Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
Ive got a large sgi altix 350 machine running here almost 24/7, uses quite a bit of power. Rivals the 2 air conditioners on power consumption. Power is not an issue, if i do get something bigger then ill just run the altix less and power up the vax. New house has an air conditioned office in the garage, now would be the best time to get something big i think, but if it is not close it will have to be shipped which would be costly. Maybe ill start off small...
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
It's not just a matter of size, but also of maintenance. Tony says, I have the docs, I can maintain it - but do you want to chase down a logic defect among a gazillion small- and medium-scale integration ICs? And the bus connections? And the wire wrap? And the microcode? (I have done this.) After restoring the VAX-11/780-5 at the Living Computer Museum and running it for some time, we moved it to a new home. It took several days to get it running again, reseating board, ensuring that power connections were tight and secure - dealing with a creaky old machine that was, in truth, once a creaky new machine. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a VAX-11/780 to be a 'bookend' system next to my VAX 6000-660. I would love to win the lottery so I could afford the space, the power, and the time. But after I fantasize a bit about that, I go fire up a VAXstation, or my VAX 4000/300, or the SIMH session I have running on OpenBSD on a G4 iBook (because I can). Yes, start off small, and if the bug bites you, swing for the fences! IMHO, YMMV, MOUSE -- Ian On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:17 AM, devin davison lyokob...@gmail.com wrote: Ive got a large sgi altix 350 machine running here almost 24/7, uses quite a bit of power. Rivals the 2 air conditioners on power consumption. Power is not an issue, if i do get something bigger then ill just run the altix less and power up the vax. New house has an air conditioned office in the garage, now would be the best time to get something big i think, but if it is not close it will have to be shipped which would be costly. Maybe ill start off small... -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School http://ischool.uw.edu Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal http://tribunalvoices.org Value Sensitive Design Research Lab http://vsdesign.org University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: Only Nixon could go to China.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
william degnan wrote: I recently got a Microvax 3100 and a VAX 4000-200, very pleased with how easy they are to work with. I have had a lot more issues with Alpahservers. VAX/Aphas running one flavor or another of openVMS. I agree with Ian, think the 3100's are a good starter VAX. My 3100 system has two SCSI external drives to beef it up. You get what you pay for, try to find something in nice shape that works and pay a little extra. My opinion. Bill At one time, it was possible to get considerably more than you pay for. I've got several VAX 2000 / 3100 / 4000 systems. All were freebies / scrounged / rescue machines. A few have battery corrosion issues but most of them work fine. Unfortunately, ebay, along with the sources drying up has probably greatly reduced the likelyhood of anything like them turning up for free now. If you do get something in this line, remove the battery and put up with it not keeping time or boot settings when switched off. Regards. Peter Coghlan.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On 29 June 2015 at 23:04, Johnny Billquist b...@update.uu.se wrote: I don't remember if I have the printsets for the 8650, but we (Update) sure have quite a lot of documentation for it. IIRC I do have some 8600 *training* printsets which I scanned and made available years ago. I think some *real* printsets are available on bitsavers.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
Well if we're all putting down markers, I have an 11/780 and /730; I'd love a /750 to round out the collection. I used to have one, back in mid 1990s it was one of the first machines I collected... Got it up and running VMS, then loaned it to a friend, forgot to ask for it back, lost touch with friend... Mike On Jul 1, 2015 11:48 AM, Peter Coghlan cct...@beyondthepale.ie wrote: william degnan wrote: I recently got a Microvax 3100 and a VAX 4000-200, very pleased with how easy they are to work with. I have had a lot more issues with Alpahservers. VAX/Aphas running one flavor or another of openVMS. I agree with Ian, think the 3100's are a good starter VAX. My 3100 system has two SCSI external drives to beef it up. You get what you pay for, try to find something in nice shape that works and pay a little extra. My opinion. Bill At one time, it was possible to get considerably more than you pay for. I've got several VAX 2000 / 3100 / 4000 systems. All were freebies / scrounged / rescue machines. A few have battery corrosion issues but most of them work fine. Unfortunately, ebay, along with the sources drying up has probably greatly reduced the likelyhood of anything like them turning up for free now. If you do get something in this line, remove the battery and put up with it not keeping time or boot settings when switched off. Regards. Peter Coghlan.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Peter Coghlan cct...@beyondthepale.ie wrote: william degnan wrote: I recently got a Microvax 3100 and a VAX 4000-200, very pleased with how easy they are to work with. I have had a lot more issues with Alpahservers. VAX/Aphas running one flavor or another of openVMS. I agree with Ian, think the 3100's are a good starter VAX. My 3100 system has two SCSI external drives to beef it up. You get what you pay for, try to find something in nice shape that works and pay a little extra. My opinion. Bill At one time, it was possible to get considerably more than you pay for. I've got several VAX 2000 / 3100 / 4000 systems. All were freebies / scrounged / rescue machines. A few have battery corrosion issues but most of them work fine. Unfortunately, ebay, along with the sources drying up has probably greatly reduced the likelyhood of anything like them turning up for free now. If you do get something in this line, remove the battery and put up with it not keeping time or boot settings when switched off. I found that for some MicroVAXen, such as my 4000-300, there is a Panasonic cordless phone battery that almost exactly fits where the original TOY battery does, and the connector is the same! I've mentioned it here on CC, so the part number should be in the archives. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School http://ischool.uw.edu Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal http://tribunalvoices.org Value Sensitive Design Research Lab http://vsdesign.org University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: Only Nixon could go to China.
RE: Where to get a Vax or microvax
I found that for some MicroVAXen, such as my 4000-300, there is a Panasonic cordless phone battery that almost exactly fits where the original TOY battery does, and the connector is the same! I've mentioned it here on CC, so the part number should be in the archives. Yes, I have done something similar. Here in the UK Maplin sells these, although they are relatively expensive. Regards Rob
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
thanks again. I will. I guess I should check my 4000-200 too. On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 11:33 PM, Glen Slick glen.sl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 8:23 PM, william degnan billdeg...@gmail.com wrote: You're saying yes there is a battery in this machine? MicroVAX 3100, VAXserver 3100, InfoServer 100 and InfoServer 150/150 VXT Maintenance Guide EK-A0372-MG.B01 http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/MDS-1997-10/cd1/VOL001/0357.PDF Pages 5-25, 5-26 (page 166, 167 of the PDF) 5.2.11 Battery Pack Removal Always good to remove those before they leak and damage anything.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 8:23 PM, william degnan billdeg...@gmail.com wrote: You're saying yes there is a battery in this machine? MicroVAX 3100, VAXserver 3100, InfoServer 100 and InfoServer 150/150 VXT Maintenance Guide EK-A0372-MG.B01 http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/MDS-1997-10/cd1/VOL001/0357.PDF Pages 5-25, 5-26 (page 166, 167 of the PDF) 5.2.11 Battery Pack Removal Always good to remove those before they leak and damage anything.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 7:13 PM, william degnan billdeg...@gmail.com wrote: The Microvax 3100 model DV-31BT4-A - what number is that model? Originally I thought it was a 30 but then I found that there are 3100-30 nameplates, so I must be wrong. Was there just a plain vanilla Microvax 3100? Now you have me thinking I need to check for a battery. I need to track down the hardware ref but I am unsure other than open it to see for myself. I just went and took a look at one of my MicroVAX 3100 Model 20 boxes. The label on the back says Model DV-31BT1-A. No idea what the difference might be between that and a DV-31BT4-A. The badge on the front only says MicroVAX 3100 just like your picture here: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=604 When you power it on what does it say for the KA**-* CPU version? If it says KA41-A then it is a Model 20. A KA41-D would be a Model 20e. Or if you were to open it up and look at the part number on the CPU board: 54-18856-01 MicroVAX 3100 Model 10 / Model 20 KA41-AA (90ns) 54-18856-02 VAXserver 3100 Model 10 / Model 20 KA41-BA (90ns) 54-18856-04 MicroVAX 3100 Model 10e / Model 20e KA41-DA (60ns) 54-18856-05 VAXserver 3100 Model 10e / Model 20e KA41-EA (60ns) 70-28103-01 InfoServer 100 KA41-CA 54-18856-06 InfoServer 150 Reference: MicroVAX 3100 / VAXserver 3100 / InfoServer 100 SYSTEMS Illustrated Parts Breakdown EK-A0372-IP-003 A0372IP3.PDF
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
Oh, a couple people asked my location. I'm in Vero Beach Florida.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
ok. I will check it asap. Thanks for the info. basically this is a box turns on and works...so I have not spent much time other than just change the PW and access the system, connect to the internet quickly. You're saying yes there is a battery in this machine? On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:57 PM, Glen Slick glen.sl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 7:13 PM, william degnan billdeg...@gmail.com wrote: The Microvax 3100 model DV-31BT4-A - what number is that model? Originally I thought it was a 30 but then I found that there are 3100-30 nameplates, so I must be wrong. Was there just a plain vanilla Microvax 3100? Now you have me thinking I need to check for a battery. I need to track down the hardware ref but I am unsure other than open it to see for myself. I just went and took a look at one of my MicroVAX 3100 Model 20 boxes. The label on the back says Model DV-31BT1-A. No idea what the difference might be between that and a DV-31BT4-A. The badge on the front only says MicroVAX 3100 just like your picture here: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=604 When you power it on what does it say for the KA**-* CPU version? If it says KA41-A then it is a Model 20. A KA41-D would be a Model 20e. Or if you were to open it up and look at the part number on the CPU board: 54-18856-01 MicroVAX 3100 Model 10 / Model 20 KA41-AA (90ns) 54-18856-02 VAXserver 3100 Model 10 / Model 20 KA41-BA (90ns) 54-18856-04 MicroVAX 3100 Model 10e / Model 20e KA41-DA (60ns) 54-18856-05 VAXserver 3100 Model 10e / Model 20e KA41-EA (60ns) 70-28103-01 InfoServer 100 KA41-CA 54-18856-06 InfoServer 150 Reference: MicroVAX 3100 / VAXserver 3100 / InfoServer 100 SYSTEMS Illustrated Parts Breakdown EK-A0372-IP-003 A0372IP3.PDF
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
I take it the buried vax 11/780 you found has been sold off by now? I would love to have one of the original larger machines such as the 780, although one of the smaller desktop machines would probably be a more sane decision to start off with.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
The Microvax 3100 model DV-31BT4-A - what number is that model? Originally I thought it was a 30 but then I found that there are 3100-30 nameplates, so I must be wrong. Was there just a plain vanilla Microvax 3100? Now you have me thinking I need to check for a battery. I need to track down the hardware ref but I am unsure other than open it to see for myself. On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Robert Jarratt robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com wrote: I found that for some MicroVAXen, such as my 4000-300, there is a Panasonic cordless phone battery that almost exactly fits where the original TOY battery does, and the connector is the same! I've mentioned it here on CC, so the part number should be in the archives. Yes, I have done something similar. Here in the UK Maplin sells these, although they are relatively expensive. Regards Rob
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On Jul 1, 2015 7:13 PM, william degnan billdeg...@gmail.com wrote: The Microvax 3100 model DV-31BT4-A - what number is that model? Originally I thought it was a 30 but then I found that there are 3100-30 nameplates, so I must be wrong. Was there just a plain vanilla Microvax 3100? Now you have me thinking I need to check for a battery. I need to track down the hardware ref but I am unsure other than open it to see for myself. The KA41-A was either a MicroVAX 3100 Model 10 or a Model 20 depending on which box it was in. I have a couple 3100 Model 20 and an InfoServer 100 which is the same hardware with different firmware. http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/microvaxes.html#section:microvaxes
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
Not that I doubt you but where is the DV-31BT4-A specifically referenced? How do you know that this is the KA41-A 10 or 20? On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:23 PM, Glen Slick glen.sl...@gmail.com wrote: On Jul 1, 2015 7:13 PM, william degnan billdeg...@gmail.com wrote: The Microvax 3100 model DV-31BT4-A - what number is that model? Originally I thought it was a 30 but then I found that there are 3100-30 nameplates, so I must be wrong. Was there just a plain vanilla Microvax 3100? Now you have me thinking I need to check for a battery. I need to track down the hardware ref but I am unsure other than open it to see for myself. The KA41-A was either a MicroVAX 3100 Model 10 or a Model 20 depending on which box it was in. I have a couple 3100 Model 20 and an InfoServer 100 which is the same hardware with different firmware. http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/microvaxes.html#section:microvaxes
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On Tue, 6/30/15, Vincent Slyngstad v.slyngs...@frontier.com wrote: I'll see if I can breed the one I just got. :) Do *not* post pictures. I'm still trying to forget seeing the ones from that other guy. Don't worry. I don't have any plans to cross breed it with myself. Besides I doubt VMS would run very well on a machine that shared any of my absent minded tendencies. BLS
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
From: Brian L. Stuart: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 5:49 PM I'll see if I can breed the one I just got. :) Do *not* post pictures. I'm still trying to forget seeing the ones from that other guy. Vince
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
I've been saying for some time that I think VAXen breed in the corners - I don't quite know where all of these VAXstations came from. (I still want a VLC, though - just saying.) -- Ian On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 6:57 PM, Ethan Dicks ethan.di...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Fred Cisin ci...@xenosoft.com wrote: If you have some storage, then you can lose a microcomputer. Oh, yeah. If you lose a minicomputer, then you have a lot of storage. I recently found an 11/730 I thought I had to get rid of in 1994... (turns out I got rid of a spare we bought to harvest parts from. I kept the working one. Now to refurb the TU58) If you lose a mainframe, then you have ENOUGH storage. Hasn't happened yet. -ethan -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School http://ischool.uw.edu Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal http://tribunalvoices.org Value Sensitive Design Research Lab http://vsdesign.org University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: Only Nixon could go to China.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
they are known to multiply on their own... Clearly someone who has one (or better more) 780s (or 730s) needs to start breeding them for the rest of us. I guess to be fair I should offer that if anyone wants a 3600 and they can reproduce asexually, I'll see if I can breed the one I just got. :) BLS
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
If you have some storage, then you can lose a microcomputer. If you lose a minicomputer, then you have a lot of storage. If you lose a mainframe, then you have ENOUGH storage.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:23 , Guy Sotomayor g...@shiresoft.com wrote: You *know* you have too much stuff and it's packed too tightly when you can lose a VAX 11/780! This reminds me of when I was exploring a surplus yard, and found a *fire truck* buried in a pile. Walked right by it a few times before I noticed it. I also lusted after an 11/780 as my first VAX, but compromised on a much smaller and slower, but much more practical 11/730 system when one happened to turn up. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
1) Start small. You can always add to the collection later.That often occurs, sometimes with accompanying amnesia of the actual transaction. 2) If you possess genes for “like to take things apart” and “ability to put things back together *** ” start with a Q-Bus VAX. The number and types of Q-Bus boards is very large. 3) If you don’t have both genes, start with a small MicroVAX 3100 or VAXstation equivalent. *** The gene for the ability to have it work after you put it back together is rare and hence optional. Whatever you do, have a good adventure. Jerry j...@ieee.org
RE: Where to get a Vax or microvax
-Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Blair Sent: 30 June 2015 19:10 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:23 , Guy Sotomayor g...@shiresoft.com wrote: You *know* you have too much stuff and it's packed too tightly when you can lose a VAX 11/780! This reminds me of when I was exploring a surplus yard, and found a *fire truck* buried in a pile. Walked right by it a few times before I noticed it. I also lusted after an 11/780 as my first VAX, but compromised on a much smaller and slower, but much more practical 11/730 system when one happened to turn up. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/ I think if I had the opportunity to own a 780 I would do my best to *make* space for it, although I fear it would mean having to rent storage space. I'd love a 730 too. I am still incredulous that someone could lose or not realise they had a second 780! :-) Regards Rob
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
I still think I would enjoy acquiring an 11/780 series machine someday, when my wallet recharges and I've had time to excavate enough room out in my barn. But for now, I'm pretty stoked just to have my little 11/730. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On Jun 29, 2015, at 01:22 , devin davison lyokob...@gmail.com wrote: My main place for looking for hardware has been ebay, although most of what im seeing is untested and expensive. Is there a better place to find older machines like this? Back to the original topic: By posting your interest in joining the VAX club here, you've already taken the first step towards getting one. As I got into retrocomputing a couple of years ago, I found that things started finding their way to me once the established collectors learned that I was looking for them. Keep your eyes open and be patient, and good hunting to you! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
they are known to multiply on their own... On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:14 PM, Guy Sotomayor g...@shiresoft.com wrote: On 6/30/15 4:08 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: I think if I had the opportunity to own a 780 I would do my best to *make* space for it, although I fear it would mean having to rent storage space. I'd love a 730 too. I am still incredulous that someone could lose or not realise they had a second 780! :-) Regards Rob Actually at one point I had 4 (or was it 5?) 11/78x machines. Some were 11/780s, one was an 11/780-5 and one was an 11/785. When I moved out of my shop, I put everything into storage. To keep the number of storage spaces at a minimum, I had to pack everything *tight*. Over the years, I sold some of them off and lost track of how many remained in storage. I knew that there was one in storage but as I was unpacking for the most recent move, I found that there were actually 2. TTFN - Guy
Where to get a Vax or microvax
I have had an interest in the DEC VAX line of computers for some time now and am trying to find a good place to get a system to start out with. The main pourpose being to have a machine to use VMS on. I have been running VMS on emulated hardware via SIMH, however i would like to move to running on real hardware. What would be the best machine for a beginner to VAX Hardware to start out with? My main place for looking for hardware has been ebay, although most of what im seeing is untested and expensive. Is there a better place to find older machines like this?
RE: Where to get a Vax or microvax
To give folks an idea of how much stuff I had jammed into my (many) storage units, as I was going through them trying to figure out what I'd keep and what I would dispose of, I found a VAX 11/780 that I didn't know that I had. I knew that I had one in storage as I was digging/sorting I discovered a second 11/780 that I had forgotten was in there. You *know* you have too much stuff and it's packed too tightly when you can lose a VAX 11/780! Kersqueeble! When I moved last year I found an RK05 (drive) that I had forgotten about, but that was about it. No really large machines came out of the woodwork. A tip for anyone moving in the UK. Do as much as you can yourself. I had the misfortune to use a removal company who assured me they could move the stuff and would handle it properly. Result : a heck of a lot of damage that will take years to put right, parts will have to be made from scratch, etc. And absolutely no way to get a penny out of them -tony
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
To give folks an idea of how much stuff I had jammed into my (many) storage units, as I was going through them trying to figure out what I'd keep and what I would dispose of, I found a VAX 11/780 that I didn't know that I had. I knew that I had one in storage as I was digging/sorting I discovered a second 11/780 that I had forgotten was in there. You *know* you have too much stuff and it's packed too tightly when you can lose a VAX 11/780! Ha! Bud sadly, I can relate. I am moving as well, and I am coming across tons (VERY literally) of racks of military radar and radio equipment I forgot I had. The good news is that as I am breaking up my radar and radio collections, I do not have to think too hard about where the stuff is going. It ain't stayin' here! -- Will
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:28 AM, tony duell a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: To give folks an idea of how much stuff I had jammed into my (many) storage units, as I was going through them trying to figure out what I'd keep and what I would dispose of, I found a VAX 11/780 that I didn't know that I had. I knew that I had one in storage as I was digging/sorting I discovered a second 11/780 that I had forgotten was in there. You *know* you have too much stuff and it's packed too tightly when you can lose a VAX 11/780! Kersqueeble! When I moved last year I found an RK05 (drive) that I had forgotten about, but that was about it. No really large machines came out of the woodwork. A tip for anyone moving in the UK. Do as much as you can yourself. I had the misfortune to use a removal company who assured me they could move the stuff and would handle it properly. Result : a heck of a lot of damage that will take years to put right, parts will have to be made from scratch, etc. And absolutely no way to get a penny out of them I think that's universal regardless of where you are located. If it's unusual stuff, then move it yourself (if you're able to). Fortunately had some fore thought prior to my move. So I spent a lot of time sorting and palletizing the smaller stuff (ie anything that wasn't already on casters). I would not have been able to load the truck, drive almost 200 miles, unload and drive back all in the same day if I hadn't already had stuff pre-packaged. TTFN - Guy
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On 2015-06-29 18:08, tony duell wrote: on real hardware. What would be the best machine for a beginner to VAX Hardware to start out with? I think you need to think very carefully about what you want this machine to do. The ideal VAX for me is not going to necessarily be the ideal VAX for you. In general there are 3 classes of VAX that people run at home. There are many other families, but in general they are much rarer, and probably much harder to maintain. The first series are the VAXstations, probably a 3100 of some kind. These are desktop boxes, they are workstations (so you can drive a CRT monitor from them, although they have serial ports too, and AFAIK can use a serial console). They generally have SCSI and ethernet interfaces built in. The downside is that they are somewhat closed machines. You have connectors for a memory board in most of them. You have the SCSI bus for disks. But you don't really have access to the CPU bus to add anything out of the ordinary. This may well not matter to you. The second series are the MicroVAX II/III machines. Normally in a deskside-size cabinet. Normally use a serial terminal, but there are exceptions. Here the CPU is one board, memory is one or 2 more, then separate boards plugging into something called Qbus for everything else. The advantage, of course, is that Qbus is the processor bus so if you need a strange interface you can probably add it. The disadvantage is that finding some of the boards you may want is a pain (Qbus SCSI is often hard to get) The third series I hesitate to mention, as I don't think they're what you are looking for. That's the first ever VAX series, the 11/7xx machines. There are 3 sub-families. The 11/780 was the first It's massive (think large wardrobe just for the CPU) and needs 3 phase mains officially. The upside for a hardware person is that said CPU is massive because it's built from lots of simple, standard, ICs. It's repairable. Very. The 11/750 came next, a bit smaller, but now the CPU is a lot of custom gate array chips. One that I would avoid (yes, I know I'll get flamed for that from all the happy owners). To me the 11/750 is large and doesn't give you anything over a microVAX The third subseries is the 11/730. It's slow. It's very slow. I am told that using the DEC supplied microcode tape it can take 25 minutes to get a boot prompt (!). But it's small, the CPU is one 10.5 high, 19 wide rack mount box. A useable machine fits in a half-height rack. And amazingly this small VAX was built from standard ICs (admittedly a lot of PALs), mostlly. These machines use an expansion bus called Unibus (the 11/780 and 11/750 also have MassBus for disks). Unibus is similar in concept to Qbus, so again you would have a board for ethernet, one for serial terminals, etc. For me, a hardware hacker with too many machines as it is, the 11/730 fits the bill. I can accomodate it (I doubt I could fit an 11/780 in anywhere) and I can hang a logic analyser off it if I want to. For you, I think you should probably look towards a VAXstation to start with. But I might be very wrong... So, where would you place a VAX8650 in there? Or the 6000- or 7000-series? :-D (Or, drool, a 9000?) Johnny
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On 2015-06-29 21:35, tony duell wrote: Well, ok, if your list was intended as a first VAX only list, then That is what I believe the OP was asking for, Yes. But I would never dream of suggesting a VAX-11/780 as a first VAX either... I think most people would not even know what to do if presented with 500 Kg of computer... Not to mention all the subsystems you need to figure out, learn, connect and get running... It's not exactly like a workstation or a PC. fair enough. I would not consider most of those machines as good first VAXen either. Although, the 6000 is actually not that hard, nor some of the small 8000-machines, such as the 8200. The 6000 series are quite big cabinets and as a first VAX it's hard for me to see the great advantage over a microVAX or a VAXstation. They are small compared to a VAX-11/780. The problem with lots of the more modern machines though, are that they essentially are fine if they work, but if they break, you'll have a hard time to fix them. That goes both for the 6000 series as well as all the pizza boxes. My view is that there are only 2 VAXen series that I would want to run at home. For me. That is machines where component-level investigation and repair are very possible, Those series are the 11/780 (including the 11/782 and 11/785, of course) and the 11/730 (including 11/725). As I don't have space for the former, I intend to run the latter. But my requirements and interests are likely to be very different from other people's hence my initial comments. The 11/782 would become very big, and use even more power. Not that an 11/780 are small to start with, but we're talking about roughly doubling the size and power consumption here... Not to mention being a very odd machine from a multiprocessor point of view as well. Not something I would recommend unless you are seriously interested in that specific machine. The 11/730 and 11/725 are probably among the last machines I would ever want to have. We all have different dreams... The 8650 is sweet. I could possibly like a 9000 even more... Thing about the VAXstations is that there are quite a few about that can be raided for spares. There is a printset for at least one of them on bitsavers, so I would guess finding a faulty IC is not going to be impossible. I refuse to actually suggst b***d-sw*pp**g but you know what I mean Yeah. VAXstations makes a lot of sense for someone who just wants to run a VAX and play around. The fact that you can get spares pretty easy most of the time has its points. If you like playing around with the hardware as well as the software, then maybe there are more interesting machines around than the pizzabox ones. I have never seen a printset for a 6000, 7000, 8650, etc machine. Do they exist? I doubt it for the 6000 series. I don't remember if I have the printsets for the 8650, but we (Update) sure have quite a lot of documentation for it. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip - B. Idol
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
Re: 11/780 as first VAX: no. That's just silly. I restored a pair of 11/785s (one a field-updated /780) for LCM. They're a wonderful machine, and I really really want one - after I win the lottery and can afford the power and space for it and can take the time to get and keep it running. Get a VAXstation of some sort or another. Even if you have a low end one-lunged 3100, or even a 2000, you can run VMS on real VAX hardware and have fun. I would actually suggest a 3100 over just about anything else because you can find expansion cases for it (typically containing SCSI drives, CDROM drives and even cartridge tape drives) pretty easily and cheaply, and everything just plugs in. If you want one of the 'good' ones, you'll fight tooth and nail on ePay, but if your goal is to enjoy running VMS on real hardware, you can buy one of the 'OK' ones for a lot less. Then, if the bug bites you and you really want something bigger, I'd look for one of the pedestal machines - I really love my 4000/300 and, although you'll pay through the nose to ship it, it's a serious VAX that can Do Stuff. Then, if you discover you're totally insane, you can look about for Big VAXen and subsidize your local power company. -- Ian On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Johnny Billquist b...@update.uu.se wrote: On 2015-06-29 21:35, tony duell wrote: Well, ok, if your list was intended as a first VAX only list, then That is what I believe the OP was asking for, Yes. But I would never dream of suggesting a VAX-11/780 as a first VAX either... I think most people would not even know what to do if presented with 500 Kg of computer... Not to mention all the subsystems you need to figure out, learn, connect and get running... It's not exactly like a workstation or a PC. fair enough. I would not consider most of those machines as good first VAXen either. Although, the 6000 is actually not that hard, nor some of the small 8000-machines, such as the 8200. The 6000 series are quite big cabinets and as a first VAX it's hard for me to see the great advantage over a microVAX or a VAXstation. They are small compared to a VAX-11/780. The problem with lots of the more modern machines though, are that they essentially are fine if they work, but if they break, you'll have a hard time to fix them. That goes both for the 6000 series as well as all the pizza boxes. My view is that there are only 2 VAXen series that I would want to run at home. For me. That is machines where component-level investigation and repair are very possible, Those series are the 11/780 (including the 11/782 and 11/785, of course) and the 11/730 (including 11/725). As I don't have space for the former, I intend to run the latter. But my requirements and interests are likely to be very different from other people's hence my initial comments. The 11/782 would become very big, and use even more power. Not that an 11/780 are small to start with, but we're talking about roughly doubling the size and power consumption here... Not to mention being a very odd machine from a multiprocessor point of view as well. Not something I would recommend unless you are seriously interested in that specific machine. The 11/730 and 11/725 are probably among the last machines I would ever want to have. We all have different dreams... The 8650 is sweet. I could possibly like a 9000 even more... Thing about the VAXstations is that there are quite a few about that can be raided for spares. There is a printset for at least one of them on bitsavers, so I would guess finding a faulty IC is not going to be impossible. I refuse to actually suggst b***d-sw*pp**g but you know what I mean Yeah. VAXstations makes a lot of sense for someone who just wants to run a VAX and play around. The fact that you can get spares pretty easy most of the time has its points. If you like playing around with the hardware as well as the software, then maybe there are more interesting machines around than the pizzabox ones. I have never seen a printset for a 6000, 7000, 8650, etc machine. Do they exist? I doubt it for the 6000 series. I don't remember if I have the printsets for the 8650, but we (Update) sure have quite a lot of documentation for it. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip - B. Idol -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School http://ischool.uw.edu Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal http://tribunalvoices.org Value Sensitive Design Research Lab http://vsdesign.org University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: Only Nixon could go to China.
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
I recently got a Microvax 3100 and a VAX 4000-200, very pleased with how easy they are to work with. I have had a lot more issues with Alpahservers. VAX/Aphas running one flavor or another of openVMS. I agree with Ian, think the 3100's are a good starter VAX. My 3100 system has two SCSI external drives to beef it up. You get what you pay for, try to find something in nice shape that works and pay a little extra. My opinion. Bill On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Ian S. King isk...@uw.edu wrote: Re: 11/780 as first VAX: no. That's just silly. I restored a pair of 11/785s (one a field-updated /780) for LCM. They're a wonderful machine, and I really really want one - after I win the lottery and can afford the power and space for it and can take the time to get and keep it running. Get a VAXstation of some sort or another. Even if you have a low end one-lunged 3100, or even a 2000, you can run VMS on real VAX hardware and have fun. I would actually suggest a 3100 over just about anything else because you can find expansion cases for it (typically containing SCSI drives, CDROM drives and even cartridge tape drives) pretty easily and cheaply, and everything just plugs in. If you want one of the 'good' ones, you'll fight tooth and nail on ePay, but if your goal is to enjoy running VMS on real hardware, you can buy one of the 'OK' ones for a lot less. Then, if the bug bites you and you really want something bigger, I'd look for one of the pedestal machines - I really love my 4000/300 and, although you'll pay through the nose to ship it, it's a serious VAX that can Do Stuff. Then, if you discover you're totally insane, you can look about for Big VAXen and subsidize your local power company. -- Ian On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Johnny Billquist b...@update.uu.se wrote: On 2015-06-29 21:35, tony duell wrote: Well, ok, if your list was intended as a first VAX only list, then That is what I believe the OP was asking for, Yes. But I would never dream of suggesting a VAX-11/780 as a first VAX either... I think most people would not even know what to do if presented with 500 Kg of computer... Not to mention all the subsystems you need to figure out, learn, connect and get running... It's not exactly like a workstation or a PC. fair enough. I would not consider most of those machines as good first VAXen either. Although, the 6000 is actually not that hard, nor some of the small 8000-machines, such as the 8200. The 6000 series are quite big cabinets and as a first VAX it's hard for me to see the great advantage over a microVAX or a VAXstation. They are small compared to a VAX-11/780. The problem with lots of the more modern machines though, are that they essentially are fine if they work, but if they break, you'll have a hard time to fix them. That goes both for the 6000 series as well as all the pizza boxes. My view is that there are only 2 VAXen series that I would want to run at home. For me. That is machines where component-level investigation and repair are very possible, Those series are the 11/780 (including the 11/782 and 11/785, of course) and the 11/730 (including 11/725). As I don't have space for the former, I intend to run the latter. But my requirements and interests are likely to be very different from other people's hence my initial comments. The 11/782 would become very big, and use even more power. Not that an 11/780 are small to start with, but we're talking about roughly doubling the size and power consumption here... Not to mention being a very odd machine from a multiprocessor point of view as well. Not something I would recommend unless you are seriously interested in that specific machine. The 11/730 and 11/725 are probably among the last machines I would ever want to have. We all have different dreams... The 8650 is sweet. I could possibly like a 9000 even more... Thing about the VAXstations is that there are quite a few about that can be raided for spares. There is a printset for at least one of them on bitsavers, so I would guess finding a faulty IC is not going to be impossible. I refuse to actually suggst b***d-sw*pp**g but you know what I mean Yeah. VAXstations makes a lot of sense for someone who just wants to run a VAX and play around. The fact that you can get spares pretty easy most of the time has its points. If you like playing around with the hardware as well as the software, then maybe there are more interesting machines around than the pizzabox ones. I have never seen a printset for a 6000, 7000, 8650, etc machine. Do they exist? I doubt it for the 6000 series. I don't remember if I have the printsets for the 8650, but we (Update) sure have quite a lot of documentation for it. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || I'm on a bus
RE: Where to get a Vax or microvax
Well, ok, if your list was intended as a first VAX only list, then That is what I believe the OP was asking for, Yes. But I would never dream of suggesting a VAX-11/780 as a first VAX either... I think most people would not even know what to do if presented with 500 Kg of computer... Not to mention all the subsystems you need to figure out, learn, connect and get running... It depends a lot of who you are. As I said in my first posting, the ideal VAX for you is not the ideal VAX for me. Personally, I would have considerd an 11/780 as my first VAX, I know what it is like, I can read the printset, I have a good idea what to expect in the circuitry. For me, a VAXstation would have no interest at all. It's not exactly like a workstation or a PC. That is surely a Good Thing :-) The 6000 series are quite big cabinets and as a first VAX it's hard for me to see the great advantage over a microVAX or a VAXstation. They are small compared to a VAX-11/780. True, about the same size as the 11/750. They are still not small, and I can't see what they would have to offer. The 11/782 would become very big, and use even more power. Not that an 11/780 are small to start with, but we're talking about roughly doubling the size and power consumption here... Not to mention being a very odd Yes, it's close to being a pair of 11/780s running in parallel. machine from a multiprocessor point of view as well. Not something I would recommend unless you are seriously interested in that specific machine. Nor would I, but if I had the space (I don't!) I would love one... . The 11/730 and 11/725 are probably among the last machines I would ever Sure it's slow, and there is a major design misfeature -- I mean who seriously uses DRAM as a control store, and then has to halt the CPU to refresh it every few ms. But IMHO fitting the complete VAX CPU onto 3 hex boards using standard ICs (apart from the memory ECC which used the same gate arrays as the 11/750) is an interesting, at least, bit of work. want to have. We all have different dreams... The 8650 is sweet. I could possibly like a 9000 even more... As I keep on saying, and I hope the OP considers this, the ideal VAX depends on who you are. As I want to get inside the CPU with a logic analyser, there are really only 2 series for me to consider. One large, the other slow. As I am short of space and not time it is obvious what I looked for. -tony
RE: Where to get a Vax or microvax
So, where would you place a VAX8650 in there? Or the 6000- or 7000-series? :-D (Or, drool, a 9000?) Those come under the 'many other families' I would argue that those machines are much rarer and much harder to maintain than the 3 families I suggested for a _first_ VAX. In fact having seen inside a 6210 cabinet there is no way I would want to maintain one. Not sure about the 8650, though... If you want to run those at home, fine... If you are offered one, make sure you know what you are taking on. FWIW, I wouldn't recomend a PDP11/45 with only the printset for documentation as a first PDP11 either. But it's what I started with. -tony
RE: Where to get a Vax or microvax
Well, ok, if your list was intended as a first VAX only list, then That is what I believe the OP was asking for, fair enough. I would not consider most of those machines as good first VAXen either. Although, the 6000 is actually not that hard, nor some of the small 8000-machines, such as the 8200. The 6000 series are quite big cabinets and as a first VAX it's hard for me to see the great advantage over a microVAX or a VAXstation. The problem with lots of the more modern machines though, are that they essentially are fine if they work, but if they break, you'll have a hard time to fix them. That goes both for the 6000 series as well as all the pizza boxes. My view is that there are only 2 VAXen series that I would want to run at home. For me. That is machines where component-level investigation and repair are very possible, Those series are the 11/780 (including the 11/782 and 11/785, of course) and the 11/730 (including 11/725). As I don't have space for the former, I intend to run the latter. But my requirements and interests are likely to be very different from other people's hence my initial comments. Thing about the VAXstations is that there are quite a few about that can be raided for spares. There is a printset for at least one of them on bitsavers, so I would guess finding a faulty IC is not going to be impossible. I refuse to actually suggst b***d-sw*pp**g but you know what I mean I have never seen a printset for a 6000, 7000, 8650, etc machine. Do they exist? I doubt it for the 6000 series. -tony
