Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[r.stricklin]

Hooleon does/did. For other keyboards as well.

ok
bear.

-- 
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 16, 2016, at 11:41, geneb  wrote:
> 
> 
> Does anyone other than Unicomp make different key caps?

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[geneb]

On Thu, 16 Jun 2016, Earl Baugh wrote:


From: Swift Griggs 

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, geneb wrote:

I just wish the Unicomp keys were two-part keys like the Model M uses.

I wish ALL keyboards did that... it's a superior design, IMHO.


I'm puzzled, what do you mean two part?  Cap and key?
That's all I've gotten from Unicomp...  That's how I got all of the "blank"
caps from...


I stand corrected! I just pulled a key stem off my PC-102 (has 24 function 
keys) and it IS a two-part key.  I'd looked at the Model M I got from 
Unicomp years ago and I could've sworn it didn't have the two part key. 
Maybe I thought that because the cap is much more firmly attached on their 
keyboard than it is the original IBM Model M.


Does anyone other than Unicomp make different key caps?

g.



--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
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Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Earl Baugh]

From: Swift Griggs 

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, geneb wrote:
> I just wish the Unicomp keys were two-part keys like the Model M uses.
I wish ALL keyboards did that... it's a superior design, IMHO.


I'm puzzled, what do you mean two part?  Cap and key?
That's all I've gotten from Unicomp...  That's how I got all of the "blank"
caps from...

EarltheSquirrel

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Liam Proven]

On 16 June 2016 at 13:25, Peter Corlett  wrote:
> My teetering pile of junk^W Fine Legacy Equipment that requires some TLC
> includes a dead Unicomp Model M where some of the legends have clearly worn
> away. The user admits to putting it through the dishwasher at least twice,
> having apparently decided it was dishwashable because the first time worked.

That'd be Mr Techpractical, then? :-D

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
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RE: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Electronics Plus]

A 7/32" or 5.5mm socket or nutdriver will do the job nicely.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Corlett
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 6:25 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 09:17:01AM -0700, Christopher Satterfield wrote:
> Unicomp keys are still done using dyesub PBT, same as IBMs. Still 
> takes a lot of effort to wear it down, I don't recall ever seeing a 
> board with any wear on the legends.

My teetering pile of junk^W Fine Legacy Equipment that requires some TLC
includes a dead Unicomp Model M where some of the legends have clearly worn
away. The user admits to putting it through the dishwasher at least twice,
having apparently decided it was dishwashable because the first time worked.

Apart from the obvious reason that I just can't be arsed, the main stumbling
block on the repair is the recessed bolts holding it together and me not
having a suitable thin-walled driver to turn them. It's probably a simple
job once I'm actually in.

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Peter Corlett]

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 09:17:01AM -0700, Christopher Satterfield wrote:
> Unicomp keys are still done using dyesub PBT, same as IBMs. Still takes a lot
> of effort to wear it down, I don't recall ever seeing a board with any wear
> on the legends.

My teetering pile of junk^W Fine Legacy Equipment that requires some TLC
includes a dead Unicomp Model M where some of the legends have clearly worn
away. The user admits to putting it through the dishwasher at least twice,
having apparently decided it was dishwashable because the first time worked.

Apart from the obvious reason that I just can't be arsed, the main stumbling
block on the repair is the recessed bolts holding it together and me not having
a suitable thin-walled driver to turn them. It's probably a simple job once I'm
actually in.

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Swift Griggs]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, geneb wrote:
> I just wish the Unicomp keys were two-part keys like the Model M uses.

I wish ALL keyboards did that... it's a superior design, IMHO. 

-Swift

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[geneb]

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, Christopher Satterfield wrote:


Unicomp keys are still done using dyesub PBT, same as IBMs. Still takes a
lot of effort to wear it down, I don't recall ever seeing a board with any
wear on the legends.


I just wish the Unicomp keys were two-part keys like the Model M uses.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[geneb]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:


On 06/01/2016 07:12 AM, geneb wrote:


It's called a "double-shot" key.  There's two injection molds used
for each key.


I recall contacting the people at Unicomp to ask about their keys, and
received the answer that no, they were not double-shot, but
laser-engraved and should be very durable.


Bad memory on my part.  (Funny, it always passes the checksum in the 
morning! :) )


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 06/01/2016 07:12 AM, geneb wrote:

> It's called a "double-shot" key.  There's two injection molds used
> for each key.

I recall contacting the people at Unicomp to ask about their keys, and
received the answer that no, they were not double-shot, but
laser-engraved and should be very durable.

--Chuck

Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Guy Dawson]

On my 1992 IBM Model M most of the key caps are removable but some are not.
Notably, wider keys such as Backspace, Enter and the big + on the numeric
pad don't have removable caps. They're like the Unicomp Wide Keys.


On 1 June 2016 at 14:52, geneb  wrote:

> On Tue, 31 May 2016, Christopher Satterfield wrote:
>
> Unicomp still sells replacement caps (
>> http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe they
>> have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so-hated
>> keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find someone
>> with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free.
>>
>> AFAIK, the key caps that Unicomp sells are the monolithic cap & plunger
> that their keyboards use, not the two-part keys that the real Model M
> keyboards use.  (For those not aware, the Model M key cap is separate from
> the plunger - the key cap is _literally_ just a cap on top of a smaller key
> form that's got the plunger molded in.)
>
> g.
>
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>



-- 
4.4 > 5.4

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[geneb]

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:




On May 31, 2016, at 5:10 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

I used one enough to have worn a visible depression in the space bar
with my right thumb.  I still have a few of the keyboards around.


Another thing I love about the WASD keyboards.  Because the lettering is 
molded all the way through the keycap, I can't wear the letters off. 
I've had a couple of other compact format Cherry keyboards over the 
years that I loved, but I always managed to pound the legend off them 
within a year or so.


It's called a "double-shot" key.  There's two injection molds used for 
each key.


I strongly suggest that you guys check out 
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/index - there's a ton of 
great info there including key vendors.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[geneb]

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Christopher Satterfield wrote:


Unicomp still sells replacement caps (
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe they
have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so-hated
keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find someone
with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free.

AFAIK, the key caps that Unicomp sells are the monolithic cap & plunger 
that their keyboards use, not the two-part keys that the real Model M
keyboards use.  (For those not aware, the Model M key cap is separate from 
the plunger - the key cap is _literally_ just a cap on top of a smaller 
key form that's got the plunger molded in.)


g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[John Willis]

>
>   I only use Model M keyboards.  I have one for my Linux box, one for my
> Mac, and one for the office Mac.  I have about five more sitting in the
> closet of the home office on standby, and I think I have a box of keyboards
> in storage.


I have a couple of Model M boards, and a Unix layout Unicomp clone (with
Ctrl and caps lock in the right positions).

My favorite by far though is the 5150 and XT 83-key. Much heavier, and the
sound and feel are more to my liking, as well as the left side function
keys. I really want to get an XT to PS/2 adapter and one of those boards
(model F, if memory serves), but prices are so high that other expenses
always seem to take precedence.

I was never bothered in the slightest by the small enter key or the need to
use num lock regularly.


-- 
*John P. Willis*
Coherent Logic Development LLC

M: 575.520.9542
O: 575.524.1034

chocolatejolli...@gmail.com
http://www.coherent-logic.com/

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> On May 31, 2016, at 5:38 PM, Pete Turnbull  wrote:
> 
> Yet I had a colleague whose keyboard was made with all-blank caps.  Very 
> interesting when he needed help, or got me to demonstrate a problem - which 
> luckily were very rarely.

My other Cherry keyboard I love is some sort of "gaming" model.  That means 
they print the key legends on the *front* of the keys, not the tops.  I know 
not why.  The tactile feel of it is even better than the WASD (it very closely 
mimics the Courier 3270-clone keyboards), but I just can't use the damn thing 
because my eyes have no point of reference, and I need that even when I touch 
type.  (When I get out of sync, specifically.)

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Pete Turnbull]

On 01/06/2016 01:17, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

Another thing I love about the WASD keyboards.  Because the lettering
is molded all the way through the keycap, I can't wear the letters
off.


Agreed, it's the only way to make them...


I'm not that good of a touch typist that I can work with a blank
keyboard :-P


Yet I had a colleague whose keyboard was made with all-blank caps.  Very 
interesting when he needed help, or got me to demonstrate a problem - 
which luckily were very rarely.


--
Pete

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 05/31/2016 04:31 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

> The only sane modern keyboards are the WASD 'CODE' series.  I have
> the 87 key model:
> 
> http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/code-keyboard/code-87-key-mechanical-keyboard-mx-green.html
>
>  As someone who has spent years pounding on Cybernex XL83, Ann Arbor
> Ambassador, and Courier 3270-clone keyboards, mine feels right at
> home.

One keyboard that I didn't mind using for quite some time was one from
NCR GmhH, for their 286 PC.  Made by Cherry, with F1-F10 down the left
side, where they belong and F11-F32 across the top.   Nice feel, but
lacking "real" F11 and F12 keys--the top row just emits codes for
Ctrl-F1-10 and Alt-F1-10.  Were it not for that, I'd probably still be
using one today.

I used one enough to have worn a visible depression in the space bar
with my right thumb.  I still have a few of the keyboards around.

--Chuck

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

>> 
>> Hehe, I use my Model M mostly with SGI's that have PS/2 ports. So, I'm 
>> right there with you.

The only sane modern keyboards are the WASD 'CODE' series.  I have the 87 key 
model:

  
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/code-keyboard/code-87-key-mechanical-keyboard-mx-green.html

As someone who has spent years pounding on Cybernex XL83, Ann Arbor Ambassador, 
and Courier 3270-clone keyboards, mine feels right at home.

Cherry MX (green) mechanical key switches, LED backlit keycaps, and the best 
part: flip one dip switch and CapsLock is remapped to Control in hardware.  No 
more fscking around with OS-specific configs to undo *that* brain damage :-)

They aren't cheap, and they're worth every penny!

--lyndon

P.S.  I, too, wish I had APL keycaps for mine.  You can get custom keycaps 
made, but they don't have the through-the-keycap backlight.

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Sean Conner]

It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated:
> On Tue, 31 May 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote:
> > > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM
> > > Model M keyboard on their x86 box.  I am.
> > > Windows key?  What Windows key? ;)
> >
> > x86 box?  What x86 box? ;)
> 
> Hehe, I use my Model M mostly with SGI's that have PS/2 ports. So, I'm 
> right there with you. 

  I only use Model M keyboards.  I have one for my Linux box, one for my
Mac, and one for the office Mac.  I have about five more sitting in the
closet of the home office on standby, and I think I have a box of keyboards
in storage.

  The only Model M I'm upset over not getting [1] is the one with the APL
symbols on the keys.

  -spc

[1] I was at a Ham fest about a decade ago and my friend snapped up that
keyboard before I even saw it.  Gr ...

Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Christopher Satterfield wrote:
> Unicomp still sells replacement caps (
> http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe they
> have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so-hated
> keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find someone
> with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free.

One can also 3D print keycaps for Cherry MX switches. There are models out 
there for free. Here's someone doing it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub4cb-u8EWA

-Swift

Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Christopher Satterfield]

Unicomp still sells replacement caps (
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe they
have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so-hated
keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find someone
with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free.

Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Ali]

While on the subject anyone know where one can buy replacement key caps? 
-Ali

Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote:
> 1. The Logitech Orion Spark G910 with Romer-G switches
> 2. The CM Storm Quickfire Pro with MX Blue switches
> 3. The Razer Blackwidow with green switches 

Ahhh, and my anti-keyboard list. These three are supposed to be wonderful. 
I found them not-so-much-wonderful-as-pathetic:

1. 1990's era Dell "QuietKey" keyboards. Neither quiet nor comfortable. 
2. The so-called "Happy Hacker" keyboard. I didn't care for the feel at 
   all. However, they make a Sun version, so bully to them for that!
3. Every rubber dome keyboard ever made == Garbage (IMO). 

Also, there were some late 1990 model HP keyboard (rare and hard to find) 
which were right up there with the Model M but had a lighter weight. I 
remember that one came with a high-end Vectra workstation. I saved one 
from the dump that I used for years. I really liked it's design (it had 
grey keys and a beige body). It had no Windows key and the keyweight was 
amazing. I wish I'd kept it around. The cord got worn out, and I thought 
"Oh well, I have my Model M's." Mistake, really. 

-Swift

Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote:
> > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM
> > Model M keyboard on their x86 box.  I am.
> > Windows key?  What Windows key? ;)
>
> x86 box?  What x86 box? ;)

Hehe, I use my Model M mostly with SGI's that have PS/2 ports. So, I'm 
right there with you. 

I have three model M keyboards, including the M5-2 with colored keys 
intact. I'm a keyboard nut along with a lot of other list members. I would 
echo what others have said about it's heavy key weight vis-a-vis other 
modern high end keyboard such as those based on MX blue switches. It's a 
little on the "pounding" side which will actually slow you down if you are 
a touch typist. However, the positive feedback from the buckling spring 
design can make you faster (because you become sensitive to the tiny 
'click' and thus release quickly after that feedback).

As far as a PS/2 keyboard they are extremely well built gear. However, 
these days the Model M is no longer my favorite. The Cherry MX blue 
switches are superior, IMHO. The main reason being their lower resistance. 
However, the key caps can also make a big difference. Low weight keys 
pitched at the wrong angle will still be hard to push, for example. 

I won't list out the embarrassing number of keyboards I've owned. However, 
just for posterity my favorites are:

1. The Logitech Orion Spark G910 with Romer-G switches
2. The CM Storm Quickfire Pro with MX Blue switches
3. The Razer Blackwidow with green switches 

Here's why:

1. It's not the bling/colors, it's the switches. My only complaint is that 
the keys are slightly more scalloped than I'd like. Other than that, it's 
a pretty awesome (USB only) keyboard. 

2. This is the best Cherry-based keyboard I've encountered. There is some 
kind of wonderful substance on the keys that makes them continually tacky. 
For whatever reason, the key weight feels slightly lighter than other MX 
blue based rigs. I feel that anything beyond the MX blue keywieght is "way 
too much". This keyboard nails it. 

3. Their new model with "green" switches is outrageously light. I can type 
faster on this keyboard than any other I've tried. However, it requires a 
bit more care than the Orion, for example. 

-Swift