[cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming
Hi Rich. As an aside, are there any updates as to the fate of the LCM collection? I'd heard sordid rumors about its dispersal but would appreciate definitive word from a reliable source (i.e. yourself) to the extent you're able to discuss it. Thanks. Sellam On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 2:43 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:08:23 -0500 > > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk > > > I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed a BASIC, but didn't > > have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane > to > > MOS. > > MITS, not MOS. > > Messrs. Allen, Gates, and Davidoff wrote their BASIC for the Altair 8800 > using > a chip emulator created by Allen using the Unimplemented User Operation > (UUO) > facility of the PDP-10. He originally emulated the 8008, but updated it > when > the 8080 came out. > > He recreated the boot code for us to use on our restored 8800 at LCM+L, so > that > he could demonstrate the Altair BASIC for Leslie Stahl when she > interviewed him > for "60 Minutes" (when his memoir "Idea Man" was first published). He > spent > several weeks at the nascent museum debugging the BASIC interpreter prior > to > her visit--we did not have the final code he demo'd at MITS, but backups > of the > development sources, so he had to fix some known bugs. > > Rich >
[cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming
> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:08:23 -0500 > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk > I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed a BASIC, but didn't > have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane to > MOS. MITS, not MOS. Messrs. Allen, Gates, and Davidoff wrote their BASIC for the Altair 8800 using a chip emulator created by Allen using the Unimplemented User Operation (UUO) facility of the PDP-10. He originally emulated the 8008, but updated it when the 8080 came out. He recreated the boot code for us to use on our restored 8800 at LCM+L, so that he could demonstrate the Altair BASIC for Leslie Stahl when she interviewed him for "60 Minutes" (when his memoir "Idea Man" was first published). He spent several weeks at the nascent museum debugging the BASIC interpreter prior to her visit--we did not have the final code he demo'd at MITS, but backups of the development sources, so he had to fix some known bugs. Rich
[cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming
I have an entire box of Datapoint 2200 digital tapes, probably over 50 of them. I'm not sure what's on them, but I got them long ago from a former dealer/tech(?) for Datapoint outside Reno. I also scored a ton (probably literally) of hardware but that was all stolen in the Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012. As you can guess, the rollers in the tapes are probably deteriorated by now but someone with some patience and determination could probably extract the data. If anyone is interested, contact me privately. Sellam On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 9:08 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thanks. I was curious about if I found a Datapoint 2200 "in the wild" -- > what could be done with it, if no floppy nor any working tapes (then again, > such a system is well retired and really no need to power it on). "good > tapes" would probably be degraded by now (although the media has probably > been extracted and archives somewhere? so like with a TRS-80 today, can you > just use any tape deck or even a smartphone to just play back the tape? > not quite that simple, as the DP2200 digital data would have to converted > into appropriate audio tones -- unless they didn't actually use audio > tape?) > > Sounds like the "systems debugging" might allow injecting direct machine > code at addresses (the IBM 5100 has a DSP that allows this, to Alter > addresses to apply PALM instructions, then do a "BR" branch run at your > starting address to kick things off). I'm reading through the Lamont Wood > Datapoint book, maybe it will have more insight here. I was just curious > how the first tape (for the DP2200) was produced. > > I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed a BASIC, but didn't > have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane to > MOS. That's not quite the same - but I imagine a similar story with the > DP2200. An early incomplete DP2200 was built, someone coded some save/load > routines, tested, and once perfected maybe it was formalized into (a part > of) what became the bootrom? (if you have a correct "CTOS" tape, does the > DP2200 just load it or is an initial command needed?) Sorry, as > mentioned I'm reading the Datapoint book, and after that will explore the > manuals mentioned here that will probably explain it. (I see reference to > a DP2200 emulator made on the System/360 - but none ever made it to a > "modern" x86 PC?) > > > > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:11 AM jos via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 12.10.22 22:54, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > > Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint 2200 was > > programmed? > > > It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of > > > systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became > the > > > 8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the > > tapes > > > written?Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10? > > > Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor > and > > > tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system > > > (unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write > that > > > content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 > that > > > ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system? > > > > > > -Steve > > > > Look here to wat was available for this class of machines : > > > > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/software/6_Datapoint_Software_Catalog_Sep1982.pdf > > > > > > So, yes, Basic, RPG, Cobol ( for 5500 upwards), Databus, Datashare, > > Dataform were available. > > > > Programs development could be done standalone, even on a cassette-only > > system. > > > > Keep in mind that Diablo 14" diskdrives were available for these system, > > allowing for quite a comfortable environment. For early 70's standards of > > course... > > > > My DP2200 does have a bootrom, allowing for booting from floppy, or some > > simnple ad-hoc systems debugging. Look for the deocumented source code > for > > this bootrom on Bitsavers. > > > > > > Jos > > > > >
[cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming
On 17.10.22 06:08, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: Thanks. I was curious about if I found a Datapoint 2200 "in the wild" -- You'd be very lucky to find one. They are much rarer than the contemporary and similar ICL1501. And if you find one, watch out. The powersupply is seriously dangereous... into appropriate audio tones -- unless they didn't actually use audio tape?) They did not use audio tapes, but the digital variant. Sounds like the "systems debugging" might allow injecting direct machine code at addresses You can do just that on my system. If you have a true 2200 with the dual cassette system you do not have a bootrom : system hardware will just load the first block from tape and start from there. One of the tapes has a monitor similar to the one in my bootrom. My system is a DP1100/Floppy, has no tapes, but a PCB with the bootrom instead of the tape reader board. I intend to make a combined bootrom / tape reader board, as I would like to extend my DP1100 with casettes. Jos
[cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming
On 17.10.22 03:30, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Oct 12, 2022, 14:54 Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: Datapoint 2200 [...] iinstruction set was said to be similar what became the 8008. The instruction sets weren't similar, they was identical. Not quite, II believe, O handling is different between DP200 and i8008.
[cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming
Thanks. I was curious about if I found a Datapoint 2200 "in the wild" -- what could be done with it, if no floppy nor any working tapes (then again, such a system is well retired and really no need to power it on). "good tapes" would probably be degraded by now (although the media has probably been extracted and archives somewhere? so like with a TRS-80 today, can you just use any tape deck or even a smartphone to just play back the tape? not quite that simple, as the DP2200 digital data would have to converted into appropriate audio tones -- unless they didn't actually use audio tape?) Sounds like the "systems debugging" might allow injecting direct machine code at addresses (the IBM 5100 has a DSP that allows this, to Alter addresses to apply PALM instructions, then do a "BR" branch run at your starting address to kick things off). I'm reading through the Lamont Wood Datapoint book, maybe it will have more insight here. I was just curious how the first tape (for the DP2200) was produced. I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed a BASIC, but didn't have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane to MOS. That's not quite the same - but I imagine a similar story with the DP2200. An early incomplete DP2200 was built, someone coded some save/load routines, tested, and once perfected maybe it was formalized into (a part of) what became the bootrom? (if you have a correct "CTOS" tape, does the DP2200 just load it or is an initial command needed?) Sorry, as mentioned I'm reading the Datapoint book, and after that will explore the manuals mentioned here that will probably explain it. (I see reference to a DP2200 emulator made on the System/360 - but none ever made it to a "modern" x86 PC?) On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:11 AM jos via cctalk wrote: > On 12.10.22 22:54, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint 2200 was > programmed? > > It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of > > systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the > > 8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the > tapes > > written?Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10? > > Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and > > tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system > > (unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write that > > content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 that > > ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system? > > > > -Steve > > Look here to wat was available for this class of machines : > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/software/6_Datapoint_Software_Catalog_Sep1982.pdf > > > So, yes, Basic, RPG, Cobol ( for 5500 upwards), Databus, Datashare, > Dataform were available. > > Programs development could be done standalone, even on a cassette-only > system. > > Keep in mind that Diablo 14" diskdrives were available for these system, > allowing for quite a comfortable environment. For early 70's standards of > course... > > My DP2200 does have a bootrom, allowing for booting from floppy, or some > simnple ad-hoc systems debugging. Look for the deocumented source code for > this bootrom on Bitsavers. > > > Jos > >
[cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming
On Wed, Oct 12, 2022, 14:54 Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Datapoint 2200 [...] iinstruction set was said to be similar what became > the > 8008. > The instruction sets weren't similar, they was identical. The Intel 8008 (and TI TMX1795) were designed based on specifications from Computer Terminal Corporation, maker of the Datapoint brand. CTC chose not to use either chip in the Datapoint 2200 family, though. The 8008 instruction set is basically the 8080 instruction set with the best instructions removed and the opcodes reassigned.
[cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming
> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 15:54:33 -0500 > From: Steve Lewis > Subject: [cctalk] datapoint 2200 programming > > Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint 2200 was > programmed? > It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of > systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the > 8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the > tapes > written?Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10? >Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and > tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system > (unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write > that > content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 > that > ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system? > > -Steve While in college, 1973 to 77, I had a part-time job where one of the things we did was use a Datapoint 1100 dual cassette model to act as a data entry terminal for a database system running on a Cascade 80 minicomputer. I did the Datapoint programming, which was to query the db over an async line for a form template, allow the operator to fill in the form, then upon entry, send the data back. The db would provide the next form to display.A rudimentary state machine at several levels. The Datapoint came with a Cassette Tape operating system, called CTOS I believe. You booted it up, and the second drive was your working drive. The Programmer’s manual referenced shows you the commands. There was an simple tape file system, Editor, Assembler, Debugger, and a library of subroutines for common access to the system’s I/O. I remember very little about the details of working on it, but I had no problems getting the data entry system working. You just sat down and started programming it. The instruction set was the model for the 8008, but it preceded the popularity and availability of that chip. My boss did some real inspired work on the Cascade Data side. He managed to insert the database access code into high memory of the system, and hook into the native OS. So we could use the system normally, but the database serviced the terminal in the background. I did other Cascade programming in assembly, I wrote my own instruction card for the system. In my senior year, the facility switched over to using IBM System 3 equipment, and I got to work with RPG, 8-inch diskettes, and 96-column cards. Dave. Sent from Mail for Windows
[cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming
On 12.10.22 22:54, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint 2200 was programmed? It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the 8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the tapes written?Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10? Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system (unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write that content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 that ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system? -Steve Look here to wat was available for this class of machines : http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/software/6_Datapoint_Software_Catalog_Sep1982.pdf So, yes, Basic, RPG, Cobol ( for 5500 upwards), Databus, Datashare, Dataform were available. Programs development could be done standalone, even on a cassette-only system. Keep in mind that Diablo 14" diskdrives were available for these system, allowing for quite a comfortable environment. For early 70's standards of course... My DP2200 does have a bootrom, allowing for booting from floppy, or some simnple ad-hoc systems debugging. Look for the deocumented source code for this bootrom on Bitsavers. Jos
[cctalk] Re: datapoint 2200 programming
*From:* Steve Lewis via cctalk *Subject:* [cctalk] datapoint 2200 programming *Date:* Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 1:54 PM *To:* cctalk@classiccmp.org *Cc:* Steve Lewis Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint 2200 was programmed? It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the 8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the tapes written?Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10? Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system (unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write that content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 that ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system? -Steve I think you can find the answers here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/2200/ I only skimmed a couple of the manuals briefly, but it appears that it was programmed in assembler, and that the source code editing, assembly, and tape preparation were all done on the 2200. These manuals look like they are for the Version II machine that was introduced in 1972. The introduction to the Reference Manual states v.II was upward compatible from the v.I system, however, so the programming was probably similar. Once significant change was that v.II had RAM and that instructions ran between 4 and 80 times faster, which perhaps suggests that the v.I had a rotating memory or perhaps some sort of delay line memory. Paul
