Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 at 08:46, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > In the late eighties I used to use E, an editor developed internally at IBM. > My dad had retired from there by then but got it from > ex-colleagues. I see you can get it from here now > https://winworldpc.com/product/ibm-e-editor/3x FWIW, it's part of PC-DOS 7, 2000 (7.01) and 7.1. 7.1 is a free download from IBM as part of the ServerGuide Scripting Toolkit. It's only the kernel and a few utilities, though. You need the rest of PC-DOS 2000, but that was bundled with VirtualPC which Microsoft bought and have made a free download. I've blogged about how to assemble your own copy, and point to some VirtualBox pre-installed disk images. https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/59703.html > I also used WordStar on those OSs and I'm sure lots of you will fondly > remember the LIST viewer by Vernon Buerg. I loved that program. Oh my yes! I was a regular user of LIST in my OS/2 days. I had forgotten all about it! -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
I used pmate in my early DOS years (1982-83) eventually switching back to vi when it was available. That might have been the MKS (Mortice Kern Systems) version. I have a copy of pmate but its two or three files are tangled up on a disk image with some unrelated .com files. When I can sort them out and find the cheat sheet, I'll make them available. On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 2:46 AM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > In the late eighties I used to use E, an editor developed internally at > IBM. My dad had retired from there by then but got it from > ex-colleagues. I see you can get it from here now > https://winworldpc.com/product/ibm-e-editor/3x > > Already mentioned is Brief, I still have the light green box on the shelf. > This was ultra customisable but like many, just used it as-is. > > A super compact and snappy editor was the one built into Turbo Pascal. > IIRC it used WordStar bindings. It was so compact on CP/M that I > kept the whole integrated editor/Pascal compiler on my 8" floppies just > for editing my COBOL assignments, later on using the DOS version > in Turbo C / C++. > > I also used WordStar on those OSs and I'm sure lots of you will fondly > remember the LIST viewer by Vernon Buerg. I loved that program. > >
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
In the late eighties I used to use E, an editor developed internally at IBM. My dad had retired from there by then but got it from ex-colleagues. I see you can get it from here now https://winworldpc.com/product/ibm-e-editor/3x Already mentioned is Brief, I still have the light green box on the shelf. This was ultra customisable but like many, just used it as-is. A super compact and snappy editor was the one built into Turbo Pascal. IIRC it used WordStar bindings. It was so compact on CP/M that I kept the whole integrated editor/Pascal compiler on my 8" floppies just for editing my COBOL assignments, later on using the DOS version in Turbo C / C++. I also used WordStar on those OSs and I'm sure lots of you will fondly remember the LIST viewer by Vernon Buerg. I loved that program.
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Fri, 1 Oct 2021 at 15:06, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 1 Oct 2021, at 12:58, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> >> Discontinued some years ago, sadly. > > Yes, and instead they made BBEdit free for the most part. That’s what I’m > using. Still got TextWrangler on the older Macs of course. True and fair. I personally have no use for language plugins and so on -- I only need text editors for plain-text files, not program code. The thing is that I want and like small, fast, simple editors that start very quickly and just do text and nothing else. 90% of the time I don't want colour-coding or syntax highlighting or any of that. I just want something that loads too fast to see and has the standard UI with CUA menus and so on so I can do what I have to do and get out, ASAP. Which is where a lot of widely-admired editors fall down. Atom, VSCode etc are vast lumbering things. Anything written in Javascript made into a standalone app inevitably becomes Howl's Moving Castle, to echo Steve Yegge's observation: « Scheme is an exotic sports car. Fast. Manual transmission. No radio. Emacs Lisp is a 1984 Subaru GL 4WD: "the car that's always in front of you." Common Lisp is Howl's Moving Castle. » TextWrangler was much smaller than BBEdit so it won for me. Once it wasn't an option, well, BBEdit lost out. I found a tiny thing called "TextEd". It's like macOS Text Edit but much smaller and faster because it doesn't support formatting or RTF or anything. I can post a link later; I'm on a different machine right now. Vi, Joe, Nano, Pico etc also fail this, because of their weird UIs and because they're shell-based and frankly if I'm in a GUI I want a GUI app. Tilde is my preferred console Linux editor now, but sadly, it doesn't work with things like the Git commit command -- no template is inserted. So I have my default set to mcedit, which is still a bit weird but at least only a bit. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
I'm using BBEdit (paid version) on my Mac and I really like it. The language plug-ins are very helpful. On 10/1/21, 9:06 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham via cctalk" wrote: > On 1 Oct 2021, at 12:58, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 1 Oct 2021 at 05:03, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk > wrote: > >> For the Mac, there is TextWrangler (free version >> of BBEdit), with many useful capabilities (such as editing a remote file >> via an sftp:// URL, for example). > > Discontinued some years ago, sadly. > Yes, and instead they made BBEdit free for the most part. That’s what I’m using. Still got TextWrangler on the older Macs of course. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaursf: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
> On 1 Oct 2021, at 12:58, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 1 Oct 2021 at 05:03, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk > wrote: > >> For the Mac, there is TextWrangler (free version >> of BBEdit), with many useful capabilities (such as editing a remote file >> via an sftp:// URL, for example). > > Discontinued some years ago, sadly. > Yes, and instead they made BBEdit free for the most part. That’s what I’m using. Still got TextWrangler on the older Macs of course. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaursf: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Fri, 1 Oct 2021 at 05:03, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > For the Mac, there is TextWrangler (free version > of BBEdit), with many useful capabilities (such as editing a remote file > via an sftp:// URL, for example). Discontinued some years ago, sadly. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 9/28/21 2:19 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: Editors are like religion once you have a favorite you defend it like crazy. My lovely wife still uses QEdit under a DOS emulator running on Linux. I occasionally still use an editor that I wrote for CP/M-80, and then ported to MS-DOS. The advantage is that it's very small and I can modify it at will. --Chuck I used see.exe early with MS-DOS, that you could record macros with. I liked terse.com's 4K footprint. Much later, I liked QEdit's capability to move rectangular blocks of text (composed of both rows and columns). Then again, when I was required to work across MS-DOS, Windows and several Unix flavors, I standardized on vi or related clones. WATCOM C for MS-DOS or Windows came with a pretty good vi. There was also ELVIS. And, VIM was easy to port across many OSs, including VMS (all my VMS machines have it). For the Mac, there is TextWrangler (free version of BBEdit), with many useful capabilities (such as editing a remote file via an sftp:// URL, for example). Carlos.
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Thu, 30 Sept 2021 at 08:29, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On the west coast, we were doing our initial development on a VAX > 11/750, but at some point I asked the folks back in St. Paul what they > were using for an editor. OGNATE! I was dumbfounded--you see, the > ETA-10 has many fewer instructions than the STAR-100 did, among the > missing were some of the more esoteric ones used in OGNATE. Someone had > painstakingly coded emulations for each of those instructions. That's pretty impressive! -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On 9/29/21 10:22 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > I started on 8-bitters. On minis, I first encountered EDT (on VMS), > then Emacs (on UNIX, AmigaDOS, and even VMS), then years later when I > was working for Lucent/Bell Labs, vi... Okay, story time. Back in the early-mid 1970s, I found myself on the CDC STAR-100 project software being run out of Sunnyvale. While we had two 1/100th speed emulators on-site, the Real Thing was back in Arden Hills at the end of a 9600 bps leased line, multiplexed locally to several 1200 bps async lines. (Remember the Bell 209 modem?). A WYSIWYG editor was out of the question at 1200 bps and fairly primitive CRT terminals, a line editor was the choice. The one supplied with the system software was terrible and awkward, so I decided to bootleg a better one. For those of you who don't know the old iron, the STAR-100/(later CYBER 200) was a big (physically large) vector machine with virtual memory and a huge instruction set. Its fatal weak point was that scalars were treated as vectors of length 1, and so created bubbles in the two vector unit pipelines. But golly, with a 48 bit addressing space, vector lengths up to 65K elements, all sorts of fancy bitmapped control vectors, and the ability to map an entire file into an address range (leave the I/O to the pager), the thing was begging for some experimentation. So I threw together a line-oriented editor using mostly vector and string instructions and called it OGNATE (for Oh god not another text editor). It only took a couple of days of scribbling. I revisited the big vector scene a decade later after a detour into the micro world, when CDC spun off ETA systems to produce a liquid nitrogen-cooled version, initially called the GF-10, later the ETA-10. On the west coast, we were doing our initial development on a VAX 11/750, but at some point I asked the folks back in St. Paul what they were using for an editor. OGNATE! I was dumbfounded--you see, the ETA-10 has many fewer instructions than the STAR-100 did, among the missing were some of the more esoteric ones used in OGNATE. Someone had painstakingly coded emulations for each of those instructions. Ah, memories... --Chuck
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 5:30 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > "Baby Duck Syndrome": you bond to the first one. Any time you are tempted > to switch, everything that any other one does differently is "just all > wrong". If you are eventually compelled to switch, you will bond to a new > one; and every other one "just does it all wrong". > > 'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. Such as VI VS EMACS. I started on 8-bitters. On minis, I first encountered EDT (on VMS), then Emacs (on UNIX, AmigaDOS, and even VMS), then years later when I was working for Lucent/Bell Labs, vi... I'm all kinds of messed up, but mostly I use vi(m) these days. It's not perfect (oh, buy, it's not perfect!) but I can have the same experience going from platform to platform to platform. That's worth it. -ethan
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 20:25, ben via cctalk wrote: > I like TERSE for dos. A 4096 byte sized editor for DOS. > 64Kb files only, but good for editing from a floppy > when we had them. Still can be found on the web. > Ben. That is really quite impressive! https://texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Terse -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On 2021-09-29 10:16 a.m., Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: But really nothing to love. Then I learned VAX/VMS at Uni and I didn't love EDT, although later I learned Edlin on DOS in my first job, and that made me miss EDT very badly. I think it was probably only when DR-DOS and MS-DOS 5+ included decent full-screen CUA editors that I actually found ones I _liked_ using. Which is why I want to properly CUA-ify Emacs -- and *no* cua-mode is _not_ an acceptable answer -- but dear hypothetical deities, the resistance from the Emacs fans... yeesh. I like TERSE for dos. A 4096 byte sized editor for DOS. 64Kb files only, but good for editing from a floppy when we had them. Still can be found on the web. Ben.
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 06:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Writing to the video memory was the simplest and most straightforward way > to do it "*Real* programmers use a magnetized needle and a steady hand." https://xkcd.com/378/ -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven • Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 01:47, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Control-C, Control-X & Control-P for copy, cut and paste in Windows 11 > dates back to Wordstar on 8-Bit CPM systems in the 80s. No they didn't. They came from the Mac: https://ieee-isto.org/isto-blog/standards-for-cut-copy-and-past/ The Windows standard _was_ Shift-Del to cut, Ctrl-Ins to cut, Shift-Ins to paste. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut,_copy,_and_paste#Cut_and_paste Nobody could remember it, including CUA evangelist me -- I had to look that up -- so they switched to PC-ified Mac standard. TBH I can't remember when; I am not sure but it might have been in Windows 3.0, the first release after the divorce from IBM. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven • Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 01:37, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I confess to having Wordstar so thoroughly burned into my reflexes It was once, yes. I got better. But now: http://wordtsar.ca/ > that > I still use joe under linux. Tilde FTW. https://os.ghalkes.nl/tilde > Let's not forget MINCE, either. Ran on 8-bit x80 systems, emacs subset > with a nested acronym of a name. Ultimately became Borland Sprint! http://www.sci.wsu.edu/math/faculty/barnes/borland/sprint.htm -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven • Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 00:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Can EMACS be expanded enough to emulate VI? https://www.linode.com/docs/guides/emacs-evil-mode/ > Can VI be expanded enough to emulate EMACS? https://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=300 There's something almost poetic in their mutual love-hate relationship. Yin and yang. :-D > About 3 decades ago, there was some linguistic analysis of effects on > writing style with some editors. > There were some very simplistic conclusions, such as that small screen > (number of characters/lines, NOT square footage) produced choppier > writing, with more repetitions, due to not seeing both paragraphs at the > same time. > > It really should be studied in depth, including expanding the algorithms > of Flesch-Kincaid, SMOG, Coleman-Liau, ARI, Linser Write Formula, > phrase repetition analysis, etc. Nifty idea! -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven • Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Tue, 28 Sept 2021 at 23:55, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Fred Cisin said "'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. > Such as VI VS EMACS." > > I cannot agree more. I know many people who live in VI thought I cannot > fathom why. I worked at Red Hat briefly and SUSE for more than anywhere else in my career. I know Vi fans in their 20s, people born well after I first used it and disliked it on SCO Xenix. I didn't fall in love with my first editor (probably the full-screen BASIC editor on the Commodore PET), or with Sinclair BASIC's (which was pretty horrible but Beta BASIC made it better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_BASIC ) And the SAM Coupé's BASIC -- written by the same chap -- was much more pleasant as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAM_Coup%C3%A9 But really nothing to love. Then I learned VAX/VMS at Uni and I didn't love EDT, although later I learned Edlin on DOS in my first job, and that made me miss EDT very badly. I think it was probably only when DR-DOS and MS-DOS 5+ included decent full-screen CUA editors that I actually found ones I _liked_ using. Which is why I want to properly CUA-ify Emacs -- and *no* cua-mode is _not_ an acceptable answer -- but dear hypothetical deities, the resistance from the Emacs fans... yeesh. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven • Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702-829-053
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it." :q you're welcome No, no... you're doing it all wrong ... it's ZZ See . :q is colon q enter, so 3 buttons. ZZ is jsut 2 buttons (shift doesn't count and z is close to shift anyway, so one hand) And thus holy wars even exist inside the vi/vim vs emacs 'war' ... I use vim daily - minimal features, barley more than what vi can do. I'm using alpine email, so mostly a nano-like editor here althogh sometimes I drop into vim to do some formatting, etc. which I find easier in vim. My own editor is nano-like (I have C and BCPL versions) but often feel that I want some vi style global commands, so one day it might morph into something like that. And some 30 ish years back I was helping to "bring-up" a new unix-like system and they wanted emacs - I managed to port microEmacs to it at the time, but to do that I wanted a vi for myself, so ported "stvie" then used that to help with the port of µEmacs but that's as close as I got to emacs... Brand loyalty and all that... Gordon
RE: Found my favorite DOS editor
Van,Is this for the manual I picked up from you? It was red three ring binder deal.-Ali Original message From: Van Snyder via cctech Date: 9/28/21 1:07 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cct...@classiccmp.org Subject: Found my favorite DOS editor I found files for my favorite DOS editor on an archive from my OS/2machine, which replaced my DOS machine in about 1990.The editor was ETOOL, from Amerisoft.If anybody wants the files, I'm happy to send them.-rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 245248 Mar 8 1988 e/dos/etool.exe-rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 1024 Mar 8 1988 e/dos/etool.fig-rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 83968 Jul 9 1985 e/dos/etool.hlpI lost the manual decades ago.Van snydervan.sny...@sbcglobal.net
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, John Herron via cctalk wrote: For those of you who wrote your own editors. How did you display special ASCII characters? Years ago, In highschool I tried writing a hex editor (in qbasic so this may have been the problem) but when display anything that had a function like chr 07 it would activate instead of display. I gave up since I couldn't figure it out other than writing directly to video memory. Writing to the video memory was the simplest and most straightforward way to do it, and get around QBASIC, DOS, or BIOS calls that "understand" that character 7 is BELL. REP MOVSW let you copy back and forth between your own buffer and the screen memory in a decent amount of time. I had stopped using BASIC by the time that QBASIC came out, but in BASIC, BASICA, GWBASIC (It was once "Gee Whiz BASIC", but Microsoft claims that they don't remember what "GW" stood for!), you can DEF SEG and then POKE -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
I spent years working in field service, and this was a conversation I had multiple times per day... Me: Silently types 'vi ' or 'edlin ' depending on the platform Client: Wow you still use - You should use Qedit12005b its the best! me: But the next client I visit won't have Qedit12005b, so I would have to install it. Client: . Got monotonous after a bit. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 13:58, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/28/21 8:37 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > For those of you who wrote your own editors. How did you display special > > ASCII characters? Years ago, In highschool I tried writing a hex editor > (in > > qbasic so this may have been the problem) but when display anything that > > had a function like chr 07 it would activate instead of display. I gave > up > > since I couldn't figure it out other than writing directly to video > memory. > > > > On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 8:13 PM Van Snyder via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 15:49 -0700, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > >>> Since EMACS has a full programming language (elisp), you can write > >>> anything you want in it (mail readers, browsers, calendar apps, other > >>> editors, etc) > >> > >> Years ago, one of my colleagues showed me a pocket reference card > >> jesting about "hello world." > >> > >> At the end of the description of "GNU hello" was a remark "and like any > >> self-respecting program, it has a built-in mail reader." > > Mine was in assembly and Ctrol-V signified a literal character, no > matter what it was. Wordstar has a similar feature, IIRC. > > Of course, all of the I/O string handling was count+data, not "delimeted > by null", so that made it easier. > > --Chuck > >
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On 9/28/21 8:37 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > For those of you who wrote your own editors. How did you display special > ASCII characters? Years ago, In highschool I tried writing a hex editor (in > qbasic so this may have been the problem) but when display anything that > had a function like chr 07 it would activate instead of display. I gave up > since I couldn't figure it out other than writing directly to video memory. > > On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 8:13 PM Van Snyder via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 15:49 -0700, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: >>> Since EMACS has a full programming language (elisp), you can write >>> anything you want in it (mail readers, browsers, calendar apps, other >>> editors, etc) >> >> Years ago, one of my colleagues showed me a pocket reference card >> jesting about "hello world." >> >> At the end of the description of "GNU hello" was a remark "and like any >> self-respecting program, it has a built-in mail reader." Mine was in assembly and Ctrol-V signified a literal character, no matter what it was. Wordstar has a similar feature, IIRC. Of course, all of the I/O string handling was count+data, not "delimeted by null", so that made it easier. --Chuck
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
For those of you who wrote your own editors. How did you display special ASCII characters? Years ago, In highschool I tried writing a hex editor (in qbasic so this may have been the problem) but when display anything that had a function like chr 07 it would activate instead of display. I gave up since I couldn't figure it out other than writing directly to video memory. On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 8:13 PM Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 15:49 -0700, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > Since EMACS has a full programming language (elisp), you can write > > anything you want in it (mail readers, browsers, calendar apps, other > > editors, etc) > > Years ago, one of my colleagues showed me a pocket reference card > jesting about "hello world." > > At the end of the description of "GNU hello" was a remark "and like any > self-respecting program, it has a built-in mail reader." > >
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 15:49 -0700, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > Since EMACS has a full programming language (elisp), you can write > anything you want in it (mail readers, browsers, calendar apps, other > editors, etc) Years ago, one of my colleagues showed me a pocket reference card jesting about "hello world." At the end of the description of "GNU hello" was a remark "and like any self-respecting program, it has a built-in mail reader."
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
You are correct, in WordStar I was Control-K + C for copy, Control-K + V for move block. In Windows it's Control-C for copy and Control-V for paste. I was wrong about control P, that is print in windows. Sorry, my memory is going. In my defense its still C for copy and V for paste in both. On 9/28/2021 7:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 9/28/21 4:46 PM, Mike Katz wrote: Control-C, Control-X & Control-P for copy, cut and paste in Windows 11 dates back to Wordstar on 8-Bit CPM systems in the 80s. Are you certain about that? Ctrl-C = Page down Ctrl-X = Line down Ctrl-P = not on WS One way to remember this is to look at the keyboard and visualize a "diamond" of keys; center is S and D for character left and right, Below is X for line down, above is E for line up. Similarly, next to X you have C, for page down, Next to E is R, for page up. And so on... --Chuck
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On 9/28/21 4:46 PM, Mike Katz wrote: > Control-C, Control-X & Control-P for copy, cut and paste in Windows 11 > dates back to Wordstar on 8-Bit CPM systems in the 80s. Are you certain about that? Ctrl-C = Page down Ctrl-X = Line down Ctrl-P = not on WS One way to remember this is to look at the keyboard and visualize a "diamond" of keys; center is S and D for character left and right, Below is X for line down, above is E for line up. Similarly, next to X you have C, for page down, Next to E is R, for page up. And so on... --Chuck
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
Control-C, Control-X & Control-P for copy, cut and paste in Windows 11 dates back to Wordstar on 8-Bit CPM systems in the 80s. On 9/28/2021 6:36 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 9/28/21 3:49 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: Yes. There is an elisp package called EVIL (Extensible VI Layer) that emulates VI in EMACS. I confess to having Wordstar so thoroughly burned into my reflexes that I still use joe under linux. Let's not forget MINCE, either. Ran on 8-bit x80 systems, emacs subset with a nested acronym of a name. --Chuck
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On 9/28/21 3:49 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > Yes. There is an elisp package called EVIL (Extensible VI Layer) that > emulates VI in EMACS. I confess to having Wordstar so thoroughly burned into my reflexes that I still use joe under linux. Let's not forget MINCE, either. Ran on 8-bit x80 systems, emacs subset with a nested acronym of a name. --Chuck
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On 9/28/21 3:41 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it." :q you're welcome Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: To Exit EMACS: Control-X Control-C Can EMACS be expanded enough to emulate VI? Yes. There is an elisp package called EVIL (Extensible VI Layer) that emulates VI in EMACS. Since EMACS has a full programming language (elisp), you can write anything you want in it (mail readers, browsers, calendar apps, other editors, etc). I've written a few things in elisp to mainly deal with global changes that were more complicated than I could figure out with a SED script. Can VI be expanded enough to emulate EMACS? No idea. -- TTFN - Guy
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
"I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it." :q you're welcome Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: To Exit EMACS:?? Control-X Control-C I once saw a car with a vanity plate: CTRL K D (Wordstar for save and exit) Can EMACS be expanded enough to emulate VI? Can VI be expanded enough to emulate EMACS? About 3 decades ago, there was some linguistic analysis of effects on writing style with some editors. There were some very simplistic conclusions, such as that small screen (number of characters/lines, NOT square footage) produced choppier writing, with more repetitions, due to not seeing both paragraphs at the same time. It really should be studied in depth, including expanding the algorithms of Flesch-Kincaid, SMOG, Coleman-Liau, ARI, Linser Write Formula, phrase repetition analysis, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 15:13 -0700, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > I only use VI if I absolutely must and always have issues with the > modality. I was told to worry about the damage I could do to my filing system by typing my password when VI is in the wrong mode.
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 14:29 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/28/21 2:19 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Editors are like religion once you have a favorite you defend it > > like > > crazy. > > My lovely wife still uses QEdit under a DOS emulator running on > Linux. > > I occasionally still use an editor that I wrote for CP/M-80, and then > ported to MS-DOS. The advantage is that it's very small and I can > modify it at will. > > --Chuck I started using nedit when I switched from OS/2 to Linux. I like it much better than the ones I used earlier. As others have notices, all the others do everything wrong.
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
> On 28 Sep 2021, at 23:13, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 9/28/21 3:02 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 9/28/2021 2:48 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it." >>> >>> :q >>> >>> you're welcome >>> >> Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. > > Why would you ever want to get out of EMACS? ;-) For some reason it’s embedded in my cranium that to exit TECO it’s CTRL-C . No idea why I remember that since I’ve not used TECO since the 80s, and only then out of curiosity. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaursf: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
> > > "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't > > > figure out how to exit it." > > > > :q > > > > you're welcome > > Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. I think people missed the part where I said I typed the reply (and, for that matter, this reply) in vi. But it's still my favourite vi joke. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- I used to not finish sentences, but now I --
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On 9/28/21 3:02 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: On 9/28/2021 2:48 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it." :q you're welcome Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. Why would you ever want to get out of EMACS? ;-) Editors I've used: * SOS (Son-Of-Stopgap) on TOPS-10 * TECO-10 on TOPS-10 * XEDIT on VM/370 * EMACS I only use VI if I absolutely must and always have issues with the modality. -- TTFN - Guy
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
To Exit EMACS: Control-X Control-C On 9/28/2021 5:02 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: On 9/28/2021 2:48 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it." :q you're welcome Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. thanks Jim
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On 9/28/2021 4:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: 'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. Such as VI VS EMACS. "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it." (written in vi) I try to stay out of the VI/Emacs war, but I do use VI on all my devices. I had a portable DOS, OS/2, Win16 console, Win32Console, Linux set of floppies I could easily pop in to have VI on any machine I needed to work on/with. It was less of affinity for the specific editor as it was just a need for some consistency so I could focus attention on other things. Jim -- Jim Brain br...@jbrain.com www.jbrain.com
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On 9/28/2021 2:48 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it." :q you're welcome Or having to power cycle the machine to get out of EMACS. thanks Jim
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
Hold down the shift key and press the letter Z twice. You're free, you're free and freedom tastes like reality... On 9/28/2021 4:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: 'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. Such as VI VS EMACS. "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it." (written in vi)
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
Fred Cisin said "'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. Such as VI VS EMACS." I cannot agree more. I know many people who live in VI thought I cannot fathom why. My first screen based editor (as opposed to a text editor), in 1980, was John F. Wakerly's Programma Improved Editor (Pie) for the Flex Operating System on a Gimix 6809 system. It was not a modal editor, the cursor keys and editing keys were active all the time. So I never got used to or understood an editor where you had to change modes to either type or move the cursor (like VI). Tongue in cheek here "Vi is just a semi visual front end hacked on the Unix line oriented text editor Ed". Please don't flame me or start a war with me for saying that. But it is true.
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
"I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it." :q you're welcome
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
> 'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. Such as VI VS EMACS. "I've been using vi for about two years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit it." (written in vi) -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- Faith is to be sure of what you hope for. -- The Kry, "Take My Hand" ---
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: Editors are like religion once you have a favorite you defend it like crazy. "Baby Duck Syndrome": you bond to the first one. Any time you are tempted to switch, everything that any other one does differently is "just all wrong". If you are eventually compelled to switch, you will bond to a new one; and every other one "just does it all wrong". I was compelled to switch many times, and had to learn severaal different one. They ALL "do it all wrong". I did my PhD written exams on Windows Write. I was the first person in SLIS (UCBerkeley "School of Library and Information Studies") to do them on a computer - "Unless you want to admit that you grade on penmanship." 'course, then there are the MAJOR religious battles. Such as VI VS EMACS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
On 9/28/21 2:19 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Editors are like religion once you have a favorite you defend it like > crazy. My lovely wife still uses QEdit under a DOS emulator running on Linux. I occasionally still use an editor that I wrote for CP/M-80, and then ported to MS-DOS. The advantage is that it's very small and I can modify it at will. --Chuck
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
Editors are like religion once you have a favorite you defend it like crazy. I discovered the Basic Reconfigurable Interactive Editing Facility (Brief), initially sold by Underware and then Solution Systems, in the late 80s. It quickly became my favorite editor. Eventually Borland bought it and killed it. Now I use SlickEdit in Brief emulation mode on Windows and several versions of Linux. Slickedit is a great multi emulation, powerful editor. I recommend you check it out. Deep down inside I also have a soft spot for EMACS. And, BTW, there is a native (not Teco macros) OS/8 version of an EMACS like editor that can be found here: https://tangentsoft.com/e8/wiki?name=Home I have used it extensively on my PiDP-8/I under OS/8 and I intend to use it on my real, newly acquired, PDP-8/E when I get some mass storage and I can run OS/8. On 9/28/2021 1:27 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: I found files for my favorite DOS editor on an archive from my OS/2 machine, which replaced my DOS machine in about 1990. The editor was ETOOL, from Amerisoft. If anybody wants the files, I'm happy to send them. -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 245248 Mar 8 1988 e/dos/etool.exe -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 1024 Mar 8 1988 e/dos/etool.fig -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 83968 Jul 9 1985 e/dos/etool.hlp I lost the manual decades ago. Van Snyder van.sny...@sbcglobal.net
Found my favorite DOS editor
I found files for my favorite DOS editor on an archive from my OS/2 machine, which replaced my DOS machine in about 1990. The editor was ETOOL, from Amerisoft. If anybody wants the files, I'm happy to send them. -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 245248 Mar 8 1988 e/dos/etool.exe -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 1024 Mar 8 1988 e/dos/etool.fig -rw-r--r-- 1 vsnyder staff 83968 Jul 9 1985 e/dos/etool.hlp I lost the manual decades ago. Van Snyder van.sny...@sbcglobal.net
