "MCM6816" 
> which is in fact a 1k ROM.
>
> Anyone have more information on the 6816 ROM?


Funny, the usual goto reference for early 6800-series chips is the 6800 Micro 
System Design manual:

http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/6800/MC6800_Microcomputer_System_Design_Data_1976.pdf
but it's not in there.

There are a couple of other 1K ROMs however (6830,68308).
Might compare pinout with those.



Re: Mystery chip SCM44506L

2019-10-10 Thread dwight via cctalk
Maybe they are OTP?
Dwight


From: cctech  on behalf of Wouter de Waal via 
cctech 
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 5:33 AM
To: cct...@classiccmp.org 
Subject: Re: Mystery chip SCM44506L


>
>Very likely a semi custom or custom memory device, due to the prefix.

Armed with that and the fact that pin 1 connects to the leadframe I
figured maybe it's something like the 6830 Mikbug prom -- 0V on 1, 5V
on 12, data on the left, address on the right. Tried reading it like
that (for all 16 combinations of chip selects) but 0xFF throughout.

So I popped the lid, stuck it under a microscope. The chip says
"MCM6816" which is in fact a 1k ROM.

Anyone have more information on the 6816 ROM?

Thanks

W



Re: Tek 500 pulser modules

2019-10-01 Thread dwight via cctalk
I thought I'd mention, do use caution when fixing pulse generators. The output 
transistors are often mounted an a beryllium ceramic. Even the dust from these 
is quite toxic. These usually have warning stickers but stickers can get lots.
Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of dwight via cctalk 

Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 9:33 AM
To: Jon Elson ; General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Tek 500 pulser modules

Hi
 I thought I'd mention that when troubleshooting a computer, if you can't 
takeover the execution of the processor, such as a diagnostic ROM, a pulse 
generator can be a useful tool. For most all TTL, except some bus drivers, one 
can use a pulse generator to override a 1 value to inject a signal in a circuit 
path. Most don't realize that these have many uses.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Jon Elson via cctalk 

Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 8:10 AM
To: Al Kossow ; gene...@ezwind.net ; 
Discussion@ 
Subject: Re: Tek 500 pulser modules

On 10/01/2019 08:02 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> http://www.pulseinstruments.com/plugins/PI-451A_Users_Manual.pdf
>
>
> 100ns to 100us with MOS outputs
>
Wow, good find!  Thanks,

Jon


Re: Tek 500 pulser modules

2019-10-01 Thread dwight via cctalk
Hi
 I thought I'd mention that when troubleshooting a computer, if you can't 
takeover the execution of the processor, such as a diagnostic ROM, a pulse 
generator can be a useful tool. For most all TTL, except some bus drivers, one 
can use a pulse generator to override a 1 value to inject a signal in a circuit 
path. Most don't realize that these have many uses.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Jon Elson via cctalk 

Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 8:10 AM
To: Al Kossow ; gene...@ezwind.net ; 
Discussion@ 
Subject: Re: Tek 500 pulser modules

On 10/01/2019 08:02 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> http://www.pulseinstruments.com/plugins/PI-451A_Users_Manual.pdf
>
>
> 100ns to 100us with MOS outputs
>
Wow, good find!  Thanks,

Jon


Re: IBM 5110 transformer?

2019-09-30 Thread dwight via cctalk
Is it a switcher or an AC?
A custom transformer is going to be quite expensive. About the only way is to 
cannibalize another machine.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Mattis Lind via 
cctalk 
Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2019 11:44 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: IBM 5110 transformer?

A friend of mine is trying to repair a IBM 5110. He is convinced that the
transformer is bad.

Anyone knows the spec of the transformer?

Someone that has a spare?

Looking into the tech documentation tell me that the machine requires +/-
5V and +/- 12 V and also +8.5V

A very rough guesstimate based on the number of wires from the PSU to the
backplane would give 20A 5V, 4A +12V, 4A +8.5V, 1A -5V and 1A -12V.

Anyone with a better guess?

/Mattis


Re: analog computer - texas

2019-09-19 Thread dwight via cctalk
Wow
Dwight


From: cctech  on behalf of Dave Wade via cctech 

Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:25 AM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' 
Subject: analog computer - texas

Seen on the vintage forums - I hope I am not spoiling some ones bid



https://swicoauctions.com/online/26/item/43886



Dave Wade

G4UGM & EA7KAE





Re: [Simh] Fwd: VAX + Spectre

2019-09-17 Thread dwight via cctalk
The main difference between Meltdown and the various Spectre problems was that 
Meltdown didn't require you to find code that runs in protected space to cause 
the sideband effects. Spectre required knowing about specific code running in 
protected mode to do the dirty work for you. You just pass some tool, with 
privileged execution, the location you want to probe and then watch the 
sideband effect.
This latest one is bad for a touch typer or those that always enter the 
password in the same way. It looks for the timing of when you hit keys and then 
makes guesses on what keys would typically take that length of time to type. 
Most any processor running multiple users might be susceptible to this one. It 
does depend on the typical touch typer trained person or at least one of the 
typical two finger typers. It works too good to let go by as not an issue.  
Even dithering the processor's timer enough to avoid the other problems isn't 
enough to hid this one. People type to slow compared to the processors cycle 
time.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Clem Cole via cctalk 

Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 11:01 AM
To: Paul Koning 
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; 
SIMH 
Subject: Re: [Simh] Fwd: VAX + Spectre

I can simplify the question a bit.  I have to be careful as I work for
Intel and I've been involved with a small bit of it on our end and some of
the lawyers are a bit touchy about the whole situation.   So I need to add
- these opinions are my own not necessarily my employers.

Basically, if you have a CPU and microcode design that is post the IBM AGS
that uses any type of branch prediction or speculative execution, the
processor is now suspect.  But you need to do the analysis originally
proposed in the German paper. It helps to have the google teams work next
to you when you do that analysis because you now have a recipe for how to
apply the ideas, but that is not the only way to apply them.  Before then,
nobody had thought about the problem.

While you point out the attack is carried out in the Google paper using the
MMU, the attack is against the internal instruction predictor.  Since the
original Google paper, a number of other ways of attacks against the
microcode have been reduced to practice by other teams.

In the case of the Vax ISA, the original 780 and 750, I do not believe any
attempt at prediction was in the microcode, but that would take someone
like Bob to verify. In all cases, I was never part of the Vax CPU
development, so I'm not going to be able to answer/I really don't know.

But I observe that by the time of the 9000 and the 8000 series Vaxen there
had been enough noise in the community, particularly by Patterson et al, in
the whole RISC vs. CISC front had certainly caught the attention in the CPU
designer's eyes.   The techniques that were being considered were
completely and fully discussed in the open literature.  I certainly had
read Cocke's and Russ's papers by then in grad school.  I have to believe
the same was true of the folks in DEC's HW team.  Certainly, by Alpha time
when I was around, those ideas were well-baked at DEC and I would be quite
surprised if a similar attack could not be performed against EV5 and EV6.

Bottom line, you need to really look at the microcode and very it.
Clem


ᐧ

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 1:40 PM Paul Koning  wrote:

> Yes, I understand that a number of ISAs are vulnerable.  The original
> paper by Kocher clearly mentions both x86 and ARM.
>
> The reason I forwwarded the question is that I'm not aware enough of all
> the VAX variants to answer whether there are any VAXen with speculative
> execution.  If no, then we're done, the answer is easy.  (That was the case
> when the question was asked for PDP11s.)  But if yes, then it becomes
> necessary to read the paper carefully to see if any of the prerequisites
> are implemented in some VAX, and if yes, what the fix might look like.
>
> I'm reasonably comfortable assuming that the somewhat-related "Meltdown"
> vulnerability doesn't show up in VAX, because that issue requires a
> designer who'd implement page access checking in a way I would not expect a
> DEC engineer to do.
>
> paul
>
> > On Sep 17, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Clem Cole  wrote:
> >
> > Paul - be careful.  All CPU's post the IBM AGS that used branch
> prediction are suspect.   Russ Robelen (who was the 360/50 lead, worked on
> 360/90 and lead AGS) has the speculative executing patent.   I tweaked him
> when it all came out and said - look at what you did.
> >
> > What Russ and team are great ideas and we all have used them since they
> first published about it.   And the fact is that it took 40 years before
> someone even proposed that it was an issue and could become security
> exploit (by some folks in German at a security conference) and it Google 18
> months to reduce it to practice.
> > ᐧ
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:55 AM Paul Koning 
> wrote:
> > "Spectre" is 

Re: So what the heck did I just pick up?

2019-08-31 Thread dwight via cctalk
How about some pictures of what was inside. A picture that is atleast good 
enough to see what is there.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Brent Hilpert via 
cctalk 
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 1:25 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: So what the heck did I just pick up?

On 2019-Aug-30, at 7:24 PM, John Ames via cctalk wrote:
> Ran into this at the electronics-surplus store just down the way from
> my workplace and grabbed it on the cheap. I don't actually know what
> it *is,* but the labels on the switches make it look a *hell* of a lot
> like a 16-bit general-purpose computer of some kind. Despite the
> claims of being "microprocessor-controlled," I looked at every board
> inside the thing and couldn't spot anything that looked like a 16-bit
> or even 8-bit CPU. Genuinely curious what this is, but I can't find
> much on it online - the name pops up in a few archived documents, but
> Bitsavers doesn't have anything for the company. Though the design is
> attributed to Stanley Kubota and Edward Corby - looks like Mr. Kubota
> still has an online presence at https://www.exsellsales.com/about-us/
> so I'll have to drop them a line...
>
> Anybody heard of or encountered one of these before?
>
> http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-front.jpg
> http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-back.jpg


"couldn't spot anything that ... looked like a CPU"

By what criteria? Were you just looking for 'large' chips?
Might you have overlooked an 8008 or 4004? - they were in 'small' 18 & 16 pin 
DIPs.
Given the mid-70's appearance (confirmed by Chuck's 1976 ref) those would have 
been possibilities for the task.

If there's no single-chip microproc in there, there might be a minimal CPU 
built out of multiple chips.
"Microprocessor" in that era was sometimes used in a wider sense than just 
single-chip-processor.
ROMs or EPROMs for firmware could be another hint as to architecture.




Re: So what the heck did I just pick up?

2019-08-31 Thread dwight via cctalk
One wonders what the micro instructions were? It looks like a lot of circuit 
tracing ahead.
Dwight


From: cctech  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctech 
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 7:57 PM
To: John Ames via cctech 
Subject: Re: So what the heck did I just pick up?

On 8/30/19 7:24 PM, John Ames via cctech wrote:
> Ran into this at the electronics-surplus store just down the way from
> my workplace and grabbed it on the cheap. I don't actually know what
> it *is,* but the labels on the switches make it look a *hell* of a lot
> like a 16-bit general-purpose computer of some kind. Despite the
> claims of being "microprocessor-controlled," I looked at every board
> inside the thing and couldn't spot anything that looked like a 16-bit
> or even 8-bit CPU. Genuinely curious what this is, but I can't find
> much on it online - the name pops up in a few archived documents, but
> Bitsavers doesn't have anything for the company. Though the design is
> attributed to Stanley Kubota and Edward Corby - looks like Mr. Kubota
> still has an online presence at https://www.exsellsales.com/about-us/
> so I'll have to drop them a line...
>
> Anybody heard of or encountered one of these before?
>
> http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-front.jpg
> http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-back.jpg

Not surprisingly, the answer's on Bitsavers:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/microcomputerAssociates/Microcomputer_Digest_v02n08_Feb76.pdf

PDF page 7.

--Chuck



Re: Decaying foam on PCBs

2019-08-28 Thread dwight via cctalk
I'm with Chuck on this one, I've use 91% on the foam gunk and it has worked. A 
similar product in the US is called GooGone. It can remove stenciled  part 
labels and attacks some plastic.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Jules Richardson via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 4:44 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
Subject: Re: Decaying foam on PCBs

On 8/27/19 10:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> I'd probably just use 91% isopropanol.  No water to speak of, doesn't
> bother plastics--and cheap.

I do normally use it on boards for general cleaning - I was just assuming
that this nasty sticky foam would be too much for it. I'll give it a go,
though...

J.



Re: TRS-80 Fireworks

2019-08-28 Thread dwight via cctalk
It was at the Maker Faire, 1 year ago, we had these caps blow on 2 Apple II's. 
One ran for less than an hour before going and the other ran for a day and the 
next day it also blew ( it was my Apple II ). It now lives without the 
capacitor.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Ethan Dicks via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 5:34 AM
To: Marvin Johnston ; General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: TRS-80 Fireworks

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:16 AM Marvin Johnston via cctalk
 wrote:
> I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers,
> and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke?

I've had identical experiences with Rifa caps as others here.  One
thing about them, you don't need to be powered on.  The caps are
usually on the hot side of the power switch.  I've had a MicroPDP-11
and a Commodore D9060 sizzle when plugged in but powered off.

> Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing
> the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen
> one of the X type line filter caps blow.

Rifa caps are notorious for reasons already described.

Found in a lot of 1980s gear, TRS-80, Commodore, DEC... Replace on sight.

-ethan


Re: bit-slice and microcode discussion list

2019-08-23 Thread dwight via cctalk
The concepts of bitslice coding and optimizing of it have always interested me. 
I'm not sure about the correlation to "CISC to VLIW RISC".
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk 

Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 2:37 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
Subject: Re: bit-slice and microcode discussion list



> On a possible related note, I am looking for information on converting
> CISC instructions to VLIW RISC.

I'm impressed, cctlk went completely off the rails on the first reply to the
list announcement, and has stayed there.

At least the list itself is staying on topic.



Re: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question

2019-08-16 Thread dwight via cctalk
One of the problems with archiving is what to do with items that are not 
popular. Some things might be more valued ten or twenty years in the future but 
not now. Is the fact that the item has relatively low interest now a possible 
reason to not archive it in a searchable form for future reference?
What about things that are scattered on other personal sites currently that may 
be gone next week? So much information is already lost.
Who determines what should be saved? What say you come across a rare document 
but the copy was poorly done at a lower than desired resolution. Do you refuse 
to post it because it doesn't meet your standards or do you post it with a note 
that it is the best to date? Judging such things can be arbitrary and be the 
reason for lost information.
At least when you publish a book, there is a chance that some copy may be 
saved. Now with information sitting on someones disk drives, it could be 
deletes with one mistake.
This is a really complicated issue. I'm getting older and know I'm on the tail 
end of my life. Still, I have no way to begin to pass on what I have. I doubt 
my heirs would care much unless it had significant monetary value.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Seth J. Morabito via 
cctalk 
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 8:31 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question


Paul Koning via cctalk writes:

> Anything worth having around deserves backup.  Which makes me wonder
> -- how is Wikipedia backed up?  I guess it has a fork, which isn't
> quite the same thing.  I know Bitsavers is replicated in a number of
> places.  And one argument in favor of GIT is that every workspace is a
> full backup of the original, history and all.
>
> One should worry for smaller scale efforts, though.

This is a problem I think about a lot.

In the early 2000s I worked on the LOCKSS program at Stanford
University. LOCKSS stands for "Lots Of Copies Keep Stuff Safe", and is a
distributed network of servers that replicate backup copies of
electronic academic journals. It stemmed from a research project that
looked at how to design an attack resistent peer-to-peer digital
archival network.  Each node in the network keeps a copy of the original
journal content, does a cryptographic hash of each resource (HTML page,
image, PDF, etc.), and participates in a steady stream of polls with all
the other nodes where they vote on the hashes. If a minority of nodes
loses a poll, their content is assumed to be damaged, missing, or bad,
and they replicate the content from the winners of the poll.

It's designed as a "Dark" archive, meaning the data is there, but nobody
tries to access it unless the original web content disappears. Then, the
servers act as transparent web proxies, so when you hit the original URL
or URI, they serve up the content that's now missing from the real
public Internet.

It's a neat idea. It's also open source, and unencumbered with
patents. I've always thought a similar model could be used to archive
and replicate just about anything, but it's just one of those things
that nobody's ever gotten around to doing.

>paul

-Seth

--
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA, USA
  w...@loomcom.com


Re: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board

2019-08-16 Thread dwight via cctalk
I was wondering, does anyone check the thickness of the gold plating anymore. 
Years ago, working at another large company, we saw quite a bit of cheating on 
this.
Trust but verity.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Dennis Boone via 
cctalk 
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 8:46 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
Subject: Re: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board

> I've gotten the distinct impression that US board houses really are
 > only interested in government/military/aerospace work. I've often
 > wondered what it would take to set up a modern "no human interaction"
 > line and if one could be even a little competitive with the Chinese
 > on it.

Based on a couple of youtube videos I've seen in the last year (sorry,
don't have links), I'm not sure it's entirely fair to describe the
Chinese board house process as "no human interaction".  I mean, sure,
web form submission, but they seem to have a lot of "engineers" checking
designs, and factory workers, and...

De


Re: Raspberry Pi write cycles

2019-08-14 Thread dwight via cctalk
Some of the newer larger SD cards use a different write voltage than 3.3V. 
There is a ways of asking the card what voltage it likes during the init.
Using the full 3.3V on these parts can damage them.
They are all required to init with 3.3V but the voltage for writing may be 
different.
I've only played with the ones smaller than 2GB. But any time I get a new one, 
I check the voltage.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Alexander Schreiber 
via cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 2:36 PM
To: Adam Thornton ; General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi write cycles

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 02:43:38PM -0700, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote:
> I did have a case where the Pi I was using as secondary DNS/DHCP and as the
> secondary backup server (using USB spinning disk) destroyed its SD card.
>
> But then it turned out not to be the load at all.  No matter what I ran on
> that Pi, it would corrupt its SD cards in a matter of weeks (the symptom
> was that the fourth bit of some bytes would just stick on).  I assume it
> was just something broken in the Pi itself.

The two usual suspects:
 - standard consumer sd cards don't do so well outside of their design
   use case (mostly cameras and media players) and I suspect a journaling FS
   (which is a perfectly reasonable default, usually ext4 these days,
for Linux) is probably especially bad - so I recommend looking for
   industrial grade SD cards, they cost a little more, are usually only
   available in smaller sizes (I've seen 8, 16, 32 GB) but they tend to
   last a lot longer
 - sub-par power supply, having the power brown out a little is _bad_
   for basically any kind of reliable operation - make sure your PSU
   can actually reliably deliver enough juice (ISTR the recommendation being
   3+ amps), I suppose the "official" ones from the Pi foundation should
   be up to the job

> (Traffic encryption via simh is incredibly painful.  You have to turn login
> delay way up to run NetBSD on VAX on a Pi if you want to be able to ssh
> into it; the machine itself runs fine-ish, but the zillions of cycles to
> encrypt the traffic swamps it in no time.)

If you want to stick with the Raspberry Pi platform, what kind of Pi are
you currently using? If it is a Pi 3, maybe try a Pi 4, that is noticeably
beefier. Note: with the Pi 4, you have to use the official power supply
and cable as they screwed up the USB-C side (by _not_ exactly copying the
schematic in the specs, saving one resistor on the BOM with the result that
high end cables will mis-recognize the Pi as an 'audio accessory' and not
power it).

> And, you know, if you manage to cause my SD cards in those machines to
> fail, well, gosh, guess I'm out $10 or so for a new one.  I'm not bothering
> to back up any of the stuff inside 'em,

I assume you've got a master image that you just write to a new SD card,
replace card, power cycle Pi, done?

Kind regards,
   Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."  -- Thomas A. Edison


Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them.

2019-07-25 Thread dwight via cctalk
Hi Sam
 On one of the projects I worked on, we had a lockup problem ( CMOS issue ). It 
would blow either the VCC or GND lead. We had a wire bonder in the lab. I'd 
remove the cap from ceramic chips and bond on a new wire. It would work fine 
until we sequence the power wrong and it would blow wire again. The CMOS 
technology guy stated they shouldn't do this but it still happened ( simulation 
vrs real world ).
I suspect those parts that have an open lead are bonding wire failures and not 
silicon failures. If you were setup to install bonding wires, it is technically 
possible to repair such failures. In a plastic part, that might be more 
difficult than a ceramic package.
Not all failures are bonding wire failures.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Jeffrey S. Worley via 
cctalk 
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 12:08 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
Subject: RE: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them.

Does this mean that, like me scratching a bit at the package to expose
enough nub of broken-off pin to get a blob of solder on to hold a new
leg made of wire can theoretically be extended to shaving off the top
of the package to expose the IC and then tack soldering the severed
wire back onto it?

This would probably require some serious equipment I don't have, but
sounds possible in extremity.

RSVP

YHOSvt.

** TNM **
Dwight said:

"Message: 6
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 05:52:31 +
From: dwight 
To: Pete Rittwage , "General Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts" 
Subject: Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them.
Message-ID:
<
byapr01mb5608f4c8a3860c2a7d2bc172a3...@byapr01mb5608.prod.exchangelabs.com
>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

"Failure of the POKEY chip were likely bonding wire failures. Voltage
stress failures are not likely to self repair.
I would agree, the fix is likely temporary.
Many early chips used gold wire for bonding but later chips used
aluminum. Which is better is always a question. The pads on the die
were usually aluminum, while the package was often gold. These are
acoustically bonded.
One wonders if one put a capacitor on the lead with a non-lethal
voltage and used such a heating method, it might be able to arc weld
the wire back on. Using the method of heating might enhance the success
as well.
Dwight"



Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them.

2019-07-24 Thread dwight via cctalk
Failure of the POKEY chip were likely bonding wire failures. Voltage stress 
failures are not likely to self repair.
I would agree, the fix is likely temporary.
Many early chips used gold wire for bonding but later chips used aluminum. 
Which is better is always a question. The pads on the die were usually 
aluminum, while the package was often gold. These are acoustically bonded.
One wonders if one put a capacitor on the lead with a non-lethal voltage and 
used such a heating method, it might be able to arc weld the wire back on. 
Using the method of heating might enhance the success as well.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Pete Rittwage via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 6:24 PM
To: Jeffrey S. Worley ; General Discussion: On-Topic 
and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them.

On 2019-07-24 13:31, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote:
> Yesterday evening, in the process of refurbishing five very badly
> treated Atari 800 computers I had a hunch and subjected a failed Pokey
> chip (Atari Part CO12294 Wikki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY
> ) to high heat by way of the barrel of my soldering iron until
> saliva evaporated from it in about 1 second.
>
> The chip, which did not work before in any of the machines now works
> perfectly.
>
> Pokey (see wikki link) is common to all Atari 8-bit computers and
> common in many Atari coinop video game systems.  These chips are
> becoming scarce, so much so there is a sort of replacement being
> manufactured
> https://hotrodarcade.com/products/pokeyone-atari-pokey-chip-replacement-for-atari-arcade-games
> .
>
> The replacement Pokey only emulates the audio portion of the original
> chip, leaving the PotKEY part unimplemented.  Pokey gets its name from
> Potentiometer Keyboard.  It also handles the Atari SIO peripheral
> signals, so without those an Atari computer cannot use standard
> peripherals like serial disk drives, and other common interfaces.
> Thus, for Atari computers a true Pokey is a must.
>
> I stumbled upon a fix for this one and wonder if I reinvented the wheel
> or if this information may be of use to the group in treating other
> sorts of chips.
>
> Reflowing is a treatment for a lot of hardware these days and generally
> regarded as a hack which won't last.  As modern hardware, CPU's and
> video chips in particular run very hot, I can see how this might be,
> but Pokey and most of the stuff we work with don't have this
> environmental restriction.  Most of our gear runs at 40 degrees
> centigrade or lower.  So I'm guessing the problem with my disused chip
> was oxidation within the package and that cooking the chip a bit
> cleaned things up?  Any advise or observations would be appreciated.
>
> I tried this on another chip the same evening, an Antic.  The Antic DID
> work for a second or two, whereas it had before given no signs of life,
> but then returned to its failed state.
>
> Best,
>
> Jeff
> (Technoid Mutant)

I tried this a year or two back with about 30 x SID, VIC, and PLA chips
out of C64's. I heated them in the oven at about 250 for 15 minutes.
None of them showed any more signs of life than before I tried it,
unfortunately.

--
-Pete Rittwage


Re: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040

2019-07-14 Thread dwight via cctalk
I'm curious. I'm not a HP fan but I do have a 21MX in my collection. I've run 
it enough to see that the front panel is working with some RAM. My question is, 
why would anyone use a MUX card ( in other words what are they used for )? The 
next question is even for someone that had a use for some, why would they want 
to buy 87 of them?
As for gold value, the offered value is closer than many I see on ebay. I don't 
know how much gold there is, counting chip packages and such but less than $7 
per board seems closer than some of the offers I've seen, on ebay.
I can understand from a business point of view, the desire to get some value 
from them but at 87 boards, once the value of scrap is determined, that would 
more likely be where they would sell to. Expecting collectors to take on 87 
units to get one or two makes little sense.  I tend to agree, it seems to be a 
disingenuous offer, at least for HP1000 enthusiast. As scrape value not so 
disingenuous.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of GerardCJAT via cctalk 

Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2019 1:49 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040

The right question is : Does theses worth $ 600 as gold scrap ??

Certainly NOT, so . This is "If you want that scrap, you pay a
premium ".

A premium for what   ( or for who ) ??



Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West

2019-07-08 Thread dwight via cctalk
Yes Evan, you mentioned that. Eventually there will be people settling estates. 
The first ones sold will do well but eventually, even those that want bragging 
rights will have little  interest in such items. Apple is already at a point 
that they no longer have a hold on the market. They may be able to get a couple 
more geeky gotta have items, like the watch, but their days are already 
numbered.
 Their computers are virtually unrepairable, if something goes wrong( talk to 
anyone that has one but maybe just because of their own policies, not that the 
hardware is any worse or better than anyone else's ).
I expect that Apple-1s will hold their value for at least the rest of my life 
time, if not go up more. So, what should I care.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Evan Koblentz via 
cctalk 
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 1:10 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West


> The only people growing up today that would pay anything like that amount, 
> would only pay that much because they expected to make a profit. It is just 
> an investment.

Don't underestimate the force of "bragging rights" to people who can
afford such things. Many of them buy an Apple 1 because they can, not
because it's an investment.

Anyway: we're having at least 10 of 'em at VCF West, did I mention that? :)



Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West

2019-07-08 Thread dwight via cctalk
The value of Apple 1s are clearly a combination of many things. They're about a 
factor of 500x because they were Apples first product. There is no question 
about that. Other factors include limited run. The fact that may were turned in 
for credit to get an Apple II made them even rarer.
Value is what the buyer will pay.
At $600+ they were not attractive to me at the time because at that time, I 
could get a working, used, S-100 for $400.
Even when the Apple II came out, its limited expansion were not of interest to 
me.
Apple's hardware design was poor ( the disk system is an example ). Another was 
blowing out printer interfaces because you tuned them on in the wrong order. 
Even the selection of the 6502 was based on how cheap one could make a computer 
for the masses ( not saying that the 6502 wasn't a good design, only that the 
selection was based on cost, not quality received ).
Rare is not equal to valuable. Rare and desired combine to make value. If I 
didn't expect to make a profit I'd not personally buy an apple 1 for more than 
$200. I don't have the funds to buy one at the current rate.  Like many stocks, 
I personally think it is over valued. I think that some day the value will 
drop. I couldn't guess as to how much. The only people growing up today that 
would pay anything like that amount, would only pay that much because they 
expected to make a profit. It is just an investment. As a museum item, it is 
interesting.
I do wish I'd bought one when I started. I'd not have it today, though. When 
the value went over a few tens of thousands, I'm sure I'd have sold it.
All stated, buy me, are just opinions. Done take offense as none was intended.
Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of corey cohen via 
cctalk 
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 8:10 AM
To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West

The high price isn’t a Steve Jobs distortion field.  The Apple-1 was 
collectible in the 1980’s before Jobs became the one we all remember.  The 
Apple-1 was really the 1st collectible personal computer and it was produced in 
very limited numbers for a very short time and was tied the grandparent to the 
Apple II and all other Apple products.

As for the replicas being more reliable, only if they are built using modern 
sockets with modern caps and TTL chips where possible.   The original boards 
still differ a lot from the replicas because the techniques used to make the 
PCB boards are no longer used or legal due to environmental laws and the dying 
art of how they made PCBs in the 70’s.

As for why a replica can cost so much, look at the prices for some of the items 
on the Apple-1 like the ceramic 6502, the shift registers or RAM.  They aren’t 
expensive because they are on an Apple-1, but there are people who collect 
those vintage chips also.

Cheers,
Corey

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 8, 2019, at 11:02 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
>
> On 7/8/19 7:43 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote:
>>> Actually the cheapest Apple-1 reproduction is just over 4 figures.  A
>>> reproduction with date correct components cost as much as 5 figures.
>>> A work-alike like a replica-1 is cheap, maybe $150
>>
>> No idea why people would go 5 figures on a replica that is still a replica?
>>
>> The only reason for the high price on the original is Steve Jobs
>> (reality distortion field.)
>
> Practically speaking, what's the difference between a close working
> replica and the original?  Are the bits somehow imbued with some
> additional spiritual property?
>
> The replica may actually be more reliable.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>


Re: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR

2019-07-01 Thread dwight via cctalk
Not every thing makes sense to go metric. Clearly bold sizes are better off in 
fractional sizes. Also for wrenches. I have to have 13, 14 and 15 mm wrenches. 
A 9/16 would have covered the entire range. I have a spot on my car that I need 
a 23mm offset box wrench. What a pain.
Dwight

From: cctalk  on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 

Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 2:10 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 
5100 using OCR

Now that the dollar coin is a different color than the quarter, they don't
end up mixed.  But, the replacement of the Washington quarter, that even
included when they were silver, with the commemorative quarters means they
are now all different designs, and the Susan B. Anthony dollar coins no
longer have more of a difference of appearance from quarters than a
Canadian quarter.


>> A "Dime" is one tenth of a dollar.  Or ten cents.  Or $10 worth of drugs.
>> The coin is 17.91mm diameter, and the smallest coin in circulation.
>> A "Nickel" is five cents.  or $5 worth of drugs.
>> The coin is 21.21mm, and is between a penny and a quarter in size.
> I'm broadly aware but I can never remember which is 5¢ and which is 10¢.

Think of the "dime" as a "deci"

"nickel and dime" is used to mean small and irrelevant.
"nickel" and "dime" are also slang for $5 and $10 respectively, except in
casinos, because while the casinos still had coin slot machines they had
nickel ones, and did NOT confuse those with $5 chips.  But, without the
little paper-cup bucket of coins, what's the appeal of scanning a card,
and then, if the machine malfunctioned and you won, it prints out a piece
of paper to take to the cashier cage?

> Yeah, but we reformed and decimalised it all about 50y ago, and now,
> as an olde pharte, all the old units and multiples are arcane and
> weird even to me. I have only the dimmest memories of seeing shillings
> and things like that. I barely understand feet and inches and don't
> really grasp pounds, ounces and so on at all. I have never used
> Fahrenheit.

Oh, but we are proud of our unremembered heritage, and fiercely resist
change.  We still use Fahrenheit.  And efforts to "go metric" have made
little headway.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred  ci...@xenosoft.com


Re: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)

2019-06-27 Thread dwight via cctalk
I love the walk through things. I'd clearly have found a wired, digital, method 
of doing it ( printer port or such ).
I had a similar problem. I was recovering 4004 code printed out with what 
looked like a ASR33 print. I did it manually. On looking at the data, I suspect 
the platen had ruts as the pdf image had faded columns. Most of the letter text 
was for labels or comments. These were easy to patch things like P and F or E 
and B. The harder one was C and 0.  The program mostly used decimal but when 
specifying 4004 registers data, it used for the SRC instructions or nibble 
data, they were in HEX. C and 0 were used quite often. I was able to find what 
I believe were all the errors by emulating the 4004 code and finding errors in 
the operation. I recall finding the last error that was in the display output 
routine ( related to placement of the decimal point ). I'd put "00" where the 
original code was "CC". 99+% of the "CC" in the rest of the code were really 
"00". Most mixed were either "0C" or "C0" so it seemed justified to be "00". It 
was the only location that "CC" existed in the entire code.
Even the best OCR could not have done as well as a human that understood what 
the intent was. Understanding the redundancy in the code is a valuable 
attribute that a human has that would be difficult for a learning program to 
pick up. I've used similar thinking to fix cassette tape data that had 
dropouts. It was BASIC code, although tokenized. The redundancy of the good 
parts of the data made filling in the missing parts easier.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Liam Proven via 
cctalk 
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 4:55 AM
To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR (among other things)

This is *epic*.

https://github.com/stepleton/5100NonExecutableROSDecode/blob/master/WRITEUP.md

--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053


Re: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/30...

2019-06-18 Thread dwight via cctalk
Maybe a iSBC 86/30?
I don't have any of these. All I have are a couple 8080 iSBC boards.
Dwight


From: Lyle Bickley 
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 8:49 PM
To: dwight
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/30...

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 05:24:04 +
dwight  wrote:

> Hi Lyle
>  What is a 88/45? I look up the 310 systems on the web but none
> mention 88/45.

Good catch, Dwight! It was a typo. I have two 88/45 boards and don't
need more. FYI, here's a link describing the 88/45:
http://bit.ly/2N6zKGe

Here's the description of the iSBC 88/30 that I NEED in the maintenance
manual for the System 310:
http://bit.ly/2MWMij5

> Is the PAL for address decoding or something more complicated?

Not sure. Likely for address decoding but I haven't tracked down
what else it might do. Another System 310 restorer had the identical
symptoms and issues with his 310. To be more specific: The system
begins startup and then halts (run light off) after about a second of
running. The hardware manuals says that error is either an iSBC error
or DMA hanging the system. I pulled all the DMA I/O cards from the
system to make sure it wasn't DMA...

Repeating the CORRECTION: I NEED AN iSBC 88/30!!!

Thanks again, Dwight!!!

Cheers,
Lyle
__
> From: cctalk  on behalf of Lyle
> Bickley via cctalk  Sent: Monday, June 17,
> 2019 1:39 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/45... (minor corrections...)
>
> I'm in the process of restoring an Intel 310 system. I had it working
> to the point where it was trying to boot - when the 88/45 processor
> began to fail intermittently and then solidly. My debugging seems to
> indicate that the problem is in a PLD - which is a serious bummer.
>
> I have preserved the ROMS (which have built-in diagnostics/debugging
> and boot capability for both floppy and Winchester hard disks) as
> files. I will make these ROM files available to Al for posting on
> bitsavers.
>
> If someone on this list has an Intel 88/45 (or Intel 310) who would be
> willing to part with it, please contact me off list. I can to either
> do a trade or cash purchase...
>
> Cheers,
> Lyle
>
> --
> 73   NM6Y
> Bickley Consulting West Inc.
> https://bickleywest.com
>
> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"



--
73   NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
https://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"


Re: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/45... (minor corrections...)

2019-06-17 Thread dwight via cctalk
Hi Lyle
 What is a 88/45? I look up the 310 systems on the web but none mention 88/45.
Is the PAL for address decoding or something more complicated?
Dwight

From: cctalk  on behalf of Lyle Bickley via 
cctalk 
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2019 1:39 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Looking for a Intel multibus 88/45... (minor corrections...)

I'm in the process of restoring an Intel 310 system. I had it working to
the point where it was trying to boot - when the 88/45 processor
began to fail intermittently and then solidly. My debugging seems to
indicate that the problem is in a PLD - which is a serious bummer.

I have preserved the ROMS (which have built-in diagnostics/debugging
and boot capability for both floppy and Winchester hard disks) as files.
I will make these ROM files available to Al for posting on bitsavers.

If someone on this list has an Intel 88/45 (or Intel 310) who would be
willing to part with it, please contact me off list. I can to either do
a trade or cash purchase...

Cheers,
Lyle

--
73   NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
https://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"


Re: HP9816 PAL16L8

2019-06-11 Thread dwight via cctalk
I couldn't see remoting my self more from the design. The JEDIC file is 
specified, the fuses are numbered why do we need the added steps.
I was told the same thing, that there was no way other than to use a PAL 
compiler.
If you really want to confuse things, try using a PALASM or such to move from 
positive logic to negative logic.
Another use for the tristate is to make an OC output.
Dwight


From: Brian L. Stuart 
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 10:44 AM
To: Paul Berger; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; dwight
Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8

On Tue, 6/11/19, dwight via cctalk  wrote:
> When I needed to create a PAL from a schematic, I first made
> a schematic of what the PAL was suppose to do, using the
> same basic model of logic that the PAL provided. Once I was
> done, I took the PAL map from the TI book and made red dots
> on each of the connections I needed. I'd then go back

I thought I was the only one!  Back when I first used a PAL, I
also photocopied the page from the databook, marked up
the connections I wanted, and then asked my coworkers
how to get that programmed into the device.  It was pretty
annoying to learn I had to convert it to equations first.  It
seemed like a pointless extra step when the software was
just going to turn around and turn the equations back into
the matrix wiring I had just marked up.

BLS


Re: HP9816 PAL16L8

2019-06-11 Thread dwight via cctalk
I realize that most are familiar with using the equations to create the PALs 
but I'm a circuit person more than an equation person for circuits. When I 
needed to create a PAL from a schematic, I first made a schematic of what the 
PAL was suppose to do, using the same basic model of logic that the PAL 
provided. Once I was done, I took the PAL map from the TI book and made red 
dots on each of the connections I needed. I'd then go back and add the don't 
care connections. You know, A*A!. I transposed them to a text file in the JEDEC 
format ( One needs to add on non-text character as I recall ) I then gave the 
file to my friend that had a PAL programmer and made the PAL. I made a simple 
ruler to convert dot locations to column offsets.
While, Most seem to like the algebraic formulas, I find it harder to check than 
a schematic.
I had one value that I wasn't sure about that require an experimental PAL 
blown, as the circuit didn't show if the bank select was 0 or 1 at reset.
I've used this method on both the recreation of Jef Raskin's Swyft board and 
the PAL I needed for my 6532 to 6530 KIM-1 fix ( the KIM took a couple more 
PALs because as a human, I made some logic mistakes ).
Copying a L type PAL is a little simpler but in the case of the Swyft board it 
was a R type PAL. Doing it from the schematic, and know what it was suppose to 
do was much simpler than trying every possible combination of clock and data 
from the pins of a PAL ( that I didn't have anyway ).
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Paul Berger via 
cctalk 
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 5:54 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8


On 2019-06-11 1:19 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
>
>> You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :
>>
>> For each combination of inputs :
>> Read the outputs
>>   Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)
>>   Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have
>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input
>>   Check the next input
>>Check the next combination of inputs
> For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at
> vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and
> documented the process.
>
> FWIW, the setup to do this was a few TTL ICs connected to the parallel
> port of a PC.   Nowadays, I'd probably do the same with an inexpensive
> MCU--the programmable nature of MCU pins lends a certain amount of
> flexibility to the process.
>
> Basically, you separate the inputs from the outputs and then run all
> combinations of the inputs, observing the outputs.   If the tristate
> feature is used on outputs, there's a way to discover the difference
> between a tristated pin and a genuine input.
>
> There are a number of tools to perform reduction on the results, such as
> Logic Friday.   After that, you're left with a bunch of logic equations
> that can be fed into a PAL/GAL assembler and programmed.
>
> --Chuck

Old computer work too, I used a GPIO in a HP 9000-332.  Years ago I also
created general purpose I/O ports for a PC using 6821 chips since they
are way more flexible that the Intel  8255, but the HP 9000 coupled with
RMB makes for a great environment to bang out quick programs to do
things like this.

Paul.



Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (a...@alanlee.org)

2019-06-10 Thread dwight via cctalk
Again, is it just an address decoder or something more complicated. One can 
often determine the logic by looking at a schematic and knowing what it needs 
to do.
Dwight

From: cctech  on behalf of Piero Andreini via 
cctech 
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 7:58 AM
To: cct...@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (a...@alanlee.org)


> L series are combinatorial only.  You (or someone who has a working one)
> should be able to figure out a logic map by either running through all
> the input permutation or putting it in a reader that will do the same
> (vs reading the fuse data).
>
> -Alan
>
> Good luck.

unfortunately I don't have a working PAL, that's why I'm looking for the jedec 
file


Re: HP9816 PAL16L8

2019-06-08 Thread dwight via cctalk
Do you have a schematic that shows what it does. You could write your own file 
is not really complicated for a 16L8. I wrote my own for my 6532to6530 adapter 
for the KIM-1. I'll admit I did a logic mistake the first time but I'd have 
done the same with palasm.
Dwight

From: cctech  on behalf of Alan Hightower via 
cctech 
Sent: Saturday, June 8, 2019 10:18 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8


L series are combinatorial only.  You (or someone who has a working one)
should be able to figure out a logic map by either running through all
the input permutation or putting it in a reader that will do the same
(vs reading the fuse data).

-Alan

Good luck.

On 2019-06-08 11:05, Piero Andreini via cctech wrote:
> desperately looking for jedec file of PAL16L8 position U69 part #
> 1820-2991 for my HP9816


Re: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65

2019-06-04 Thread dwight via cctalk
You might still use the logic analyzer a little. The 6532 is a static part as I 
recall. You could connect up some wires and attempt a write and read of the 
6532. It sounds quite likely to be the issue but it never hurts to check the 
decoding logic. The ports are usually place at a different memory window. The 
I/O addresses may be working but the RAM addresses are not.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Rick Bensene via 
cctalk 
Sent: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 8:10 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Catatonic Rockwell AIM-65

Hi, all,

I recently was given a Rockwell AIM-65 single-board computer in nice physical 
condition, with the original keyboard and keyboard connector cable.
I've downloaded all of the documentation that I can find, and have been trying 
to get it running.

After doing a thorough visual inspection looking for any sign of detritus, 
especially anything metallic, as well as making sure all of the ICs were seated 
in the pretty-lame single-wipe sockets, and checking for any obviously cooked 
or overheated components.

Everything looked really nice, and quite clean.
All of the required chips were in place, and looked good, including the 6532 
RIOT, 6520 PIA for the display, and two 6522 VIAs.  All of the LSI's, including 
the 6502, were Rockwell-made parts, with date codes all within a reasonable 
time of each other.

I checked across the +5V and GND power supply connection points, and found that 
it wasn't shorted, another decent sign.

The machine came with all five of the ROM sockets filled with original Rockwell 
ROMs, including the two-ROM BASIC interpreter, the Assembler ROM, as well as 
the two Monitor ROMs, all installed in the sockets they should be installed in. 
   The machine had six 2114's (1024x4 static RAM) installed in the lower three 
banks of user RAM, with two of the sockets unoccupied.  I got two known good 
2114's from my stock of parts and installed them in the two empty sockets, so 
that the machine would be in the 4K of User RAM configuration.

I understand that the machine can be powered up with only the +5V supply, but 
the thermal printer will show as "down", as it requires the +24V supply.  The 
+12/-12 supplies are also not required.

I made sure that the RESET switch worked properly, and tested the KB/TTY and 
RUN/STEP switches operated properly.  I set the KB/TTY switch to KB, and the 
RUN/STEP switch to RUN.

I found a power supply that provides +5V at 5A, and tested it out on a dummy 
load to make sure it was healthy and had clean output, and it was fine.  I 
connected it up to the +5 and +5 Return (GND) terminals on the power supply 
input barrier strip, and held my breath, and switched on the power strip that 
the power supply was plugged into.

The result.  Absolutely nothing.
No sign of any activity on the display.
I didn't expect anything from the printer, because it didn't have its +24V 
power.

I left it powered for a little bit, checking for any chips that seemed 
unusually hot or anything else that seemed amiss, and nothing was obviously 
upset.   The CPU chip warmed up slightly to the touch, but wasn't at all 
alarming in terms of its temperature. I pressed the RESET switch a number 
of times, and it made no difference.   Oh well.

I powered it off, and pulled the ROM chips out, and decided I'd pop 'em in my 
ROM programmer and compare them to the ROM images I'd downloaded off the net.

The two monitor ROMs verified exactly.   The Assembler ROM also verified 
correctly.  One of the BASIC ROMs also verified properly, but the other failed 
the verification.  Hmm...upon READing it into the programmer's RAM, I dumped it 
out, and low and behold, it read back as all 0xFF's.   Oops..  I double checked 
that the ROM was properly seated in the programmer's ZIF socket, and it was.  I 
tried READing it a number of times, and the result was always the same.  This 
ROM must have expired somewhere along the way.  I can blast a 2732 with the 
proper bits and build an adapter to make BASIC work once I get the thing 
running, and hope that maybe sometime I might find a good blank OTP 2532 ROM I 
can blast with the code, or find one already programmed somewhere.

That said, the BASIC ROMs aren't required to get the AIM-65 to "boot up" in the 
Monitor, nor is the assembler ROM.  I decided to set the BASIC and Assembler 
ROMs aside, and just re-installed the known-good monitor ROMs in the proper 
sockets.

I double-checked that all of the RAM chips were properly inserted in their 
sockets by pulling and re-inserting them, as well as the 6502, 6532, and 
6522's.  The 6520 on the display board is soldered in, so no socket issues 
there.

I powered it up again, and verified that +5V was present on all of the chips on 
the board, and that was fine, with every chip showing +5 give or take +/- .02 
Volts.  All of the GND pins were at 0V, with only tiny (sub-millivolt) noise on 
GND.

I put a big dip-clip 

Re: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel

2019-05-28 Thread dwight via cctalk
Hi Bob
 Even with 3d printing, you'd need to do some  sanding and shaping to make it 
look as clean as the original. I still think casing one is the best option. If 
the mold is right, it will even match the surface.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom via 
cctalk 
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 8:57 AM
To: William Donzelli; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel

On 5/28/2019 6:42 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> I think that is an IBM specific knob. I will keep an eye out for one,
> but do not hold your breath! It is certainly not a common knob.
>
> Is it for a 1/4 inch shaft?
>
> --
> Will
Yes, it's a standard 1/4" shaft. Might try and get one 3D printed if I
can figure out how to draw it.

Bob

> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:41 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
>  wrote:
>> A long shot I know, but I'm looking for an IBM knob that's missing from
>> a 609 calculator panel I have.
>> Photos can be seen here:
>>
>> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl1.JPG
>> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl4.JPG
>> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl5.JPG
>>
>> I have no idea if the knob was made by IBM or was a common knob of the
>> times.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> --
>> Vintage computers and electronics
>> www.dvq.com
>> www.tekmuseum.com
>> www.decmuseum.org
>>


--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org



Re: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel

2019-05-28 Thread dwight via cctalk
I've never seen one exactly like that before either. You might want to make a 
mold and create one that way.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of William Donzelli via 
cctalk 
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 6:42 AM
To: Bob Rosenbloom; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel

I think that is an IBM specific knob. I will keep an eye out for one,
but do not hold your breath! It is certainly not a common knob.

Is it for a 1/4 inch shaft?

--
Will

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:41 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> A long shot I know, but I'm looking for an IBM knob that's missing from
> a 609 calculator panel I have.
> Photos can be seen here:
>
> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl1.JPG
> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl4.JPG
> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl5.JPG
>
> I have no idea if the knob was made by IBM or was a common knob of the
> times.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
>
> --
> Vintage computers and electronics
> www.dvq.com
> www.tekmuseum.com
> www.decmuseum.org
>


Re: Rgb intensity line

2019-04-20 Thread dwight via cctalk
I'm not sure what needs to be done but almost sure a resistor to ground is not 
likely to be the answer. Give it a try without it first.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Bill Degnan via 
cctalk 
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2019 5:33 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Rgb intensity line

I am fashioning an RGB cable from parts.  The computer (LNW80) does not
send an "intensity" signal, it is only a 6pin rgb.  The magnavox rgb 80
display that I wish to use to receive has a pin for an intensity signal.
Other than "intensity" the rgb signals can be matched up.

Question...what happens when a computer does not send an intensity signal
to a display that has this input?  I will find out soon enough but I am
curious to ask before I begin should anyone have a suggestion.  Do I need
to add a resistor off of ground or something to fix it to something?

Bill


Re: Plane of core memory

2019-04-18 Thread dwight via cctalk
Although, after written, there is little magnetism lost out side of the ring, 
while being magnetized, there is quite a bit of stray magnetism. By placing the 
the rings at 90 degrees, it minimizes the magnetism induced in the adjacent 
ring. The fields follow the inverse square law so the effect drops off quite 
quickly. Also the ring tend to pull the magnetic field into the ring, at least 
until saturated. At that time the field can leak into a neighbor and flip its 
state. Not being aligned with the direction of the ring also minimizes this 
stray field.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Anders Nelson via 
cctalk 
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2019 6:01 PM
To: paulkon...@comcast.net; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Plane of core memory

I believe I read they weaved the planes this way to minimize crosstalk, EMI
or heat.

=]

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 1:13 PM Paul Koning via cctalk 
wrote:

>
>
> > On Apr 18, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 04/18/2019 04:49 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
> >> It's a 4-wire 3D planar array. By topology and construction I would
> guess it date it from the 60s.
> > Make that EARLY '60s.  As soon as somebody figured out that you could
> combine the sense and inhibit wires, everybody immediately went to 3-wire
> planes.
> >
> > Jon
>
> Is that true even for the highest speed designs?
>
> CDC 6000 series memory is unusual in that it has 5 wires per core.
> Instead of the classic X, Y, Inhibit, Sense it has two inhibit wires,
> routed in the X and Y direction.  There are four X and four Y inhibit
> wires, each of which run through 1/4th of the cores, so a given inhibit
> pair acts on 1/16th of the cores.
>
> The documentation doesn't spell out why this is done.  My guess is that it
> makes the various driven wires more alike in how many cores they pass
> through.  X and Y, in the 12 bit stack, pass through 64 * 12 cores.  Each
> inhibit wire passes through 64 * 16 cores, i.e., nearly the same number.
> And the driver circuits for all these wires are the same.
>
> A regular full-plane inhibit wire would pass through 4k cores, meaning the
> inductance is far higher than that of the X and Y wires.  So either the
> drive circuit would require a lot more power, or it would be significantly
> slower than the X/Y drive.
>
> As for separate sense, split inhibit obviously requires that, but even
> with conventional inhibit, keeping sense separate avoids the overhead of
> switching the signal path between two very different bits of circuitry.
>
> Compared to many other core memory designs of that same era, the 6000
> memory is quite fast, with access times of a few hundred nanoseconds and
> full cycle (read plus restore) in one microsecond.  Actually, comfortably
> under 1 microsecond, allowing for magic like read and update in one cycle
> (for the exchange instruction in the CPU) or read and write new data in one
> cycle via the ALU data path (in the PPUs).  I suspect the unusual core
> plane design was a factor in making this speed possible.
>
> paul
>
>


Re: Plane of core memory

2019-04-18 Thread dwight via cctalk
I don't believe there is a simple non-destructive way to read the state. If you 
could remove the cores, I believe you could put each core in a weak magnetic 
field. As the field passes from side to side, one should be able to determine 
the direction of the saturated cores because one side would allow more of the 
field to enter the core while the other side would act as non-magnetic.
As for reading the data, you'd need to experiment to determine the minimum 
current that particular core required to flip a bit. With careful adjusting, I 
suspect one could sample the first bit.
Once knowing the levels used, the entire array can be read.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Jim Brain via cctalk 

Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2019 10:19 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Plane of core memory

I am the enviable owners of a plane of memory (procured a few years back
at VCF-East, when there were a bunch of 32K? boards int he consignment pile.

(Sorry, not currently interested in selling :-)

But, I am thankful for the links, as I have wanted to interface this
with a CPU or PC of some kind.

A few questions, though:

  * Is there a way to "read" the core non destructively using any kind
of passive method (I know, it would be tedious, no doubt, but I just
feel like I should "backup" the core before I go messing with it)?
  * Along with the above, might there be a way to extend the passive
read to be a worthy "exhibit" I could take to shows? Core memory is
impressive just to look at, but reading it out using the PC and
displaying the contents is so easy to fake that I think people will
assume the core memory is not really being used.  Some way of
showing the actual magnetic changes in a small matrix (the large
plane I have is probably not a good candidate unless there is a way
to show such minute cores fields) would I think make the exhibit far
more interesting, especially if I arranged the grid in a square and
created a really slow version of something like "Tetris" on the plane.

Ideas appreciated.

Jim




Re: Plane of core memory

2019-04-18 Thread dwight via cctalk
My understanding was that the mercury delay lines needed periodic repairs ( not 
sure what the cause was but mercury does dissolve into many metals ). If I were 
going to make a delay line memory, I'd go with the magnetostrictive. These are 
practical to make. One just needs a little ingenuity and a spool of piano wire.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk 

Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2019 9:42 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Plane of core memory



On 4/18/19 9:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> Anyone with a Williams tube project?

The 1401 guys at CHM were working on one using a real 701 tube.
I don't think it was ever finished.

@tubetimeus built a small core array with Bulgarian cores
https://twitter.com/TubeTimeUS/status/1053424445463752704

Discussion of the EDSAC rebuild
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGEAPVCuwvY

Haven't heard if anyone has tried to get one of the Russian MR
lines on eBay to do anything, or if anyone has a running Packard-Bell PB-250




Re: Control Console, but not PDP-10

2019-04-12 Thread dwight via cctalk
It is funny that the fellow that is selling the DSKY may not have the legal 
right to sell it. It may technically belong to the trash company that collected 
the rest of the stuff.
I'm a trash scrounger myself but there are differences with stuff no one cares 
about and things of value.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Guy Sotomayor Jr via 
cctalk 
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:45 AM
To: Ethan Dicks; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: Paul Birkel
Subject: Re: Control Console, but not PDP-10

You should talk to Carl as he’s created (or far along in the process) of a DSKY 
to interface to
an actual AGC that’s being restored (there are a number of videos on-line of 
the restoration
effort…mostly done by converting a hotel room into a lab).

TTFN - Guy

> On Apr 11, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk  
> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 1:23 AM Paul Birkel via cctalk
>  wrote:
>> Now consider a DSKY.  Currently at $27,500.00.  Auction estimate: $60,000+
>
> I'd love to have a DSKY to fiddle around on, just for kicks, but my
> budget for a replica is a tiny fraction of that...
>
> -ethan



Re: Game of Life for PDP-8

2019-04-08 Thread dwight via cctalk
For those searching on the web, look for life and Conway. Otherwise you get a 
lot of other junk. There is an interesting video of an interview with John done 
not to many years ago.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of dwight via cctalk 

Sent: Monday, April 8, 2019 6:54 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Game of Life for PDP-8

When I first got my arduino and connected it to a small oled screen I thought 
about a script to generate life on the screen. As it was, I wrote a pong game, 
using pots for paddles.
One thing to think about, in life, is how to deal with edges.
One way is that the bits could just fall off. Another way is they could reflect.
Yet another way is the edges could wrap around. In other words, if it when off 
the top, it would show up in the same column at the bottom of the screen. A 
variation of this is that it might swap sides when going of an edge. This could 
include rotating axis and/or swapping polarity of axis.
Each has interesting effects when shooting gliders at things.
There is a lot of stuff on the web.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Bill Degnan via 
cctalk 
Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 8:14 PM
To: Kyle Owen; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Game of Life for PDP-8

>
> Would love to hear some comments if anyone plays with this. And, if someone
> significantly speeds things up while keeping the large playing field, I'll
> be very happy to hear how!
>
> Kyle
>

A few years ago I made some videos of the output on vt50 driven by my pdp8e.

Spontaneous generation of squirrels

https://youtu.be/B-H-h-s5IpM

Well, they looked like squirrels at the time..

Bill


Re: Game of Life for PDP-8

2019-04-08 Thread dwight via cctalk
When I first got my arduino and connected it to a small oled screen I thought 
about a script to generate life on the screen. As it was, I wrote a pong game, 
using pots for paddles.
One thing to think about, in life, is how to deal with edges.
One way is that the bits could just fall off. Another way is they could reflect.
Yet another way is the edges could wrap around. In other words, if it when off 
the top, it would show up in the same column at the bottom of the screen. A 
variation of this is that it might swap sides when going of an edge. This could 
include rotating axis and/or swapping polarity of axis.
Each has interesting effects when shooting gliders at things.
There is a lot of stuff on the web.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Bill Degnan via 
cctalk 
Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 8:14 PM
To: Kyle Owen; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Game of Life for PDP-8

>
> Would love to hear some comments if anyone plays with this. And, if someone
> significantly speeds things up while keeping the large playing field, I'll
> be very happy to hear how!
>
> Kyle
>

A few years ago I made some videos of the output on vt50 driven by my pdp8e.

Spontaneous generation of squirrels

https://youtu.be/B-H-h-s5IpM

Well, they looked like squirrels at the time..

Bill


Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?

2019-03-29 Thread dwight via cctalk
>From an emulation standpoint, latch or flop is not necessarily an issue. It is 
>that it is a state holding element. The only potential issue is if he was 
>doing clock cycle emulation. He'd need to understand what was originally 
>considered a clock cycle.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Paul Koning via 
cctalk 
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 9:51 AM
To: Jon Elson; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: Ken Shirriff
Subject: Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?



> On Mar 29, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk  
> wrote:
>
> ...
> Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs.  All storage elements were 
> transparent latches, and they generally used a 4-phase clock.

The same is true for the CDC 6600.  Not a big surprise; a transparent latch can 
be made of two cross-connected gates, while a flip-flop (edge triggered) 
requires more stuff (four gates?).  And the 6600 uses at least four clock 
phases; in parts of the CPU there are additional clocks so some of the hairy 
parts are more like 6 or so phases.

paul



Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

2019-03-27 Thread dwight via cctalk
A friend an I did almost the same thing. We used the transformer primary from 
another box as an auto transformer and used a file to grind the motor pulley 
down. We did have to file the mounting slots some as well. It worked fine.
This was about 25 years ago.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 2:07 PM
To: dwight via cctalk
Subject: Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

On 3/27/19 1:36 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Most all 8 inch drives were synchronous capacitive phased AC motors. That is 
> until 3 phase low voltage motors started showing up on 5.25 disk drives.
> The ac motors on the 8 inch drives rarely had jumper options for 120/240V AC. 
> Most were fixed voltage and cycles. I can't recall any that I've seen that 
> had a voltage option.
> Dwight

I picked up a new Qume 842 for 220V 50 Hz and simply substituted a
flanged timing pulley for the crowned one, adjusted for the frequency
variation.   I powered it from the power supply transformer primaries
hooked as an autotransformer to give 240VAC.   Worked just fine.

--Chuck



Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

2019-03-27 Thread dwight via cctalk
Most all 8 inch drives were synchronous capacitive phased AC motors. That is 
until 3 phase low voltage motors started showing up on 5.25 disk drives.
The ac motors on the 8 inch drives rarely had jumper options for 120/240V AC. 
Most were fixed voltage and cycles. I can't recall any that I've seen that had 
a voltage option.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Charles Dickman via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 12:58 PM
To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 3:27 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> One could also take Tony's approach and simply cobble up a
> crystal-controlled 60Hz source for the motor.  Shouldn't be too
> difficult--I suspect that the motor doesn't draw more than about 30W.
> If you had an excess of 12VDC, you could possibly use an inexpensive
> inverter to do the job.
>
>
Never saw a floppy drive with an AC motor. In the past discussions about
50Hz vs 60Hz drive, I expected it to be a 120/240 VAC motor. So is it
actually a low voltage (synchronous) AC motor?


Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM?

2019-03-27 Thread dwight via cctalk
The next question is, does anyone have a disk with directory structure and 
utilities?
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of dwight via cctalk 

Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 6:15 AM
To: Glen Slick; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM?

Hi Glen
 Sorry for not replying right away. I've been on the road.
No, I've not gotten the manual. I do have a disk controller board with my 
system. I'd have to look back to see what disk controller code was in the ROMs. 
I suspect it might just be to read the first bock of data and then expect the 
rest of the code to be from the disk for disk I/O.
Next chance I get, I'll look to see what is there.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Glen Slick via cctalk 

Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 10:09 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM?

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 3:23 PM Mike Stein  wrote:
>
> I can't help but I'm curious: why are you looking for this? Is there a lot of 
> original Rockwell source out there?
>

I have some Rockwell RM-65 cards which have on-board firmware. In
particular a RM65-5101E FDC Controller and a RM65-5102E CRT
Controller. It would be nice to have verified accurate machine
readable source code for the firmware on these cards. One way to get
that would be to manually type in verbatim the firmware source code
from the assembly listings in the manuals, then assemble the source
code, and then compare the resulting binary against the contents of
the EPROMs on the cards to verify a binary match.

The source code could always be reformatted to match the input syntax
of a different assembler, but from a historical documentation
perspective it would be nice if the original source code format was
preserved.

Dwight, I saw some posts from you from maybe last year where you were
looking for a manual for the RM65-1000 / RM65-1000E CPU board. Did you
ever find a copy or scan of that manual?

Does anyone have an AIM-65 DOS EPROM for the RM65-5101 / RM65-5101E
FDC Controller? From a quick look at a hex dump of the firmware EPROM
I have on my RM65-5101E FDC Controller it appears to match the low
level primitives assembly listing in the 29801 N02 manual for the card
0x886C - 0x8EFF, except the copyright string is missing at the end.
I'm not sure about the rest of the code in the FDC Controller EPROM.
It might be something specific to the system where this card was being
used, and not the standard AIM-65 DOS code. It would be nice to have a
copy of the standard AIM-65 DOS EPROM to try using the RM65-5101E FDC
Controller with an AIM-65. I have an extender board and cable to
connect an AIM-65 to a RM65 Eurocard card cage.


Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM?

2019-03-27 Thread dwight via cctalk
Hi Glen
 Sorry for not replying right away. I've been on the road.
No, I've not gotten the manual. I do have a disk controller board with my 
system. I'd have to look back to see what disk controller code was in the ROMs. 
I suspect it might just be to read the first bock of data and then expect the 
rest of the code to be from the disk for disk I/O.
Next chance I get, I'll look to see what is there.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Glen Slick via cctalk 

Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 10:09 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM?

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 3:23 PM Mike Stein  wrote:
>
> I can't help but I'm curious: why are you looking for this? Is there a lot of 
> original Rockwell source out there?
>

I have some Rockwell RM-65 cards which have on-board firmware. In
particular a RM65-5101E FDC Controller and a RM65-5102E CRT
Controller. It would be nice to have verified accurate machine
readable source code for the firmware on these cards. One way to get
that would be to manually type in verbatim the firmware source code
from the assembly listings in the manuals, then assemble the source
code, and then compare the resulting binary against the contents of
the EPROMs on the cards to verify a binary match.

The source code could always be reformatted to match the input syntax
of a different assembler, but from a historical documentation
perspective it would be nice if the original source code format was
preserved.

Dwight, I saw some posts from you from maybe last year where you were
looking for a manual for the RM65-1000 / RM65-1000E CPU board. Did you
ever find a copy or scan of that manual?

Does anyone have an AIM-65 DOS EPROM for the RM65-5101 / RM65-5101E
FDC Controller? From a quick look at a hex dump of the firmware EPROM
I have on my RM65-5101E FDC Controller it appears to match the low
level primitives assembly listing in the 29801 N02 manual for the card
0x886C - 0x8EFF, except the copyright string is missing at the end.
I'm not sure about the rest of the code in the FDC Controller EPROM.
It might be something specific to the system where this card was being
used, and not the standard AIM-65 DOS code. It would be nice to have a
copy of the standard AIM-65 DOS EPROM to try using the RM65-5101E FDC
Controller with an AIM-65. I have an extender board and cable to
connect an AIM-65 to a RM65 Eurocard card cage.


Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM?

2019-03-21 Thread dwight via cctalk
It is possibly an in house generated assembler. It may even have been written 
in Forth. Most Forth assemblers are written as single pass but it is not hard 
to make it a multiple pass. Such an assembler could have been cobbled together 
in Forth in a couple weeks of one programmer. I do know that they did extensive 
internal work in Forth. I have a ICE product that was clearly done in Forth ( 
missing pods and personality floppies ).
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Will Cooke via cctalk 

Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 1:47 PM
To: Glen Slick; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM?



> On March 21, 2019 at 4:20 PM Glen Slick via cctalk  
> wrote:
>
>
> Anyone know what 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor
> ROM, as shown in the AIM-65 Monitor Program Listing manual, document
> number 29650N36L ?
>

I would suspect it was the Rockwell System 65 Development System assembler 
mentioned in this book:


https://www.commodore.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/1981_Rockwell_Electronic_Devices_Division_Data_Book.pdf

on page 295

Will


"He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."  -- Charlie Daniels


"The names of global variables should start with// "  -- https://isocpp.org


Re: Pioneers of computing

2019-03-11 Thread dwight via cctalk
Calculators are clearly a step in the progression. Also, clearly not the 
beginning.  To pick any one even and say that was the beginning is absurd. 
There are to many steps involved. The need to do mathematical calculations was 
clearly a driving force but that goes back before Babbage.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Noel Chiappa via 
cctalk 
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 7:09 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Pioneers of computing

> From: Brent Hilpert

>>> Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas
>>> Instruments created an integrated circuit designed to replace the
>>> calulator. Historians, though not all, credit this development as the
>>> beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway
>>> by the mid-70s.

>> Scotty, more power to the Reality Distortion Field!

> It's not an out-to-lunch suggestion.
> The digital pocket calculator was the first mass-market digital electronic
> device to be put in the hands of the consumer.

It's not clear which element of the original post that Al was referring to; I
saw several things I might disagree with:

- Unless you look at the date carefully, the notion that TI's work developing
chips was intended to replace the calculator.

- The notion that it was calculators that drove the development of micros;
Intel had actually started work on a micro for Datapoint, which was
eventually released as the 8008, _before_ they started on the 4004 for
Busicom.


I'd have to think long and hard before I rendered a judgement on how
important digital pocket calculators were to where we are today.

My initial reaction is to say 'not very', though - early personal computers,
centered on Silicon Valley, were mostly driven by having, well, a personal
computer. It's not clear that widespread ownership of personal calculators
did anything to drive that.

Noel


Re: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list

2019-03-01 Thread dwight via cctalk
Maybe I need a little clearification.
When you turn the switches off, it boots?
Dwight


From: cctech  on behalf of Alan Perry via cctech 

Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 1:35 PM
To: Ethan Dicks
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list



> On Mar 1, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 1:21 PM Alan Perry via cctech
>  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. Does
>> anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors used in
>> the power supply that I can use to order parts?
>
> I don't have a list (I just got a pair of Rainbows last month) but
> given the era of manufacture, I'd be looking for Rifa EMI filter caps
> by the power inlet.  I've had those fail in BA23 cabinets and in a
> Commodore D9060 hard drive, and a TRS-80 Model 4.

Thanks. When I first got the Rainbow, I asked here about what to look for 
before powering it up and was told about Rifa caps and what look/listen for.

I eventually threw caution to the wind and just powered it up and I ran it for 
15-20 minutes. The PVA in the monitor was really cloudy, so I didn’t use the 
system anymore until I removed the PVA over Christmas. I was testing everything 
after that and the system was booting up when the power all switched off like 
it had been unplugged.

alan


>
> This is totally different than failing/bulging electrolytics.
>
> -ethan



Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

2019-02-19 Thread dwight via cctalk
Actually, I'd like to see it just read/write flux changes +  index marks onto a 
SD card for later analysis. Building all the smarts into the controller means 
that some formats will get missed. One can later write translation code for 
what ever format one has. Make this information open source, much of it is 
already in bits and pieces. Make sure it can read and buffer an entire track of 
data in RAM ( Gotek can't ).
We no longer need proprietary hardware. There are a number of off the shelf 
controller boards capable of handing this. It would only need cables to match 
the drive.
Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 2:02 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

>> I'm planning on a USB controller, but I've seen ISA projects that are
>> also microcontroller based so I think it wouldn't be awfully difficult
>> to replace the USB data pipe with an ISA one.

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Ali via cctalk wrote:
> Well just because you don't have enough to do please plan on an ISA
> version as well ;) I think it really is time someone did a super floppy
> controller bringing together a number of older technology on to one easy
> to use card (e.g. 8" drive support, copy protection bypass, GCR reading)
> - all of this was available as separate products in the past...

What I would like to see, coming at it from a high level software
viewpoint, would be:
Complete and accurate emulation of 765.  Including ROM or being loadable
into RAM (TSR) and repoint the Int13h vector.  That would permit it to
fully replace the stock 765.
Include a switchable "quirks" mode for full compatability with 765
"features", such as "flash blindness" after index pulse, switchable
inability to handle 128 byte sectors, etc.

8" and FM and 128 byte sector support (obviously)
125kbps (5.25" FM), 250Kbps, 500Kbps, 1000Kbps (2.8M)

Ability to read MFM data with FM headers (RX50)

Added commands accessible through the [replacement] Int13h:
 Track read, modeled after the WD track read  (that could also
provide access to Amiga, with additional code for sectors and filesystem)
 RAW track read (flux transition), with and without data/clock
synchronization.   Hard sector, GCR, copy protection cloning, etc. could
be handled by other code that calls that function in the [replacement]
Int13h.


Optionally:
drivers for "modern" OS,
inverted data reversal,
EBCDIC/ASCII conversion
Installable File System (IFS) to permit mounting alien disks, including:
 Apple2
 ProDos/SOS
 Apple CP/M
 Apple P-System
 Mac 400K/800K
 Commodore
 Sirius/Victor 9000
 CP/M (partial list available at http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html)
 P-System
 Amiga
 Northstar N-DOS
 TRS-DOS and derivatives (list available on request)
 Coco-DOS
 Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC (NEC, Oki, etc.)
 Unix/Linux file systems
If it also does HDDs, . . .


>> My friends think it's silly, and they're probably right. =P


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred  ci...@xenosoft.com


Re: Q: Plotter bed repair with MonoKote?

2019-02-18 Thread dwight via cctalk
I find that it is too much pre-stretched I carefully remove some of the stretch 
with a heat gun and a frame to hold it. You'd need to experiment some. It has 
to have a little stretch left to shrink.
Dwight


From: cctech  on behalf of David Collins via 
cctech 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:15 PM
To: Craig Ruff; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Q: Plotter bed repair with MonoKote?

Also very interested in the use of Monokote to repair plotter beds...any more 
info/experience/tips/traps would be much appreciated.

David Collins
HP Computer Museum

> On 19 Feb 2019, at 5:37 am, Craig Ruff via cctech  
> wrote:
>
>
>> On Feb 18, 2019, at 11:00 AM, dwight wrote:
>>
>> There were a couple hp XY plotters that had the mylar plate delaminating. 
>> I've reworked these with model airplane mono coat.
>
> Are you referring to MonoKote (www.monokote.com 
> )?  That looks perfect for repairing the gouged bed 
> of one of my 9872C plotters.  Is a hot air supply suitable for applying the 
> film, or did you use their heating iron?  I'm guessing a bit of pressure to 
> adhere the film is necessary?


Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough

2019-02-18 Thread dwight via cctalk
There were a couple hp XY plotters that had the mylar plate delaminating. I've 
reworked these with model airplane mono coat. I'd be interested in one of these 
if they'd not been to far away.
If you do a search, there is also a youtube video of a more extended walk 
through. The fellow was also a collector of 16mm films. He has racks and racks 
of them. He has a lot of tubes and a few old radios. The fellow doing the video 
was not to interested in these things.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of John Blake via cctalk 

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 4:57 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough

Any idea what that blue Data General machine was?  Some kind of terminal
server?



Re: Intel Universal Prom Programmer UPP 103 documentation

2019-02-16 Thread dwight via cctalk
Not sure how much this will help but the EPROM programmer boards were an 
evolutionary thing. The UPP-816 would be quite similar to the UPP-833, except 
for extra stuff for voltage control and added addresses. What is the issue you 
are having with the board?
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of craig andrews via 
cctalk 
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 12:20 AM
To: cct...@classiccmp.org
Subject: Intel Universal Prom Programmer UPP 103 documentation

Hello, I need to do some work on my intel UPP-833 personality card in my UPP 
and am looking for  documentation

This document:

9800133F_Universal_PROM_Programmer_Reference_Manual_1977

has schematics for personality cards available in ‘77 but does not include the 
UPP-833
I am having trouble with my UPP-833 and could use some documentation. 
Documentation on the UPP-832 would probably be helpful if nothing on the 833

There may be a newer version of 102448-001 I do not know about.  There are two 
Documents that should have the information are:

102448-001.  Printed Wiring Assembly UPP-833 Personality (drawings and 
schematics), L1002488, 123832, 2000966

123832-001. Printed Wiring Assembly UPP-833 Personality (drawings and 
schematics), L1002488, 123832, 2000966

Can anyone help?

Regards

Craig



Re: WTB : CTL, CTuL 9956 ??

2019-02-05 Thread dwight via cctalk
I'm curious as to what the 9956 is for? One might be able to hack something 
together with a NPN transistor and a TTL and gate.
This looks to be one of the oddball chips that Fairchild made in the early 
days, before most settled down to TTL being the more common.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of GerardCJAT via cctalk 

Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 11:05 PM
To: cct...@classiccmp.org; cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: WTB : CTL, CTuL 9956 ??

This is a (very ) long shoot  !
I am looking for ( Fairchild ? ) CTL / CTuL  9956 chips.
Anyone ? Thanks.


Re: OT Parts houses & scrappers

2019-01-28 Thread dwight via cctalk
Will is right. You have to convince them that it will be worth their time to 
sort that particular item out, find packaging to send it and deal with the 
typical book keeping required by their particular state, as compared to the 
time/return of just tossing it into the fire to burn off the undesired part.
Say it takes them 45 minutes to handle one board and compare that to the 
hundreds of boards in the same time to reprocess. When looking at the 45 
minutes, also consider the various overheads involved.
They are in business. Time is money.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of William Donzelli via 
cctalk 
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 4:24 PM
To: Chris Hanson; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: OT Parts houses & scrappers

> If someone isn’t able to sell for the price they’d like to get, maybe the 
> market won’t bear that price and they need to lower it. Scrapping should be a 
> course of last resort, a way to recover value from something you can’t even 
> give away, not a competing outlet for goods.

But in this case, there IS a price that the market WILL bear. And that
price is determined by scrap/mining/commodity factors.

The prices exists, and the market exists. Complain all you want, but
if you want to win the fight, so need to know what you are dealing
with.

--
Will

--
Will


Re: HP 1000 A class series boards

2019-01-28 Thread dwight via cctalk
The resistor goes on the battery plug or the unit will not power up. The 
computer was suppose to have a battery bank to keep the DRAM from losing data 
when turned off, like the original core used on earlier machines. The resistor 
detected the battery pack that one rarely use.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Guy Dunphy via cctalk 

Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2019 3:06 PM
To: Jesse Dougherty; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: HP 1000 A class series boards

Hello Jesse,

I have this: 
http://everist.org/NobLog/20131112_HP_1000_minicomputer_teardown.htm

It's a stalled project, due to unfortunate circumstance. I was at the point of 
preparing
to reassemble the machine (after cleaning) and start testing. Wanted to first 
test the power
supply under dummy load, to check for bad caps etc. Could not find a schematic 
for this model
of power supply online. Had contacted Jon Johnston, who ran the Australian HP 
Museum. He said
he might have it, but was overseas (mountain climbing) at the time. He came 
back, but went off
climbing again in the Himalayas before I contacted him again to remind him. 
That time, he died
on the mountain.
This was doubly sad for me, since of my two best friends, now both dead, one 
had died climbing
in the Himalayas (David Hume, Mt Macalu 1996), and the other had nearly killed 
himself and me
by severe negligence while we were doing a short 30m climb here in Australia. 
So my HP 1000
restoration became something of an avoidance issue.

Since I joined cctalk and vintHP, I've been meaning to restart this project 
with assistance here.
But too busy so far with other things.

At the moment I'm not sure if my machine is an 'A-series' or not. How do I tell?
It's a 2113E, apparently quite a late model. I've had it and related hardware 
(minus disk drives)
since the early 2000's. It was a junkyard find. All in perfect condition except 
one of the two
tape drives has a little 'forklift damage' to the front. I rescued it all from 
being landfilled.

Guy



At 01:38 PM 27/01/2019 -0500, you wrote:
>If anyone can use any of the 1000 A Series boards, I have the
>following.. feel free to contract need anything. Sorry for the two
>inventory postings, I spent all weekend inventorying these boards.
>
>02430-60009Â Â Â  Voltage jumper board
>12001-60003Â Â Â  A400 CPU board
>12004-60001Â Â Â  Memory Controller
>12005-60002Â Â Â  Cable Assembly
>12005-60010Â Â Â  Serial Interface board
>12005-60012Â Â Â  Serial Interface board
>12008-60001Â Â Â  Prom Storage Module
>12009-60001Â Â Â  HP-IB Interface
>12009-60010Â Â Â  HP-IB Interface
>12009-60020Â Â Â  HP-IB Controller Card
>12010-60003Â Â Â  Bread Board Interface
>12012-60001Â Â Â  Jumper Board
>12025-60001Â Â Â  I/O Card
>12038-60002Â Â Â  Frontplane memory connector
>12038-60005Â Â Â  Frontplane Memory Connector
>12040A/BÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  8- Channel MUX
>12060-60002Â Â Â  Analog Input card
>12076-60001Â Â Â  LAN Interface
>12100-60001Â Â Â  A400 CPU board
>12101-60001Â Â Â  A600 CPU board
>12102-60002Â Â Â  512kb Memory Controller
>12102-60007Â Â Â  512kb Memory Controller
>12103-60003Â Â Â  512kb Memory
>12103-60004Â Â Â  1MB Memory
>12103-60016Â Â Â  512kn Memory
>12105-60001Â Â Â  A600 CPU board
>12110-60002Â Â Â  1MB Memory
>12150-60002Â Â Â  Interface
>12152-60001Â Â Â  A700 Upper processor
>12152-60002Â Â Â  A700 Lower processor
>12152-60003Â Â Â  Memory Controller
>12154-60005Â Â Â  Battery Back-up
>12156-60001Â Â Â  Floating Point Processor
>12156-60002Â Â Â  3-slot frontplane connector
>12163-66001Â Â Â  Interface
>12202-60002Â Â Â  DataPath
>12202-60104Â Â Â  DataPath
>12202-69006Â Â Â  DataPath
>12203-60004Â Â Â  Cache Controller
>12203-60017Â Â Â  Cache Controller
>12203-69018Â Â Â  Cache Controller
>12204-60002Â Â Â  Memory Controller
>12204-60004Â Â Â  Memory Controller
>12204-60005Â Â Â  Memory Controller
>12220-60001Â Â Â  768kb Memory
>1-60001Â Â Â  Frontplane Memory Connector
>1-60002Â Â Â  Frontplane memory connector
>1-60004Â Â Â  Frontplane Memory Connector
>12230-60001Â Â Â  Frontplane Memory Connector
>12230-60003Â Â Â  Frontplane Memory Connector
>12230-60004Â Â Â  Frontplane Memory Connector
>37203-60003Â Â Â  Extender Card
>5061-3434Â Â Â  Direct connect I/O Board
>5061-4938Â Â Â  Direct connect I/O Board
>5061-4939 Â Â Â  Direct connect I/O Board
>5061-4940Â Â Â  Interface
>5090-1631 – 5061-3417    Interface
>93691-60003Â Â Â  Asynchronous Multiplexer
>93699-60003Â Â Â  Watchdog Timer
>
>


Re: OT RE: Bogus "account hacked" message

2019-01-10 Thread dwight via cctalk
Early on, I had a telephone call where they told me that their testing showed 
that my computer had a virus. They would fix it for me for only $50. At the 
time, I didn't even have a computer connected to the web at home ( lived in the 
mountains ).
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Jon Elson via cctalk 

Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 9:20 AM
To: Dave Wade; gene...@ezwind.net; Discussion@
Subject: Re: OT RE: Bogus "account hacked" message

On 01/10/2019 01:19 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
>
>
> I was going to say that permanent blocks on IP addresses seems fruitless.
>
> I assume that BotNets are compromised end user machines, and that the end
> users that have them are on standard dynamic IP address, so when some one
> gets one of your blocked addresses.
>
>
Well, they are not "permanent".  I forget what I have it set
to, but after some time it does expire them from
hosts.deny   Likely, I could set that sunset period shorter.

Jon


Re: OT? Upper limits of FSB

2019-01-09 Thread dwight via cctalk
As long as things stay in a pipe, instruction decode and execution looks to 
execute in one cycle. Pipe flushes are the penalty. That is where speculative 
execution pays off. ( also food for Meltdown and Spectre type security holes ). 
Such loops are quite fast if the prediction was right.
Running small unrolled loops only give you a small advantage if the predictor 
is working well for your code. Large unrolled loops only gain a small amount 
percentage wise, as always.
If one is unrolling a large amount, one may end up getting a cache miss. That 
can easily eats up any benefit of unrolling the loops. Before speculative 
execution, unrolling had a clear advantage.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Eric Korpela via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 11:06 AM
To: ben; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: OT? Upper limits of FSB

On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 3:01 PM ben via cctalk  wrote:

> I bet I/O loops throw every thing off.
>

Even worse than you might think.  For user mode code you've got at least
two context switches which are typically thousands of CPU cycles.  On the
plus side when you start waiting for I/O the CPU will execute another
context switch to resume running something else while waiting for the I/O
to complete.  By the time you get back to your process, it's likely
process memory may be at L3 or back in main memory.  Depending upon what
else is going on it might add 1 to 50 microseconds per I/O just for context
switching and reloading caches.

Of course in an embedded processor you can run in kernel mode and busy wait
if you want.

Even fast memory mapped I/O (i.e. PCIe graphics card) that doesn't trigger
a page fault is going to have variable latency and will probably have
special cache handling.


--
Eric Korpela
korp...@ssl.berkeley.edu
AST:7731^29u18e3


Re: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for

2019-01-09 Thread dwight via cctalk
Recently, in the calculator group, a fellow has an older calculator and was 
using the power function. You know x^y. He'd put in 2^2 and got 3.8 or 
something where the last digit was 2 off. He was worried that the calculator 
was bad. I explained to him that the calculator was fine. It was simply a 
rounding error. I explained that the calculator was not doing 2*2 and that it 
used some series or such to calculate the general case. Most calculators today 
have about 2 extra bits not shown to hide most rounding errors. Early 
calculators didn't have any extra digits.
The Intel case was actually worse as its errors were often large and not just 
in the last digits, when they happened. The errors tended to cluster around odd 
integer values as well. When looking at all the possible numbers, the odds were 
small. When looking at integer values the odds were a lot larger and the errors 
were also larger.
Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Paul Koning via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 5:49 AM
To: Tony Duell; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for



> On Jan 8, 2019, at 11:58 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk  
> wrote:
>
> ...
> IIRC one of the manuals for the HP15C had a chapter on 'Why this
> calculator gives the wrong answers'. It covered things like rounding
> errors.
>
> -tony

That reminds me of a nice old quote.

"An electronic pocket calculator when used by a person unconversant with it 
will most probably give a wrong answer in 9 decimal places" -- Dr. Anand 
Prakash, 9 May 1975

Understanding rounding errors is perhaps the most significant part of 
"numerical methods", a subdivision of computer science not as widely known as 
it should be.  I remember learning of the work of a scientist at DEC whose work 
was all about this: making the DEC math libraries not only efficient but 
accurate to the last bit.  Apparently this isn't anywhere near as common as it 
should be.  And I wonder how many computer models are used for answering 
important questions where the answers are significantly affected by numerical 
errors.  Do the authors of those models know about these considerations?  
Maybe.  Do the users of those models know?  Probably not.

paul



Re: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for

2019-01-08 Thread dwight via cctalk
There is an algorithm to calculate any digit of PI as long as it is in HEX ( or 
base 16 ). So far no one has been able to do this in a decimal system. It would 
seem that out binary computers were close to right in the first place.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk 
Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2019 4:21 PM
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk
Subject: Re: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for

On 1/8/19 3:04 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> But, using a crude code of 'A' = 1, 'B' = 2, 'C' = 3, etc.
> "ELGAR" appears in PI at decimal digits 7608455

I suspect that Pi, to a sufficient number of places could decode
anyone's surname.

No, I'm thinking of "Nimrod"...

--Chuck



Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs

2019-01-08 Thread dwight via cctalk
To Tell you the truth, I can't think of anything other than speed of 
calculating that should be done in floating point. The speed is because we've 
determined to waste silicon for floating point when we should really be using 
combined operation in integer that are designed to handle multiple arrays( and 
matices ), addition, multiplication and scaling as single instructions. If we 
had these operations, there would be little need for floating point. These 
would also do delayed operations that would wait for combining thing until the 
results were actually needed. This way things that the scaling wouldn't make 
sense could hold off until combining them actually made sense.
Of course, making floating point a decimal operation is silly.
Dwight

From: cctalk  on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 

Sent: Monday, January 7, 2019 12:52 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs

>> Few people (but most are right here) can recite PI to enough digits to
>> reach the level of inaccuracy.   And those who believe that PI is exactly
>> 22/7 are unaffected by FDIV.   (YES, some schools do still teach that!)

On Mon, 7 Jan 2019, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk wrote:
> Why remember the digits, when a small program can provide them?
>
>  +0un qn"E20Un' 0Uh 0uv HK
>  Qn  Qi<\+2*10+(Qq*qi)Ua 0LK Qi*2-1Uj Qa/QjUq Qa-(Qq*Qj)-2\10I$ Qi-1ui>
>  Qq/10Ut Qh+Qt+48Uw Qw-58"E48Uw %v' Qv"N:Qv,1^T' QwUv Qq-(Qt*10)Uh>
>  :Qv,1^T
>  !Can you figure out what this macro does before running it?  It was
>  written by Stan Rabinowitz with modifications by Mark Bramhall and
>  appeared as the Macro of the Month in the Nov. 1977 issue of the TECO
>  SIG newsletter, the "Moby Munger".  For information on the TECO Special
>  Interest Group, write to Stan at P.O. Box 76, Maynard, Mass. 01754!

Interesting bit!


> Why remember the digits, when a small program can provide them?

Maybe, because remembering the first 80 or 90 digits is half as much work
to remember or type in, as that macro.


The current state of computer "science" "education" fails to even get the
students to understand that floating point is a rounded off approximation.
FDIV merely added a small unexpected further degradation to a
representation that was already inaccurate, and was explicitly an
approximation.
They often represent a dollar and cents amount as floating point, just to
avoid figuring out how to insert the PERIOD delimiter.  Use of FDIV is
inappropriate for calculating sales tax.  NOT because of the FDIV errors,
which are well within the portion that will be discarded in roundoff.
It should not take until a third semester "Data Structures And Algorithms"
class, or beyond, for them to learn to not use floating point for cash
transaction processing.

People who use 3.1416 or 22/7 for PI are not in a position to gripe
as much as they did, about inaccuracies caused by FDIV.
The point was that people were screaming about errors that were already
irrelevant to the level of accuracy that they were using, in uses that
were explicitly NOT INTENDED to be exact.


I am building a base to make a patio table out of a CRASHED 24" RAMAC
platter, that had been banged around with no effort to store properly for
half a century.  (Is there a better use for a CRASHED platter?, or a
better way to display it than under glass as a rustic table top?)
Neither a value of 3.14 for PI, nor FDIV, will further degrade my level of
carpentry skills.
I'm considering printing out and including a copy of the RAMAC plaque
http://www.ed-thelen.org/RAMAC/RAMAC_Plaque_v40.pdf


Re: OT? Upper limits of FSB

2019-01-06 Thread dwight via cctalk
Probably the factor that most think limits thing is the turn-around time. If 
they were limited to one byte request and wait for that data to return, the 
limits of wires would be a wall. Today's serial RAMs send a burts of data 
rather than a word or byte at a time. These blocks of data can use multiple 
serial lanes at one time where the data bits aren't even exactly arriving at 
the same time. There are FIFOs and parallelizers that bring things back 
together. The latency of the first fetch is slower than it used to be for 
traditional fetches but after that things are quite quick. Surprisingly, this 
is actually good for older languages like Forth that are fugal with RAM. Entire 
applications ( less data in some cases ) can be in the CPU's cache for 
immediate use.
Dwight

From: cctalk  on behalf of Curious Marc via 
cctalk 
Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2019 9:40 PM
To: Jeffrey S. Worley; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: OT? Upper limits of FSB

Interconnects at 28Gb/s/lane have been out for a while now, supported by quite 
a few chips. 56Gb/s PAM4 is around the corner, and we run 100Gb/s in the lab 
right now. Just sayin’ ;-). That said, we throw in about every equalization 
trick we know of, PCB materials are getting quite exotic and connectors are 
pretty interesting. We have to hand hold our customers to design their 
interconnect traces and connector breakouts. And you can’t go too far, with 
increasing reliance on micro-twinax or on-board optics for longer distances and 
backplanes.
Marc

> On Jan 4, 2019, at 11:02 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk 
>  wrote:
>
> Apropos of nothing, I've been confuse for some time regarding maximum
> clock rates for local bus.
>
> My admittedly old information, which comes from the 3rd ed. of "High
> Performance Computer Architecture", a course I audited, indicates a
> maximum speed on the order of 1ghz for very very short trace lengths.
>
> Late model computers boast multi-hundred to multi gigahertz fsb's.  Am
> I wrong in thinking this is an aggregate of several serial lines
> running at 1 to 200mhz?  No straight answer has presented on searches
> online.
>
> So here's the question.  Is maximum fsb on standard, non-optical bus
> still limited to a maximum of a couple of hundred megahertz, or did
> something happen in the last decade or two that changed things
> dramatically?  I understand, at least think I do, that these
> ridiculously high frequency claims would not survive capacitance issues
> and RFI issues. When my brother claimed a 3.2ghz bus speed for his
> machine I just told him that was wrong, impossible for practical
> purposes, that it had to be an aggregate figure, a 'Pentium rating'
> sort of number rather than the actual clock speed.  I envision
> switching bus tech akin to present networking, paralleled to sidestep
> the limit while keeping pin and trace counts low.?  Something like
> the PCIe 'lane' scheme in present use?  This is surmise based on my own
> experience.
>
> When I was current, the way out of this limitation was fiber-optics for
> the bus.  This was used in supercomputing and allowed interconnects of
> longer length at ridiculous speeds.
>
> Thanks for allowing me to entertain this question.  Though it is not
> specifically a classic computer question, it does relate to development
> and history.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Technoid Mutant (Jeff Worley)
>
>
>
>
>


Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs

2019-01-04 Thread dwight via cctalk
May ability to understand these papers is somewhat limited. If I understand 
correctly the following.
Most divide routines that I've seen allow the remainder to be 1,0,-1 relative 
to the normal remainder. The answer will converge as the error of the remainder 
never leaves this range.
In the case of the pentium, the remainder is 2,1,0,-1,-2. This allows the 
division to converge on the answer quicker. The error was that if the remainder 
was right on one edge it would eventually fall of the edge and not converge. 
From the paper, that would be the 5 1's in a row, of the divisor.
At least that is my understanding. It is to early in the morning for me.
Dwight


From: Eric Smith 
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 11:55 PM
To: dwight; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs

And the original analysis paper, "It Takes Six Ones to Reach a Flaw":
http://www.acsel-lab.com/arithmetic/arith12/papers/ARITH12_Coe.pdf



Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs

2019-01-02 Thread dwight via cctalk
I believe that is the one. Intel tried to say it wasn't an issue until it was 
shown that the error was significant when using floating point numbers near 
integer values. I suspect that the fellow that forgot to include the mask file 
for that ROM got a bad review.
Dwight


From: Eric Smith 
Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 3:42 PM
To: dwight; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs

On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 4:12 PM dwight via cctalk 
mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
I  thought I'd note that the divide problem couldn't have been patched with a 
micro code patch.

If you're talking about the Pentium FDIV bug, present on the early 80501 chips 
(60 and 66 MHz) and 80502 chips (75, 90, and 100 MHz), they weren't able to fix 
that with a microcode patch. They actually issued a recall for those chips.

However, Intel has successfully fixed other bugs using microcode patches, 
including some but not all of the recent speculative execution side channel 
problems (Meltdown and Spectre). They have also used microcode patches to 
disable instructions that were broken and couldn't be fixed by microcode, 
including the TSX-NI instructions of some Haswell, broadwell, and Skylake CPUs.




Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs

2019-01-02 Thread dwight via cctalk
I  thought I'd note that the divide problem couldn't have been patched with a 
micro code patch. It was because one of the ROM arrays used as part of the 
divide lookup was missing its data. It would have been much more than a simple 
patch to fix. It would have had to go back to a full subroutine patch.
Today's processors are still memory bound for speed, even with local cache. It 
is mostly poor coding from the compilers for instruction cache issue but data 
is also a problem as larger memory addressing has made it so that cache misses 
are more common.
Some of the instruction misses are helped by pipe depth but misses become more 
of an issue as one has a deeper pipe. Again, it is the current compilers that 
often make larger pipe depth impractical. It was this that made the need for 
speculative execution necessary. This was the cause of all security issues of 
late.
In any case, it all comes back to memory latency. All the tricks to minimize 
its effect have caused other issues. It is still the biggest single issue 
blocking higher speed processors.
The 5 GHz wall is also there but is being fudged around by minimizing the 
active circuits at any one time.  It buys a little but don't expect to see 10 
GHz processors any time soon on silicon.
Dwight

From: cctalk  on behalf of Diane Bruce via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 12:09 PM
To: Paul Koning; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs

On Wed, Jan 02, 2019 at 02:37:44PM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>
>
> > On Jan 2, 2019, at 2:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> > wrote:
> >
> > On 1/2/19 10:44 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
> >
> >> Also, recall that there are different forms of micro-code: horizontal
> >> and vertical.  I think that IBM (in the S/360, S/370, S/390, z/Series)
> >> uses the term micro-code for horizontal micro-code and millicode
> >> for vertical microcode.
> >
> > On the CDC STAR-100, "microcode" as such was a relatively recent concept
> > and the designers went overboard, mostly because of an ill-defined
> > customer base (hence, BCD and other commerical-class instructions, like
> > translate, edit and mark, etc.).  The STAR is basically a RISC-type
> > vector architecture with a pile of microcoded instructions bolted on.
> > ...
> > For a compiler writer, or even an assembly coder, this was more of a
> > problem--which combination of instructions could be used to the greatest
> > effect?  And why do I have to have the hardware manual on my desk to
> > look up instructions?
>
> That reminds me of the Motorola 68040.  I used that at DEC in a high speed 
> switch (DECswitch 900 -- FDDI to 6 Ethernet ports).  When studying the 
> instruction timings, I realized there is a "RISC subset" of the instructions 
> that run fast, a cycle or so per instruction.  But the more complex 
> instructions are much slower.  So the conclusion for a fastpath writer is to 
> use the RISC subset and pretend the fancy addressing mode instructions do not 
> exist.


Which then reminds me further of the Coldfire processor which
*did* remove the more complex instructions from the chip!


>
>paul
>

Diane
--
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db


Re: OCR old software listing

2018-12-31 Thread dwight via cctalk
Fred is right, OCR is only worth it if the document is in perfect condition. I 
just finish getting an old 4004 listing working. I made only two mistakes on 
the 4K of code that were not the fault of the poorness of the listing. Twice I 
put LDM instead of LD. LDM was the most commonly used.
There were still some 15 or so other errors do to the printing. It looked to be 
done on a ASR33 with poor registration of the print drum. Cs and 0s were often 
missing the right 1/3. Expecting an OCR to do much would have been a folly. 
Even though some 85% to 90% could be read properly. It took be about 3 weeks of 
evenings to make heads or tails of the code. I've finally got it running 
correctly.
If it had been done with an OCR, many cases it would have simply put a C 
instead of a 0. I'd have had to go through the listing, checking each C to make 
sure it was right. It is easier in many cases to have analysed what I could see 
and make a judgement, based on what I could see and the general context as I 
was typing it in.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 

Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:46 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: OCR old software listing

On Mon, 31 Dec 2018, Larry Kraemer via cctalk wrote:
> I used the libtiff-tools (Debian 8.x - 32 Bit) to extract all 61 .TIF's
> from the Multipage .tif file.  While the .tif's look descent, and
> RasterVect shows the .tif properties to be Group 4 Fax (1bpp) with 5100
> x 6600 pixels - 300 DPI, I can't get tesseract 3.x, TextBridge Classic
> 2.0, or Irfanview with KADMOS Plugin to OCR any of the .tif files, with
> descent results.  I'd expect an OCR of 85 to 90 % correct conversion to
> ASCII text.

Software listings need more accuraacy than that.
How many wrong characters does it take for a program not to work?
"desCent" isn't good enough.

85 to 90 % correct is a character wrong in every 6 to 10 characters.
How many errors is that PER LINE?

"But, you can start with that, and just fix the errors, without retyping
the rest."  Doing it that way is a desCent into madness.
BTDT.  wore out the T-shirts.


A competent typist can retype the whole thing faster than fixing an error
in every six to ten characters.
Only if there is less than one error for every several hundred characters
does "patching it" save time for a competent typist.
In general, for a competent typist, the fastest way to reposition the
cursor to the next error in the line is to simply hit the keys of the
intervening letters.
It is NOT to move the cursor with the mouse, then put your hand back on
the keys to type a character.
Using cursor motion keys is no faster for a competent typist than hitting
the keys of the letters toskip over.


TIP: display the OCR'ed text that is to be corrected in a font that
exaggerates the difference between zero and the letter 'O', and between
one and lower case 'l'.  There are some programs that will attempt to
select those based on context.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred  ci...@xenosoft.com


An interesting talk about Apollo Guidance Computer

2018-12-18 Thread dwight via cctalk
Carl talks about the restoration he is doing with the computer and some video 
cuts.
Carl has several complete videos on this web page as well.

https://youtu.be/3rz7gAOWVsI?t=3188

Dwight



Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #

2018-12-02 Thread dwight via cctalk
Having the sleeve to keep it from over rotating makes more sense when it has 
that dud pin. You don't want to bump that pin so it would have more relief. If 
you over rotated, you'd need another key with the dud pin in the new location. 
That would be a pain for doing each position with a new key.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of dwight via cctalk 

Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 6:33 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING 
LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #

The idea is not to pick it open but to make a key. Once you've rotated half way 
between two pins, you can remove the tool and measure the heights of the pins.
I like the idea of having a limiter sleeve on the outside to ride in the
slot.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 

Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 6:19 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING 
LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #

On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Fred is probably right but it would be fun to try a bump key on these.
> It would be a lot simpler to make. You just take a blank key and cut
> each pin location deep enough so when fully engaged it would push the
> pins in about 1/16 inch. Then grind the piece that locks in in until
> fully turned off. Then one would put some rubber washers on it so that
> it just lifts off the pins from the washers lifting it.
> One could most likely tension by hand but like Fred says, one could
> easily over shoot and then have to pick it again.

How about making it with two concentric tubes; one operating, and an outer
partial one that locks to the outer notch, with a slider between the
tubes, so that you are applying tension to the inner tube, but the outer
one limits you to not making it as far as the next pin position.

But, for use as an unlocking tool, you do need to turn more than one pin
position, often as much as 90 degrees.  So, though it would pick the lock,
you WOULD need to repeat.


Please let us know how it goes!


I'm a bit overdue on machining a better version of the conventional one -
calibrated pin positions, better adjustment of resistance including
solid locking of them, including being able to work with and without
detents at the standard cut depths.


Lack of necessity is the mother of procrastination!


Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #

2018-12-02 Thread dwight via cctalk
The idea is not to pick it open but to make a key. Once you've rotated half way 
between two pins, you can remove the tool and measure the heights of the pins.
I like the idea of having a limiter sleeve on the outside to ride in the
slot.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 

Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 6:19 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING 
LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #

On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Fred is probably right but it would be fun to try a bump key on these.
> It would be a lot simpler to make. You just take a blank key and cut
> each pin location deep enough so when fully engaged it would push the
> pins in about 1/16 inch. Then grind the piece that locks in in until
> fully turned off. Then one would put some rubber washers on it so that
> it just lifts off the pins from the washers lifting it.
> One could most likely tension by hand but like Fred says, one could
> easily over shoot and then have to pick it again.

How about making it with two concentric tubes; one operating, and an outer
partial one that locks to the outer notch, with a slider between the
tubes, so that you are applying tension to the inner tube, but the outer
one limits you to not making it as far as the next pin position.

But, for use as an unlocking tool, you do need to turn more than one pin
position, often as much as 90 degrees.  So, though it would pick the lock,
you WOULD need to repeat.


Please let us know how it goes!


I'm a bit overdue on machining a better version of the conventional one -
calibrated pin positions, better adjustment of resistance including
solid locking of them, including being able to work with and without
detents at the standard cut depths.


Lack of necessity is the mother of procrastination!


Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #

2018-12-02 Thread dwight via cctalk
Fred is probably right but it would be fun to try a bump key on these. It would 
be a lot simpler to make. You just take a blank key and cut each pin location 
deep enough so when fully engaged it would push the pins in about 1/16 inch. 
Then grind the piece that locks in in until fully turned off. Then one would 
put some rubber washers on it so that it just lifts off the pins from the 
washers lifting it.
One could most likely tension by hand but like Fred says, one could easily over 
shoot and then have to pick it again.
Dwight

From: cctalk  on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 

Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 3:57 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR 
FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #

The Chicago Ace (tubular) lock is USUALLY easier to pick (with the right
tension wrench), since you have access to all of the pins, without having
to reach past a pin to get to another.

The commercial tools are just a tube with slots and sliders, with variable
friction.  Almost trivial to make your own (as I did in High School),
although a well machined one will be a joy to use.
As such, sometimes just sliding that into the lock (WITH THE
RIGHT AMOUNT OF TORQUE) will get each pin to stop when it aligns.

Bumping seems more hassle for this.
As Dwight mentioned, picking or bumping without a pick tool that stays
aligned with the pins (like the commercial ones), opens up the additional
possibility of pins then coming back up and entering some other pin's
chamber.

The commercial tool ALSO leaves the sliders in position, so you can
"duplicate" a key from it.  OR measure/read out positions to decode.
If you add calibrations to the commercial tool, then you can use it as a
temporary key for anything for which you already have the code (suc as
XX2247!)



On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote:

> Looking at how things work, there is a new method used to pick locks that 
> works a little to well. It is a thing called a bump key. To make one for this 
> cylinder lock would be tricky. Still, it could be done.
> The principle is that you bounce the tumbler pins in, while holding light 
> tension. The inertia of the pins pushes the pins in. As they return, the tend 
> to catch were the would normally turn.
> I've seen one on the web demonstrated. They are quite remarkable as to how 
> easy they work. ( way too easy )
> The idea of making one for your lock is to allow the cylinder to only turn 
> part way between pin angles. Once it has rotated that much, you can then 
> measure the pin depth and make the key.
> You could make one from a blank key and use a rubber washer to improve the 
> action. You'd remove the piece that holds the key in the lock and make a 
> holder block that would allow a partial turn so that it would stop, at the 
> right angle, between locations to make measurements for the new key.
> It is not the traditional picking method but having seen it in action makes 
> traditional feeling the pins obsolete.
> Dwight
>
> 
> From: cctalk  on behalf of ED SHARPE via 
> cctalk 
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 6:07 PM
> To: gu...@optusnet.com.au; cctalk@classiccmp.org; cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND 
> KEY #
>
> Yikes  and I  am complaining   about  trying to pick the  lock on the UNIVAC 
> 422  anyone  have a  key #   for it? That  type on that  8S looks   tough...
>
>
> Ed# www.smecc.org<http://www.smecc.org>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/30/2018 6:53:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
> cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:
>
>
> And now, back to machining a lock pick for a PDP-8/S front panel cylinder 
> lock.
>
> http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm#locks


Re: WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #

2018-12-02 Thread dwight via cctalk
Looking at how things work, there is a new method used to pick locks that works 
a little to well. It is a thing called a bump key. To make one for this 
cylinder lock would be tricky. Still, it could be done.
The principle is that you bounce the tumbler pins in, while holding light 
tension. The inertia of the pins pushes the pins in. As they return, the tend 
to catch were the would normally turn.
I've seen one on the web demonstrated. They are quite remarkable as to how easy 
they work. ( way too easy )
The idea of making one for your lock is to allow the cylinder to only turn part 
way between pin angles. Once it has rotated that much, you can then measure the 
pin depth and make the key.
You could make one from a blank key and use a rubber washer to improve the 
action. You'd remove the piece that holds the key in the lock and make a holder 
block that would allow a partial turn so that it would stop, at the right 
angle, between locations to make measurements for the new key.
It is not the traditional picking method but having seen it in action makes 
traditional feeling the pins obsolete.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk 

Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 6:07 PM
To: gu...@optusnet.com.au; cctalk@classiccmp.org; cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND 
KEY #

Yikes  and I  am complaining   about  trying to pick the  lock on the UNIVAC 
422  anyone  have a  key #   for it? That  type on that  8S looks   tough...


Ed# www.smecc.org


In a message dated 11/30/2018 6:53:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:


And now, back to machining a lock pick for a PDP-8/S front panel cylinder lock.

http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm#locks


Re: Teletype cheap

2018-11-24 Thread dwight via cctalk
I wonder if anyone made a 3d printer file for a 33 chad box?
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of steve shumaker via 
cctalk 
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 11:39 AM
To: W2HX; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Teletype cheap

Thanks for the source!  I shall inquire...

Steve

On 11/22/2018 8:41 AM, W2HX wrote:
> The guru of ASR33s is WAYNE KB1FDW, teletypepa...@comcast.net sales, repairs, 
> advice.
>
>
> 73 Eugene W2HX
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve 
> shumaker via cctalk
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 6:16 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Teletype cheap
>
> It lives!!
>
> Retrieved the EPay ASR33 over the weekend.   Unit described as "As is -
> for parts" turned out to be almost completely intact school surplus unit
> stored inside somewhere in Orange county since removed from service in
> mid 80s (professionally maintained w service tag dated 1984).  Realized
> as soon as I saw it up close that it was in far better shape than expected.
>
> Plastic parts have three minor breaks not immediately visible and
> probably reparable
> Case parts missing:  chad box, tape punch cover; copy tray
> Internally, seems completely intact except for 2 of the 4 gold pins in
> the tape reader along with their springs
> Keyboard cover has 2 plastic pins broken but unit stays in place and
> keys move correctly except for the space bar which doesn't return when
> pressed.  Keys are worn but in fairly good shape although two are cracked.
>
> Weird comms setup.  Although from my reading it sounds as there was no
> standard, this one doesn't match anything I've found in the hobbyist lit
> so far:  Neither plug 2 nor the terminal strip are in use at all
> (terminal strip only has pos 1 and 2 in use for power).  Unit has two
> external cables that appear original since they both have the same
> thread style cable ties in use in the internal wire harness. One cable
> ends in a molex plug and the other in a small  "centronics" style plug.
> Wires for the centronics style connector terminate in plug 1 and 3.
> Another (related?) anomaly:  the large resistor associated with the
> current loop setup isn't present.
>
> So, inspected everything, as recommended here, replaced the print hammer
> pad, checked caps and all fuses.  Motor turned freely by hand when
> gently pushed. Plugged it in, turned it on to local and it fired right
> up.  All keyboard functions appear to work.
>
> Questions:
> Anyone recognize the cabling setup?
> Are the missing gold colored double pins in the tape reader replaceable?
> What sort of adhesive works for cracks in the cover
>
> under the hood photos here for the curious:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/endqTANG3mZgWG3q8
>
>
> Steve
>
> On 10/26/2018 7:39 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote:
>> OK, got it.  Will be my first one. Now, how does one transport the
>> thing?   Does it easily come off the pedestal?   Can it be laid on
>> it's back?  Anything need to be secured before it gets moved?
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> n 10/24/2018 6:56 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-Machine-Model-3320-3WA-Teletypewriter-AS-IS-FOR-PARTS-local-pick-up/142981290439?hash=item214a5959c7:g:UXoAAOSwmXJbylEN:rk:6:pf:1=true
>>>
>>>
>>> b
>>>
>>



Re: What is windoes doing?

2018-11-20 Thread dwight via cctalk
Great Todd. That is just what I'm looking for. It makes sense that it would 
keep track. I have two different ftdi chips that I'm using so I can see how it 
got messed up.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Todd Goodman via 
cctalk 
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 5:43 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: What is windoes doing?


On 11/19/2018 11:34 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use a 
> fixed com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in use) 
> tags on some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the com ports 
> but recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to modify my program to 
> use another com port. How does one unuse a com port? how do I find out what 
> is using it so I can stop it? I'm using windows 7 professional. Has anyone 
> else had this problem?
> Dwight
>
Windows "remembers" com ports of USB devices based on the VID/PID of the
USB device.

This allows the same device (USB com port) to get the same COM
assignment but means you end up with a ton of useless COM port
reservations when you're using a large number of different USB COM devices.

Something like
https://superuser.com/questions/408976/how-do-i-clean-up-com-ports-in-use
has instructions for removing them in Windows 7.

I could have sworn I just uninstalled them from Device Manager but I
forget now as it was a while ago.

Todd



Re: What is windoes doing?

2018-11-19 Thread dwight via cctalk
Actually, I do use it almost exclusively with classic machines. I use the RS232 
to load and talk to my Nicolet 1080 ( a late 1960s to early 1970 ) machine. I 
just got done using it to repair a North * Horizon. If I'm leaving trails 
behind me that I can't get rid of, each time I use it as a terminal, I'll be 
limited on what repairs I can do.
The FTDI was just recently used to write and debug code on a small controller 
board to convert a ps/2 keyboard to parallel for my Poly88.
Windows is not the end use. I don't even put it directly on the web. It is 
primarily used a data transfer, some editing and terminal for classic machines. 
Its functioning is important for maintaining and restoring classic machines.
This was not a typical " please help me fix my PC " post. I don't email, web 
search or anything else with this machine. Its one purpose is related to 
restoring and maintaining classic machines. It is no more off topic than a new 
temperature controlled soldering iron is. What would I use serial and RS232 for?
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Peter Coghlan via 
cctalk 
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 10:35 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: What is windoes doing?

>
> I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use a
> fixed com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in use)
> tags on some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the com
> ports but recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to modify my
> program to use another com port. How does one unuse a com port? how do I
> find out what is using it so I can stop it? I'm using windows 7
> professional. Has anyone else had this problem?
> Dwight

This list is my refuge from "windoes" and USB.  Can we please not do this here?

If the query related to writing an emulator for a classic system on Windows
with USB device attachment, I think I could cope but this needs to be stated.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.



Re: What is windoes doing?

2018-11-19 Thread dwight via cctalk
Hi Ethan
 That is entirely possible. I do think about it when I plug and unplug the USB 
floppy drive but not usually for the serial.
Is there a way to finish them or maybe stick things in so that I can "safely 
remove" things? Most of the time for serial, I use a FTDI but I do have some 
older USB to RS232 voltage converters as well.
Dwight


From: et...@757.org 
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:41 AM
To: dwight; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: What is windoes doing?

> I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use a
> fixed com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in
> use) tags on some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the
> com ports but recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to
> modify my program to use another com port. How does one unuse a com
> port? how do I find out what is using it so I can stop it? I'm using
> windows 7 professional. Has anyone else had this problem? Dwight

Do you unplug the USB to Serial dongle with a terminal program open?

 - Ethan



What is windoes doing?

2018-11-19 Thread dwight via cctalk
I have a question. I use the USB port for serial. In my program, I use a fixed 
com port. When going to the control panel, I find that I see (in use) tags on 
some of the com ports. I'm the only one currently using the com ports but 
recently another (in use) showed up, requiring me to modify my program to use 
another com port. How does one unuse a com port? how do I find out what is 
using it so I can stop it? I'm using windows 7 professional. Has anyone else 
had this problem?
Dwight




Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

2018-11-10 Thread dwight via cctalk
If the pulley diameter was 19.0mm, the new pulley would be exactly 22.8mm. It 
is a simple ratio problem. The motors rotation is synchronous to the line 
frequency. It turns 50/60 too slow. To speed it up is 6/5. The speed of the 
belt is proportional to the radius of the pulleys.
If it was a crowned belt, a fine tune can be done with the tension of the belt. 
A tighter belt will run a little slower because most of it rides lower on the 
pulley. The tension on the belt is the same everywhere, not counting bearing 
and drag on the disk. This means the effective rate is determined, mainly, by 
the where the belt rides on the pulley.
Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk 
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 12:38 PM
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk
Subject: Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

On 11/10/18 12:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> He needs a larger pulley if going from 60 to 50 ( as a motor pulley
>>> ). It needs to be 20% bigger because the motor turns slower on 50 Hz.
>>> 6/5 to be exact.
> On Sat, 10 Nov 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> No argument there--but the size increment is pretty small.  Consider
>> that a typical motor pulley is about 19 mm in diameter, so a 20%
>> increase would be only about 23 mm.
>
> Depending on the drive, WHICH pulley should be changed?

The motor drive pulley is the easiest.  You might even find a ready-made
one in an engineering findings catalog.

Alternatively, consider this YT video for a DIY frequency changer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEiUt56elAw

--Chuck



Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

2018-11-10 Thread dwight via cctalk
He needs a larger pulley if going from 60 to 50 ( as a motor pulley ). It needs 
to be 20% bigger because the motor turns slower on 50 Hz. 6/5 to be exact.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk 
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 8:32 AM
To: dwight via cctalk
Subject: Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

On 11/10/18 7:55 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Typically, both the motor pulley and belt are changed as a set to keep the 
> distance from motor to flywheel the same.
> In my younger days, a friend and I ground down a motor pulley, on a 50 Hz 
> Shugart 800, to be a 60 Hz. We used a file while the motor ran. After getting 
> the right size, we had to file mounting holes for the motor to keep the same 
> belt. It was not the best way but we couldn't afford a new drive and we got 
> the drive cheap, from surplus.
> If you change the flywheel, the distance will be to great to use the same 
> belt or even close to the same belt. It may not even fit in the area allowed 
> for the flywheel.
> According to the manual, for this drive, only the motor pulley needs to be 
> changed as there is enough adjustment to use the same belt.

I was gifted a brand-new Qume 842 220V 50Hz drive many years ago.   The
220V was no problem--I had a dual-primary transformer on the power
supply, so it could be reconfigured as a 240V autotransformer and still
have enough capability for the drive electronics.  The problem was the
60Hz line frequency.  Essentially, the motor turns somewhat faster, so
you need a smaller motor pulley.  I calculated what I needed and found a
flanged toothed pulley for a timing belt that was exactly the right
size.  While the original motor pulley was crowned, the timing pulley
worked exactly as calculated.  It was not necessary to change the drive
belt--the size difference was small enough that it could be swamped out
by loosening the motor mounting bolts and adjusting.

I still have the drive today--and it still works.

--Chuck



Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

2018-11-10 Thread dwight via cctalk
Typically, both the motor pulley and belt are changed as a set to keep the 
distance from motor to flywheel the same.
In my younger days, a friend and I ground down a motor pulley, on a 50 Hz 
Shugart 800, to be a 60 Hz. We used a file while the motor ran. After getting 
the right size, we had to file mounting holes for the motor to keep the same 
belt. It was not the best way but we couldn't afford a new drive and we got the 
drive cheap, from surplus.
If you change the flywheel, the distance will be to great to use the same belt 
or even close to the same belt. It may not even fit in the area allowed for the 
flywheel.
According to the manual, for this drive, only the motor pulley needs to be 
changed as there is enough adjustment to use the same belt.
Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Guy Dunphy via cctalk 

Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 6:19 AM
To: Riesen Thomas; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

Ok. Those are quite small. So you have one? Or those are not yours?
If you have one, and a way to accurately measure it, making more will be easy 
for anyone with a lathe.
I could do it, but surely you can find a machinist closer to home?

Guy

At 01:03 PM 10/11/2018 +, Riesen Thomas wrote:
>Guy,
>I am looking for small motor pulley ... see pic ...
>Regards
>Thomas
>
>-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
>Von: Guy Dunphy [mailto:gu...@optusnet.com.au]
>Gesendet: Samstag, 10. November 2018 13:25
>An: Riesen Thomas ; General Discussion: On-Topic and 
>Off-Topic Posts 
>Betreff: Re: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B
>
>At 12:03 PM 10/11/2018 +, you wrote:
>>Hi all
>>
>>Any suggestions where to find two 50Hz-Pulleys for the 8" Floppy drive
>>Mitsubishi M2894-63B?
>>
>>If there also the appropriate ribbon gummies available, I would be very
>>happy.
>>
>>Regards
>>Thomas
>
>
>Do you know what they look like, and the dimensions?
>Because I have these. http://everist.org/pics/misc/IMG_1655_pulley_800.jpg
>
>_Maybe_ they were off Mitsubishi drives, not sure. Had them in a box of floppy 
>drive related bits for a lng time, and have no recollection of where they 
>came from.
>These are 49.0 mm OD, hole 4.7 mm dia. And this is Australia, with 50Hz mains.
>
>Guy
>
>
>Attachment Converted: "f:\email\attach\Pully_8Zoll_02.jpg"
>
>Attachment Converted: "f:\email\attach\Pully_8Zoll_01.jpg"
>


Re: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs.

2018-11-04 Thread dwight via cctalk
I was curious. It would seem that it would be easy enough to make an emulator 
or simulator for but the OCR is really bad.
There may be one out there. It would be a shame if yours was the last one.
Dwight


From: ED SHARPE 
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2018 9:00 AM
To: dkel...@hotmail.com; cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With 
SN of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs.

there  are   2  manuals  one is the   art   versionthe other one  is a  
programmers  one  but  theocr is   horrible  towards  end.  I  think  there 
  are  one or  2  more things  around  here  too.

There  must  have been  some of  these units that  survived? aside  from ours?


Ed#



In a message dated 11/3/2018 9:17:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
dkel...@hotmail.com writes:

These sound really cool but I suspect the number of people with a Univac 422 
are quite limited. Even those with Univac panel of any kind are quite limited.
I see the web page has a OCR of the text. A photo copy of the manual would be 
great as well.
Dwight


From: cctalk mailto:boun...@classiccmp.org>> on 
behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk 
mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>>
Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2018 2:19 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org; 
cct...@classiccmp.org; 
direc...@smecc.org; 
couryho...@aol.com
Subject: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN 
of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs.

NOW FORMING - -UNIVAC 422 User Group and  including  The  422 and  the prior 
UNIVAC DIGITAL TRAINER  - (Is there a  code compatibility?)

Please drop us a note off list  With SN of your unit and stats of if able to  
operate and completeness and go withs. Include a  pic  of  you and  your  unit 
if  you   want to appear in 1st  newsletter.


Thanks  Ed Sharpe  Newsletter editor


Re: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs.

2018-11-03 Thread dwight via cctalk
These sound really cool but I suspect the number of people with a Univac 422 
are quite limited. Even those with Univac panel of any kind are quite limited.
I see the web page has a OCR of the text. A photo copy of the manual would be 
great as well.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk 

Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2018 2:19 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org; cct...@classiccmp.org; direc...@smecc.org; 
couryho...@aol.com
Subject: UNIVAC 422 User Grouop Forming Please drop us a note offlist With SN 
of your unit and stats of operability and completeness and go withs.

NOW FORMING - -UNIVAC 422 User Group and  including  The  422 and  the prior 
UNIVAC DIGITAL TRAINER  - (Is there a  code compatibility?)

Please drop us a note off list  With SN of your unit and stats of if able to  
operate and completeness and go withs. Include a  pic  of  you and  your  unit 
if  you   want to appear in 1st  newsletter.


Thanks  Ed Sharpe  Newsletter editor


Re: behaviour of classic PDP-8 frontpanel

2018-10-30 Thread dwight via cctalk
My  Nicolet did the same thing it would load 0 into the intended start location 
( on my machine it was a jump to 0 ).

The front panel worked fine otherwise. It turned out to be some missing clocks 
because of a bad 7474. Strange that a common problem on different machine 
created by completely different issue but all writing 0 back to core.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Paul Koning via 
cctalk 
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 10:01:29 AM
To: Klemens Krause; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: behaviour of classic PDP-8 frontpanel



> On Oct 30, 2018, at 11:07 AM, Klemens Krause via cctalk 
>  wrote:
>
> Is there anybody out with a working classic PDP-8?
>
> For a long time we had the problem, that starting a program on our 8 by 
> pressing   keys, this program crashed. Examining the memory 
> contents showed, that typically one or two words short behind the starting 
> adress after such a crash had inadvertently content .
> For a long time I suspected a subtle memory problem. But now after carfully 
> having revised the memory timing I hopefully found the real reason for this 
> nasty misbehaviour:
> if the machine is running and I press the  key, it stops and
> there is also the chance, that one word in memory is nullified.
> A look in the maintenance manual shows, that pressing  clears the 
> memory data register and others asynchronously. Naturally if this occours in 
> the moment, when a memory read is in progress, data from core has been 
> transfered to memory data register, which clears the word just have been red, 
> and before the memory timing chain was able to write this word back to 
> memory, then this word is cleared out.

Interesting.  I know another machine that has a similar behavior, which was 
actually considered a feature.  That is the CDC 6000 series.  Its peripheral 
processors do the read-restore cycle of memory as part of the operation of the 
execution pipeline, rather than with a dedicated data path.  PPUs always run 
(there is no "halt" operation).  When you press the boot ("deadstart") button, 
that forces a specific address into the program counter register.  That happens 
at a pipeline state between the instruction fetch and the memory restore cycle, 
so while the restore write is done, it goes to the fixed address rather than to 
the address that was just read.  The result is that a PPU memory dump tells you 
where the PC pointed, if you are lucky enough to find a zero in the code 
section of memory that doesn't belong there.  Since PP dumps only give you 
memory (no registers) this actually matters for debugging.

This feature was known as system programmer lore but not documented.  Analyzing 
the block diagrams carefully would show it, though, and a VHDL model makes it 
crystal clear.

paul



Re: Aphorism (Was: Computers that never crash (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen)

2018-10-23 Thread dwight via cctalk
I had an Ultra Sparc machine that ran continuously for more than 5 years except 
for maybe 2 power outages and a couple time to vacuum it out. The only failure 
was one day the disk drive let out a stream of smoke. It was a tantalum 
capacitor. It burned the board. IT was going to give me a new drive. I said, " 
No Way". I had a lot of data on that disk. I asked for one of their failing 
disk, unsoldered the matching capacitor, scraped the carbonized PC board of and 
soldered the replacement capacitor in. It ran until I was force to give up the 
machine when we moved buildings.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 

Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 11:01:42 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Aphorism (Was: Computers that never crash (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen)

On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> "If it doesn't crash, you're not running a sufficiently varied and
> demanding workload."

Are rights available for wall plaques, T-shirts, and bumper stickers?





Re: Apple IIe addendum

2018-10-14 Thread dwight via cctalk
These machines used at least two different key switches, that I've seen. I've 
been looking for a broken key switch and the one a friend had was different. 
Mine has a broken post on one key.

Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of drlegendre via cctalk 

Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2018 7:31:50 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Apple IIe addendum

Folks,

Yay, I was wrong! The IC seems to be OK, the issue was a stuck-on kb
switch. A quirk of the Apple design causes the last-pressed key to repeat
continuously if any key is being held 'on'.

That leaves me needing two kb switches and possibly one 'tilde' key. This
is the beige IIe kb with small black print.

Thanks for the space,
Bill


Re: BPK-72 or Bubble Memory Dummy Module + Seed Module

2018-10-09 Thread dwight via cctalk
CHM has these in their collection. Where are you located at? They don't look 
really complicated. I'd think one could make one if they had a schematic.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Josh via cctalk 

Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 9:42:22 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: WTB: BPK-72 or Bubble Memory Dummy Module + Seed Module

Currently working on restoring some bubble memories and I'm looking for
some modules originally included in Intel's BPK-72 development kit,
specifically the Dummy Load module and the Seed module.

http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/still-image/Intel/intel.dummy_seed_modules.102652232.lg.jpg

These are used for testing a bubble memory system as well as repairing
bubble modules which have had some sort of failure which requires manually
re-seeding them.

I have all the parts I need to work with the modules, I'm just missing
these parts. The manual shows the schematics, component values, and layouts
of both of these modules, so I can fabricate them myself if need be, but
wanted to see if anyone had them handy first.

Thank you again!

Josh


Re: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33

2018-09-25 Thread dwight via cctalk
Nicolet 1080 is 20 bit data but has 16 bit address space. No stack functions. 
It has a register called link but that is only a single bit carry. Subroutines 
use the first address to store the return, meaning they were not recursive 
without something to save the returns ( I think dec did this too but I'm not a 
dec person ).

20 bits was considered enough noise level to do ffts for NMR chemical analysis. 
The machine typically came with 12Kx20 core but one could add on another 12Kx20 
unit, even though the address size could access 64K. There were special DMA 
operations that only ran on the lower memory.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk 
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 9:21:55 AM
To: Christian Corti via cctalk
Subject: Re: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33

On 09/25/2018 08:45 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2018, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> How about some 22-bit or 13 bit architectures?
>
> How about our Dietz MINCAL 523? 19 bit architecture, memory is 20 bits
> with parity. Microprogrammed machine, microcode within normal address
> space, mixed twos-complement and sign-magnitude arithmetic. Completely
> reverse-engineered due to lack of information :-))
> 8K core memory, microcode and boot loader stored in foil ROMs (similar
> to wire rope ROMs).

I was wondering if anyone would rise to the challenge.  In fact, some
Harvard-architecture MCUs have unusual *instruction* word lengths.

I think the PB250 was 22/44 bits and, of course, there was a whole horde
of 36-bit mainframes, some extending well into the 1980s, as well as
other systems with multiples of 6 bit lengths.

How many of today's ISAs are *not* byte-addressable nor implement a
stack?  I'm somewhat curious as to how HLLs have influenced our thought
regarding architecture.

--Chuck



Re: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives

2018-09-21 Thread dwight via cctalk
I'd think a nice blast with a oxy-acetylene  torch should do what is needed. 
Even if it doesn't melt the disk, it will surely exceed the Currie point and 
all data is gone.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Jerry Weiss via 
cctalk 
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 2:49:30 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk 
drives

On 9/21/18 1:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Sep 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
>> That's way too good for these 

Re: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives

2018-09-21 Thread dwight via cctalk
All the molten lava is done. You could still smash it with a lava rock.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk 
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 11:36:25 AM
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk
Subject: Re: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk 
drives

Anyone headed for Hawaii?  It'd be interesting to see what some molten
lava would do to one...

--Chuck


Re: SAGE memory plane

2018-09-18 Thread dwight via cctalk
Its a shame it wasn't in the complete unit. Unless someone actually erases it, 
core memory will hold data until the sun swells up, as a red giant, and toast 
the earth.

One always wonders what one would find on these old cores.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Mike Loewen via 
cctalk 
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 9:10:21 PM
To: Al Kossow; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: SAGE memory plane

On Sun, 16 Sep 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/232927847019
>
> https://secretsofcoldwarradar.omeka.net/exhibits/show/cold-war-radar-technology/item/4
>
> can someone identify exactly what this box was called, when it was deployed,
> and what training manual they are referring to?

In the T.O. 
(http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/sage/3-32-0_Central_Computer_System_Vol1_Feb59.pdf),
that cabinet is called "core memory 1", or 256² ferrite core array". We  just
called it "Big Mem".  Here's a picture of the cabinet from McChord's
SAGE:

http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/BigMem.jpg

I'll have to look through my references to find out when it was deployed.
That training manual doesn't seem to be on Bitsavers.  :-)  It would be nice
to find it.

> we have a couple
> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102633198
>
> and they keep getting mis-identified.

I have one, as well:

http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/Coreplane-1L.jpg


Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/


Re: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project

2018-09-17 Thread dwight via cctalk
I had a problem with brick power supplies a number of years back. I found an 
issue that caused them to fail. I had about ten of them on the same power 
switch. You'd think this would not be an issue but it is.

You see it works like this, each one had a transformer in it. When you 
disconnect the power, with a switch, each of the transformers often has energy 
left in the cores. Normally for just one supply, this isn't an issue. When you 
have a bunch of these, only one supply absorbs all of the energy. When it does, 
it will blow some part of that supply up. On the ones I had, it'd take of the 
negative rail.

I put a MOV on the power rail and didn't have any more issues with power 
cycling.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Bill Degnan via 
cctalk 
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 12:07:22 PM
To: p.gebha...@ymail.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project

here is a photo of some of the failed regulators I have on hand that I have
pulled from production over the years:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DML8O8dW0AISX5m.jpg

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:05 PM Bill Degnan  wrote:

> H745's are harder to find.  I have at least one that needs service but I
> am located in the USA and I have no clear idea what's wrong with it.  Is it
> that you have zero h745's at all or you have a bad one?  Is there a typical
> point of failure for these?  If so, I'd try to track down a bad one and fix
> it. Probably a lot cheaper.
> b
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 2:54 PM P Gebhardt via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello Noel,
>>
>> thanks for your quick reply. There are indeed some DEC power brick models
>> on epay, but none regarding the H745.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Pierre
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > From: Pierre Gebhardt
>>
>> > two H745 bricks (delivering -15V) which are still missing. I'd be
>> very
>> > happy, if anybody could consider parting with one or two. Location
>> is
>> > in Germany.
>>
>> There should be some on eBait; mildly expensive, but if you get them from
>> the US, the shipping is going to be a fair amount anyway...
>>
>> Noel
>>
>


Re: Unknown US manufacturer - try again

2018-09-12 Thread dwight via cctalk
See 946 fairchild for pinout.

Dwight



From: cctech  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctech 
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 12:39:44 PM
To: Peter Van Peborgh via cctech
Subject: Re: Unknown US manufacturer - try again

I suspect that it's from a trainer of some sort.


Stewart-Warner quad 2-input NAND DTL stuff.  So probably not RCA.


--Chuck


Re: HP-2116 front panel lamps

2018-07-25 Thread dwight via cctalk
It might be worth saving the bases and buying "grain of wheat" lamps to rebuild 
the lights. I see ~70ma 6v lamps available. That sounds similar to the original 
specification.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Brent Hilpert via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 8:21:58 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: HP-2116 front panel lamps

On 2018-Jul-25, at 6:47 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018, it was written
>> Christian, when I was restoring the HP Computer Museum's 2116A I ordered a
>> bunch of these 345 bulbs from 1000bulbs.com - but it seems they no longer
>> stock them.
>>
>> I did find this listing though which looks current...
>> https://www.lighting-pros.com/eiko-345-t-1-3-4-midget-flanged-sx6s-case-of-1
>> 0
>>
>> They are around 0.04A current draw - not 0.75A!
>
> Yes, the Installation and Maintenance Manual on bitsavers 
> (02116-9153_2116B_Vol2_Oct70.pdf) contains several errors.
> Interesting enough, my printed copy of this manual from 1968 (that is 
> completely different from the 1970 one; it only has parts lists and 
> schematics, the chapters for installation and maintenance are simply not 
> there) is right: 2140-0035  6.3V 0.04A
>
> In the meantime I've ordered a bunch of JKL 345 from Mouser (60 Ecent/piece)


To mention, they are actually run below-spec in the processor, which of course 
improves longevity and reduces the heat next to the plastic front panel.

>From actual measurements in my 2116C the lamps (CM345) draw:
register-bit positions:   ~  31ma @ 4.1V
inside the push-buttons:  ~  36mA @ 5.4V

compared to the spec: 40mA @ 6V

( I obtained CM345s from Mouser in 2013.  "95 in stock", that would have left 
83 after my purchase).


Anyone in Europe with a North* Horizon or Advantage in working condition

2018-07-24 Thread dwight via cctalk
Hi

 I'm trying to assist Jeff with HxC to create a Gotek that can work with the 
North* hard sectored disk. It has been problematic because of timing 
constraints. Jeff has been working with several in the US but it is difficult 
to see what factors are important, working remotely.

Jeff is in Paris, France. It would be great if he could get hands on access to 
one of these machines for a month or so, that was operational.

Dwight



Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100...

2018-07-19 Thread dwight via cctalk
One thing that bothers me is the continued emphasis on arithmetic and not on 
mathematics. The kids growing up today will rarely be more than a few feet from 
a calculator. The first thing on the math test was the "No calculator allowed". 
I'm not saying that they shouldn't be taught arithmetic but it should be the 
minimum necessary to recreate a multiplication, square, divide or what ever 
table. Knowing what 43 * 67 is on an exam is useless in determining if the kid 
can learn calculus or understand how it relates to the real world.

About the hardest math a person might need to know how do do by themselves it 
to figure the tip at a restaurant. And even then, if the cell phone is charged 
it will do it for them.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Liam Proven via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 4:33:02 AM
To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100...

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 19:43, Peter Corlett via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> That's an extraordinary claim that sets off my bullshit detector. Snopes 
> offers
> this commentary: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/1895-exam/
>
> 50-100 years before you were at school would be roughly 1870-1920, which is
> right at the start of both state-provided schools and compulsory education. 
> The
> UK only raised the school leaving age to 11 in 1893. Truancy was rife, because
> parents still expected their children to work instead and contribute to the
> household. The average child was very poorly educated if at all.
>
> Children actually taking examinations at age 11 are already on the academic
> track for those who are both clever and rich enough to continue their 
> education
> further. It may even be the entrance exam for a posh public school. Your
> average working-class oik is never going to get anywhere near that exam paper.

It's a fair point, and one that did occur to me, but I didn't want to
be even _more_ prolix and hedge it about with disclaimers.

Yes, education for all is a relatively modern thing. In the days when
it was for the elite few, well, I suppose it *would* be more tailored
for the elite, and thus would be challenging to non-elite, even
generations later.

But I am nonetheless surprised at by just how much.

> For fun, have a crack at some of the recent exam papers given to 13 year olds
> hoping for a scholarship: https://www.etoncollege.com/KSpapers.aspx

... wow.

--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053


Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD?

2018-07-18 Thread dwight via cctalk
Hi Al

 I have a bunch of HaL stuff in my car. When and where do you want to meet? I 
have a number of HaL specific manuals an empty disk holder ( possibly for a CD 
ROM drive ) a disk drive of unknown source and a couple CD-ROMs One is the 
system and the other is the languages ( things like the HaL compiler, no 
license required ).

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of dwight via cctalk 

Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 12:06:59 PM
To: Al Kossow; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD?

I may be that the 300 required some special init sequence to the processor. It 
seems like I recall that it needed to do a scan to initialize a couple of 
values. This may make it not work on a Sparcstation 5. I don't recall if we 
shipped units with this problem or if they made a rev of the silicon before 
shipping???

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk 

Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 1:05:23 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD?

that would be great. I've not been able to get Jason's images to boot

I also got a Sparcstation 5 running Solaris 2.6 and have had no luck getting it 
to recognize the HAL boot drives.

Their is something odd about the drives, I've only been able to image one of 
the boot drives on a Linux machine
even though they boot fine.


On 7/11/18 11:12 AM, dwight wrote:
> Hi Al
>
>  I have a line on a CD and may be find some documents to go with it. A friend 
> has this and I hope to get a copy next
> week on Tues or Wed. Are you going to be at the Museum next week. I don't 
> know where you office is on the East bay side.
> It might be closer.
>
> Dwight
>
> 
> *From:* cctalk  on behalf of Al Kossow via 
> cctalk 
> *Sent:* Monday, July 9, 2018 1:34:24 PM
> *To:* cctalk@classiccmp.org
> *Subject:* Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD?
>
> cool, thanks!
>
> I don't currently have a Solaris box set up or I would have edited
> the password file, after dealing with finding an 80 to 50 pin adapter
> for the drive.
>
> On 7/9/18 1:31 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote:
>> Al - I made ISOs of the media I had before giving away my HALstations
>> in 2009.  I will email you directly with a link.
>



Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100...

2018-07-17 Thread dwight via cctalk
I still don't know for sure which way to do 8 inch compared to 5.25. I usually 
try to write both ways but soon forget which is which.

It won't do any good to tell me as I'll still forget. I just remember the 8 
inch drives were different.

Another good quiz question is where the index hole was on a 8 inch disk for the 
various flavors of 8 inch disk.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk 
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 7:28:19 PM
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk
Subject: Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100...

On 07/16/2018 06:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> On 8", notch is write protect; no notch is write enabled.
> on 5.25", notch is write enabled; no notch is write protected.
> I think that that justifies calling the 8" a "write protect notch", and
> calling the 5.25" a "write enable notch".
> Used 8" drives that I got sometimes had write-enable tabs in them that
> had fallen off.  Once out of the enclosure, you did not need tiny
> fingers to work on 8" drives.

Well, it's a matter of half-full/half-empty.  The 5.25" notch was always
called write-protect, so go figure.

I've got a few old 5.25" DSDD floppies with a very clover
adaptation--they use a little aluminum slider in the jacket so that one
doesn't have deal with finding sticky things for protection.

The placement of the 5.25" notch, under whatever terminology--on the
jacket *side* was very convenient.  It was possible to poll the sensor
to detect disk insertion/removal without the need for powering the
spindle motor.   I coded some stuff up in the late 70s for a "Put that
back!" alarm when the disk contained files open for writing.

I've got some 3M-branded 8" notched floppies that came with a strip of
transparent *red* stick-ons.   The result was that even when applied,
the disk to some drives was still write-protected.   Very frustrating
the first time encountered.

--Chuck


Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100...

2018-07-15 Thread dwight via cctalk
2.88 might be pushing the ability of a 72MHz processor. Also things like buffer 
size become an issue. For the Gotek, it is somewhat limited. One of the newer 
processors like the STM32F407, it might be possible. The Gotek uses an older 
generation processor that has limited resources. Also, the way the code is 
currently written, hard sectored is hard to do. Different encodings are not a 
big an issue as it uses transition timing and doesn't care how the data looks.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Dave Wade via cctalk 

Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2018 1:13:20 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org; 'Grant Taylor'
Subject: RE: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100...


> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via
> cctalk
> Sent: 15 July 2018 04:56
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100...
>
> On 07/14/2018 05:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > There are many more forgotten floppy formats than most realize--for
> > example, the Drivetec/Kodak 5.25" 2.8MB and 6MB formats.
>
> Wow.
>
> I had no idea that there was a 5¼" disk that held more than 1.2 MB.
>
> So much history that I'm sure is being lost to time.
>

Not sure the IBM 2.44/2.88 format has been forgotten, but I would like to see a 
GoTek emulator for it..


>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die





Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100...

2018-07-14 Thread dwight via cctalk
I understand that HxC has a hard sectored working on the Gotek for H89/H8. They 
are having issues with the timing restrictions for N* hard sectored.

I've thought some about modifying a Gotek to use on my Nicolet but after some 
thought, realized it would be much easier to use something like an arduino 
directly on the I/O bus and bypass the complication of sector pulses at the 
same time as data was being transferred.

It uses 32 hard sectored disk and writes continuous data over 16 sectors. It 
looks like it can be done but it is so much simpler to just send 20 bits as 
parallel data, as one word, rather then sending FM a bit at a time.

Dwight





From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk 
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 5:29:53 PM
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk
Subject: Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100...

On 07/14/2018 05:05 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Stringy Floppy is best forgotten.

Along with TI wafertape and similar nonsense.


Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD?

2018-07-12 Thread dwight via cctalk
Hi Al

So, do you still need the CD?

Also, my friend may have some manuals. I don't know if it is just Solaris stuff 
or HaL specific.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk 

Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 3:32:12 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD?




> I also got a Sparcstation 5 running Solaris 2.6 and have had no luck getting 
> it to recognize the HAL boot drives.

Operator error on my part, didn't know about "drvconfig" and "disks" since I've 
never used Solaris 2.x before.






Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD?

2018-07-12 Thread dwight via cctalk
I may be that the 300 required some special init sequence to the processor. It 
seems like I recall that it needed to do a scan to initialize a couple of 
values. This may make it not work on a Sparcstation 5. I don't recall if we 
shipped units with this problem or if they made a rev of the silicon before 
shipping???

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk 

Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 1:05:23 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD?

that would be great. I've not been able to get Jason's images to boot

I also got a Sparcstation 5 running Solaris 2.6 and have had no luck getting it 
to recognize the HAL boot drives.

Their is something odd about the drives, I've only been able to image one of 
the boot drives on a Linux machine
even though they boot fine.


On 7/11/18 11:12 AM, dwight wrote:
> Hi Al
>
>  I have a line on a CD and may be find some documents to go with it. A friend 
> has this and I hope to get a copy next
> week on Tues or Wed. Are you going to be at the Museum next week. I don't 
> know where you office is on the East bay side.
> It might be closer.
>
> Dwight
>
> 
> *From:* cctalk  on behalf of Al Kossow via 
> cctalk 
> *Sent:* Monday, July 9, 2018 1:34:24 PM
> *To:* cctalk@classiccmp.org
> *Subject:* Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD?
>
> cool, thanks!
>
> I don't currently have a Solaris box set up or I would have edited
> the password file, after dealing with finding an 80 to 50 pin adapter
> for the drive.
>
> On 7/9/18 1:31 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote:
>> Al - I made ISOs of the media I had before giving away my HALstations
>> in 2009.  I will email you directly with a link.
>



Re: 8 inch floppies, decaying

2018-07-11 Thread dwight via cctalk
I'm the victim of the spell checker. Thanks for the fix.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 

Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 11:05:43 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 8 inch floppies, decaying

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Next is the smooth orange oil hand cleaner. ( not the stuff with pumas
> ). Really cleans things great and good for killing ants. Again, rinse
> maybe it might need a little detergent and then rinse.

Don't use pumice to clean off the pumas.  (they won't like it)
Stick with well whale oil.


Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD?

2018-07-11 Thread dwight via cctalk
Hi Al

 I have a line on a CD and may be find some documents to go with it. A friend 
has this and I hope to get a copy next week on Tues or Wed. Are you going to be 
at the Museum next week. I don't know where you office is on the East bay side. 
It might be closer.

Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk 

Sent: Monday, July 9, 2018 1:34:24 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD?

cool, thanks!

I don't currently have a Solaris box set up or I would have edited
the password file, after dealing with finding an 80 to 50 pin adapter
for the drive.

On 7/9/18 1:31 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote:
> Al - I made ISOs of the media I had before giving away my HALstations
> in 2009.  I will email you directly with a link.



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