Re: Wanted: Info on Optisys/Optidisk WORM file system
I'm discovering that WORM is a world in itself. After taking forever to try to image a 470MB disc and taking forever to do it because of automatic retries on unwritten sectors, I've discovered that WORM has a SCSI2 command that's unique to it--38H, "Medium Scan" which can be used to identify groups of written or blank blocks. There are, of course, other optional WORM-specific commands, but I thought that I'd pass this one along, as it doesn't occur in any other medium type, as far as I'm aware. --Chuck
Re: Wanted: Info on Optisys/Optidisk WORM file system
On 13/02/2021 09:03, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: I think the DEC one was the RX20 or RZ20. It will take a while to find it, but I'll check the model number.. Paul The DEC RV20 was announced in 1988. Those were quite large as I recall (bigger than an LP). ~2GB write-once. There was the RWZ01 (replaced by the RWZ52), which was 1.2GB per disk. This was re-writeable. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini anto...@acarlini.com
Re: Wanted: Info on Optisys/Optidisk WORM file system
I think the DEC one was the RX20 or RZ20. It will take a while to find it, but I'll check the model number.. Paul On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 2:12 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 2/12/2021 11:46 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 2/11/21 9:31 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> I have a bunch of Panasonic/Matsushita 470/940 MB phase-change WORM > >> discs here--and the appropriate drive (Panasonic LF-5010 SCSI-2) to read > >> them. > > After some digging, I did find that Optisys offered a driver for DOS as > > late as 2008, called Optidriver 2000: > > > > https://web.archive.org/web/19980624194233/http://www.optisys.com/ > > > > Here's an ad from 1987 that shows an offering: > > > > > https://books.google.com/books?id=x1yigTsvZxsC=RA1-PA475=5n4IGUBIIU=Optisys%20%22Phoenix%22=RA1-PA475#v=onepage > > > > Is anyone familiar with this stuff? > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > > There was a company who made a drive with glass media that a friend of > ours repped for. > > It used a repurposed CD head which was driven hard enough to write their > media. it was sold as being able to be written and locked such that it > couldn't be further modified if need be. The nuclear security people > were interested, but ultimately passed due to the size off the player, > and the need for very long term access to the technology. > > The floppies you hear about (off topic) containing security information > are written with a process that makes it very hard if not impossible to > alter them w/o destruction of the data at the remote end. > > The worm drives had a way to write, then alter by putting in an update > marker on the media. You had to work your way to the last version of > the directory and work your way back to find all the files. Versioning > was used to allow updates. The software package could go back thru the > data and allow you to see all the updates if need be. > > Once you got to full, the media would be marked locked with a special > area at the inner tracks and from there on would not be updateable. > > Mot sure if this is the same operation or not. > > They used an regular ESDI interface on the drives they gave us for > eval. IIRC basic read and writes could happen on the media, but special > drivers could be used to make it look more like a flat FAT type file > from to such as Dos or Windows at the time. > > FAT from the standpoint of the software api, file name and the like. > The structure on the disk was not necessarily physically compatible. > > We got an eval unit because I had bought the necessry ESDI controller, > and we could use the drive. ESDI was not common at the time and was not > widely available at that time. IIRC we had 386 systems AT bus type > systems. > > I had a sample disk at some point, not sure where it went. I sent a big > pile of manuals and specs to Al last year, might have had the stuff from > whoever we had the drive from in that pile if I still had it. > > My partner passed away about 2 weeks ago and would possibly have > recalled who it was, but can't ask now. I'll try a scan of our contact > files and see if "opti" anything shows up. > > thanks > Jim >
Re: Wanted: Info on Optisys/Optidisk WORM file system
On 2/12/21 2:10 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > The company I'm thinking of had 5 1/4" drive, and appropriate media > size. I think your 400 or 500mb size rings familiar. There were several; the one I'm working with is 470/470MB double-sided 5.25" Very similar in size and looks to a PMC MO 5.25" cartridge. --Chuck
Re: Wanted: Info on Optisys/Optidisk WORM file system
On 2/12/2021 1:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 2/12/21 12:21 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Feb 12, 2021, at 3:12 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: There was a company who made a drive with glass media that a friend of ours repped for. It used a repurposed CD head which was driven hard enough to write their media. it was sold as being able to be written and locked such that it couldn't be further modified if need be. The nuclear security people were interested, but ultimately passed due to the size off the player, and the need for very long term access to the technology. DEC had an optical WORM drive, I think it had rather large media. Not sure if that's the one you're thinking about. I believe it shipped but it doesn't feel like a particularly successful product. (Then again, the worst I remember was a networking device that sold a total of 3 units over its lifetime -- the DESNC...) WORM appeared in the 8" and 12" disc format as well, IIRC. --Chuck The company I'm thinking of had 5 1/4" drive, and appropriate media size. I think your 400 or 500mb size rings familiar. Dec didn't pick this product up, and I lost track of them and where they sold their product. Fun story, may be a repeat. The rep I mentioned was a retired Chief Petty Officer in the US Navy. He was the one elected to send to make a Pentagon presentation about the media. The presentation was to originally be to one or two officers, but once the possibility of something to replace the nuclear security mission was in play, it turned into a 30 person presentation. He normally would have had no problem with a crowd, and was a really great guy. But when he went into the conference room, there were about 90% Admiral Flag officers, General officers, and the like there. The CPO reaction kicked in a bit, and he said his asshole puckered about so many times, and he finally calmed down. One thing an on duty CPO doesn't like is to have any officers around, as the job of that rank in the Navy is to run things. A lot of times on board ship the reason they see officers is because something is wrong, so there's a learned reaction to seeing officers. He did great, but as I said, they weren't ready to trust a startup even though it was 100% of what they wanted. thanks Jim
Re: Wanted: Info on Optisys/Optidisk WORM file system
On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 at 21:12, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > My partner passed away about 2 weeks ago and would possibly have > recalled who it was, but can't ask now. I'll try a scan of our contact > files and see if "opti" anything shows up. Oh, I am sorry to hear that. My condolences. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Wanted: Info on Optisys/Optidisk WORM file system
On 2/12/21 12:21 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Feb 12, 2021, at 3:12 PM, jim stephens via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> >> There was a company who made a drive with glass media that a friend of ours >> repped for. >> >> It used a repurposed CD head which was driven hard enough to write their >> media. it was sold as being able to be written and locked such that it >> couldn't be further modified if need be. The nuclear security people were >> interested, but ultimately passed due to the size off the player, and the >> need for very long term access to the technology. > > DEC had an optical WORM drive, I think it had rather large media. Not sure > if that's the one you're thinking about. I believe it shipped but it doesn't > feel like a particularly successful product. (Then again, the worst I > remember was a networking device that sold a total of 3 units over its > lifetime -- the DESNC...) WORM appeared in the 8" and 12" disc format as well, IIRC. --Chuck
Re: Wanted: Info on Optisys/Optidisk WORM file system
> On Feb 12, 2021, at 3:12 PM, jim stephens via cctalk > wrote: > > > There was a company who made a drive with glass media that a friend of ours > repped for. > > It used a repurposed CD head which was driven hard enough to write their > media. it was sold as being able to be written and locked such that it > couldn't be further modified if need be. The nuclear security people were > interested, but ultimately passed due to the size off the player, and the > need for very long term access to the technology. DEC had an optical WORM drive, I think it had rather large media. Not sure if that's the one you're thinking about. I believe it shipped but it doesn't feel like a particularly successful product. (Then again, the worst I remember was a networking device that sold a total of 3 units over its lifetime -- the DESNC...) paul
Re: Wanted: Info on Optisys/Optidisk WORM file system
On 2/12/2021 11:46 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 2/11/21 9:31 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I have a bunch of Panasonic/Matsushita 470/940 MB phase-change WORM discs here--and the appropriate drive (Panasonic LF-5010 SCSI-2) to read them. After some digging, I did find that Optisys offered a driver for DOS as late as 2008, called Optidriver 2000: https://web.archive.org/web/19980624194233/http://www.optisys.com/ Here's an ad from 1987 that shows an offering: https://books.google.com/books?id=x1yigTsvZxsC=RA1-PA475=5n4IGUBIIU=Optisys%20%22Phoenix%22=RA1-PA475#v=onepage Is anyone familiar with this stuff? --Chuck There was a company who made a drive with glass media that a friend of ours repped for. It used a repurposed CD head which was driven hard enough to write their media. it was sold as being able to be written and locked such that it couldn't be further modified if need be. The nuclear security people were interested, but ultimately passed due to the size off the player, and the need for very long term access to the technology. The floppies you hear about (off topic) containing security information are written with a process that makes it very hard if not impossible to alter them w/o destruction of the data at the remote end. The worm drives had a way to write, then alter by putting in an update marker on the media. You had to work your way to the last version of the directory and work your way back to find all the files. Versioning was used to allow updates. The software package could go back thru the data and allow you to see all the updates if need be. Once you got to full, the media would be marked locked with a special area at the inner tracks and from there on would not be updateable. Mot sure if this is the same operation or not. They used an regular ESDI interface on the drives they gave us for eval. IIRC basic read and writes could happen on the media, but special drivers could be used to make it look more like a flat FAT type file from to such as Dos or Windows at the time. FAT from the standpoint of the software api, file name and the like. The structure on the disk was not necessarily physically compatible. We got an eval unit because I had bought the necessry ESDI controller, and we could use the drive. ESDI was not common at the time and was not widely available at that time. IIRC we had 386 systems AT bus type systems. I had a sample disk at some point, not sure where it went. I sent a big pile of manuals and specs to Al last year, might have had the stuff from whoever we had the drive from in that pile if I still had it. My partner passed away about 2 weeks ago and would possibly have recalled who it was, but can't ask now. I'll try a scan of our contact files and see if "opti" anything shows up. thanks Jim
Re: Wanted: Info on Optisys/Optidisk WORM file system
On 2/11/21 9:31 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I have a bunch of Panasonic/Matsushita 470/940 MB phase-change WORM > discs here--and the appropriate drive (Panasonic LF-5010 SCSI-2) to read > them. After some digging, I did find that Optisys offered a driver for DOS as late as 2008, called Optidriver 2000: https://web.archive.org/web/19980624194233/http://www.optisys.com/ Here's an ad from 1987 that shows an offering: https://books.google.com/books?id=x1yigTsvZxsC=RA1-PA475=5n4IGUBIIU=Optisys%20%22Phoenix%22=RA1-PA475#v=onepage Is anyone familiar with this stuff? --Chuck
Wanted: Info on Optisys/Optidisk WORM file system
I have a bunch of Panasonic/Matsushita 470/940 MB phase-change WORM discs here--and the appropriate drive (Panasonic LF-5010 SCSI-2) to read them. Unlike CD-R media, however, the format of these discs is not anything standard--they were essentially treated as hard disks. So, adding a file involves copying the directory and then adding the file information to the copy. The same applies, of course, for file deletion. If the drive tries to read a (1,024 byte) sector that hasn't been written to, it will get an error after a number of retries. I should emphasize that this drive is *not* fast--throughput seems to be on the order of a floppy disk. I can probably (with a bit of head-scratching) figure out the methodology behind this system, but I'm giving a shout-out to see if this rings any bells. Phase-change WORM did not enjoy a long life in the world, being superseded by rewritable media (both CD-RW and MO). As a point of reference, here's the data from sector 1 of a sample disc (Sector 0 is not used): > 0400 04 0d 04 16 00 0f 0a fe 02 00 20 03 00 03 48 47 |.. ...HG| > 0410 49 42 32 2e 31 31 2d 30 33 2e 30 30 43 72 65 61 |IB2.11-03.00Crea| > 0420 74 65 64 3a 20 54 68 72 20 32 32 20 41 70 72 20 |ted: Thr 22 Apr | > 0430 31 39 39 33 20 20 20 20 20 31 35 3a 20 32 2e 32 |1993 15: 2.2| > 0440 38 3a 35 31 20 20 20 20 4f 70 74 69 73 79 73 20 |8:51Optisys | > 0450 4f 70 74 69 44 69 73 6b 20 28 43 29 20 43 6f 70 |OptiDisk (C) Cop| > 0460 79 72 69 67 68 74 20 31 39 38 37 20 2d 20 31 39 |yright 1987 - 19| > 0470 39 31 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 |91 | > 0480 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 || If nothing turns up in the community, I'll work out the format and make details available (as I understand them). TIA --Chuck
