[cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto
It is indeed strange that, MICROS~1 never seems to acknowledge the existence of the NEC variant. And yet, it made sense to have the same disk format parameters for three sizes of disk. Unfortunately, the otherwise excellent table leaves out the lines for DRIVER.SYS and FORMAT specifiers (if such existed) There are, of course, MANY other variants of MS-DOS disk formats, but mostly created by OEMs, not by Microsoft, and particularly with MS-DOS 2.11 and 3.31 . For example, 80 track 5.25" DD formats, such as Tandy 2000, IBM PC/JX, Dec Rainbow, etc., and 3.5" disks, such as HP, Gavilan, Data General, etc., before DOS 3.20. http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html (includes formats other than MS-DOS, such as CP/M, P-System, NEC and other with the Microsoft "Stand-Alone BASIC") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com anybody remember the numbers for 8"? On 3/2/23 11:02, Ali via cctalk wrote: This is the official KB from MS on the topic: Standard Floppy Disk Formats Supported by MS-DOS On Thu, 2 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Japanese MS-DOS (used on NEC computers, mostly) used 1024 byte sectors in 8", 5.25" and 3.5" media. In fact, most USB floppy adapters support the NEC 1.23M format and Windows NT has understood it (given a capable drive) for many years. It's Microsoft, so why it's not included in the table is beyond me. For example, if you were to use a NEC APC (sold in the US) with 8" drives, you'd find this format. Sector size: 1024 Cluster size: 1024 Sectors/FAT 2 Media byteFE Root directory size 192 --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto
On 3/2/23 11:02, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> anybody remember the numbers for 8"? > > This is the official KB from MS on the topic: > > Standard Floppy Disk Formats Supported by MS-DOS > Japanese MS-DOS (used on NEC computers, mostly) used 1024 byte sectors in 8", 5.25" and 3.5" media. In fact, most USB floppy adapters support the NEC 1.23M format and Windows NT has understood it (given a capable drive) for many years. It's Microsoft, so why it's not included in the table is beyond me. For example, if you were to use a NEC APC (sold in the US) with 8" drives, you'd find this format. Sector size: 1024 Cluster size: 1024 Sectors/FAT 2 Media byteFE Root directory size 192 --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto
> anybody remember the numbers for 8"? This is the official KB from MS on the topic: Standard Floppy Disk Formats Supported by MS-DOS === Article ID: 75131 - View products that this article applies to. This article was previously published under Q75131 SUMMARY By using DRIVER.SYS and/or the DRIVPARM command in the CONFIG.SYS file, you can select a variety of floppy disk formats for use with MS-DOS. The tables below describe the standard floppy disk formats supported by various versions of MS-DOS and show the switches used for DRIVER.SYS and FORMAT.EXE. MORE INFORMATION The tables below include information on the following: Number of heads (sides) Number of cylinders (tracks) Number of sectors per track Total number of sectors Number of free sectors Number of sectors per cluster Total number of clusters Number of sectors per FAT (file allocation table) Number of FAT copies Number of root directory sectors Number of reserved sectors Number of hidden sectors Number of bytes per sector Number of bytes per cluster Number of root directory entries The media descriptor byte for each format What recording density was used to create the floppy disk Under what MS-DOS version this format was first supported What parameter to use with DRIVER.SYS for this format What parameter to use with FORMAT.EXE for this format Whether or not the changed-diskette line is supported NOTES 1.The switches shown for DRIVER.SYS can also be used for DRIVPARM. Example: The line "Device=C:\DOS\DRIVER.SYS /D:1 /F:9 /C" in the CONFIG.SYS file specifies that floppy disk drive B is a 2.88-megabyte (MB) 3.5-inch floppy disk drive that supports the changed-diskette line. Example: The line "DRIVPARM=/D:1 /F:9 /C" in the CONFIG.SYS file specifies that the floppy disk drive B is a 2.88-MB 3.5-inch floppy disk drive that supports the Change line. Example: The command "FORMAT B: /F:720" formats a double-sided double-density 720K floppy disk in a 1.44-MB or 2.88-MB 3.5-inch floppy disk drive that is installed in the computer as floppy disk drive B. 2.The following charts refer to "Clusters," whereas MS-DOS 5.0 and later refer to "Allocation Units." These two terms are equivalent and describe the same data structure. 3.Multiple formats with the same DRIVER.SYS switch is NOT an error. 4.Multiple formats with the same media descriptor byte does NOT indicate an error. 5.Valid media descriptor bytes for MS-DOS are listed below: Byte Capacity Media Size and Type --- F0 2.88 MB3.5-inch, 2-sided, 36-sector F0 1.44 MB3.5-inch, 2-sided, 18-sector F9 720K 3.5-inch, 2-sided, 9-sector F9 1.2 MB 5.25-inch, 2-sided, 15-sector FD 360K 5.25-inch, 2-sided, 9-sector FF 320K 5.25-inch, 2-sided, 8-sector FC 180K 5.25-inch, 1-sided, 9-sector FE 160K 5.25-inch, 1-sided, 8-sector FE 250K 8-inch,1-sided, single-density FD 500K 8-inch,2-sided, single-density FE 1.2 MB 8-inch,2-sided, double-density F8 - Fixed disk 6.Both track and cylinder numbers are zero-based. For example, 360K 5.25-inch floppy disks have 40 tracks numbered 0 through 39. Similarly, head numbers and side numbers are also zero-based. For example, 360K 5.25-inch floppy disks have sides 0 and 1 (corresponding to heads 0 and 1). However sectors are one-based. For example, 360K 5.25-inch floppy disks have sectors numbered 1 through 9. Standard Floppy Disk Formats Supported by MS-DOS 3.5 Inch - Formatted Capacity 720K 1.44 MB 2.88 MB # of Heads (Sides) 22 2 # of Cyls (Tracks)80 8080 # of Sectors/Track 9 1836 Total # of Sectors 1440 2880 5760 # of Free Sectors 1426 2847 5726 # Sectors/Cluster 21 2 Total # of Clusters 713 2847 2863 # Sectors/FAT 39 9 # of FAT Copies22 2 # of Root Dir Sectors 7 1415 # Reserved Sectors 11 1 # of Hidden Sectors00 0 # of Bytes/Sector512 512 512 # of Bytes/Cluster 1024 512 1024 # Root Dir Entries 112 224 240 Media Descriptor F9 F0F0 Recorded Density Double High High MS-DOS Version Began3.20 3.30 5.00 DRIVER.SYS Switch /F:2 /F:7 /F:9 FORMAT.EXE Switch /F:720 /F:1.44 /F:2.88
[cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto
Resending Part 2 BTW, for the parameters for DRIVER.SYS, you can abbreviate the /t:80 /s:9 to "/F:2" (and later, "/F:720") /0 was "360K" /1 was "1.2M" /2 was "720K" anybody remember the numbers for 8"? /d:2 meant you wanted the logical drive to use the third physical drive, /d:3 meant you wanted the logical drive to use the fourth physical drive, /d:1 meant you wanted the logical drive to use the second physical drive, /d:0 meant you wanted the logical drive to use the firs physical drive, which you could do if you used a "360K" format on the disk in the "720K" drive in A: during booting. Machines that had "CMOS Setup" that supported 3.5" disk drives would let you use a 3.5" drive as A: And 5.25" "Quad" drives (NON-HD 96tpi, such as Tandon TM100-4, Teac 55F, or Shugart/matsushits 465) was generally indistinguishable to the PC from a 3.5" "720K". TRIVIAL nits on the webpage (URL that you posted): TRS80 Model II was 8" drives. (model 1 and 3 were 5.25") Although I have heard of somebody kludging "1.2M" drives on one, I haven't seen it. The picture identifying locations shows the FDC on the motherboard. It was on the FDC board, and "power connectors" is pointing at the drive internal data connectors; the power connectors are not visible in the picture, because they are underneath. "Ive heard stories that the 37-pin external adapter can be used to read/write older 8 disk drives, but I never saw this in person. 8 disk drives were a bit before my time." modifications are needed to the FDC board to do so. Flagstaff Engineering did so, and sold a modified FDC plus 8" drive. The configuration switches on the motherboard of 5150 and 5160 can be set for up to four drives, and those should be discussed? Yes, as mentioned, with extra floppy drives, demented INSTALL programs, such as MS-DOS 6.00, will insist on trying to install to your third floppy. SUGGESTION: a cheap vise works adequately for crimping flat IDC cables; I've even done them with a block of wood and a hammer, and with vise-grips. NOTE: when I say "720K", "360K", "1.2M", I am using those as NAMES for those disks, formats, and drives, not as necessarily the capacity. I am well aware that those names don't acknowledge that the "720K" drive is capable of other formats, ranging from 640K to 800K, (or even more with short gaps, mixed sector sizes, and/or other tricks). But, I have yet to see, other than listing sample model numbers, names for the drive that are simple, and less ambiguous. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto
I sent this before, but it didn't show up on the list;
Part 1;
Which versions of DOS let you boot off B: ?
Obviously, NO command that you run in DOS (which would be after it has
booted), will change the boot sequence, which is before DOS is present.
Nor will such a change last through a boot (although MICROS~1 could have
included a tepid/partial boot, if they had wanted to.)
DRIVER.SYS achieved prominence in DOS 3.20. PC-DOS 3.20 was the first time
that IBM supported a 3.5" ("720K") drive. Several other companies, other than
IBM, already used 3.5" drives for laptops, such as Data General, Gavilan, etc.
with their own drivers in MS-DOS, particularly version 2.11, which was similar
to 2.10, but used by OEMs that needed to customize MS- DOS. In many cases,
the 3.5" disk formats that those companies created were different from what is
supported in DOS 3.20 http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html
IBM PC/JX was an IBM machine with 5.25" "720K" drives, but was never sold in
USA.
Because IBM's 5170, and most already existing 286 machines, did not include
"720K" as any of the options in the "CMOS Setup" for identifying what kind of
drive each physical drive was, DRIVER.SYS permitted creating a
logical/virtual/shadow drive that would share a physical drive, as E:, F:,
etc.
LASTDRIVE was also needed if you already had more than two floppy drives and a
HDD, to permit assigning drive letters past D:
Another alternative was DRIVPARM ! It was a CONFIG.SYS command to alter the
parameters of floppy drives, WITHOUT creating any new logical drives or drive
letters! DOS 3.20 and onwards.
Something that has always confused me:
DRIVPARM is documented in MS-DOS 3.20, but is not mentioned in the PC-DOS 3.20
documantation.
I used MS-DOS with DRIVPARM on a generic 286 machine, and it worked!
I used PC-DOS with DRIVPARM on a generic 286 machine, and it worked!
I used MS-DOS with DRIVPARM on a genuine 5170, and it failed, with a "BAD
CONFIG.SYS COMMAND" message (possibly mistaken on the exact wording)
I used PC-DOS with DRIVPARM on a genuine 5170, and it failed, with a "BAD
CONFIG.SYS COMMAND" message (possibly mistaken on the exact wording)
I used MS-DOS with DRIVPARM on a generic 286, with copy of the 5170 BIOS, and
it failed, with a "BAD CONFIG.SYS COMMAND" message (possibly mistaken on the
exact wording)
I used PC-DOS with DRIVPARM on a generic 286, with copy of the 5170 BIOS, and
it failed, with a "BAD CONFIG.SYS COMMAND" message (possibly mistaken on the
exact wording)
So, therefore, I concluded that DRIVPARM was incompatible with the IBM 5170
BIOS. But present in both MS-DOS 3.20 and PC-DOS 3.20, although it is
UNDOCUMENTED in PC-DOS.
Chuck has mentioned that if you insert 3 Ctrl-A characters, it will work
on most;
DRIVPARM ^A^A^A B: /F:2
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto
On 3/1/23 15:36, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> Chuck once told us that DRIVPARM can be coerced into working on some of
> the systemes that it won't work on, by inserting some Ctrl-A characters;
> DRIVPARM ^A^A^A /D:2 /F:2
>
>
> BTW, FORMAT, DRIVER.SYS uses the tracks and sectors that you specify
> FORMAT E: /T:80 /N:9
> ONLY to select WHICH ONE from the internal list. It WILL NOT let you
> change a format, such as
> FORMAT E: /T:77 /N:8 unless it already has that format somewhere in
> the internal list.
>
> https://retrocmp.de/fdd/8inch/drivparm.htm
> https://retrocmp.de/ms-kb/Q35766%20Supported%20Values%20for%20FORMAT%20:N%20and%20:T%20Switches.txt
>
> /F:3 was once 8" SD
> /F:4 was once 8: DD
> Any machines, other than SCP that still support those?
>
In PC DOS 3.2 and 3.3
When using PC DOS 3.2 or 3.3, DRIVPARM is undocumented but it can be
made to work using this trick. In CONFIG.SYS, type:
Normal DOS 4.0+ DRIVPARM set-up switches.
\/
DRIVPARM ^A^A^A {switches}
/\
Type Ctrl-A, not Shift-6 A. In MS-DOS's Edit, type Ctrl-P
then Ctrl-A (you will see a smiley face on the screen).
>From https://www.doomi.ch/undocumented-dos-commands/
--Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto
Chuck once told us that DRIVPARM can be coerced into working on some of the systemes that it won't work on, by inserting some Ctrl-A characters; DRIVPARM ^A^A^A /D:2 /F:2 BTW, FORMAT, DRIVER.SYS uses the tracks and sectors that you specify FORMAT E: /T:80 /N:9 ONLY to select WHICH ONE from the internal list. It WILL NOT let you change a format, such as FORMAT E: /T:77 /N:8 unless it already has that format somewhere in the internal list. https://retrocmp.de/fdd/8inch/drivparm.htm https://retrocmp.de/ms-kb/Q35766%20Supported%20Values%20for%20FORMAT%20:N%20and%20:T%20Switches.txt /F:3 was once 8" SD /F:4 was once 8: DD Any machines, other than SCP that still support those?
[cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto
Put a B sticker on the drive that boots, done. For a PC and any Tandon drive system there is a mechanical constraint to what drive is the boot drive. Jumpers and cable turn a generic tandon 100-x into the boot drive. It's not a ROM thing. The Osborne I *does* have a built-in ROM key-triggered A/B switch, DEC Robin too, Various others but not the PC BIOS. You could make the disk in drive A bootable, put a minimum OS on it, add a line ATTRIB B:; and PATH B; to an autorxec.bat that allows the computer to.pull most DOS files off the B drive, so you can have max space on the A drive for another program. There are books .from the period full of DOS tricks, but the OS level is not the hardware level. Blah blah Bill On Wed, Mar 1, 2023, 3:26 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Can't help with booting DOS to a B: drive. But, in case of interest - I do > keep the IBM PC 5150 notes here: > Specifically as might be related here, I have some notes on using 4 disk > drives: > > https://voidstar.blog/5150-setting-up-floppy-disk-controller/ > > And main point is, the DOS DRIVER.SYS might let you control the disk drive > letters in a way that > might help in some way. I think it was available pretty early on -- if not > PC-DOS 1.0, at least PC-DOS 2.0. > > DEVICE=\DOS\DRIVER.SYS /d:2 /t:80 /s:9 > DEVICE=\DOS\DRIVER.SYS /d:3 /t:80 /s:9 > > There is also a SUBST command. Can't remember if SUBST lets you override > an existing letter -- I think is probably does. > But if you don't have a B: drive at all, you can do something like: > SUBST B: C:\UTILS > Then the whole B: drive gets substitutes to that given folder. > > > My more main IBM PC 5150 notes are here: > > https://voidstar.blog/ibm-pc-5150-notes/ > > > > On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 5:55 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > Which versions of DOS let you boot off B: ? > > > > CORRECTION: > > Although the default of DOS used to be A: then first HDD (usually C:), it > > is the computer firmware, not DOS that decides that. > > > > The assumption that C: is the HDD can be annoying. I used to use PCs with > > four floppies. If jumpered properly, the HDD was E:. > > > > > > Many "modern" PCs, within the "CMOS" setup, have provision for changing > > the boot sequence. Mostly, in order to default to booting from HDD, > > rather than floppy, but also for CD or USB boot. > > I do not know of any that permit selecting floppy B: for boot, but there > > could exist some with that option, . . . > > > > On a PC with a single physical floppy, asking for any command with B: > will > > trigger a prompt to put the B: disk in drive A:, and have a phantom B: > > that shares the physical drive with A: > > > > Swapping A: and B: is, of course, trivial to do with hardware, and/or > > messing with the cable. (pin 10 of the cable [at the FDC] is A: and 12 > is > > B:, but the usual supplied cables are twisted and missing pins so that > > every drive, on the drive itself is jumpered as if it were B:). An > > untwisted cable, with switch[es] would be one way. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com > > >
[cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto
Can't help with booting DOS to a B: drive. But, in case of interest - I do keep the IBM PC 5150 notes here: Specifically as might be related here, I have some notes on using 4 disk drives: https://voidstar.blog/5150-setting-up-floppy-disk-controller/ And main point is, the DOS DRIVER.SYS might let you control the disk drive letters in a way that might help in some way. I think it was available pretty early on -- if not PC-DOS 1.0, at least PC-DOS 2.0. DEVICE=\DOS\DRIVER.SYS /d:2 /t:80 /s:9 DEVICE=\DOS\DRIVER.SYS /d:3 /t:80 /s:9 There is also a SUBST command. Can't remember if SUBST lets you override an existing letter -- I think is probably does. But if you don't have a B: drive at all, you can do something like: SUBST B: C:\UTILS Then the whole B: drive gets substitutes to that given folder. My more main IBM PC 5150 notes are here: https://voidstar.blog/ibm-pc-5150-notes/ On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 5:55 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Which versions of DOS let you boot off B: ? > > CORRECTION: > Although the default of DOS used to be A: then first HDD (usually C:), it > is the computer firmware, not DOS that decides that. > > The assumption that C: is the HDD can be annoying. I used to use PCs with > four floppies. If jumpered properly, the HDD was E:. > > > Many "modern" PCs, within the "CMOS" setup, have provision for changing > the boot sequence. Mostly, in order to default to booting from HDD, > rather than floppy, but also for CD or USB boot. > I do not know of any that permit selecting floppy B: for boot, but there > could exist some with that option, . . . > > On a PC with a single physical floppy, asking for any command with B: will > trigger a prompt to put the B: disk in drive A:, and have a phantom B: > that shares the physical drive with A: > > Swapping A: and B: is, of course, trivial to do with hardware, and/or > messing with the cable. (pin 10 of the cable [at the FDC] is A: and 12 is > B:, but the usual supplied cables are twisted and missing pins so that > every drive, on the drive itself is jumpered as if it were B:). An > untwisted cable, with switch[es] would be one way. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com >
[cctalk] Re: Booting from B: (Was: Getting QRST files onto
Which versions of DOS let you boot off B: ? CORRECTION: Although the default of DOS used to be A: then first HDD (usually C:), it is the computer firmware, not DOS that decides that. The assumption that C: is the HDD can be annoying. I used to use PCs with four floppies. If jumpered properly, the HDD was E:. Many "modern" PCs, within the "CMOS" setup, have provision for changing the boot sequence. Mostly, in order to default to booting from HDD, rather than floppy, but also for CD or USB boot. I do not know of any that permit selecting floppy B: for boot, but there could exist some with that option, . . . On a PC with a single physical floppy, asking for any command with B: will trigger a prompt to put the B: disk in drive A:, and have a phantom B: that shares the physical drive with A: Swapping A: and B: is, of course, trivial to do with hardware, and/or messing with the cable. (pin 10 of the cable [at the FDC] is A: and 12 is B:, but the usual supplied cables are twisted and missing pins so that every drive, on the drive itself is jumpered as if it were B:). An untwisted cable, with switch[es] would be one way. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
