Re: Software for small-memory PDP-11s?

2015-11-14 Thread Paul Koning 

> On Nov 13, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:
> 
> Hey all --
> 
> Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely, I'm curious what others are
> running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played
> with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems.  I have only 8KW of memory
> (with no viable options for expansion) and there's not much out there that
> I've found.  There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and
> PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty cool
> if a bit cumbersome.  Any other suggestions?
> 
> I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be
> made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I
> can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest
> that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out) and
> I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe is
> the earliest version with TU58 support.  (V3B seems to be different enough
> from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.)

RT11 V2 SJ will certainly fit easily in that size memory.  DOS will fit even in 
4K (at least the older versions).  Come to think of it, RT might also; I 
haven't tried it that small.

paul

Re: Software for small-memory PDP-11s?

2015-11-14 Thread Jerome H. Fine 
Sorry I forgot to remove the SPAM  KEY notice thsat my e-mail places 
there



>Paul Koning wrote:


On Nov 13, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:

Hey all --

Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely, I'm curious what others are
running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played
with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems.  I have only 8KW of memory
(with no viable options for expansion) and there's not much out there that
I've found.  There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and
PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty cool
if a bit cumbersome.  Any other suggestions?

I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be
made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I
can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest
that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out) and
I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe is
the earliest version with TU58 support.  (V3B seems to be different enough
from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.)
   



RT11 V2 SJ will certainly fit easily in that size memory.  DOS will fit even in 
4K (at least the older versions).  Come to think of it, RT might also; I 
haven't tried it that small.

paul


NOTE:  I don't have a real PDP-11/05.  All my tests
were done under Ersatz-11.

I just tried to boot V04.00 of RT-11 on a PDP-11/05
using an RK05 device (RK:) under the RT11SJ.SYS
monitor.  First I set the memory to 32 KB (16KW)
and it worked quite well.  Then I tried with 16 KB
(8KW) and while it did boot, during the boot process
of V04.00 of RT-11, I did see the error message:

Insufficient Memory

On the other hand, I was able to perform a DIR
and a few other tests which did work.

I then attempted to confirm with V2 and 16 KB of
memory and that also worked with the RK05 device.
Obviously, it is not possible to do very much with
just 16 KB (8KW) of memory.

As for support for the TU58 device (DD:), I also
attempted that and came up empty. using V3B
of RT-11.  The V3B distribution which I have
does not seem to support the TU58 since RT-11
crashes when I attempt to use the TU58 device.

There may be some bad code in RT-11 when the
TU58 is used with a PDP-11/05.  I just don't have
the resources in the time that is available to find out.

Josh, you don't mention if you have a disk drive
of any kind on the PDP-11/05,  It would help
if you could describe all of the available hardware.
If the TU58 is the only "disk drive" available, then
I am not sure what to suggest in order to get RT-11
to run in any case.

Jerome Fine

Re: [SPAM key] - Re: Software for small-memory PDP-11s?

2015-11-14 Thread Jerome H. Fine 

>Paul Koning wrote:


On Nov 13, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:

Hey all --

Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely, I'm curious what others are
running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played
with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems.  I have only 8KW of memory
(with no viable options for expansion) and there's not much out there that
I've found.  There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and
PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty cool
if a bit cumbersome.  Any other suggestions?

I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be
made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I
can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest
that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out) and
I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe is
the earliest version with TU58 support.  (V3B seems to be different enough
from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.)
   



RT11 V2 SJ will certainly fit easily in that size memory.  DOS will fit even in 
4K (at least the older versions).  Come to think of it, RT might also; I 
haven't tried it that small.

paul


NOTE:  I don't have a real PDP-11/05.  All my tests
were done under Ersatz-11.

I just tried to boot V04.00 of RT-11 on a PDP-11/05
using an RK05 device (RK:) under the RT11SJ.SYS
monitor.  First I set the memory to 32 KB (16KW)
and it worked quite well.  Then I tried with 16 KB
(8KW) and while it did boot, during the boot process
of V04.00 of RT-11, I did see the error message:

Insufficient Memory

On the other hand, I was able to perform a DIR
and a few other tests which did work.

I then attempted to confirm with V2 and 16 KB of
memory and that also worked with the RK05 device.
Obviously, it is not possible to do very much with
just 16 KB (8KW) of memory.

As for support for the TU58 device (DD:), I also
attempted that and came up empty. using V3B
of RT-11.  The V3B distribution which I have
does not seem to support the TU58 since RT-11
crashes when I attempt to use the TU58 device.

There may be some bad code in RT-11 when the
TU58 is used with a PDP-11/05.  I just don't have
the resources in the time that is available to find out.

Josh, you don't mention if you have a disk drive
of any kind on the PDP-11/05,  It would help
if you could describe all of the available hardware.
If the TU58 is the only "disk drive" available, then
I am not sure what to suggest in order to get RT-11
to run in any case.

Jerome Fine

Re: Software for small-memory PDP-11s?

2015-11-14 Thread Josh Dersch 

On 11/14/15 7:07 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
Sorry I forgot to remove the SPAM  KEY notice thsat my e-mail places 
there



>Paul Koning wrote:


On Nov 13, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:

Hey all --

Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely, I'm curious what others 
are

running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played
with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems.  I have only 8KW of 
memory
(with no viable options for expansion) and there's not much out 
there that
I've found.  There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and 
FOCAL, and
PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is 
pretty cool

if a bit cumbersome.  Any other suggestions?

I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 
could be
made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in 
theory I
can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals 
suggest
that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this 
out) and
I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I 
believe is
the earliest version with TU58 support.  (V3B seems to be different 
enough
from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process 
works.)




RT11 V2 SJ will certainly fit easily in that size memory.  DOS will 
fit even in 4K (at least the older versions).  Come to think of it, 
RT might also; I haven't tried it that small.


paul


NOTE:  I don't have a real PDP-11/05.  All my tests
were done under Ersatz-11.

I just tried to boot V04.00 of RT-11 on a PDP-11/05
using an RK05 device (RK:) under the RT11SJ.SYS
monitor.  First I set the memory to 32 KB (16KW)
and it worked quite well.  Then I tried with 16 KB
(8KW) and while it did boot, during the boot process
of V04.00 of RT-11, I did see the error message:

Insufficient Memory

On the other hand, I was able to perform a DIR
and a few other tests which did work.
It's interesting; I tried the same thing and while it worked under simh 
booting from RK05, when I tried it on the real thing (after changing the 
boot device to DD:) it fails with:


"?BOOT-U-Insufficient memory"

And halts.  I'm unsure what would cause the discrepancy; simh doesn't 
appear to support the TU58 for the PDP-11 so I can't verify, but perhaps 
the DD: driver requires more memory.  (And yes, I've tested the 8KW 
memory in the 11/05 extensively, it's all there and working :)).




I then attempted to confirm with V2 and 16 KB of
memory and that also worked with the RK05 device.
Obviously, it is not possible to do very much with
just 16 KB (8KW) of memory.

As for support for the TU58 device (DD:), I also
attempted that and came up empty. using V3B
of RT-11.  The V3B distribution which I have
does not seem to support the TU58 since RT-11
crashes when I attempt to use the TU58 device.

There may be some bad code in RT-11 when the
TU58 is used with a PDP-11/05.  I just don't have
the resources in the time that is available to find out.

Josh, you don't mention if you have a disk drive
of any kind on the PDP-11/05,  It would help
if you could describe all of the available hardware.
If the TU58 is the only "disk drive" available, then
I am not sure what to suggest in order to get RT-11
to run in any case.


What I have available (that will work/fit in an 11/05 lacking a UNIBUS 
expansion chassis) are two SLUs and an RX02 controller.  I was hoping to 
bootstrap over TU58 and then see what I can do to get a system running 
off of the RX02 (which will require V4.0 for the DY: driver).


It might just be easier to build an RX02 image on simh and try copying 
it to the '11 over the SLU.  Have to cobble some code together to do that...


- Josh



Jerome Fine

Re: Software for small-memory PDP-11s?

2015-11-13 Thread j...@cimmeri.com 



On 11/13/2015 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

Hey all --

Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely,


What did you end up doing to arrive at 
that functionality?  Did I miss some emails?




I'm curious what others are
running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played
with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems.  I have only 8KW of memory
(with no viable options for expansion)
Can't MOS memory be put on the Unibus in 
an expansion chassis?




and there's not much out there that
I've found.  There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and
PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty cool
if a bit cumbersome.  Any other suggestions?

I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be
made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I
can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest
that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out) and
I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe is
the earliest version with TU58 support.  (V3B seems to be different enough
from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.)

Thanks as always,
Josh

Re: Software for small-memory PDP-11s?

2015-11-13 Thread Josh Dersch 
On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 2:52 PM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:

>
>
> On 11/13/2015 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
>> Hey all --
>>
>> Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely,
>>
>
> What did you end up doing to arrive at that functionality?  Did I miss
> some emails?


Total issues over the past year or so were:
- Power supply needed some work.
- CPU non-functional: traced down to a pair of microcode PROMs with bitrot;
regenerated PROM images from the original service manual scans on
Bitsavers.  (Ugh)
- Dead 128 word region in 8KW core plane:  Traced down to a broken wire on
the core mat; unfixable (by me at any rate).  Lucked into a cheap (and
fortunately working!) replacement on eBay a couple of weeks back.
- Bad Boxer fan (completely dead, likely the cause of the PROM failures due
to overheating many years back...)
- Failing diagnostics: traced down to operator error on my part
(misjumpered SLU interrupt vector).



>
>
>
> I'm curious what others are
>> running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played
>> with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems.  I have only 8KW of
>> memory
>> (with no viable options for expansion)
>>
> Can't MOS memory be put on the Unibus in an expansion chassis?


Yes.  "viable" in this case translates to "I have the parts on hand, or
parts are easy to come by."

Thanks,
- Josh



>
>
>
> and there's not much out there that
>> I've found.  There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and
>> PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty
>> cool
>> if a bit cumbersome.  Any other suggestions?
>>
>> I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be
>> made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I
>> can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest
>> that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out)
>> and
>> I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe
>> is
>> the earliest version with TU58 support.  (V3B seems to be different enough
>> from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.)
>>
>> Thanks as always,
>> Josh
>>
>>
>>