VMS on x86-64/ARM/RISC-V? - was Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
On 11/14/20, 1:49 AM, "cctech on behalf of Adam Thornton via cctech" wrote: >I mean obviously the NEXT thing to do is start bugging VSI for ARM > support—given that the OS runs on VAX, Alpha, Itanic, and x86_64, how much > really crucial and hard-to-port assembly can be left in it?—and given the way > datacenters are trending, it might not even be a commercially stupid move. I > want to run VMS on my phone (or my next Mac). Doesn’t everyone? Hi Adam, Possible architectures beyond x86 we're keeping an eye on are ARM and RISC-V, but they'll need to start doing a lot better in the datacenter before it'll be worth our while. So far, ARM in the datacenter hasn't taken off the way many predicted it would. One thing I'm better at than crystal ball gazing though, is I can give you an idea of how much hard-to-port assembly is left, since I wrote most of the x86 assembly code in it :-) With the port to x86, we made a conscious effort to minimize the amount of code written in assembly; so at this point, it's pretty much limited to code where (a) we can't use the stack, or we need to manipulate the stack pointer in a non-standard way; (b) we need to use a special instruction that we don't have a compiler builtin for (these are mostly cases where an instruction is only used in one place); and (c) code that needs to mix calling standards - i.e. the code shims necessary to interact with the UEFI firmeware. Category (a) is obviously the more interesting one, and that includes things like code that is responsible for switching between VMS' four modes (kernel, executive, supervisor, and user mode), and context switching for the schedulers (OS scheduler, kernel process scheduler, and POSIX threads scheduler). The OS scheduler is a good example of our effort to eliminate assembly code. On VAX, Alpha, and Itanium, the scheduler loop and the idle loop (which performs maintenance tasks such as dirty page zeroing) were written in assembly, and re-written with each port. For x86, I rewrote these in C, using small assembly helper routines only in the critical parts where it couldn't be avoided. In total, there are 30 modules that were written in x86-64 assembly. I'd classify 10 of those are trivial, 16 as average, and 4 as complicated and difficult. The complicated and difficult category contains code responsible for dispatching system services, handling interrupts and exceptions, delivering ASTs. As much design and work was involved in those assembly modules though, a whole lot of x86-specific work was done for the MACRO-32 compiler. MACRO-32 originated as the VAX assembler, and while it is a compiler on other architectures, it is still much like an assembler, and specific translations from the VAX instruction set to the target architecture need to be made. The MACRO-32 compiler talks to the LLVM code generator backend at a lower, more instruction-centric level than the compilers for higher languages, and this work is very x86-64 specific. Given that about 1/3 of the OS is written in MACRO-32, we won't get rid of MACRO-32 code in the OS any time soon. (The other 2/3rds are written in BLISS and C) Also, in the C, Bliss, and MACRO-32 code, lots of conditionalizations are made on architecture. Certain things are done differently on Alpha than they are on Itanium, and on x86 we sometimes do things the way we did them on Alpha, sometimes the way we did them on Itanium, and sometimes we need to come up with an x86-specific way. So, the port to x86 has made a future port to ARM or RISC-V easier; particularly by moving to the LLVM code generator backend, and by figuring out how to run a four-mode OS on a two-mode architecture without sacrificing the benefits of running in four modes; but it has by no means made it trivial. Camiel
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
I for one was thrilled to see that there will be x86_64 hobbyist licenses for VMS. I have an emulated VAX on a Raspberry Pi (I don’t know if my 11/730 works, but I doubt it—it’s nowhere near a 220V power supply and it’s not been much of a priority, and I have a VAXStation 3100 that doesn’t pass POST even with a freshly-burned ROM) running OpenVMS 7.3, and a real AlphaServer 800 running 8.4. I mean obviously the NEXT thing to do is start bugging VSI for ARM support—given that the OS runs on VAX, Alpha, Itanic, and x86_64, how much really crucial and hard-to-port assembly can be left in it?—and given the way datacenters are trending, it might not even be a commercially stupid move. I want to run VMS on my phone (or my next Mac). Doesn’t everyone? Adam
Re: VMS on x86-64/ARM/RISC-V? - was Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
On 11/14/20, 11:54 PM, "cctech on behalf of Adam Thornton via cctech" wrote: > On Nov 14, 2020, at 5:20 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > ... > > One thing I'm better at than crystal ball gazing though, is I can give you an idea of how much hard-to-port assembly is left, since I wrote most of the x86 assembly code in it :-) I replied to Camiel off-list, but I just did want to say to the list in general how great it made me feel that my idle BSing got a thoughtful reply from someone who is in a—indeed, in *the*—position to know about it. I mean, I realize I shouldn’t be surprised that VSI has a presence on here, but…I was! Well, I’m not on cctech because I’m with VSI, I’m on cctech because I have a large collection of vintage computers (www.vaxbarn.com). In a sense, you could say that my being with VSI is an indirect result of being a computer collector. I had a few Alpha systems, wanted to develop software for them on my laptop, decided to write my own emulator (ES40 Emulator, also forked as AXPbox), got to know people in VMS engineering as a result, and eventually ended up getting hired as one of the principal architects for the x86-64 port. I have a few OpenVMS related presentations up on Youtube, one of them is specifically about the 4-mode problem (https://youtu.be/U8kcfvJ1Iec). I also have several vintage computer related videos on there (Reviving 1980's supercomputers at home - https://youtu.be/0uM09vxT1rg - is a nice introduction into the kind of things I'm really interested in.) Camiel
Re: VMS on x86-64/ARM/RISC-V? - was Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
> On Nov 14, 2020, at 5:20 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven > wrote: > ... > > One thing I'm better at than crystal ball gazing though, is I can give you an > idea of how much hard-to-port assembly is left, since I wrote most of the x86 > assembly code in it :-) I replied to Camiel off-list, but I just did want to say to the list in general how great it made me feel that my idle BSing got a thoughtful reply from someone who is in a—indeed, in *the*—position to know about it. I mean, I realize I shouldn’t be surprised that VSI has a presence on here, but…I was! This is one of the things I love about this place. Wanted to make sure my gratitude was heard. Adam
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
Zane Healy wrote: >> On Nov 12, 2020, at 10:39 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> There's something icky about VMS running on x86. I can't see the prospect >> being attractive to either the VMS people or the x86 people. > > Do you have any valid data to base that statement on? > None whatsoever, only my own observations and opinions. > > Quite a few people on the x86 side that I’ve talked to are interested > by the prospect, and from what I’ve seen, it’s being well received on > the VMS side. I know of one company that is interested in seeing if they > should add support in their product for it. > Over the years, I've seen all sorts of people enthusing about how great they think VMS would be, if only it: - could use commodity SCSI disks - could be orders of magnitude faster - could do networking with this, that or the other - could be more compatible with Unix - could be more compatible with Windows - could have a goofy graphical user interface - could have native support for flavour of the month programming language x - could support comodity ISA/EISA/PCI/USB/whatever flavour of the month I/O - could be run on commodity hardware used for other operating systems - could be used for free by students and hobbyists - etc All of these things and more were delivered in spades or were there from the beginning and yet it never seems to be enough. Some people are just never satisfied, not to mention it never seems to dawn on them just how useful VMS clustering is compared to anything else they have seen. > > Mark Daniel already has WASD up and running on OpenVMS/x86. > I don't want to belittle Mark's achievement here but if this x86 port is going to be in any way worthwhile, it shouldn't be a big deal to build a well behaved, long established VMS application on it. > > There have already been 6 customer releases of the x86 version, with a 7th > due in about a month, in fact the V9.0-F release looks to be pretty > significant > (I believe it’s where cluster support will start showing up). > It doesn't even have cluster support yet??? > > The problem with the x86 port is when you have software that only runs on > older versions or architectures. This is also a big problem for the > Itanium port. For example I keep a system running VAX/VMS 5.5-2 for just > this reason, and there is a ton of software that is VAX only, or at best > Alpha only. > I've had plenty of success doing binary translation of VAX software to Alpha when source was not available. I never had any interest in the Itanium platform so I don't know if the same could be done there. > > One thing that is interesting about the x86 version is that people will be > able to easily get their feet wet with a modern version of the OS. > Why can't people do that now using Alpha emulation running on their platform of choice? > > I’m anxiously awaiting VMware and Hobbyist support. > If VMware was worth it's salt, it would be transparent to whatever is running under it, not needing specific support in whatever is running under it. > > Anything that makes it easier to get OpenVMS into the hands of hobbyists > and students is a good thing. > I've been hearing that for 30 years or more and VMS doesn't seem to have taken over the world yet. Regards, Peter Coghlan > > Zane >
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
On Nov 12, 2020, at 10:39 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > There's something icky about VMS running on x86. I can't see the prospect > being attractive to either the VMS people or the x86 people. Do you have any valid data to base that statement on? Quite a few people on the x86 side that I’ve talked to are interested by the prospect, and from what I’ve seen, it’s being well received on the VMS side. I know of one company that is interested in seeing if they should add support in their product for it. Mark Daniel already has WASD up and running on OpenVMS/x86. There have already been 6 customer releases of the x86 version, with a 7th due in about a month, in fact the V9.0-F release looks to be pretty significant (I believe it’s where cluster support will start showing up). The problem with the x86 port is when you have software that only runs on older versions or architectures. This is also a big problem for the Itanium port. For example I keep a system running VAX/VMS 5.5-2 for just this reason, and there is a ton of software that is VAX only, or at best Alpha only. One thing that is interesting about the x86 version is that people will be able to easily get their feet wet with a modern version of the OS. I’m anxiously awaiting VMware and Hobbyist support. Anything that makes it easier to get OpenVMS into the hands of hobbyists and students is a good thing. Zane
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
Bill Gunshannon wrote: On 11/12/20 12:45 PM, Zane Healy wrote: On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:42 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote: Hopefully with the move to x86, we’ll see more people interested in OpenVMS. Personally, I doubt that. There's something icky about VMS running on x86. I can't see the prospect being attractive to either the VMS people or the x86 people. As another aside, it is rather interesting how many hits for VAX and VMS I got that have nothing to do with what we think of as VAX and VMS. Vacuum cleaners and virtual machines? And Virtual Messaging Systems and Volunteer Management System and Vendor Management System and Video Management Software, etc. etc. etc. How could you forget to mention the Voluntary Milking System? Regards, Peter Coghlan. bill
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
On 11/12/20 12:45 PM, Zane Healy wrote: On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:42 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote: FREEWARE60/VMSFAQ Item 5.5.1 As an interesting aside, I was very surprised at how hard it was to find this on the Web. The notion that everything on the Internet is preserved for posterity is really becoming silly. Up until 3 or so years ago, I took a break from running OpenVMS at home (and only did the tiniest amount of VAX/VMS at work). Between work, kids, and photography, I just didn’t have time (technically I still don’t, but I’m back to running a cluster, and one other VAX at home). When I got my main system back up, I was surprised how hard it is to find anything VMS related on the Internet. I still don’t have a good idea as to what Archives of software are still available (stuff like the site for DECwindows Freeware). Hopefully with the move to x86, we’ll see more people interested in OpenVMS. Personally, I doubt that. As another aside, it is rather interesting how many hits for VAX and VMS I got that have nothing to do with what we think of as VAX and VMS. Vacuum cleaners and virtual machines? And Virtual Messaging Systems and Volunteer Management System and Vendor Management System and Video Management Software, etc. etc. etc. bill
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
On 2020-11-12 12:45, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Hopefully with the move to x86, we’ll see more people interested in OpenVMS. Then, the people will ask for an ARM port, before they touch it ;-)
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:42 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > FREEWARE60/VMSFAQ Item 5.5.1 > > As an interesting aside, I was very surprised at how hard it was > to find this on the Web. The notion that everything on the Internet > is preserved for posterity is really becoming silly. Up until 3 or so years ago, I took a break from running OpenVMS at home (and only did the tiniest amount of VAX/VMS at work). Between work, kids, and photography, I just didn’t have time (technically I still don’t, but I’m back to running a cluster, and one other VAX at home). When I got my main system back up, I was surprised how hard it is to find anything VMS related on the Internet. I still don’t have a good idea as to what Archives of software are still available (stuff like the site for DECwindows Freeware). Hopefully with the move to x86, we’ll see more people interested in OpenVMS. > As another aside, it is rather interesting how many hits for VAX and > VMS I got that have nothing to do with what we think of as VAX and VMS. Vacuum cleaners and virtual machines? Zane
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
On 2020-11-12 10:42, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > As another aside, it is rather interesting how many hits for VAX and > VMS I got that have nothing to do with what we think of as VAX and VMS. And most of them suck ;-)
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
On 12/11/2020 15:42, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: FREEWARE60/VMSFAQ Item 5.5.1 As an interesting aside, I was very surprised at how hard it was to find this on the Web. The notion that everything on the Internet is preserved for posterity is really becoming silly. Here's Steve Lionel quoting that particular section: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.vms/c/LtpI1ItxcbM. The FAQ is here: https://www.hoffmanlabs.com/vmsfaq/vmsfaq.html but I think that comes and goes (although archive.org has a copy). Unsurprisingly, I can't find a copy on the HP web site! Antonio -- Antonio Carlini anto...@acarlini.com
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
On 11/12/20 10:02 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: On 12/11/2020 13:56, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: I have a copy of the process in my stash it is findable on the web. I used to wear this funny hat, and used the methoo a few times - even on my cluster at home. It does work. bb On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 8:13 AM Richard Curtis via cctalk wrote: I beg to differ with HP's recommendation (in their doc set) for Devin'ssituation. HP's description is meant for customer sites to have a copyof usernames/passwords to which they can revert for nasty situationssuch as a corrupted SYSUAF.DAT. *If* this system has the 'alternate'file, it should have the same problem as the original, of unknownpasswords. What Devin needs is instructions to break into the system. I happen to know how to do that (used to work in OpenVMS Engineering).Is that something that should be discussed here? Thanks,Dick "breaking in if you have physical console access" is not at all secret: it used to be in the OpenVMS FAQ and (iirc) in the manuals. It's fine to discuss it anywhere. VMS Engineering would have told you to make sure you ensured that physical console access was only available to authorised personnel. Antonio FREEWARE60/VMSFAQ Item 5.5.1 As an interesting aside, I was very surprised at how hard it was to find this on the Web. The notion that everything on the Internet is preserved for posterity is really becoming silly. As another aside, it is rather interesting how many hits for VAX and VMS I got that have nothing to do with what we think of as VAX and VMS. bill
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
On 12/11/2020 13:56, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: I have a copy of the process in my stash it is findable on the web. I used to wear this funny hat, and used the methoo a few times - even on my cluster at home. It does work. bb On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 8:13 AM Richard Curtis via cctalk wrote: I beg to differ with HP's recommendation (in their doc set) for Devin'ssituation. HP's description is meant for customer sites to have a copyof usernames/passwords to which they can revert for nasty situationssuch as a corrupted SYSUAF.DAT. *If* this system has the 'alternate'file, it should have the same problem as the original, of unknownpasswords. What Devin needs is instructions to break into the system. I happen to know how to do that (used to work in OpenVMS Engineering).Is that something that should be discussed here? Thanks,Dick "breaking in if you have physical console access" is not at all secret: it used to be in the OpenVMS FAQ and (iirc) in the manuals. It's fine to discuss it anywhere. VMS Engineering would have told you to make sure you ensured that physical console access was only available to authorised personnel. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini anto...@acarlini.com
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
On 11/12/20 8:12 AM, Richard Curtis via cctalk wrote: > I picked up a microvax 3100 this past weekend from a office that was shutting down. I was able to start the system up, it boots up to a login prompt for VMS VAX 7.3. I do not have any login info for this machine, is there a procedure i can follow to reset a password to an account? I beg to differ with HP's recommendation (in their doc set) for Devin'ssituation. HP's description is meant for customer sites to have a copyof usernames/passwords to which they can revert for nasty situationssuch as a corrupted SYSUAF.DAT. *If* this system has the 'alternate'file, it should have the same problem as the original, of unknownpasswords. What Devin needs is instructions to break into the system. I happen to know how to do that (used to work in OpenVMS Engineering).Is that something that should be discussed here? Thanks,Dick I thought it was in the FAQ. bill
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
On Nov 12, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Richard Curtis via cctalk wrote: >> What Devin needs is instructions to break into the system. > I happen to know how to do that (used to work in OpenVMS Engineering).Is that > something that should be discussed here? > Thanks,Dick This has been in the FAQ for a very long time. As it requires physical access to the system, I’m not sure it’s ever been considered that big of a deal. Zane
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
I have a copy of the process in my stash it is findable on the web. I used to wear this funny hat, and used the methoo a few times - even on my cluster at home. It does work. bb On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 8:13 AM Richard Curtis via cctalk wrote: > > > I picked up a microvax 3100 this past weekend from a office that was > > shutting down. > >> I was able to start the system up, it boots up to a login prompt for VMS > > VAX 7.3. > >> I do not have any login info for this machine, is there a procedure i can > > follow to reset a password to an account? > > I beg to differ with HP's recommendation (in their doc set) for > Devin'ssituation. HP's description is meant for customer sites to have a > copyof usernames/passwords to which they can revert for nasty situationssuch > as a corrupted SYSUAF.DAT. *If* this system has the 'alternate'file, it > should have the same problem as the original, of unknownpasswords. What > Devin needs is instructions to break into the system. > I happen to know how to do that (used to work in OpenVMS Engineering).Is that > something that should be discussed here? > Thanks,Dick >
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset
> I picked up a microvax 3100 this past weekend from a office that was > shutting down. >> I was able to start the system up, it boots up to a login prompt for VMS > VAX 7.3. >> I do not have any login info for this machine, is there a procedure i can > follow to reset a password to an account? I beg to differ with HP's recommendation (in their doc set) for Devin'ssituation. HP's description is meant for customer sites to have a copyof usernames/passwords to which they can revert for nasty situationssuch as a corrupted SYSUAF.DAT. *If* this system has the 'alternate'file, it should have the same problem as the original, of unknownpasswords. What Devin needs is instructions to break into the system. I happen to know how to do that (used to work in OpenVMS Engineering).Is that something that should be discussed here? Thanks,Dick
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset.
> On Nov 11, 2020, at 8:44 AM, Kevin Lee via cctalk > wrote: > > Where are you living you can find such nice kit please ? No kidding, I’m doing my best not to add to my Classic Computer collection, and I’d add a system like that in a heart-beat (I’ve actually thought seriously about getting one like that). > Indeed. Backing that up is definitely a good idea. I’m reminded of a MicroVAX III that I got 20+ years ago, I booted it, found it was running VAX/VMS 4.4. Powered down, hooked up a TK50 drive to back it up, and the drive wouldn’t come back up (RD53). Zane
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset.
Where are you living you can find such nice kit please ? On Nov 11, 2020 4:06 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: On 11/11/2020 14:17, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > And as HP are no longer issuing hobbyist licences you might want to export > the licence data base > Indeed. Backing that up is definitely a good idea. Also worth noting that this is a uVAX 3100-96, which is a nice catch. Over 30 VUPs (compared to 2.4 VUPs for the original uVAX 3100). No issues (afaik) with OpenVMS booting off disks greater than 1GB and it will take up to 128MB of memory. Nice and clean too (as is the VT520). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini anto...@acarlini.com
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset.
On 11/11/2020 14:17, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: And as HP are no longer issuing hobbyist licences you might want to export the licence data base Indeed. Backing that up is definitely a good idea. Also worth noting that this is a uVAX 3100-96, which is a nice catch. Over 30 VUPs (compared to 2.4 VUPs for the original uVAX 3100). No issues (afaik) with OpenVMS booting off disks greater than 1GB and it will take up to 128MB of memory. Nice and clean too (as is the VT520). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini anto...@acarlini.com
RE: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset.
And as HP are no longer issuing hobbyist licences you might want to export the licence data base Dave > -Original Message- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Nigel Johnson > via cctalk > Sent: 11 November 2020 14:15 > To: devin davison via cctalk > Subject: Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset. > > Try this: > > http://h30266.www3.hpe.com/odl/vax/opsys/vmsos73/vmsos73/6017/6017 > pro_009.html#emerg_startup_uaf > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the > origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.john...@ieee.org > > > > On 2020-11-11 9:11 a.m., devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > I picked up a microvax 3100 this past weekend from a office that was > > shutting down. > > > > I was able to start the system up, it boots up to a login prompt for > > VMS VAX 7.3. > > > > I do not have any login info for this machine, is there a procedure i > > can follow to reset a password to an account? > > > > > > > > Image of system : > > > > https://i.postimg.cc/43bG0nSx/2020-090018.jpg
Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset.
Try this: http://h30266.www3.hpe.com/odl/vax/opsys/vmsos73/vmsos73/6017/6017pro_009.html#emerg_startup_uaf Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.john...@ieee.org On 2020-11-11 9:11 a.m., devin davison via cctalk wrote: > I picked up a microvax 3100 this past weekend from a office that was > shutting down. > > I was able to start the system up, it boots up to a login prompt for VMS > VAX 7.3. > > I do not have any login info for this machine, is there a procedure i can > follow to reset a password to an account? > > > > Image of system : > > https://i.postimg.cc/43bG0nSx/2020-090018.jpg
Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset.
I picked up a microvax 3100 this past weekend from a office that was shutting down. I was able to start the system up, it boots up to a login prompt for VMS VAX 7.3. I do not have any login info for this machine, is there a procedure i can follow to reset a password to an account? Image of system : https://i.postimg.cc/43bG0nSx/2020-090018.jpg
