On 2017-08-05 08:55, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote:
On 8/5/17 04:29, emanuel stiebler wrote:
Xilinx Artix 7. More specifically, we're using a ZTEX 2.13 FPGA module
for our prototyping. Unless some good reason came up, I was thinking to
stick with the same FPGA.
Artix 7? Nice, use them a
On 8/5/17 04:29, emanuel stiebler wrote:
>> Xilinx Artix 7. More specifically, we're using a ZTEX 2.13 FPGA module
>> for our prototyping. Unless some good reason came up, I was thinking to
>> stick with the same FPGA.
>
> Artix 7? Nice, use them a lot.
>
> Vivado or ISE?
Vivado. Another
On 2017-08-04 18:12, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote:
On 8/4/17 11:25, emanuel stiebler wrote:
What FPGAs are you using?
Xilinx Artix 7. More specifically, we're using a ZTEX 2.13 FPGA module
for our prototyping. Unless some good reason came up, I was thinking to
stick with the same FPGA.
On Fri, 4 Aug 2017, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
Unfortunately PATA drives are becoming difficult to find and designing a
SATA interface (not to mention layout issues) is not for the faint of
heart.
That's why I suggest using dirt cheap external PATA<-->SATA bridges.
Christian
On 8/4/17 11:25, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/1678B.pdf
> that the one I use a lot...
Oh, a USB PHY chip. Yeah, that might be the way to go now that we're
not counting I/O pins.
>> 1:1 block mapping. I'm going to have enough fun with trying to
> On Aug 4, 2017, at 1:27 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
>
> On 8/4/2017 12:49 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 12:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk >> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/4/17 11:14 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
most
On 8/4/2017 12:49 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 12:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk
> On Aug 4, 2017, at 3:46 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk
> wrote:
>
>> From: David Bridgham dab at froghouse.org
>
>> I'm going to have enough fun with trying to implement the USB stack in
>> the FPGA
>
> ISTR discussing putting a PDP-11 into the FPGA (there are Verilog
> From: David Bridgham dab at froghouse.org
> I'm going to have enough fun with trying to implement the USB stack in
> the FPGA
ISTR discussing putting a PDP-11 into the FPGA (there are Verilog PDP-11's
available), so we could write our USB code in C (I'd use the Unix V6 compiler
to
On 2017-08-04 15:18, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 2017-08-04 at 15:04 -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
And this path allowed us to get rolling without having to go through
the PC-board fab cycle... (including the complexity of doing boards
with gold fingers).
Just as an aside
On 2017-08-04 15:15, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote:
On 8/4/17 10:46, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
Definitely I'll stick with 12Mb/s USB to start (for sure on our
wire-wrapped prototype board) but I'd love to boost that to 480Mb/s
later. The analog issue is one thing that made me
On 8/4/17 11:16, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
> Use the memory as disk cache locally. Otherwise you need to write
> drivers for all different versions of OSs out there. Transparent cache,
> write through ...
>
> Then no changes are needed on the system
Well, we are going to make the RAM
On 2017-08-04 14:54, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> From: Warner Losh
> had problems finding out just how fast Q-Bus can go
Something like 700 nsec for a cycle (best case), so assuming 16-bit
transfers, a max of a little over 20 Mbit/sec.
From an old email from tim Shoppa who
On Fri, 2017-08-04 at 15:04 -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>
> And this path allowed us to get rolling without having to go through
> the PC-board fab cycle... (including the complexity of doing boards
> with gold fingers).
Just as an aside on that, I doubt you really need the hard gold
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > From: Paul Koning
>
> > flash storage devices do wear leveling. The fact that you're writing
> to
> > the same block number doesn't mean you're actually writing to the
> same
> > spot on
On 2017-08-04 15:04, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> From: Paul Koning
> flash storage devices do wear leveling. The fact that you're writing to
> the same block number doesn't mean you're actually writing to the same
> spot on the physical flash memory.
Yeah, but why 'waste'
On 8/4/17 10:46, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
>> > USB with 480MHz is fast enough
>>
>> I think our plan was to skip that speed, and go with the next one down,
> Probably sufficient for a start ...
> > on
>> the grounds that the analog part at that speed would be too tricky
>> for us.
>
> From: Emanuel Stiebler
>> on the grounds that the analog part at that speed would be too tricky
>> for us.
> No, it isn't.
You _are_ talking to two people who are so clueless about analog that we
didn't bother putting ground lines between each pair of signal lines in a
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 4, 2017, at 2:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/4/17 11:14 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
> >> most SD cards can easily handle 100-200 writes
> >
> From: Al Kossow
> The issue would be things like the swap partition on a unix disk or
> whatever the equivalent is under RSX
Which is why, as I mentioned, that we're including the ability to have
virtual disks which store their data in RAM, not on permanent storage - their
contents
On 2017-08-04 14:38, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> USB with 480MHz is fast enough
I think our plan was to skip that speed, and go with the next one down, on
the grounds that the analog part at that
> On Aug 4, 2017, at 2:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 8/4/17 11:14 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
>> most SD cards can easily handle 100-200 writes
>
> The issue would be things like the swap partition on a unix disk
> or whatever the equivalent is
On 2017-08-04 14:18, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
Exactly our plan (although the USB is left until after we get the SD running).
> USB with 480MHz is fast enough
I think our plan was to skip that speed, and go with the next one down,
Probably sufficient for a start ...
> on
the
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > USB with 480MHz is fast enough
>
> I think our plan was to skip that speed, and go with the next one down, on
> the grounds that the analog part at that speed would be too tricky for us.
I did some
On 8/4/17 11:14 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
> most SD cards can easily handle 100-200 writes
The issue would be things like the swap partition on a unix disk
or whatever the equivalent is under RSX
On 8/4/2017 8:07 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 4 Aug 2017, Noel Chiappa wrote:
But are SD cards really that unreliable? If they were, I'd have
thought I'd
Yes they are. Just have look around in the world of cameras and
smartphones where people suffer from losing their photos
> From: Emanuel Stiebler
> If I would do it again, it would be USB only with some sd-card slots.
Exactly our plan (although the USB is left until after we get the SD running).
> USB with 480MHz is fast enough
I think our plan was to skip that speed, and go with the next one down,
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 11:17 AM, David Bridgham via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> So my question is: do industrial SD cards exist?
>
Yes. They have for about a decade. Almost all SD cards these days could
easily handle an I/O write rate that a PDP-11 is able to generate. It takes
On 2017-08-04 14:01, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> From: Al Kossow
> but it looks like they are going EOL
Is that just this particular product (individual SD/etc products seem to go
out all the time, as new and bigger ones come out), or industrial SD cards in
general? I hope not
> From: Al Kossow
> but it looks like they are going EOL
Is that just this particular product (individual SD/etc products seem to go
out all the time, as new and bigger ones come out), or industrial SD cards in
general? I hope not that latter, that would blow a large hole in out
On 2017-08-04 13:51, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> From: Paul Koning
>> do industrial SD cards exist?
> If you have a ready-made SD interface, these cards work nicely. If you
> need to build one from scratch it gets tricky, because the interface is
> fairly high speed
On 2017-08-04 13:17, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote:
I don't think I'm up to going with a higher-end FPGA and trying to
implement SATA even though in many ways I think that's the right
answer. If there's a SATA PHY chip, that's a maybe.
Forget about SATA, even if some people like it here;-)
> From: Paul Koning
>> do industrial SD cards exist?
> If you have a ready-made SD interface, these cards work nicely. If you
> need to build one from scratch it gets tricky, because the interface is
> fairly high speed serial (packet based) signaling, and the
>
On 8/4/17 10:34 AM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, 2017-08-04 at 09:17 -0800, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote:
>>
> So my question is: do industrial SD cards exist?
>
> Yes they do. Most of the big card manufacturers have an "industrial"
> range, for example:
>
>
On Fri, 2017-08-04 at 09:17 -0800, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote:
>
So my question is: do industrial SD cards exist?
Yes they do. Most of the big card manufacturers have an "industrial"
range, for example:
https://www.sandisk.co.uk/oem-design/industrial/industrial-cards
There are also
On 8/4/17 09:26, Paul Koning wrote:
>> So my question is: do industrial SD cards exist?
> Yes; we've been using them for years now in the products I work on. While
> you can still wear them out if you beat on them hard enough, they do have
> good reliability.
Okay, that's good news then. Any
> On Aug 4, 2017, at 1:17 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> ...
> So my question is: do industrial SD cards exist?
Yes; we've been using them for years now in the products I work on. While you
can still wear them out if you beat on them hard enough, they do
On 8/4/17 05:49, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:
> Going with SLC/"industrial" Flash is indeed the key to avoiding random
> failures. I have many deployed systems using industrial Flash modules (IDE
> DOMs)
As Noel said, he initially talked using an IDE interface for the QSIC.
I proposed SD
> On Aug 4, 2017, at 1:14 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 3 Aug 2017, emanuel stiebler wrote:
>> On 2017-08-03 11:12, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>>> It would be nice, though if someone just finished a MSCP controller with a
>>> CF or SD on it.
>>
the cheap bridges are actually based on the 20330
you can find a real data sheet if you search for JM20330_datasheet_v2.5.pdf
hard enough
some discussions of their use with ssd trim
https://forum.thinkpads.com//viewtopic.php?t=115329
On 8/4/17 8:08 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
>
> On
On Fri, 4 Aug 2017, Al Kossow wrote:
Can you actually buy SATA PHYs in small quantities now
or even SATA to PATA bridges?
I would go for a cheap external bridge, something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008X8NK0I
On 8/4/17 7:44 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:
> There are indeed cheap SATA -> IDE bridge ICs.
yup, I'm running around 50 of them in my upgraded XServe RAIDs
when I converted to 1tb 2.5" SATA-2 drives in 2015.
On 8/4/17 7:37 AM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote:
> ASSPs like TI's TUSB9260
which turns up a big fat nothing in a web search
is there a data sheet somewhere?
the 6250 is a SATA 2 to USB using an 8051 core, but I suspect you
can't get the code for that.
one of the common pata-sata bridges
There are indeed cheap SATA -> IDE bridge ICs. I'm currently evaluating
some small, cheap IDE -> mSATA SSD adapters for disk replacements in
industrial systems. The module with a mSATA socket and 44-pin laptop sized
IDE connector is less than $10 from various online retailers.
Thanks,
Jonathan
On Fri, 2017-08-04 at 07:20 -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
> Can you actually buy SATA PHYs in small quantities now
> or even SATA to PATA bridges?
I can't think of anybody who makes discrete SATA PHYs, and there isn't
a standardized interface for the other side of the PHY so I suspect
On 8/4/17 7:07 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> If you really want a non-rotating media, then I
> suggest that you use SATA SSDs.
Can you actually buy SATA PHYs in small quantities now
or even SATA to PATA bridges?
I remember looking for them in the past and either not
being able to buy
On Fri, 4 Aug 2017, Paul Koning wrote:
On Aug 4, 2017, at 4:14 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk
wrote: I don't like the idea of CF or SD at
all. I'd pretty much prefer PATA or SATA, because ...
CF is PATA, just a different connector.
If the board provides a PATA
On Fri, 4 Aug 2017, Noel Chiappa wrote:
But are SD cards really that unreliable? If they were, I'd have thought I'd
Yes they are. Just have look around in the world of cameras and
smartphones where people suffer from losing their photos just because an
SD card decides to fail. I have several
> On Aug 4, 2017, at 4:14 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 3 Aug 2017, emanuel stiebler wrote:
>> On 2017-08-03 11:12, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>>> It would be nice, though if someone just finished a MSCP controller with a
>>> CF or SD on it.
>>
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 9:49 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Going with SLC/"industrial" Flash is indeed the key to avoiding random
> failures. I have many deployed systems using industrial Flash modules (IDE
> DOMs) running 24/7 in critical production environments,
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 9:42 AM, Phil Blundell via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 2017-08-04 at 08:53 -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > But are SD cards really that unreliable?
>
> It depends on exactly how you measure "reliable". There are a few
> different things
Going with SLC/"industrial" Flash is indeed the key to avoiding random
failures. I have many deployed systems using industrial Flash modules (IDE
DOMs) running 24/7 in critical production environments, mostly running
machine tools and semiconductor production line equipment. We still do
regular
On Fri, 2017-08-04 at 08:53 -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>
> But are SD cards really that unreliable?
It depends on exactly how you measure "reliable". There are a few
different things going on, and it differs from one SD card to another.
Firstly, there are multiple types of flash
> From: Christian Corti
> I don't like the idea of CF or SD at all. I'd pretty much prefer PATA
> or SATA, because ... Real drives are also much more reliable than flash
> drives,
I found this interesting/troubling, because Dave Bridgham and I decided to
use SD cards, after I
On 2017-08-04 04:14, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017, emanuel stiebler wrote:
On 2017-08-03 11:12, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
It would be nice, though if someone just finished a MSCP controller
with a CF or SD on it.
I don't think there is enough demand for it. So to
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017, emanuel stiebler wrote:
On 2017-08-03 11:12, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
It would be nice, though if someone just finished a MSCP controller with a
CF or SD on it.
I don't think there is enough demand for it. So to finish it would take some
effort, and the boards wouldn't
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> >> On Aug 2, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctech <
>> cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> I will soon be getting a PDP-11/73 with 1MB of RAM, an RLV12 and DEQNA
>> >>
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >> On Aug 2, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctech <
> cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I will soon be getting a PDP-11/73 with 1MB of RAM, an RLV12 and DEQNA
> >>
> On Aug 3, 2017, at 9:28 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk
> wrote:
>
>> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr
>
>> Having several different Unibus board designs in various stages .. I can
>> tell you that producing a *reliable* Unibus board is *not* going to be
>> cheap.
>
> Why not?
> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr
> Having several different Unibus board designs in various stages .. I can
> tell you that producing a *reliable* Unibus board is *not* going to be
> cheap.
Why not? Just the size, gold-plated fingers, and transceiver chips, or is
there more?
I've heard that the Emulex UD33 and SC21 are the SMD controllers of
> choice, but do they do MSCP? I'd love to head any comments from those "in
> the know" out there. Are there other alternatives other than Emulex that
> may work well also?
Emulex UD33 is MSCP and is similar to QD32 and
On 2017-08-03 11:12, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
It would be nice, though if someone just finished a MSCP controller with a CF
or SD on it.
I don't think there is enough demand for it. So to finish it would take
some effort, and the boards wouldn't be cheaper than the SCSI
controllers out
> On Aug 3, 2017, at 7:10 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> That said, my PDP 11 is Unibus, and Unibus SCSI controllers are darned
> expen$ive.
They’re desirable and not a lot around. So it’s not terribly surprising.
Having several different Unibus board
On 8/3/17 7:10 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote:
> I've found much the same with ESDI drives...they tend to die just sitting,
> and it's not stiction that seems to be the culprit...they simply quit working.
That isn't good news. I still have about 100 drives that came out of Apollo's
Glen S. wrote:
>QBus ESDI controllers are relatively cheap. I have several Emulex QD21, Dilog
>DQ696, and Sigma SDC-RQD11 QBus ESDI controllers. The >problem I have with
>them is that I now have more controllers than working ESDI drives. Some of the
>drives that I had which were >working have
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 6:24 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk
wrote:
> You might consider just adding another storage controller. I'd recommend
> something that talks MSCP. SCSI seems to be what most people are after
> nowadays, but ESDI controllers are much cheaper, and the
>> On Aug 2, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctech
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I will soon be getting a PDP-11/73 with 1MB of RAM, an RLV12 and DEQNA
>> controllers. I already have two RL02 and packs (which need a clean),
>> with thanks to Dave Wade on this list.
> On Aug 2, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctech
> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I will soon be getting a PDP-11/73 with 1MB of RAM, an RLV12 and DEQNA
> controllers. I already have two RL02 and packs (which need a clean),
> with thanks to Dave Wade on this list.
>
>
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 7:24 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> You might consider just adding another storage controller. I'd recommend
> something that talks MSCP. SCSI seems to be what most people are after
> nowadays, but ESDI controllers are much cheaper, and the
> Bill
>
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > > From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Aaron
> Jackson
> > via cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August
> From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Aaron Jackson via
> cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 2:32 PM
> To: cct...@classiccmp.org
> Subject: 2.11BSD on two RL02 drives? Probably not, but...
>
> Hi all,
>
> I will
From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Aaron Jackson via
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 2:32 PM
To: cct...@classiccmp.org
Subject: 2.11BSD on two RL02 drives? Probably not, but...
Hi all,
I will soon
Hi all,
I will soon be getting a PDP-11/73 with 1MB of RAM, an RLV12 and DEQNA
controllers. I already have two RL02 and packs (which need a clean),
with thanks to Dave Wade on this list.
Ideally I would like to run 2.11BSD, on two RL02 drives, I'm not sure
this is going to be possible. Does
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