Re: CF cards as storage - wear leveling
> > > I don't think anybody is actually using real CF cards anymore, they are > about a decade out of date. > > Well, a few of us are still using them for 8-bit hard drive emulators. Examples include the XT-CF Lite for PC compatibles with ISA slots (which I use), and the CFFA3000 for the Apple II. I do keep backups though, and luckily I've got a small stash of CF cards, so if they die, oh well. - Earl
Re: CF cards as storage - wear leveling
I don't think anybody is actually using real CF cards anymore, they are about a decade out of date. Jon Jon, This is the list where we discuss using stuff that's a decade and more out of date. (I've got a large box of real 16MB CF cards that I got for nothing on freecycle that I keep meaning to dream up a use for...) Regards, Peter Coghlan.
Re: CF cards as storage - wear leveling
On 03/19/2017 11:20 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Just about ANY CF card you buy today new will have wear leveling. > It's almost impossible without trying to be an ass to the card to > have it fail in a few weeks. I've run 64MB cards in Soekris boxes for > a decade w/o any problems. The key, as with all flash purchases, is > to buy the best, fastest you can rather than the cheapest you can. > But most unix systems can do many things to mitigate wear. There's > dozens of tutorials about mounting noatime (to keep access times from > being updated), to more advanced features like putting /var/tmp and > friends on memory disks, etc. With a 486, though, that might not be > an option. Not sure what kind of system you are migrating though... If you're worried about write wear on a CF card and can do with higher power consumption and somewhat slower speed, use one of the "Microdrives" offered by IBM, Hitachi or Seagate in past years. I believe that capacity of 12GB may be the upper limit. They're comparatively inexpensive, as NOS items. I ran a 5GB Seagate drive for about 5 years 24/7 in a mailserver with no issues. --Chuck
Re: CF cards as storage - wear leveling
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 10:06 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalkwrote: > > I just bought an IDE-CF adapter the other day with the intention of > replacing the spinning rust in my disk imaging system (which is some > early/mid-90s 80486-based thing). > > However, the CF entry on Wikipedia says: > > "Most CompactFlash flash-memory devices limit wear on blocks by varying the > physical location to which a block is written. When using CompactFlash in > ATA mode to take the place of the hard disk drive, wear leveling becomes > critical because low-numbered blocks contain tables whose contents change > frequently. Current CompactFlash cards spread the wear-leveling across the > entire drive. The more advanced CompactFlash cards will move data that > rarely changes to ensure all blocks wear evenly." > > ... I'm a little wary about the way it says "most CF cards", implying that > there are some out there which don't do any wear-leveling at all. So, the > obvious question: is there a way of knowing which cards are going to be good > and which are useless as IDE replacements? Maybe by age, capacity, > manufacturer? I'd prefer not to invest time into setting software up only to > find that the card fails in a matter of weeks. Just about ANY CF card you buy today new will have wear leveling. It's almost impossible without trying to be an ass to the card to have it fail in a few weeks. I've run 64MB cards in Soekris boxes for a decade w/o any problems. The key, as with all flash purchases, is to buy the best, fastest you can rather than the cheapest you can. But most unix systems can do many things to mitigate wear. There's dozens of tutorials about mounting noatime (to keep access times from being updated), to more advanced features like putting /var/tmp and friends on memory disks, etc. With a 486, though, that might not be an option. Not sure what kind of system you are migrating though... CF cards tend to be much more compatible with systems than SD card adapters, but on extremely old system can be picky even with CF cards. I had a system back in the day not present the CF card as a bootable device because something in its ID string was a bit wonky to it. SD cards tend to be crap too without careful selection (which usually means getting a couple of the faster cards and hoping that at least one of them is good). These days, it's more a precaution than an actual requirement though, but see below. For $40 you can get a 32GB Lexar Professional that boasts 1066x speed and UDMA7. You'll likely not do UDMA at all in a system of that age. DMA is another area where you have to buy the right CF card (though it's hard to buy the wrong kind new, random used stuff is a crap shoot whether all the pins needed for UDMA are present). If you have problems, try setting the to PIO. Seems like overkill. If you are looking for a smaller card because the BIOS just can't cope with anything that big, you'll need to buy the professional grade used cards, though that too is a crap shoot (so buy several). If you have a reasonable sized system (say 2GB) the way you cope with failure is to backup an image every so often with DD and just blast it out to a new card if the one you get fails. But if you do that, the size has to be >= the old one. And with a 486, you likely don't have an LBA BIOS, so you need to make sure the geometry matches which can be tricky. The geometry reported by CF<->USB adapters will almost certainly be different than what the CF<->IDE adapter reports. So good luck! Warner
Re: CF cards as storage - wear leveling
On 03/19/2017 11:06 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: I just bought an IDE-CF adapter the other day with the intention of replacing the spinning rust in my disk imaging system (which is some early/mid-90s 80486-based thing). However, the CF entry on Wikipedia says: "Most CompactFlash flash-memory devices limit wear on blocks by varying the physical location to which a block is written. When using CompactFlash in ATA mode to take the place of the hard disk drive, wear leveling becomes critical because low-numbered blocks contain tables whose contents change frequently. Current CompactFlash cards spread the wear-leveling across the entire drive. The more advanced CompactFlash cards will move data that rarely changes to ensure all blocks wear evenly." ... I'm a little wary about the way it says "most CF cards", implying that there are some out there which don't do any wear-leveling at all. So, the obvious question: is there a way of knowing which cards are going to be good and which are useless as IDE replacements? Maybe by age, capacity, manufacturer? I'd prefer not to invest time into setting software up only to find that the card fails in a matter of weeks. I have several systems that have the old Beagle Board computer in them. They are not run continuously, but have been run for months at a time. These use regular-size SD cards as the "disk" for a Linux OS. I did set the noatime flag on the file system. They are still running on the original SD cards. I have a Beagle Bone running LinuxCNC under a Debian-based distro, and I fire it up at various times to text boards I make, and it is still running the original micro-SD card. I don't think anybody is actually using real CF cards anymore, they are about a decade out of date. Jon
CF cards as storage - wear leveling
I just bought an IDE-CF adapter the other day with the intention of replacing the spinning rust in my disk imaging system (which is some early/mid-90s 80486-based thing). However, the CF entry on Wikipedia says: "Most CompactFlash flash-memory devices limit wear on blocks by varying the physical location to which a block is written. When using CompactFlash in ATA mode to take the place of the hard disk drive, wear leveling becomes critical because low-numbered blocks contain tables whose contents change frequently. Current CompactFlash cards spread the wear-leveling across the entire drive. The more advanced CompactFlash cards will move data that rarely changes to ensure all blocks wear evenly." ... I'm a little wary about the way it says "most CF cards", implying that there are some out there which don't do any wear-leveling at all. So, the obvious question: is there a way of knowing which cards are going to be good and which are useless as IDE replacements? Maybe by age, capacity, manufacturer? I'd prefer not to invest time into setting software up only to find that the card fails in a matter of weeks. cheers Jules