Re: Lisa Source Code

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/9/21 6:05 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> Linked lists go back a long way.  FAT is one, in a sense.  DECtape file 
> systems for DOS (also RSTS) are linked, in the blocks.  The same goes for the 
> CDC 6000 file system (more precisely, it has contiguous blocks within a 
> track, and links from the last block in the track to the next track number).
> 
>   paul
> 
>> On Apr 9, 2021, at 12:27 AM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I believe the original Amiga file system also used a linked-list approach. 
>> That way you could, theoretically, reconstruct a file from any one of it’s 
>> data blocks.
>> Richard


The point with the WORM drive setup I described, is that one may recover
*every* file ever written, however the name and attributes of the file
may not be recoverable, being stored in the tree, which may not be
readable.   That is, the linked list may be intact, but the tree not so
or vice-versa.  The advantage is that searching for a given file is
faster using a tree than it would be traversing a list.

Reading old papers on the subject, it seems that old optical
phase-change storage, while permanent may not have been absolutely reliable.

I should also mention that although the WORM discs do store quite a bit
of data (in my case 470MB per side), they're not very fast.  More
floppy-disk speed than hard disk.

--Chuck

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

Linked lists go back a long way.  FAT is one, in a sense.  DECtape file systems 
for DOS (also RSTS) are linked, in the blocks.  The same goes for the CDC 6000 
file system (more precisely, it has contiguous blocks within a track, and links 
from the last block in the track to the next track number).

paul

> On Apr 9, 2021, at 12:27 AM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> I believe the original Amiga file system also used a linked-list approach. 
> That way you could, theoretically, reconstruct a file from any one of it’s 
> data blocks.
> Richard
> 
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> 

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Richard Sheppard via cctalk]

I believe the original Amiga file system also used a linked-list approach. That 
way you could, theoretically, reconstruct a file from any one of it’s data 
blocks.
Richard

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/8/21 12:43 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> At 02:27 PM 4/8/2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> By the way, does anyone know the structure of an ".ITI" file
> 
> The context is a WORM file system, or a particular OS, or an app environment?
> 

Files extracted from a WORM file system; OS not relevant according to
documentation that I have (same product offered for several different
platforms).  App appears to be some sort of document archiving system.

Said files contain no recognizable cleartext.

Ring any bells?

--Chuck

Re: Lisa Source Code

[John Foust via cctalk]

At 02:27 PM 4/8/2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>By the way, does anyone know the structure of an ".ITI" file

The context is a WORM file system, or a particular OS, or an app environment?

- John

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/8/21 11:38 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:

> But (afaict) a sector that has never been written is just that:
> unwritten. How does it convey any information (other than "I'm still
> blank")?

Let me try...

Because you can't rewrite or update tables without copying them, a WORM
file system that can be updated dynamically has to resort to lists of
previous versions of the tables.  So to find the most recent copy of any
list, you read through the list until one of two things happens:  You
hit an unwritten sector, which means that the last thing read
successfully is what you're after, or the preallocated list area is
completely full, in which case the list continues in another
preallocated area or is at the absolute end, depending on the
implementation.

In the WORM file system that I'm currently working in, the
implementation is a mixture of both.   There are fixed preallocated
areas for directory information, but there are also lists of file data
areas written that can overflow to other preallocated areas.

Overflow of the directory is handled with a tree structure, so it's
pretty much the same thing as a linked list in a practical sense.

I assume that it was done that way so that a bad (error) sector wouldn't
upset the whole apple cart.

By the way, does anyone know the structure of an ".ITI" file?

--Chuck

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 08/04/2021 17:29, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 4/8/21 8:40 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

On Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 09:34 Chuck Guzis mailto:ccl...@sydex.com>> wrote:

 There's a big difference--in a WORM, unwritten sectors *mean* something.


For archival purposes, in what way does an unwritten sector on a WORM
mean more than an unwritten sector (with no data field present) of a
floppy? Neither can be accurately archived without representing the fact
that it is unwritten.

Simple--a WORM contains the entire history of information on the disc;
nothing is ever lost.  A floppy can have data overwritten--and probably
does (e.g. directories and allocation maps)  The only way to update a
WORM is to add to it.

I must be missing something. I understood (for WORM) "unwritten" to mean 
"never written" rather than "written but its address is no longer in the 
FS catalogue".


So with WORM (whether DEC RVxx style optical disk or CD/DVD-RW in 
certain modes) you can (if the firmware allows) read sectors that 
contain stale data.


But (afaict) a sector that has never been written is just that: 
unwritten. How does it convey any information (other than "I'm still 
blank")?



Antonio


--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/8/21 8:40 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2021, 09:34 Chuck Guzis  > wrote:
> 
> There's a big difference--in a WORM, unwritten sectors *mean* something.
> 
> 
> For archival purposes, in what way does an unwritten sector on a WORM
> mean more than an unwritten sector (with no data field present) of a
> floppy? Neither can be accurately archived without representing the fact
> that it is unwritten.

Simple--a WORM contains the entire history of information on the disc;
nothing is ever lost.  A floppy can have data overwritten--and probably
does (e.g. directories and allocation maps)  The only way to update a
WORM is to add to it.

--Chuck

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/8/21 12:23 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 2:33 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
> mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> 
> Okay, I've got a WORM disc here--how do they propose to archive that?
> (recall that unwritten sectors can't be read).

There's a big difference--in a WORM, unwritten sectors *mean* something.
  Recall that you can't ever re-write or erase data.   The read/write
filesystems are "interesting" and use the presence or absence of data as
part of the picture.

Just unraveled one such filesystem--it's interesting.  You never lose
information.

Consider that, on a sector basis, there are three possibilities for the
value of a bit.


--Chuck

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 2:33 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
wrote:

> Okay, I've got a WORM disc here--how do they propose to archive that?
> (recall that unwritten sectors can't be read).
>

Same for Apple DOS 3.1, 3.2, and 3.2.1 (13-sector format). The formatter
only writes the address fields, but no data fields. Apple fixed that (if
you consider it a defect) in the 16-sector format (DOS 3.3, Pascal, SOS,
ProDOS, GS/OS).

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/7/21 12:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/7/21 12:06 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> What is it?
> 
> name changed
> 
> https://github.com/aaru-dps/Aaru


Amazing.   At least two of their image formats were originated by yours
truly--and I was never contacted to confirm details.

Okay, I've got a WORM disc here--how do they propose to archive that?
(recall that unwritten sectors can't be read).

--Chuck

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 4/7/21 12:06 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:


What is it?


name changed

https://github.com/aaru-dps/Aaru

Re: Lisa Source Code

[John Foust via cctalk]

At 08:52 PM 4/6/2021, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote:
> I converted them to Unix end of line conventions and spaces for
>Pascal tabs after recovering the files using Disk Image Chef, 

OK I'll bite.  Googling for quote Disk Image Chef doesn't
turn up much beyond this press release (which is all over
the web in many languages.)

What is it?

- John

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Lyle Bickley via cctalk]

Al is right. AFAIK, the CHM has never made an official announcement regarding
the release of the LISA OS. Perhaps the confusion comes from this email from
Al to the LisaList:
--
Al Kossow
Dec 24, 2017, 7:49:23 AM
to lisa...@googlegroups.com

Just wanted to let everyone know the sources to the OS and applications were
recovered, I converted them to Unix end of line conventions and spaces for
Pascal tabs after recovering the files using Disk Image Chef, and they are
with Apple for review. After that's done, CHM will do an @CHM blog post about
the historical significance of the software and the code that is cleared for
release by Apple will be made available in 2018. The only thing I saw that
probably won't be able to be released is the American Heritage dictionary for
the spell checker in LisaWrite
--

I have no idea of "why" by this date the CHM hasn't released the code. Al
probably has a better handle on that than anyone. But be aware that the CHM can
be somewhat "opaque" at times, with no evil intended.

(I can say that, I'm one of the "Founding Members" of the CHM ;)

Cheers,
Lyle




On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:28:45 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk  wrote:

> On 4/6/21 5:14 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote:
> > So what happened to cancel the release?   
> 
> It hasn't been canceled, it just hasn't occurred.
> Also, there was never an official announcement about this from CHM.
> 



-- 
73   NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West
https://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

Re: Lisa Source Code

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

who  is  holing  it   from  release  at this point  apple or CHM.Ed# In 
a message dated 4/6/2021 5:28:55 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: 

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 4/6/21 5:14 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote:
So what happened to cancel the release? 


It hasn't been canceled, it just hasn't occurred.
Also, there was never an official announcement about this from CHM.

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Michael Kerpan via cctalk]

So what happened to cancel the release? Did Apple get cold feet and
withdraw permission? Was there simply more work and less time than expected?

Mike

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021, 2:45 PM Al Kossow via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 4/6/21 11:00 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote:
> > Anyone know if this actually happened?
>
> It has not
>

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 4/6/21 11:00 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote:

Anyone know if this actually happened?


It has not

Lisa Source Code

[John Many Jars via cctalk]

I keep finding articles about how The Computer History Museum will (note
tense) release the Apple Lisa OS (office system) source code in 2018.

I can't find any evidence that this actually happened.  As a former Pascal
programmer, it would be fascinating.  Anyone know if this actually happened?

Thanks,

Mark (aka John)

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Daniel Seagraves via cctalk]

> On Dec 28, 2017, at 3:23 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk 
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> What is a "Lisa Source Code" ?
> The schematics? The source code for the Lisa firmware and/or Lisa OS?

Whatever it is, it won’t be enough, someone will throw a fit about something 
being there or not there.

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Sam O'nella via cctalk]

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/lisalist/aIo6cNu54xM/_Ck_CsmSBgAJ
They may still be getting approvals, but here is the announcement implying both 
OS and some applications may be included.
 Original message From: Christian Corti via cctalk 
<cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: 12/28/17  3:23 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: "General 
Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: 
Lisa Source Code 
What is a "Lisa Source Code" ?
The schematics? The source code for the Lisa firmware and/or Lisa OS?

Christian

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Sam O'nella via cctalk]

Saw the announcement via slashdot also the other day.  Definitely a kudos to 
the CHM team!
null

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

What is a "Lisa Source Code" ?
The schematics? The source code for the Lisa firmware and/or Lisa OS?

Christian

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

That is really awesome. Not being deep into the Lisa platform, 
I wonder if the sources to the Toolbox ROM (or equivalent) was also recovered 
and how different the sources are to those already out there for the original 
Mac. 



Get Outlook for iOS





On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 8:24 PM -0500, "Toby Thain via cctalk" 
<cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:










On 2017-12-27 8:21 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote:
> pretty  neat... what   format material was it stored  on!?
> Ed# 
>  

Reliably informed it was stone tablets .. took several Top Men quite a
few years to figure out the carved alphabet though

--T



>  
> In a message dated 12/27/2017 6:03:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
> cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I don’t know if I missed the announcement on this list  but I just saw this 
>  article:
> https://9to5mac.com/2017/12/27/apple-lisa-source-code-to-be-released/
> 
> It  features quotes from our own Al Kassow.  ;-)  Way to go  Al!!!
> 
> TTFN - Guy
> 
> 

Re: Lisa Source Code

[Ed via cctalk]

pretty  neat... what   format material was it stored  on!?
Ed# 
 
 
In a message dated 12/27/2017 6:03:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

Hi,

I don’t know if I missed the announcement on this list  but I just saw this 
 article:
https://9to5mac.com/2017/12/27/apple-lisa-source-code-to-be-released/

It  features quotes from our own Al Kassow.  ;-)  Way to go  Al!!!

TTFN - Guy

Lisa Source Code

[Guy Sotomayor via cctalk]

Hi,

I don’t know if I missed the announcement on this list but I just saw this 
article:
https://9to5mac.com/2017/12/27/apple-lisa-source-code-to-be-released/

It features quotes from our own Al Kassow.  ;-)  Way to go Al!!!

TTFN - Guy