RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Rich Alderson via cctalk]

From: Eric Smith
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2017 3:27 PM

> On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:02 PM, allison via cctech 
> wrote:

>> In the PDP-10 realm not less than a handful Tops10. ITC, more.

> TOPS-10 doesn't have any filesystems for floppy disks, though the KL10
> front-end PDP-11/40 running RSX-20F does, and there are utilities to access
> RSX and RT11 filesystems from TOPS-10.

Unsupported utilities.

Also, RSX-20F can only handle RX01 format.  An RX02 drive can be used, but
not an RX02 format diskette.

> AFAIK, the situation is the same for TOPS-20.  I don't have any idea
> whether ITS, WAITS, Tenex, or the Compuserve Monitor ever had any different
> floppy disk support.

TOPS-20 has no support for the front end RX01, nor does WAITS (which loads the
front end from DECtape, not floppy).  I doubt that TENEX does, since it runs on
KA-10 and KI-10 processors (front ends are loaded from the main processor, not
from their own peripherals).  ITS on the KL-10 is like WAITS, AFAIK:  DECtape,
not floppies.  I can't speak to the CI$ monitor or Tymcom-X.

Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputers.org

http://www.LivingComputers.org/

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Huw Davies via cctalk]

> On 7 May 2017, at 06:21, Jerry Weiss via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> I stand corrected.  It appears that the handwritten label has a ODS1 style 
> numerical UIC.
> 
> The printed directory may not actually be from the floppy media itself.  It is
> hierarchical.   So perhaps it is from some ODS2 media that is holding the 
> files 
> that are being transferred to/from the Floppy. 


That’s certainly the way I read it.

The SAVE command most probably is a locally written command or DCL procedure 
invoked by a symbol that does the magic of copying the files to the floppy.

The OpenVMS EXCHANGE command is the most likely tool used to transfer the data. 
As it’s name implies, it is designed to move data to and from foreign systems 
(where foreign in this context is most often a PDP-11 :-))

Huw Davies   | e-mail: huw.dav...@kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne| "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia| air, the sky would be painted green" 

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

I stand corrected.  It appears that the handwritten label has a ODS1 style 
numerical UIC.

The printed directory may not actually be from the floppy media itself.  It is
hierarchical.   So perhaps it is from some ODS2 media that is holding the files 
that are being transferred to/from the Floppy. 


Jerry 


> On May 5, 2017, at 6:16 PM, allison via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> After looking at all that...
> 
> The prompt is VMS the $.  The date makes it V3.6 to 4.2.
> I'd still bet that its Files-11 not ODS-II.
> 
> I'd have to check of the DCL prompt under RSX-11 is also $.
> 
> Either way the save command under VMS will have defaults for the device
> target
> and that a lookup on the Orange or Grey wall (manuals).
> 
> Allison
> 
> 
> On 05/05/2017 06:26 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
>>> On May 5, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk 
 > wrote:
 
> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
 Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
 owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
 disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
 certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
 inclined.
 
> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
 Here it is:
 
 http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg
  
 
 
 Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
 Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
 can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
 
 Terry (Tez)
>>> 
>>> Looks like ODS2.  The files appear to be RUNOFF.   Quick guess is that they
>>> are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
>>> 
>>> 
>> Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first). 
>> 
>> The .RNO files should contain human readable text.  It no-one has a VAX
>> with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
>> then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
 
 On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk >
 wrote:
 
> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
 Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>> 
>> 
> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
> 
> Allison
> 
>>> Jerry Weiss
>>> j...@ieee.org 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> Jerry Weiss
>> j...@ieee.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 5:16 PM, allison via cctalk
 wrote:
> After looking at all that...
>
> The prompt is VMS the $.  The date makes it V3.6 to 4.2.
> I'd still bet that its Files-11 not ODS-II.
>
> I'd have to check of the DCL prompt under RSX-11 is also $.

It is, though I don't know the version range. At least that's my
memory from 30 years ago when we once had to run RSX-11 for some
purpose that I've long forgotten...

Warner

> Either way the save command under VMS will have defaults for the device
> target
> and that a lookup on the Orange or Grey wall (manuals).
>
> Allison
>
>
> On 05/05/2017 06:26 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
>>> On May 5, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss  wrote:
>>>
>>>
 On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk 
 > wrote:

> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
 Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
 owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
 disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
 certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
 inclined.

> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
 Here it is:

 http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg
  
 

 Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
 Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
 can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...

 Terry (Tez)
>>>
>>> Looks like ODS2.  The files appear to be RUNOFF.   Quick guess is that they
>>> are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
>>>
>>>
>> Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first).
>>
>> The .RNO files should contain human readable text.  It no-one has a VAX
>> with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
>> then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.
>>
>>
>>
>>

 On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk >
 wrote:

> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
 Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>
>>
> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>
>>> Jerry Weiss
>>> j...@ieee.org 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Jerry Weiss
>> j...@ieee.org
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:02 PM, allison via cctech 
wrote:

> In the PDP-10 realm not less than a handful Tops10. ITC, more.
>

TOPS-10 doesn't have any filesystems for floppy disks, though the KL10
front-end PDP-11/40 running RSX-20F does, and there are utilities to access
RSX and RT11 filesystems from TOPS-10.

AFAIK, the situation is the same for TOPS-20.  I don't have any idea
whether ITS, WAITS, Tenex, or the Compuserve Monitor ever had any different
floppy disk support.

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[allison via cctalk]

After looking at all that...

The prompt is VMS the $.  The date makes it V3.6 to 4.2.
I'd still bet that its Files-11 not ODS-II.

I'd have to check of the DCL prompt under RSX-11 is also $.

Either way the save command under VMS will have defaults for the device
target
and that a lookup on the Orange or Grey wall (manuals).

Allison


On 05/05/2017 06:26 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
>> On May 5, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk >> > wrote:
>>>
 In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
>>> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
>>> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
>>> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
>>> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
>>> inclined.
>>>
 I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
 printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
>>> Here it is:
>>>
>>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg
>>>  
>>> 
>>>
>>> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
>>> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
>>> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
>>>
>>> Terry (Tez)
>>
>> Looks like ODS2.  The files appear to be RUNOFF.   Quick guess is that they
>> are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
>>
>>
> Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first). 
>
> The .RNO files should contain human readable text.  It no-one has a VAX
> with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
> then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.
>
>
>
>
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk >> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>
>
 Free beer?!?  No, no,no...

 Allison

>> Jerry Weiss
>> j...@ieee.org 
>>
>>
>>
> Jerry Weiss
> j...@ieee.org
>
>
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/05/2017 03:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote:
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
>> Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.
>
> That's right.
> Chuck's suggestion would require that somebody who has a
> flux-transition device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central Point Option
> board, etc.) would have to do the sector imaging.
>
> Well, or, . . .
> somebody who has an RX02 setup, such as you or Allison, could image
> the sectors, instead of copying the files,  which might be appropriate
> if it turns out that the OS that these were created with is
> unavailable.   How many operating systems use RX02?
>
>
In the PDP-8 realm not less than two maybe others.
In the PDP-10 realm not less than a handful Tops10. ITC, more.
In the PDP-11 realm not less than four, RT11, RSTS, RSX11, TSX-11,
unix(several) and XXDP come to mind.
In the VAX realm not less than 3 come to mind, VMS, VAX-RT, Ultrix,
Unix, Others?

Different version may have also added variations.

Allison

> -- 
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

As far as RX02 formatted 8-inch floppies go, I have some original DEC
RT-11 V05.01 RX02 format distribution floppies which I managed to dump
to disk images a few years ago. I forget exactly how I did it now.

It was either with a real DEC RX02 drive and an M8029 RXV21 controller
in a Q-Bus PDP-11 system, or with an Scientific Micro Systems SMS1000
which has an RX02 compatible disk controller on its main "foundation
module" for a standard TM848-2E floppy drive.

Then I booted 2.11BSD on one of the two PDP-11 systems and simply used
"dd" to dump all of the floppy sectors to image files, then used ftp
to get the image files out to a modern system. Fortunately I didn't
have to deal with any bad sectors. Not sure how that would have
complicated things if I did.

Next to use those floppy image files with SIMH I had to reshuffle the
sector order into new image files copies. The RX02 driver in software
does a 2:1 sector interleave, a 6 sector per track skew, and starts at
track 1 and wraps around to track 0, which had to be undone.

(See the "raxfactr" routine in the 2.11BSC source file src/sys/pdpuba/rx.c)

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sat, 6 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

?Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single Density.

It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It can't see

any data.

Could be an RX02 disk as people say


Oh, and sector size is 128 bytes.


Well, yes and no.

the RX02 can do a 128 byte per sector format in FM (single density)

BUT, then it can [OPTIONALLY] replace the content 128 byte FM sectors with 
256 byte MFM ("double" density) content, while leaving the FM sector 
headers in place.
Resulting in FM headers (that presumably SAY "128 bytes"), with 256 
bytes of MFM content.


In addition to the index address mark and related inter sector gaps, 
(check out P7 of: 
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/SA8xx/50664-0_SA800_801_Theory_of_Operations_Apr76.pdf
each header would have an ID Address Mark, the cylinder number, the head 
number, the sector number, and the sector size (0 for 128, 1 for 256, 2 for 512, 3 for 1024, 
but in THIS case, it seems to refer to the space provided rather than the 
actual content?), and a 2 byte CRC.  After a suitable gap for write 
splice, the content has a Data Address Mark, the content, and a 2 byte 
CRC.  Then another gap before the next sector.
(In THAT exaample, being single sided with 128 byte sectors, both the head 
number and sector size are listed as zeroes)



Bill deserves a beer just for his offer to help.

Allison's expertise is worth more than we could afford to pay for.

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

> On May 5, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Jerry Weiss  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk > > wrote:
>> 
>>> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
>> 
>> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
>> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
>> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
>> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
>> inclined.
>> 
>>> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>>> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
>> 
>> Here it is:
>> 
>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
>> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
>> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
>> 
>> Terry (Tez)
> 
> 
> Looks like ODS2.  The files appear to be RUNOFF.   Quick guess is that they
> are the appendices to some document or manuscript.
> 
> 

Mr Obvious here (missed the handwritten text in the label at first). 

The .RNO files should contain human readable text.  It no-one has a VAX
with an RX02, it should be possible to image the disk from a PDP11 and
then mount the image in elsewhere to recover the data.




> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk > >
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
 
 On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
 
 I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
 
 
>>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>>> 
>>> Allison
>>> 
> 
> Jerry Weiss
> j...@ieee.org 
> 
> 
> 

Jerry Weiss
j...@ieee.org

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

> On May 5, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
> 
> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
> inclined.
> 
>> I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>> printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg
> 
> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
> 
> Terry (Tez)


Looks like ODS2.  The files appear to be RUNOFF.   Quick guess is that they
are the appendices to some document or manuscript.


Jerry


> 
> 
> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk 
> wrote:
> 
>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
 I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>>> 
>>> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>>> 
>>> 
>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>> 
>> Allison
>> 

Jerry Weiss
j...@ieee.org

RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Definitely VMS.  And looks like RX02 (DEVICE Type DY).
I probably couldn't read it on a PDP-11, but I guess it depends on what
the default file structure on a VMS RX02 is.  Of course a PDP-11 could
probably read the raw disk into an image and then you could  setup
a VAX with VMS in SIMH and get at them.  Oh, and it's not as much
work as it may sound like.  Looks like they are Runoff files.


bill


From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Terry Stewart via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 5:58 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

>In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this

Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.

>I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing

Here it is:

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg

Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...

Terry (Tez)


On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
> >
> > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> >> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
> >
> > I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
> >
> >
> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

?Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single Density.
> It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It can't see
any data.
>Could be an RX02 disk as people say

Oh, and sector size is 128 bytes.


On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Terry Stewart 
wrote:

> >In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
>
> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
> inclined.
>
> >I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
> >printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
>
> Here it is:
>
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-
> vax-disk-cover.jpg
>
> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
>
> Terry (Tez)
>
>
> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> >> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>> >
>> > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> >> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>> >
>> > I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>> >
>> >
>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>>
>> Allison
>>
>
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this

Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.

>I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing

Here it is:

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg

Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...

Terry (Tez)


On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
> >
> > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> >> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
> >
> > I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
> >
> >
> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>
> I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>
>
Free beer?!?  No, no,no...

Allison

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/04/2017 07:01 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
> From: Terry Stewart
> Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 2:41 PM
>
>> Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
>> thread I said...
>>> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
>>> floppy disks.  They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them.
>>> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
>>> was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other format
>>> entirely.
>> It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
>> scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
> Stop there.
>
> 8" floppies on a VAX are more likely to be an RT-11 file system for the front
> end PDP-11/03 than anything else you can think of.
>
> The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.
Not absolutely true!   THe boot system is a PDP-11, however the VAX can
have a Unibus or QBUS (depending on flavor) where a RX02 controller can
plug in.

The likely file system is FILES-11.  But can be "othter", especially if
its a unix machine.

Allison
> Rich
>
>
> Rich Alderson
> Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
> Living Computers: Museum + Labs
> 2245 1st Avenue S
> Seattle, WA 98134
>
> mailto:ri...@livingcomputers.org
>
> http://www.LivingComputers.org/

Re: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/04/2017 09:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> Thank you!
>
> Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check
> them out for Terry.
>
I could...  If I had the time and no other competing projects.

I'm far from the only one around with a PDP-11 with RX02 or a
microVAX-II with a
RXV21/RX02 spare to swap in.

The process would be reading the media and transfering to a PC via
serial line at
maybe 19.2K.

If the media is good its not so bad at 500k max.  If the media is past
its "use by"
date it will gum the heads and require pulling out the drives to clean
the heads.
Thats time consuming.  If the format is not as expected then it s a read
and
capture sectors project, more time. 

The key is are you sure the media is formatted as ODS-II?   I'd consider
that very
unlikely as the overhead is high.  Even VAXen could save to small media
with
multiple formats not the same as whats on the big RDxx, RLxx, RAxxx or
RZxx media.
Typical it is likely files-11.

Suggesting to Terry, learn DEC systems.

One or two for giggles maybe, a significant volume of them comes with
cash as
its a time consuming commercial effort.


Allison

>
> Experience always beats speculation:
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote:
>> First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
>> aka RX02.
>>
>> RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track  PC can read them.
>>
>> RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
>> totally
>> unreadable with any LSI controller.  It uses FM headers to confuse
>> the act.
>> To read that you need:
>> - RX02 and a compatible system.
>> -  one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
>> family chips)  in a DEC box (and cpu).
>> -Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.
>>
>> Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
>> SSSD).  It can also read and write
>> RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01.   RX02
>> format was unique to DEC
>> and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
>> compatible controllers.
>>
>> First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the
>> second.
>>
>> Then the possible 8" ODS formats are
>>
>> DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
>> formatting).
>>
>> The  PDP-11 group  RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common.  Note PDT150
>> is also PDP-11 RX01.
>> This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.
>> The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
>> 3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
>> time.
>>
>> VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode.  It is PDP11 and
>> RX01 media.
>> Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
>> format compatible with
>> the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target.
>>
>> I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
>> the VAX78x family
>> as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive.   To do that it had to
>> have a unibus  RX controller
>> and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
>> utilities for most all the
>> PDP11 formats.
>>
>> Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.
>> Microvax and later machine
>> did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
>> sequence.   In those
>> cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
>> (not a supported config)
>> assembled as a hack.  Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
>> RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
>> as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
>> firmware supported 5.25" Teac
>> and 3.5" Sony drives as well.  RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50  and 3.5" Sony
>> drives.  Because of this
>> and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used.  The RQDX
>> controllers could do the stated
>> floppies even is MFM  disks were not connected.
>>
>> Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.
>>
>> in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough.  IF RX02
>> a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
>> equivalent) makes it easy.To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
>> reader, 765 and later clones cannot.
>>
>> How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
>> uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
>> I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
>> and a CP/M utility that
>> knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
>> RX01 media using FIT or other
>> tools.
>>
>>
>> Allison

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 05/05/2017 01:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Although, when I have an "unknown" disk, before I launch a sector 
> editor, I type "DIR", just in case it ISN'T anything challenging.  I 
> didn't try flux-transition until I failed with my sector editor.

The hardest that I've run into so far is verifying that a floppy has
*nothing* on it.  Flux transition sampling showed zero correlation of
timings (i.e. SD almost 0.0).   You could use magnetic developer and see
the tracks, but a photomicrograph showed no distinct reversal
boundaries.  Probably DC-erased was my best guess.

--Chuck

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

I didn't mean what I think you thought I meant.

correct
I apologize


The immediate problem
is getting data--any data at all.   If you can retrieve every sector on
the disk, then it's just a matter of software to unravel the filesystem.
DEC filesystems in general are pretty well documented, even if you have
to wade through the strangeness of things such as RAD50 file names.


Yep
Sometimes easy, sometimes not


Yes, flux-transition (e.g. catweasel) tools do exist for RX02
double-density reading and writing.  I've used them in the past. At
least one runs under Linux and allows one to copy dd-style sector by sector.


good to know!
I don't anticipate doing any, but I'm glad to see that somebody has put 
such together.



But first you need the bits.  Without those, the filesystem is just a
useless abstraction.


Quite true.
But, it turns out that there are multiple people handy who happen to have 
the machine.  And they could TRIVIALLY accomplish what we would have to 
put a little bit of work into.  If there weren't, then the next step 
would, indeed be to look at raw images of tracks.



Data first--interpretation later.


Although, when I have an "unknown" disk, before I launch a sector editor, 
I type "DIR", just in case it ISN'T anything challenging.  I didn't try 
flux-transition until I failed with my sector editor.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

And, sometimes we just have fun.

bill



From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:55 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On Fri, 5 May 2017, js--- via cctalk wrote:
> In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this.
> It is not necessary to become challenged by and read every mystery disk in
> the entire world.  Things that are forgotten, probably don't deserve all this
> attention.

We do put far more effort into such projects than they are "worth".
What does doing a crossword or Sudoku accomplish?

Sometimes we learn valuable information that can be applied to future
tasks.   Sometimes not.

RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Well, the probably do when your doing it for fun.

bill


From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of js--- via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:51 PM
To: gene...@ezwind.net; Discussion@
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 5/5/2017 2:33 PM, Fred Cisin via
cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon
> via cctalk wrote:
>> But I thought the problem was that
>> most disk controllers can't do RX02.
>> Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or
>> Cryoflux.
>
> That's right.
> Chuck's suggestion would require that
> somebody who has a flux-transition
> device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central
> Point Option board, etc.) would have
> to do the sector imaging.
>
> Well, or, . . .
> somebody who has an RX02 setup, such
> as you or Allison, could image the
> sectors, instead of copying the
> files,  which might be appropriate if
> it turns out that the OS that these
> were created with is unavailable.
> How many operating systems use RX02?

In case not everyone noticed, but
Terry's already given up on this.

It is not necessary to become challenged
by and read every mystery disk in the
entire world.  Things that are
forgotten, probably don't deserve all
this attention.

- J.

RE: RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

All the PDP-11 ones.  The directory listing would give a pretty good idea
which one it was.  I am prety sure VMS actually could, too.  And then
you have BSD and Ultrix on the VAX as well.  Lots of choices.  

Believe it or not, I am pretty sure I can make a disk image from the floppies
using VTServer that would then work on something like SIMH.

Like I said, lots of choices.  And it could all be done for the cost of postage
I would imagine.  I'm retired, and bored, always looking for things to keep
me busy.  Doesn't look like its going to warm up enough this year to do
any work outside.  Snow showers predicted for this weekend.  :-(

bill


From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:33 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
> Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.

That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that somebody who has a
flux-transition device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central Point Option board,
etc.) would have to do the sector imaging.

Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such as you or Allison, could image the
sectors, instead of copying the files,  which might be appropriate if it
turns out that the OS that these were created with is unavailable.   How
many operating systems use RX02?


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 5 May 2017, js--- via cctalk wrote:

In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this.
It is not necessary to become challenged by and read every mystery disk in 
the entire world.  Things that are forgotten, probably don't deserve all this 
attention.


We do put far more effort into such projects than they are "worth".
What does doing a crossword or Sudoku accomplish?

Sometimes we learn valuable information that can be applied to future 
tasks.   Sometimes not.

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[js--- via cctalk]

On 5/5/2017 2:33 PM, Fred Cisin via 
cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon 
via cctalk wrote:
But I thought the problem was that 
most disk controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or 
Cryoflux.


That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that 
somebody who has a flux-transition 
device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central 
Point Option board, etc.) would have 
to do the sector imaging.


Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such 
as you or Allison, could image the 
sectors, instead of copying the 
files,  which might be appropriate if 
it turns out that the OS that these 
were created with is unavailable.   
How many operating systems use RX02?


In case not everyone noticed, but 
Terry's already given up on this.


It is not necessary to become challenged 
by and read every mystery disk in the 
entire world.  Things that are 
forgotten, probably don't deserve all 
this attention.


- J.

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 05/05/2017 12:20 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> This is a rare occasion that I will disagree with Chuck.

I'm fine with that.  Let a thousand flowers bloom...

> Yes, there are situations, where the file system is unknown or not
> understood, where the best approach is to copy all of the sectors and
> then let the client determine the rearrangement of those into the files
> that they want.   I've done that - both with having my junior staff wade
> through them looking for probable sequences, and even handing the client
> a giant stack of printouts and letting them decide (and then I
> concatenated the goups of sectors that they wanted)

I didn't mean what I think you thought I meant.  The immediate problem
is getting data--any data at all.   If you can retrieve every sector on
the disk, then it's just a matter of software to unravel the filesystem.
 DEC filesystems in general are pretty well documented, even if you have
to wade through the strangeness of things such as RAD50 file names.

Yes, flux-transition (e.g. catweasel) tools do exist for RX02
double-density reading and writing.  I've used them in the past. At
least one runs under Linux and allows one to copy dd-style sector by sector.

But first you need the bits.  Without those, the filesystem is just a
useless abstraction.

When I retrieve specialized formats (e.g. 8" closed-caption (WGBH)
disks), I acknowledge that there's a lot of guess-and-by-gosh to
unraveling them as no documentation seems to be extant. I'll always
include a "raw" sector-by-sector image as well as my
interpretation/translation. Similarly, for things like Brother 120K and
240K floppies, I keep the flux-transition recording around for future
reference until the customer signals his satisfaction.

Sometimes the filesystem organization is well documented, but the disk
has been corrupted (you see this with Apple HFS floppies and hard disks
more than you'd think) and you have to extract data without the benefit
of the filesystem structural information, piece by piece.  It's a manual
process and fraught with error.  So you keep the "raw" image around in
case the inevitable happens.

Data first--interpretation later.

--Chuck

Re: RE: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

> Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.


On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.


I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!

Re: RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.


That's right.
Chuck's suggestion would require that somebody who has a 
flux-transition device (Catweasel, Kryoflux, Central Point Option board, 
etc.) would have to do the sector imaging.


Well, or, . . .
somebody who has an RX02 setup, such as you or Allison, could image the 
sectors, instead of copying the files,  which might be appropriate if it 
turns out that the OS that these were created with is unavailable.   How 
many operating systems use RX02?



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

RE: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.

bill


From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 3:20 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

>> Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
>> are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
>> (myself being one of them!)

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
> The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
> immediate task at hand.

This is a rare occasion that I will disagree with Chuck.

Yes, there are situations, where the file system is unknown or not
understood, where the best approach is to copy all of the sectors and then
let the client determine the rearrangement of those into the files that
they want.   I've done that - both with having my junior staff wade
through them looking for probable sequences, and even handing the client a
giant stack of printouts and letting them decide (and then I concatenated
the goups of sectors that they wanted)

But HERE, one option consists of doing that using flux-transition
systems, and probably a significant amount of manual labor.  Does software
currently exist yet for any of the flux-transition systems to easily
handle sector reads from this format?
OR
the only hardware (other than "flux-transition") that can read such disks
also probably runs the operating sytstem(s) that understand that file system!

If suitable compensation could be negotiated and arranged, Allison or Bill
Gunshannon, for example, could put the disk(s) into machines that have not
only the hardware capabilities, but are running the exact software that is
called for for getting at the files, and copy the files.  That certainly
seems more practical than manual regeneration.


However, since the situation is one of "we don't know what is on these,
and are just CURIOUS", it is likely that there may not be a desire to
provide sufficient compensation to whoever might undertake the task.
This one is definitely substantially more WORK than "copy the files from
this Compupro disk".   Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the
others to.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

But I thought the problem was that most disk controllers can't do RX02.
Everybody doesn't have a Catweasel or Cryoflux.

bill


From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 2:47 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 05/05/2017 11:19 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
> are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
> (myself being one of them!)

Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
immediate task at hand.

--Chuck

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 05/05/2017 11:19 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
> Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they
> are RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them
> (myself being one of them!)

Just image them sector-by-sector and let folks fool with the images.
The filesystem details can come later--and are largely irrelevant to the
immediate task at hand.

--Chuck

RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Not really, in the event they would like them read and we know they are
RX02 there are a number of people here who likely could read them (myself
being one of them!)

I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing.  Better still, if it was
computer generated scan it and post the whole thng because printout
headers may assist in determing what the disks actually came from.

bill

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 1:49 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 05/05/2017 10:24 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

> If you can read the first block on track zero, it will probably make
> it clear what the file system is.

I apologize for being dense in this discussion, but it's pretty clear
that the disks are RX02 "double density" (I hesitate to call them MFM),
as that might confuse them with the System/3 MFM that's pretty much a
standard) and not readable by any hardware that the OP has.  As far as I
can tell, the donors no longer own a VAX equipped to read them.

The file system used is therefore of only peripheral importance, is it not?

--Chuck

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 05/05/2017 10:24 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

> If you can read the first block on track zero, it will probably make
> it clear what the file system is.

I apologize for being dense in this discussion, but it's pretty clear
that the disks are RX02 "double density" (I hesitate to call them MFM),
as that might confuse them with the System/3 MFM that's pretty much a
standard) and not readable by any hardware that the OP has.  As far as I
can tell, the donors no longer own a VAX equipped to read them.

The file system used is therefore of only peripheral importance, is it not?

--Chuck

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 05/04/2017 06:01 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:

From: Terry Stewart
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 2:41 PM


Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
thread I said...

Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
floppy disks.  They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them.
They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other format
entirely.

It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them.

Stop there.

8" floppies on a VAX are more likely to be an RT-11 file system for the front
end PDP-11/03 than anything else you can think of.


You definitely can built an RMS ODS-2 file system on the Vax 
780 floppy drive.  I don't recall doing this very much, but 
one time when I had to write a program that fixed a damaged 
master file header, i tested it on a floppy file system 
first.  Usually, VAXes had some much better removable media 
devices.


If you can read the first block on track zero, it will 
probably make it clear what the file system is.


Jon

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Huw Davies via cctalk]

> On 5 May 2017, at 07:41, Terry Stewart via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in some weird proprietary
> format OTHER than VMS?

It has been a very long time since I had a VAX-11/780 to play with but as other 
people have mentioned the format is much more likely to be RT-11 than ODS-2.

You mentioned that you had a directory listing of one or more of the floppies.

Can you scan one (or type it up)? The layout of the directory listing should 
give a clue to the on-disk format.

Huw Davies   | e-mail: huw.dav...@kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne| "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia| air, the sky would be painted green" 

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/04/2017 07:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctech wrote:
>> And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't believe
> you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely with a VAX.
>
> Interestingly PUTR, does seem to accommodate this, and the kind of system I
> have set up (i.e. 1.2 MB 5.25 inch in CMOS even though it's an 8 inch
> drive).  From the readme file...
>
> "SET x: type
>
>
> Sets the drive type for one of the four possible PC floppy
> drives A:-D: (note that actual PCs rarely have more than one or
> two floppy drives).  The type must be RX01, RX02, RX03, RX50,
> RX33, RX24, RX23, or RX26.  The default value for each drive is
> whatever was stored in CMOS memory by the ROM BIOS setup
> utility.
Yes but RX02 uses FM headers and FM2 sectors.  NO FDC CHIP CAN READ THAT.
None of the 765 family or WDC 179x and cousins can.

It was unique to DEC though Intel did similar but not the same on the
MDS800 dual density drives their difference was the whole media
was one recording format either single or double density.

You need a PDP11 with RX02 (or DSD880) or a catsweasel.

I know this as I have the former. 

Allison

> This command may be useful when the drive types stored in CMOS
> RAM are incorrect for some reason.  It's also helpful when an 8"
> drive, or a real DEC RX50 drive, has been attached to the PC
> using a D Bit "FDADAP" adapter, or something equivalent.  There
> is no standard for representing these drive types in CMOS RAM.
> Using real RX50 drives (or other 300 RPM quad-density drives
> such as the Tandon TM100-3 and TM100-4) is different from RX33s
> (which is what PUTR calls regular PC 1.2 MB drives) because the
> motor speed is slower, so the FDC chip must be programmed for a
> lower data rate to match."
>
>  I didn't spend too much time on PUTR as it seemed to be more for the older
> DEC OSs rather than Vax VMS.  VMS wasn't mentioned as an option in PUTR
> which is why I spent more time experimenting with ODS2, which was VAX
> specific.  And...as I said, PUTR tries to figure out what DEC OS (if any)
> is on the disk and failed to find one.
>
> Maybe I should play around with the switches in PUTR more before I give up
> though
>
> Terry

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/04/2017 06:35 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>> Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried. 
>> Couldn't
>> do it at all.  Tons of errors, no tracks could be read.  IMD didn't
>> recognise the layout at all.
>> All the disks I tried were like this.
>
> Then, either it is impossible to read with the PC FDC, or we missed
> something.
>
> Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density?
> I think that Dave has a utility to test that.
>
>
> Do you have access to any sort of "flux-transition" device (Central
> point option board, cat-weasel, kryoflux, etc.)?


First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
aka RX02.

RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track  PC can read them.

RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
totally
unreadable with any LSI controller.  It uses FM headers to confuse the act.
To read that you need:
- RX02 and a compatible system.
-  one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
family chips)  in a DEC box (and cpu).
-Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.

Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
SSSD).  It can also read and write
RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01.   RX02
format was unique to DEC
and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
compatible controllers.

First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the second.

Then the possible 8" ODS formats are

DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
formatting).

The  PDP-11 group  RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common.  Note PDT150
is also PDP-11 RX01.
This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.   
The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
time.

VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode.  It is PDP11 and
RX01 media.
Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
format compatible with
the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target. 

I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
the VAX78x family
as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive.   To do that it had to
have a unibus  RX controller
and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
utilities for most all the
PDP11 formats.

Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.  
Microvax and later machine
did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
sequence.   In those
cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
(not a supported config)
assembled as a hack.  Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
firmware supported 5.25" Teac 
and 3.5" Sony drives as well.  RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50  and 3.5" Sony
drives.  Because of this
and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used.  The RQDX
controllers could do the stated
floppies even is MFM  disks were not connected. 

Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.

in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough.  IF RX02
a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
equivalent) makes it easy.To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
reader, 765 and later clones cannot.

How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
and a CP/M utility that
knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
RX01 media using FIT or other
tools.


Allison

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/04/2017 09:05 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>> The 'RX02' format used by PUTR is actually IBM System 34 format,
>> since DEC's 8" DD disks use a strange combination of SD headers
>> with non-standard ID marks, and DD data fields, that can't be
>> accessed with a standard PC FDC regardless of the software used."
> Right.  It's definitely a possibility then.
PUTR can do RX01 media formats.  Since the PC cannot do the unique mixed
density format
saying RX02 is potentially inaccurate.

Reason is that RX02 is a dual density drive system .  Its also a RX02
512Kb media *or* RX01  256kb.
That meas RX02 drive can read and write RX01 media in RX01 mode and
hence system 34
compatible media.  The  RX02 had three interfaces, omnibus, qbus, unibus.

RX01 is a drive system that is older and only does the 256K system 34
aka SSSD 8".  The media
is called RX01 as well.  PCs can do this.  Neither can read RX02 media
unless reformated
to RX01 (if full, you need two to hold the data due to storage capacity
difference ) or
using Catsweasel or similar.   This subsystem had three different bus
level interfaces
Omnibus, Qbus, Unibus.

The difference between the two is the bus controller and the logic in
the drive subsystem.
Both use the same physical disk drive and on first glance look the same.


Allison

RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Rich Alderson via cctalk]

From: Terry Stewart
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 2:41 PM

> Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
> thread I said...

>> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
>> floppy disks.  They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them.
>> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
>> was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other format
>> entirely.

> It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
> scoured the Internet for something that might read them.

Stop there.

8" floppies on a VAX are more likely to be an RT-11 file system for the front
end PDP-11/03 than anything else you can think of.

The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.

Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputers.org

http://www.LivingComputers.org/

Re: Re: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
>aka RX02.
>(..an in-depth explanation)
>How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
>uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
>I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
>and a CP/M utility that
>knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
>RX01 media using FIT or other
>tools.

Thanks for that explanation Allison.  I see there are all sorts of complex
systems and formats.

Based on what I've read, I'll call it quits with this project.  The guys in
the lab in the next building can take it further if they want to.  They
didn't want anything specific off the floppies.  It was a case of "we want
to toss these disks.  but perhaps we should copy the stuff off these
disks...just in case".

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  It's been an interesting learning
exercise.

Terry



On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:

> Thank you!
>
> Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check them
> out for Terry.
>
>
> Experience always beats speculation:
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote:
>
>> First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
>> aka RX02.
>>
>> RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track  PC can read them.
>>
>> RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
>> totally
>> unreadable with any LSI controller.  It uses FM headers to confuse the
>> act.
>> To read that you need:
>> - RX02 and a compatible system.
>> -  one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
>> family chips)  in a DEC box (and cpu).
>> -Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.
>>
>> Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
>> SSSD).  It can also read and write
>> RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01.   RX02
>> format was unique to DEC
>> and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
>> compatible controllers.
>>
>> First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the
>> second.
>>
>> Then the possible 8" ODS formats are
>>
>> DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
>> formatting).
>>
>> The  PDP-11 group  RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common.  Note PDT150
>> is also PDP-11 RX01.
>> This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.
>> The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
>> 3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
>> time.
>>
>> VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode.  It is PDP11 and
>> RX01 media.
>> Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
>> format compatible with
>> the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target.
>>
>> I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
>> the VAX78x family
>> as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive.   To do that it had to
>> have a unibus  RX controller
>> and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
>> utilities for most all the
>> PDP11 formats.
>>
>> Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.
>> Microvax and later machine
>> did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
>> sequence.   In those
>> cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
>> (not a supported config)
>> assembled as a hack.  Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
>> RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
>> as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
>> firmware supported 5.25" Teac
>> and 3.5" Sony drives as well.  RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50  and 3.5" Sony
>> drives.  Because of this
>> and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used.  The RQDX
>> controllers could do the stated
>> floppies even is MFM  disks were not connected.
>>
>> Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.
>>
>> in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough.  IF RX02
>> a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
>> equivalent) makes it easy.To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
>> reader, 765 and later clones cannot.
>>
>> How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
>> uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
>> I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
>> and a CP/M utility that
>> knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
>> RX01 media using FIT or other
>> tools.
>>
>>
>> Allison
>>
>

Re: Re: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Thank you!

Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check them 
out for Terry.



Experience always beats speculation:

On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote:

First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
aka RX02.

RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track  PC can read them.

RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
totally
unreadable with any LSI controller.  It uses FM headers to confuse the act.
To read that you need:
- RX02 and a compatible system.
-  one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
family chips)  in a DEC box (and cpu).
-Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.

Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
SSSD).  It can also read and write
RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01.   RX02
format was unique to DEC
and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
compatible controllers.

First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the second.

Then the possible 8" ODS formats are

DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
formatting).

The  PDP-11 group  RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common.  Note PDT150
is also PDP-11 RX01.
This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.
The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
time.

VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode.  It is PDP11 and
RX01 media.
Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
format compatible with
the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target.

I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
the VAX78x family
as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive.   To do that it had to
have a unibus  RX controller
and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
utilities for most all the
PDP11 formats.

Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.
Microvax and later machine
did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
sequence.   In those
cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
(not a supported config)
assembled as a hack.  Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
firmware supported 5.25" Teac
and 3.5" Sony drives as well.  RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50  and 3.5" Sony
drives.  Because of this
and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used.  The RQDX
controllers could do the stated
floppies even is MFM  disks were not connected.

Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.

in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough.  IF RX02
a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
equivalent) makes it easy.To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
reader, 765 and later clones cannot.

How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
and a CP/M utility that
knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
RX01 media using FIT or other
tools.


Allison

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>The 'RX02' format used by PUTR is actually IBM System 34 format,
>since DEC's 8" DD disks use a strange combination of SD headers
>with non-standard ID marks, and DD data fields, that can't be
>accessed with a standard PC FDC regardless of the software used."

Right.  It's definitely a possibility then.

Thanks

Terry

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[js--- via cctalk]

On 5/4/2017 6:39 PM, Terry Stewart via 
cctalk wrote:

And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't believe

you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely with a VAX.

Interestingly PUTR, does seem to accommodate this, and the kind of system I
have set up (i.e. 1.2 MB 5.25 inch in CMOS even though it's an 8 inch
drive).



If you'll have a look at the PUTR 
manual, it says on page 1,


"The 'RX02' format used by PUTR is 
actually IBM System 34 format,
since DEC's 8" DD disks use a 
strange combination of SD headers
with non-standard ID marks, and 
DD data fields, that can't be
accessed with a standard PC FDC 
regardless of the software used."


- J.

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to
>read the disks with any commodity floppy controller.  You will, however,
>get the sector ID headers.

>DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in
>single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded
>in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid
>conflict with similar patterns in the headers.

Thanks Chuck

Hmm...I'll do some more checking with IMD and Anadisk tonight.  I haven't
looked at this disks in Anadisk yet.  IMD did recognise some things...maybe
it was the Sector ID headers.

Even if I can't get anything off, I'm now very curious as to exactly what
I'm dealing with.

Terry



On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 05/04/2017 04:30 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote:
>
> > On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
> >>> If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a
> >>> 11/780?
> >> There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
> >
> > And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't
> > believe you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely
> > with a VAX.
>
> If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to
> read the disks with any commodity floppy controller.  You will, however,
> get the sector ID headers.
>
> DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in
> single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded
> in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid
> conflict with similar patterns in the headers.
>
> A catweasel will work just fine--and there's code out there to handle it.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 05/04/2017 04:30 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote:

> On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>>> If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a
>>> 11/780?
>> There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
> 
> And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't
> believe you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely
> with a VAX.

If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to
read the disks with any commodity floppy controller.  You will, however,
get the sector ID headers.

DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in
single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded
in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid
conflict with similar patterns in the headers.

A catweasel will work just fine--and there's code out there to handle it.

--Chuck

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On May 4, 2017 3:30 PM, "Terry Stewart via cctalk" 
wrote:

>Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the density, bytes per
sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2)
>Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides?

>If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading through content
within sectors to get more clues about what's there.

Thanks Fred,

Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried.  Couldn't
do it at all.  Tons of errors, no tracks could be read.  IMD didn't
recognise the layout at all.

All the disks I tried were like this.

Terry


If they are DEC RX02 format you won't be able to read them on any standard
PC hardware.

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't believe
you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely with a VAX.

Interestingly PUTR, does seem to accommodate this, and the kind of system I
have set up (i.e. 1.2 MB 5.25 inch in CMOS even though it's an 8 inch
drive).  From the readme file...

"SET x: type


Sets the drive type for one of the four possible PC floppy
drives A:-D: (note that actual PCs rarely have more than one or
two floppy drives).  The type must be RX01, RX02, RX03, RX50,
RX33, RX24, RX23, or RX26.  The default value for each drive is
whatever was stored in CMOS memory by the ROM BIOS setup
utility.

This command may be useful when the drive types stored in CMOS
RAM are incorrect for some reason.  It's also helpful when an 8"
drive, or a real DEC RX50 drive, has been attached to the PC
using a D Bit "FDADAP" adapter, or something equivalent.  There
is no standard for representing these drive types in CMOS RAM.
Using real RX50 drives (or other 300 RPM quad-density drives
such as the Tandon TM100-3 and TM100-4) is different from RX33s
(which is what PUTR calls regular PC 1.2 MB drives) because the
motor speed is slower, so the FDC chip must be programmed for a
lower data rate to match."

 I didn't spend too much time on PUTR as it seemed to be more for the older
DEC OSs rather than Vax VMS.  VMS wasn't mentioned as an option in PUTR
which is why I spent more time experimenting with ODS2, which was VAX
specific.  And...as I said, PUTR tries to figure out what DEC OS (if any)
is on the disk and failed to find one.

Maybe I should play around with the switches in PUTR more before I give up
though

Terry

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[js--- via cctalk]

On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via 
cctalk wrote:

If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780?

There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.


And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere 
on this VAX, I don't believe you'd be 
able to read them at all... RX02 seeming 
more likely with a VAX.


- J.

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780?
There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
>Or they could just be disks used for data exchange.  They would be in
another DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2.

Thanks Jerry,

No one actually knows.  Attached to the front of the disks cover (on
printout paper) is a listing of the directory showing files. Some commands
to get that directory are also shown.

I also tried to examine this disks in pure MSDOS using PUTR V2.01, a DEC
File Transfer Program by John Wilson.  It interrogated the drive for a
recognisable DEC OS, but couldn't find one.

Interestingly, I was able to format/initialise a blank 8 inch disk in the
DEC format I tried (I think it was OS/8) using this program, then mount it
successfully.  This is why I think at least the hardware is working ok.

Cheers

Terry


On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Jerry Weiss  wrote:

> If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780?
> There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
>
> Or they could just be disks used for data exchange.  They would be in
> another DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2.
>
> Jerry Weiss
> j...@ieee.org
>
>
> > On May 4, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
> > thread I said...
> >
> >> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8
> > inch floppy disks.
> >> They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them.
> >> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the
> software
> > was used to write the files.
> >> They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.
> >
> > Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some
> > experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go.
> >
> > It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS,
> I
> > scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
> >
> > …...
> > Any comments most welcome.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Terry
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780?  There was 
a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.  

Or they could just be disks used for data exchange.  They would be in another 
DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2.

Jerry Weiss
j...@ieee.org


> On May 4, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
> thread I said...
> 
>> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8
> inch floppy disks.
>> They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them.
>> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
> was used to write the files.
>> They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.
> 
> Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some
> experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go.
> 
> It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
> scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
> 
> …...
> Any comments most welcome.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Terry

Re: Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density?
>I think that Dave has a utility to test that.

Yes, quite capable.  It passes Dave's test and I have read/written in
single density when archiving other stuff.  Archiving my FM/single density
POLY and Panasonic stuff was no problem.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part3.htm

>It is more likely to be successful in 98 ("real mode")

No, this (at least the executable) was definitely designed to be run in
Windows.  It tells me  so if I try to start it under pure MS-DOS.

>Do you have access to any sort of "flux-transition" device (Central point
option board, cat-weasel, kryoflux, etc.)?

No. That option is out for me.

Terry

Re: Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried.  Couldn't
do it at all.  Tons of errors, no tracks could be read.  IMD didn't
recognise the layout at all.
All the disks I tried were like this.


Then, either it is impossible to read with the PC FDC, or we missed 
something.


Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density?
I think that Dave has a utility to test that.


Do you have access to any sort of "flux-transition" device (Central point 
option board, cat-weasel, kryoflux, etc.)?

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>Does your system handle single density?  (some FDCs do; some don't)

Oh, yes it does.

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the density, bytes per
sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2)
>Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides?

>If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading through content
within sectors to get more clues about what's there.

Thanks Fred,

Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried.  Couldn't
do it at all.  Tons of errors, no tracks could be read.  IMD didn't
recognise the layout at all.

All the disks I tried were like this.

Terry

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 5 May 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.

It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them.


I don't know anything.but, I will point out a few things to look into.


Eventually I found Hunter Goatley's v 1.3 of Paul Nankervis's ODS2 at
http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?ODS2 .  This program
"Sector 1 read failed 87
PHYIO Error 500 Block 1 Length 512 (ASPI: 0 0 0)
Mount failed with 500"
Chuck G., does anyone know...
1. What that error means?
so far, only that it failed on what was probably the first sector that it 
tried.   "87" is probably not meningful to anybody except VMS

"PHYIO"  MIGHT mean physical I/O
"500" also isn't applicable to other systems.

2. If it would make a difference that I'm 
running the Win32 exe in Windows 98, rather than NT, 2000, XP etc.?


It is more likely to be successful in 98 ("real mode")


3. I'm not sure ODS2 was built with 8 inch disks in mind?
No idea.  But, other than NEC PC98, machines generally do NOT use the same 
format specs on 8:, 5.25, 3.5



Would it make a difference?

absolutely.
If there are more than one format available, then the read program might 
1) ASSUME one of the lot

2) have options to choose
3) attempt to detect what it sees.
Besides ODS-2, what about ODS-1 and ODS-5?
Find somebody who knows VMS, and find out what the options were.

CP/M disks in the 8 inch drive can be accessed and read/written to under 
MS-DOS by the machine I have the drive hooked up to, so I don't think 
it's a hardware issue.

Does your system handle single density?  (some FDCs do; some don't)

4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in some weird 
proprietary format OTHER than VMS?


quite possible.  For example, they might have, at some point in the past, 
used a program under VMS to copy their data to some other format that they 
thought might be handy, such as SSSD CP/M!



Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the density, bytes per 
sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2)

Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides?

If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading through content 
within sectors to get more clues about what's there.

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Hi guys,

Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
thread I said...

>Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8
inch floppy disks.
>They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them.
>They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
was used to write the files.
>They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.

Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some
experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go.

It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them.

Eventually I found Hunter Goatley's v 1.3 of Paul Nankervis's ODS2 at
http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?ODS2 .  This program
reads VMS disks from PCs.  The zip had a Win32 executable included.
The executable seems to run ok in the DOS window of the Win98 machine I've
attached the drive too, in that the Command Line Interface seems fine and I
can type and issue commands.  However, I've had no luck with mounting the
disk in ODS2.  The error I get (consistent over all disks) is:

"Sector 1 read failed 87
PHYIO Error 500 Block 1 Length 512 (ASPI: 0 0 0)
Mount failed with 500"

I may have reached the limit of my skill envelope.  Before I abandon the
task and suggest to these researchers to consider sending these disks to
Chuck C., does anyone know...

1. What that error means?
2. If it would make a difference that I'm running the Win32 exe in Windows
98, rather than NT, 2000, XP etc.?   The documentation doesn't mention
Windows 98, however the program does start to a CLI without a problem.
3. I'm not sure ODS2 was built with 8 inch disks in mind?  Would it make a
difference?  CP/M disks in the 8 inch drive can be accessed and
read/written to under MS-DOS by the machine  I have the drive hooked up to,
so I don't think it's a hardware issue.
4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in some weird proprietary
format OTHER than VMS?

Any comments most welcome.

Thanks!

Terry

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 10:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
>
> As I recall, NT/2K/XP will read PC98 floppies if they're in an Imation
> LS120 Superdrive or in a conforming  USB floppy drive.  I don't know
> about legacy floppy controllers.  It might also work in a Caleb HD144
> drive; I haven't checked that out.

Windows 2000 should be able to read and also low level format the
1024*8*2*77 format on 3.5-inch LS120 and USB floppy drives which
support it. Support would be dependent on the firmware in the drive.

I don't know about any earlier version of Windows NT as that was
before USB support was added and I never looked at that. Support
should have also been carried forward in newer versions of Windows,
but I would not be surprised if it got broken intentionally or
unintentionally somewhere along the way.

There is some code in the Windows sfloppy.sys driver for ATAPI and USB
attached floppy drives which does have hard coded tables of known
geometry formats. Anything outside of those known geometries it would
not be able to format. The sfloppy.sys driver is not involved with
legacy FDC attached floppy drives.

Source code for some version of the Windows sfloppy.sys driver is
available online:
https://github.com/Microsoft/Windows-driver-samples/blob/master/storage/sfloppy/src/floppy.c

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/17/2017 09:20 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> Is track 0 sector 1, formatted as 512BPS? If not, how does it even
> come up with the idea to try 1024BPS? (in order to read it, to find
> out that it should try it for reading it...)
> 
> (at location 0Bh in the BIOS Parameter Block, is the bytes per
> sector, but unless that sector is 512BPS, how did the OS read it to
> know to use that?) BPB doesn't include the number of tracks, but it
> does have the sectors per track, heads, and total number of sectors.
> It also has the "Media Descriptor Byte", but I wouldn't rely too much
> on that.)

No, the whole disk is 1024*8.   The first sector starts off like this:

00  EB 1C 90 4E 45 43 20 32 2E 30 30 00 04 01 01 00
10  02 C0 00 D0 04 FE 02 00 08 00 02 00 00 00 33 C0

I remembered that I wrote a NEC PC98 disk format driver for MS-DOS.
It's probably in SIMTEL20; it's called "NECSYS",

It will not only read and write PC98-format floppies, but will also
format them and deposit a PC98 boot in the first sector.

As I recall, NT/2K/XP will read PC98 floppies if they're in an Imation
LS120 Superdrive or in a conforming  USB floppy drive.  I don't know
about legacy floppy controllers.  It might also work in a Caleb HD144
drive; I haven't checked that out.

--Chuck

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

WinNT/2K/XP will read Japanese PC98 MS-DOS 1024*8*2*77, but I don't know
if it'll format that particular format (never tried).


Doubtful on FORMAT, since that is working from a very short list of 
choices, but reading (and hence writing) can be based on what it knows or 
finds out about the disk.

Well, FORMAT.EXE on a PC98 machine would certainly know how to do it.


Is track 0 sector 1, formatted as 512BPS?
If not, how does it even come up with the idea to try 1024BPS?
(in order to read it, to find out that it should try it for reading it...)

(at location 0Bh in the BIOS Parameter Block, is the bytes per sector, but 
unless that sector is 512BPS, how did the OS read it to know to use that?)
BPB doesn't include the number of tracks, but it does have the sectors per 
track, heads, and total number of sectors.  It also has the "Media 
Descriptor Byte", but I wouldn't rely too much on that.)

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/17/2017 07:01 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

> Yes, the point is Fred, it didn't. So, if /N is 15, then it must
> ONLY accept T:40 or 80, yea?


WinNT/2K/XP will read Japanese PC98 MS-DOS 1024*8*2*77, but I don't know
if it'll format that particular format (never tried).

--Chuck

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>If you can find an old registered copy of FORMATQM, it allowed very
>flexible formatting.   So, you could format a DMF floppy by defining a
>format in the FORMATS.CFG file thus:

Reminds me of NEWDOS/80 V2 on the TRS-80 Mod 1/III.  The PDRIVE command let
you define your very own disk format!

No one else but you could read it of course (:

Yes, so it's as I thought re: formatting the 8 inch drive. MS-DOS felt it
knew better than I did.

>If you are using an 8" drive, it should also have accepted 77.

Yes, the point is Fred, it didn't. So, if /N is 15, then it must ONLY
accept T:40 or 80, yea?

Terry (Tez)

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/17/2017 05:43 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>>> It may also be that is just doesn't support 77 and can only do 80
>>> tracks.
> 
>> I don't think it is this.  I can format it fine with 77 tracks
>> using 22DSK
> and IMD.  It has no problem reading or >writing to 77 track formatted
> disks.
> 
> Oh sorry Dwight, I thought you meant the drive here.  You mean MS-DOS
> 6.22 I guess.

What Fred said.  MS-DOS's format matches the parameters against what it
knows, not what you tell it.  For instance, you can't do /n:14 /t:80.

IMD and 22Disk have their own formatters and talk to the hardware directly.

If you can find an old registered copy of FORMATQM, it allowed very
flexible formatting.   So, you could format a DMF floppy by defining a
format in the FORMATS.CFG file thus:

  DMF: LENGTH 512 SECTORS 21 CYLINDERS 80 CLUSTER 2 RESERVED 1
  FIRST 1 MEDIAB 0F0 SIDES 2 INTERLEAVE 2 SKEW 3 DIRECTORY 16

You can even define your own boot sector.

FWIW,
Chuck

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>>It may also be that is just doesn't support 77 and can only do 80 tracks.

>I don't think it is this.  I can format it fine with 77 tracks using 22DSK
and IMD.  It has no problem reading or >writing to 77 track formatted disks.

Oh sorry Dwight, I thought you meant the drive here.  You mean MS-DOS 6.22
I guess.

Terry (Tez)

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017, dwight via cctalk wrote:
Some times it reads part of the disk. I don't know what it is looking at 
but it won't format over some types of original data. I've often erased 
with supper magnet to get past such stuff.


That really got silly when they added "UNFORMAT"!


It may also be that is just doesn't support 77 and can only do 80 tracks.


SOME version used to.  Not any more.

In the very early days, you could buy MS-DOS on 8"!

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>It may also be that is just doesn't support 77 and can only do 80 tracks.

I don't think it is this.  I can format it fine with 77 tracks using 22DSK
and IMD.  It has no problem reading or writing to 77 track formatted disks.

Terry

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[dwight via cctalk]

Some times it reads part of the disk. I don't know what it is looking at but it 
won't format over some types of original data. I've often erased with supper 
magnet to get past such stuff.

It may also be that is just doesn't support 77 and can only do 80 tracks.

Dwight



From: cctalk <cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org> on behalf of Terry Stewart via 
cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2017 4:36:01 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

>Here's a writeup for those interested:
>http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-
adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part1.htm

One thing in this project puzzled me.   Initially when I was testing the
drive I tried to format it for 77-tracks. I used the command FORMAT B: /u
/T:77 /N:15  .   It wouldn't let me.  MS-DOS said "
"Formatting 1.15M
parameters not supported by the drive"

After trying a few other things (unsuccessfully)  I just tried a straight
FORMAT B: /u
It then formatted it without complaint?

Listening to the head moving, I counted 77 tracks. The last three tracks
the clicking stopped.  I'm assuming the head just wrote over that final
track 3 times.  MS-DOS told me I'd formatted for 1.2MB.

I'm puzzled why I couldn't format the disk using the /t:77 and /n:15
switches.  Did MS-DOS just go by what was in the CMOS.  If that's the case,
why have those switches at all?   Are they just legacy switches for
pre-CMOS machines?

Anyone know the answer to this?

Terry (Tez)

>
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>Here's a writeup for those interested:
>http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-
adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part1.htm

One thing in this project puzzled me.   Initially when I was testing the
drive I tried to format it for 77-tracks. I used the command FORMAT B: /u
/T:77 /N:15  .   It wouldn't let me.  MS-DOS said "
"Formatting 1.15M
parameters not supported by the drive"

After trying a few other things (unsuccessfully)  I just tried a straight
FORMAT B: /u
It then formatted it without complaint?

Listening to the head moving, I counted 77 tracks. The last three tracks
the clicking stopped.  I'm assuming the head just wrote over that final
track 3 times.  MS-DOS told me I'd formatted for 1.2MB.

I'm puzzled why I couldn't format the disk using the /t:77 and /n:15
switches.  Did MS-DOS just go by what was in the CMOS.  If that's the case,
why have those switches at all?   Are they just legacy switches for
pre-CMOS machines?

Anyone know the answer to this?

Terry (Tez)

>
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[dwight via cctalk]

Hi Tez

 You where lucky. You had a format that was more or less standard. I have disk 
done in formats that are not so common.

One was a real toughie. I had some 5.25 and some 8 inch hard sectored disk in 
MFM format. These were for the Polymorphic machines. I'd modified a Polymorphic 
8 inch controller to run at the lower frequency of the 5.25 disk and was able 
to read most all of the 5.25 disk. This was the bulk of what needed to be done. 
I used my Poly88 as the reader and controlled it remotely from my PC through 
the serial lead.

I'd never got the time to reconfigure the controller board for the 8 inch disk. 
I finally got help form Chuck who was able to extract the data. Ihad to parse 
it into files but that was the easier part.

These are not in the common Polymorphic format that used the controller similar 
to the NorthStar. These were still hard sectored but MFM instead of FM. It was 
non-standard because it didn't use the ID and other MFM soft sectored markers.

What was cool about the 8 inch disk is that they contained the entire source 
code for the BASIC that Polymorphic used.

As an example of other formats, my Nicolet 1080 uses 8 inch 32 hard sectored 
disk and formats them as only two sector per track of 512 20 bit words.

None of these formats would read correctly on a PC controller.

One of the bit timing formats type of reader would have been needed.

Dwight



From: cctalk <cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org> on behalf of Terry Stewart via 
cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2017 3:19:33 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

Hi,

Just an update on this.  I still haven't got those 8' floppies of unknown
origin to play with but I HAVE made a lot of progress with my own disks.
Thanks to everyone who gave me help with this.

Here's a writeup for those interested:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part1.htm
Adventures with an 8 inch (8”) disk drive - Part 1. New acquisition: A 
Mitsubishi 
M2896-63<http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part1.htm>
www.classic-computers.org.nz
This page contains part 1 of an article on disk imaging experiences with an 8 
inch disk drive




Terry (Tez)

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Hi,

Just an update on this.  I still haven't got those 8' floppies of unknown
origin to play with but I HAVE made a lot of progress with my own disks.
Thanks to everyone who gave me help with this.

Here's a writeup for those interested:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part1.htm

Terry (Tez)

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>I'll add one more note that an 8" drive supports 77 tracks/cylinders,
>where a 5.25" high-density drive supports 80.   So be careful.

Noted.  Everything is now ready waiting for those bits and pieces to arrive
from the U.S.

Last night I spent some time going deeper into IMD118, 22DISK and ANADISK.
I read the documentation properly and carefully.  I also played around with
the programs on the 486 using some known floppies and formats. I tried
different options and checked the images in a binary editor relating what I
saw with what the docs said should be there.   I now have a better
understanding of how these programs work and what they can tell/do for the
user.

Dave D and Herb Johnston have some good info on 8 inch drives both in the
docs and the web.  The docs in 22DISK (Chuck's?) give some good info on
CP/M format configurations and how to determine unknown ones.

The MS-DOS 6.2 486 DX worked perfectly!

I'm looking forward to this project.  Even if I don't get anything off
those unknown 8 inch floppies I should be able to image my Panasonic
JD-850M CP/M ones.  That will be reward enough as they contain locally
written software and I'd like to archive it.

What might throw a spanner in the works is that the drive may be broken.
It looks fine but it is untested.  Guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Terry (Tez)

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/23/2017 10:50 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote:
> For the record, I and I'm sure lots of others look forward to this
> blog of experience. 

 Original message From: Terry
> Stewart via cctalk  One other question
> regarding using this MS-DOS 486 to run an 8 inch floppy

I'll add one more note that an 8" drive supports 77 tracks/cylinders,
where a 5.25" high-density drive supports 80.   So be careful.

--Chuck

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Sam O'nella via cctalk]

For the record, I and I'm sure lots of others look forward to this blog of 
experience.
 Original message From: Terry Stewart via cctalk 
 
One other question regarding using this MS-DOS 486 to run an 8 inch floppu

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/23/2017 04:53 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
> One other question regarding using this MS-DOS 486 to run an 8 inch
> floppy drive when attempting to read/imaging etc.of a god-knows-what
> format.
> 
> What should I set the BIOS to?  Should it be the 1.2MB 5.25 setting?
> Do I need to even worry about the bios if I don't want to boot off
> the 8 inch disk?

If you're using ImageDisk or 22Disk or most other
direct-controller-access utilities, it doesn't matter; the BIOS doesn't
play a part in the overall scheme.

If you want to goof around with it with DOS native utilities, you can
set the drive type to 1.2M 5.25".  Just note that the drive will always
be in high-density mode.  No 360K mode.

--Chuck

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Ali via cctalk]

Chuck,
Are these dumb adapters that just convert 34 to 50 or do they so more then 
that? Thanks.
-Ali

 Original message 
From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
Date: 3/23/17  1:59 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts… 

On 03/23/2017 01:32 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

> I was just going to suggest the same thing, but I see you (Tez) are 
> going the FDADAP route; more convenient for sure.
> 
> But the majority of the 34- and 50-pin signals actually line up 1 to
>  1 when aligned pin 34 to pin 50; as a matter of fact I have a system
> that uses the same 34-pin cable to connect to both, with just a
> jumper or two to select 5 or 8" (the index signal is one IIRC).


I've still got a couple of the Microsolutions "adapter cards" with 50-
and 34-pin headers.   They work in reverse as well.

--Chuck

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
To: <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…


> On 03/23/2017 01:32 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> I was just going to suggest the same thing, but I see you (Tez) are 
>> going the FDADAP route; more convenient for sure.
>> 
>> But the majority of the 34- and 50-pin signals actually line up 1 to
>>  1 when aligned pin 34 to pin 50; as a matter of fact I have a system
>> that uses the same 34-pin cable to connect to both, with just a
>> jumper or two to select 5 or 8" (the index signal is one IIRC).
> 
> 
> I've still got a couple of the Microsolutions "adapter cards" with 50-
> and 34-pin headers.   They work in reverse as well.
> 
> --Chuck
>

... And for the 24VDC I use these:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/150W-DC-DC-Boost-Converter-10-32V-to-12-35V-6A-Step-Up-Power-supply-module-/141316770525?hash=item20e722cadd:g:V2UAAOSw5cNYgyC5

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/23/2017 01:32 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

> I was just going to suggest the same thing, but I see you (Tez) are 
> going the FDADAP route; more convenient for sure.
> 
> But the majority of the 34- and 50-pin signals actually line up 1 to
>  1 when aligned pin 34 to pin 50; as a matter of fact I have a system
> that uses the same 34-pin cable to connect to both, with just a
> jumper or two to select 5 or 8" (the index signal is one IIRC).


I've still got a couple of the Microsolutions "adapter cards" with 50-
and 34-pin headers.   They work in reverse as well.

--Chuck

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…


> On 03/23/2017 12:59 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> There will be a hiatus in the project while I get the connecting
>> hardware organised. Then we will see what we will see.  Hopefully the
>> drive itself works.  I don't know that for sure yet.
> 
> For what it's worth, unless you're intent on *writing* 8" single-density
> floppies on the PC, the interconnect between the 8" drive 50-conductor
> cable and the PC 34-conductor one is pretty straightforward.  You don't
> need a FDADAP board for that, although it's very convenient.
> 
> --Chuck
>

I was just going to suggest the same thing, but I see you (Tez) are going the 
FDADAP route; more convenient for sure.

But the majority of the 34- and 50-pin signals actually line up 1 to 1 when 
aligned pin 34 to pin 50; as a matter of fact I have a system that uses the 
same 34-pin  cable to connect to both, with just a jumper or two to select 5 or 
8" (the index signal is one IIRC).

m

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>For what it's worth, unless you're intent on *writing* 8" single-density
>floppies on the PC, the interconnect between the 8" drive 50-conductor
>cable and the PC 34-conductor one is pretty straightforward.  You don't
>need a FDADAP board for that, although it's very convenient.

Yes, and I'm all for convenience given that reading these things will be a
challenge enough.

I've ordered an FDADAP board and also an FDDC power converter.
http://www.dbit.com/fddc.html
http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html

Now I just has to wait a week or two for them to arrive!

Terry (Tez)

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/23/2017 12:59 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

> There will be a hiatus in the project while I get the connecting
> hardware organised. Then we will see what we will see.  Hopefully the
> drive itself works.  I don't know that for sure yet.

For what it's worth, unless you're intent on *writing* 8" single-density
floppies on the PC, the interconnect between the 8" drive 50-conductor
cable and the PC 34-conductor one is pretty straightforward.  You don't
need a FDADAP board for that, although it's very convenient.

--Chuck

Re: RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>Let's start with determining the hardware aspects to see whether Terry's
machines are capable of reading the disks.

Yes, this is the first step for me.  Last night I pulled out an MS-DOS 486
that seems capable. It can read/write single density according to TESTFDC.
This is the machine I'll use.

There will be a hiatus in the project while I get the connecting hardware
organised. Then we will see what we will see.  Hopefully the drive itself
works.  I don't know that for sure yet.

Thanks for all comments and advice.

Terry

RE: RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 10:38 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> Let's not forget UCSD-Pascal or RT-11. :-)  Lot's of formats, some easier to
> recover than others.

Let's start with determining the hardware aspects to see whether Terry's
machines are capable of reading the disks.

Deciphering the file system structures can come after we know whether it
is going to be possible.

UCSD p-system, for example, is trivially easy to do IFF it is a hardware
compatible recording system.

_
Well, I can throw my hat in the ring of people with the capabilites to read 8" 
floppies.
Nothing set up at the moment, but I can set things up realtively easily if 
needed.

bill

Re: RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

Let's not forget UCSD-Pascal or RT-11. :-)  Lot's of formats, some easier to
recover than others.


Let's start with determining the hardware aspects to see whether Terry's 
machines are capable of reading the disks.


Deciphering the file system structures can come after we know whether it 
is going to be possible.


UCSD p-system, for example, is trivially easy to do IFF it is a hardware 
compatible recording system.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[dwight via cctalk]

What kind of science lab?

There are a couple of different lab computers to do things like chemical 
analysis. It could be a number of different. things.

Dwight



From: cctalk <cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org> on behalf of Terry Stewart via 
cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:39:48 PM
To: Fred Cisin; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

Thanks Guys,

Now I'm intimidated (-:

Just kiddingthat's useful stuff Fred.  Thanks for taking the time to
type all that out.

I'll give it a go...and see what I can see.  If anything it's a good excuse
for me to wire the drive up.  I'd like to image those Panasonic disks one
day for posterity and at least I should be able to do that.

Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common CP/M or
DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these guys your
email (-:

Cheers

Terry (Tez)



On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to
>>> look at.
>>>
>>
> On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Fred, how about the image of a Compugraphic typesetter floppy I have?
>> It uses Hebrew for its code set.
>> Feel up to it?
>>
>
> Nope.
> You're much better at it than I am.
> I was just trying to be encouraging, and suggesting some preliminary
> things that he could start with.
>
>
> Some disks were easy.
> And there were plenty that I never could figure out.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
>

RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 12:08 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

On 03/22/2017 08:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

> Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common
> CP/M or DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these
> guys your email (-:

Tez,

Here's what I would do in your situation.

If the disks are hard-sectored, forget it, unless you have the system
that wrote them.

If they're soft-sectored, dig through your pile of PC "tweeners" using
Dave Dunfield's "TestFDC" and see if you can find one that does
single-density.

Then hook your 8" drive to the PC and use his ImageDisk to grab a copy.

That way, you can tinker with the image to figure out what's going on.
Failing that, you can pass the image to the list here and see if it
rings any bells.

http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm

___

Let's not forget UCSD-Pascal or RT-11. :-)  Lot's of formats, some easier to
recover than others.

bill

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>Tez,

>Here's what I would do in your situation.

Excellent, thanks.

Terry (Tez)

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> > On Mar 22, 2017, at 23:08, Chuck Guzis via cctech 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 03/22/2017 08:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
> >>
> >> Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common
> >> CP/M or DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these
> >> guys your email (-:
> >
> > Tez,
> >
> > Here's what I would do in your situation.
> >
> > If the disks are hard-sectored, forget it, unless you have the system
> > that wrote them.
> >
>
> Not necessarily.  For example, I have used a Catweasel board to recover
> hard sectored Data General floppies.  But it is certainly much harder,
> particularly if the format is not known in advance.
>
>
> > If they're soft-sectored, dig through your pile of PC "tweeners" using
> > Dave Dunfield's "TestFDC" and see if you can find one that does
> > single-density.
> >
> > Then hook your 8" drive to the PC and use his ImageDisk to grab a copy.
> >
> > That way, you can tinker with the image to figure out what's going on.
> > Failing that, you can pass the image to the list here and see if it
> > rings any bells.
> >
> > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm
> >
> > --Chuck
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

> On Mar 22, 2017, at 23:08, Chuck Guzis via cctech  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 03/22/2017 08:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common
>> CP/M or DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these
>> guys your email (-:
> 
> Tez,
> 
> Here's what I would do in your situation.
> 
> If the disks are hard-sectored, forget it, unless you have the system
> that wrote them.
> 

Not necessarily.  For example, I have used a Catweasel board to recover hard 
sectored Data General floppies.  But it is certainly much harder, particularly 
if the format is not known in advance.


> If they're soft-sectored, dig through your pile of PC "tweeners" using
> Dave Dunfield's "TestFDC" and see if you can find one that does
> single-density.
> 
> Then hook your 8" drive to the PC and use his ImageDisk to grab a copy.
> 
> That way, you can tinker with the image to figure out what's going on.
> Failing that, you can pass the image to the list here and see if it
> rings any bells.
> 
> http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> 

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/22/2017 08:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

> Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common
> CP/M or DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these
> guys your email (-:

Tez,

Here's what I would do in your situation.

If the disks are hard-sectored, forget it, unless you have the system
that wrote them.

If they're soft-sectored, dig through your pile of PC "tweeners" using
Dave Dunfield's "TestFDC" and see if you can find one that does
single-density.

Then hook your 8" drive to the PC and use his ImageDisk to grab a copy.

That way, you can tinker with the image to figure out what's going on.
Failing that, you can pass the image to the list here and see if it
rings any bells.

http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm

--Chuck

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Thanks Guys,

Now I'm intimidated (-:

Just kiddingthat's useful stuff Fred.  Thanks for taking the time to
type all that out.

I'll give it a go...and see what I can see.  If anything it's a good excuse
for me to wire the drive up.  I'd like to image those Panasonic disks one
day for posterity and at least I should be able to do that.

Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common CP/M or
DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these guys your
email (-:

Cheers

Terry (Tez)



On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to
>>> look at.
>>>
>>
> On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Fred, how about the image of a Compugraphic typesetter floppy I have?
>> It uses Hebrew for its code set.
>> Feel up to it?
>>
>
> Nope.
> You're much better at it than I am.
> I was just trying to be encouraging, and suggesting some preliminary
> things that he could start with.
>
>
> Some disks were easy.
> And there were plenty that I never could figure out.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
>

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to
look at.


On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Fred, how about the image of a Compugraphic typesetter floppy I have?
It uses Hebrew for its code set.
Feel up to it?


Nope.
You're much better at it than I am.
I was just trying to be encouraging, and suggesting some preliminary 
things that he could start with.



Some disks were easy.
And there were plenty that I never could figure out.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/22/2017 04:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to 
> look at.

Fred, how about the image of a Compugraphic typesetter floppy I have?
It uses Hebrew for its code set.

Feel up to it?

--Chuck

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
floppy disks.  They want to see what???s on them, or at least to archive
them.  They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the
software was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other
format entirely.
Anyway, has anyone else faced this kind of challenge and what are your
thoughts?  I don???t want to start unless I at least have some chance of
success.  I???m not hopeful.  The more I read the more you seem to need real
forensic skills and something like Kyroflux that works at low-level.


How much work are you willing to put into it?

I used homemade tools to read and display sectors, but
you can accomplish quite a bit with whatever tools you have.

The PC is a relatively known quantity, and easy enough to work with.
Your CP/M machine, unless you are real lucky and it's the same or 8" SSSD, 
is going to be a little harder, until you know what FDC your CP/M machine 
uses, at what addresses, etc.



On machines with a Western Digital disk controller, such as TRS80 
(try using Trakcess), it is possible to do a TRACK READ, and look at that.  On 
machines with a flux transition board (kryoflux, catweasel, Central Point 
Option board), you can look at the raw image of the track.



On the PC, try to read a sector.   Even an MS-DOS DIR command gives some 
clues.
If you get BIOS error #2 (Address Mark not found), then you have the wrong 
density or encoding.


If you get BIOS error #4 (Sector Not Found), then you've got the right 
density.  That means that it sees what it recognizes as being sectors; 
they just aren't the one that you asked for.


If it is SD (FM) then SOME PC FDCs can read it, some not.
If it is DD (MFM) and 128 bytes per sector, then some PC FDCs can read it, 
some not.
If it is DD (MFM) and not 128 bytes per sector, then most PC FDCs can read 
it.
If it is MMFM, GCR, or something else, then PC FDC can not do it.  But a 
flux transition board (kryoflux, catweasel, etc.) might be able.


With 22Disk, XenoCopy, ImageDisk, etc. try various formats.  You MIGHT get 
lucky, particularly if it is 8" SSSD, but assuming that you don't 
get instant success, looking at what errors you get, you may be able to 
ascertain the bytes per sector, based on which formats don't balk at 
reading a sector.


If it happens to be 512 bytes per sector, then you can write some minor 
code with INT13h to read sectors.

If it is not 512 bytes per sector, then you will also need to hit INT1Eh.


Once you know the bytes per sector, check for the number of sectors per 
track.  There will only be a few possibilities for any given sector size.

Check whether any sectors are readable on the second side of the disk.
You can normally tell whether it is single or double sided by the position 
of the index hole on the disk, but there are some exceptions.


Watch out, that some disks number sectors from 0, some from 1, and some 
have special numbering, such as numbering from 81h or having an invalid 
value in the head number field of the sector header (particularly on the 
second side).  (All of which could give you BIOS error #4, but not error #2)



Once you can read sectors, the very first sector is always interesting. 
It will typically contain the bootstrap loader, which often has a text 
message to display!



Start looking for what might be the directory.
On MS-DOS, that will USUALLY start in the first track, with a boot sector, 
FATs, then directory entries.


On CP/M, it will USUALLY be in the first 3 or 4 tracks more often on the 
first side, but not always.


On "Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC", it will be near the "seek center".
Don Maslin once sent me copies of sectors near the middle of an NEC 8" 
disk.  It was surprisingly easy to calculate from their content which 
sectors would contain each file.


You may not find a recognizable or decipherable directory, in which case, 
you copy every sector, and start by looking for any strings of text.
If no text, then look to see if any of it makes sense as machine language 
of whatever processor might be in the source machine.


Be aware that a few disk formats, such as Superbrain, invert all of the 
bytes of each sector.




Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to look 
at.

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/22/2017 03:49 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:

> Anyway, has anyone else faced this kind of challenge and what are
> your thoughts?  I don’t want to start unless I at least have some
> chance of success.  I’m not hopeful.  The more I read the more you
> seem to need real forensic skills and something like Kyroflux that
> works at low-level.


I do it all the time.   There are more variations out there than you'd
otherwise think.   Not everything looks like DOS or CP/M, by a long shot.

I just received a shipment of hard-sector Wang 8 inchers, along with a
bunch of 8" soft-sector Displaywriter floppies.   Neither is CP/M or
DOS--or anything that Tandy ever built.

If I don't know what's on the disk (i.e. unlabeled), I'll start by using
an MS-DOS machine than can handle SD floppies--assuming that they're
soft-sector.

After that, I'll pull out my Catweasel-equipped system and crunch the
raw pulses--you could be dealing with MMFM or GCR, for example.

--Chuck

Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Hi,



I’ve posted this to the VCF too…apologies for cross-posting.


I’d be grateful for any guidance or comments anyone could give me on this
problem.


Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
floppy disks.  They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive
them.  They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the
software was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other
format entirely.


I’ve got little experience with 8 inch drives or disk formats.  However I
have got a bare 8 inch floppy drive (a Mitsubishi M2896-63 Half Height
8inch DSDD), and also a CP/M computer with 8 inch drives (A Panasonic
JD-850M).  I’m thinking it might be an interesting challenge/project to see
if I can read these disks and get files off.


However, I imagine given all the unknowns it won’t be easy…perhaps even
impossible


I see two possible approaches.  One is to wire up the 8 inch drive to an
MS-DOS machine.  I’ll have to build/get a PSU for the drive so it can
supply the necessary 24 Volts required.  I’ll also have to make up a
special drive cable.   That info is available.  In fact, Chuck gave me some
tips a year or so ago.   However, once I’ve got the drive successfully
wired up, I then need to somehow analysis the disks to see what format they
are in.  Does anyone know of any software that will do this?  I’m aware of
disk22, for reading KNOWN CP/M formats but is there anything out there that
will analyse a disk from scratch?  Search the web has thrown up a few
possibilies (MMCPC, Cpmtools) but I haven’t explored them at all.


The second approach is to use the Panasonic JD-850M, and find a CP/M
program that will analyse an “unknown” 8 inch disk and read files from said
disks into the CP/M environment.  I’d somehow get the program into one of
my Panasonic 8 inch disks (just how, I’ll need to figure out).  I’d also
need to figure out how to get the files out of that environment also.


Anyway, has anyone else faced this kind of challenge and what are your
thoughts?  I don’t want to start unless I at least have some chance of
success.  I’m not hopeful.  The more I read the more you seem to need real
forensic skills and something like Kyroflux that works at low-level.


Thanks


Terry (Tez)