Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

2018-12-22 Thread Bob Smith via cctalk
when the multi rack PDP11/20 (on the switch panel) was being assembled
for delivery to Aeroflote, circa 1971 or 2 iirc, the unit did not have
a working power fail recovery capability.  The machine was then
referred to as an 11/15. At that time, the PDP11 was considered a
controlled technolgy item, and there were some guys present for the
testing in the mill on 1-2.  Anyone familiar with 1=2 at that time,
knows the floors did shift with heavy loads. This caused said computer
to suffer power failures as the racks shifted, bus cables shifted and
the machine would crash. after about the 15th crash, no pun intended,
the delivery to Aeroflot was approved.  A couple of years later, the
Ryad version of the 11 was delivered to a shop, and found to be an
exact duplicate of the delivered 11. it dd not have power fail
capability.
bob

On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 7:05 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 3:50 AM David C. Jenner via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org wrote:
>
> > Are you sure the referenced early PDP-11/10 wasn't really the PDP-11/15?
> >   We got an 11/15 because it was cheaper and DEC had one sitting around
> > that we could get with end of year left over budget funds.
> >
>
> Yes.  The "11/15" did not exist in 1969 early 1970 documents from DEC and
> articles, including the original product brochure and pricelist:
>
> https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593
>
> Bill


Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

2018-12-22 Thread Bill Degnan via cctalk
On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 3:50 AM David C. Jenner via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org wrote:

> Are you sure the referenced early PDP-11/10 wasn't really the PDP-11/15?
>   We got an 11/15 because it was cheaper and DEC had one sitting around
> that we could get with end of year left over budget funds.
>

Yes.  The "11/15" did not exist in 1969 early 1970 documents from DEC and
articles, including the original product brochure and pricelist:

https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593

Bill


Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

2018-12-22 Thread David C. Jenner via cctalk
Are you sure the referenced early PDP-11/10 wasn't really the PDP-11/15? 
 We got an 11/15 because it was cheaper and DEC had one sitting around 
that we could get with end of year left over budget funds.


On 12/21/18 2:00 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:47 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk 
wrote:


On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:




On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk <

cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:






My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal
'model'
for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all

the

other -8's.




The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers

did

not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called

PDP

11/10 and PDP 11/20.  These are just as legitimate and well defined as

the

11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one

fact of

the front plate.  The fact that the name does not appear on the front

panel

has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid.  Read the first
brochure, don't take my word for it.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593

Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20

and

11/10 existed from day one.  The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10
model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the
original 11/10 model.

Bill


Wow.

Did that V1 11/10 ever ship?  Do any still exist?

I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory.  What technology is that

memory?  At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be
pretty expensive (due to the labor involved).


   paul




It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and
pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by
the latter 11/10 variant by 1972.

Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near
as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?)
that they just dropped it.  Or maybe a marketing / design team
communication misstep.

The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to
the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns
(same as the RAM core).  It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256
words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20.

The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every
1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle
times).

As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those
who ordered 11/10's).



When you consider the differences between the 11/35 and 11/40 were simply
option choices and the later 11/10 11/05, I can see no reason why the
"original 11/10 11/20 is any different other than the front plate being
"PDP-11" for the later pairing.  I am unaware of any 11/10's still around
but I am also unaware of any Rolm 1601's that still exist, does not mean it
was not a real Ruggednova model.  etc.

Basically it's being inconsistent to not acknowledge the original 11/10.

We could say that the PDP 11 models were
11/20
11/45
11/40
11/10

... and ignore the original 11/10, plus the 11/35 and 11/05.

I will still sleep well at night regardless what officialdom decides. :-)

Bill



Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-22 Thread David C. Jenner via cctalk
In 1968-69 my bedroom was right over PDP-8 #6.  It's been 50 years, but 
it may have been referred to as a "straight-8" then?


On 12/21/18 12:51 PM, Jim Carpenter via cctalk wrote:

On 12/21/18 1:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


"Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors

I never heard it called that before then.

Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date?


The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list predates alt.sys.pdp8 by a couple years. I 
just checked the archives and the earliest usage of 'straight-8' is from 
Charles Lasner in an e-mail introducing himself to the still new mailing 
list on August 10th, 1990. I've pasted his complete message at the 
bottom. The 'straight -8' is mentioned in the second sentence of his 
second paragraph.


A quick check shows that it was common for cjl to use the term 
'straight-8'.



I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to
search Usenet by date right now.




I miss DejaNews. Damn I hate Google.

Jim


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Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT
From: Charles Lasner 
To: pdp8-lov...@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Belated Mail Reply
Message-Id: 

Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT
From: Charles Lasner 
To: pdp8-lov...@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Belated Mail Reply

 >Received: from AI.AI.MIT.EDU (CHAOS 3130) by MC.LCS.MIT.EDU 18 Feb 89 
10:32:35 EST

 >Date: Sat, 18 Feb 89 10:32:31 EST
 >From: "Robert E. Seastrom" 
 >To: pdp8-lov...@mc.lcs.mit.edu
 >Message-ID: <540513.890218...@ai.ai.mit.edu>
 >
 >
 >Well, folks, it's finally here.  The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list is now
 >reality!  Messages for the list go to pdp8-lov...@mc.lcs.mit.edu;
 >requests to be added to or deleted from the list go to
 >pdp8-lovers-requ...@mc.lcs.mit.edu (case is _not_ critical here).
 >
 >Perhaps we ought to all introduce ourselves to each other...
 >
 >  This one's for you <7001>
 >
 >  -Rob

From:   cjl

     Let me introduce myself.  I am Charles J. Lasner.  I only use the
J to get my initials, which I usually go by, thus cjl.

     I am a PDP-8 programmer.  I don't know how many of us there are
left, but I started in 1968 with a straight -8 table-top machine at
Brooklyn PolyTechnic Institute.  The school probably has another name
by now, due to academia's answer to the business world's phenomena of
acquisitions and mergers.  The machine in question is quite
legendary.  The work done on it is responsible in LARGE part for why
all of us are here reading this, since this is the "original" PDP-8
used by the legendary Richard Lary and company.  If it can be said
that the PDP-8 created the phrase "mini-computer", then it is THIS
PDP-8 that made the "mini-computer" into something other than a
paper-tape machine!

     This PDP-8 was originally configured by the academics in charge
as a programmer's disaster: 4K, EAE, a model 33 teletype, AF01A A-D
converter with 16-channel multiplexor,  AA01A D-A converter with
(wow!) THREE channels.  A Bud blue rack cabinet housed the A-D and
D-A with lots of empty space.  All empty slots had those wonderful
super-thick zinctone panels, and the fronts were all in place; they
were held in place with those pressed-in heavy shiny metal threaded
bosses that most of you can't figure out the purpose of on your
wire-wrap racks.  As far as I know, these were the only style of
cabinet that the bosses were supplied for.  The plates used heavy
nickel-plated knurled knobs with a screw-driver slot you could turn
with a dime.

     Soon after all of this arrived, and got nowhere due to the
enormous waste of time paper-tape can be (especially at 110 baud and
unreliable at that!), a DEC salesman suggested a high-speed
reader/punch be added.  Fortunately for all of us, THIS NEVER
HAPPENED, for if it had, no further work of external significence
would have been done.  (The EE department would have been very happy
to just develop their diddly A-D and D-A experiment programs.)

     Due to the efforts of Richard Lary, Jack Burness, Hank Maurer,
Lenny Elekman, and Joseph R. Fischetti (to name a few legends I
knew), the EE department was convinced to spend MORE money on some
new-fangled beast the salesman had vaguely heard of; he was fairly
certain it was called a MicroTape.  This was, of course, an early
name for DECtape.  So the EE department shelled out another $8k and
got itself another Bud blue rack cabinet complete with sides, another
power controller, 11 buss cables, and a TC01 and one (yes one!) TU55
DECtape drive.  The academics thought that the drive was custom made
for the P

Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-22 Thread JAMES FEHLINGER via cctalk
On 12/21/18 2:51 PM, Jim Carpenter via cctalk wrote:

> The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list predates alt.sys.pdp8 by a couple years. I 
> just checked the archives and the earliest usage of 'straight-8' is from 
> Charles Lasner in an e-mail introducing himself to the still new mailing 
> list on August 10th, 1990. . .
>
> A quick check shows that it was common for cjl to use the term 'straight-8'. 
> . .

Well, in the original edition of Ted Nelson's _Computer Lib_ (copyright 1974),
on p. 47 (under the heading "Those Adorable Infuriating R.E.S.I.S.T.O.R.S."),
there's a photo with the caption: "Steve at the old straight 8."


Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Rod Smallwood via cctalk
I worked with PDP-8's from 1970 to 1975 and worked at DEC from 1975 to 
1985.


I cannot recall the term 'Straight 8' ever being used.

I think it may have been referred to as the 'Model 8'

Rod Smallwood


On 22/12/2018 03:46, John Ames via cctalk wrote:

I'd definitely be interested to hear if the DECheads on this list know
the specifics, but I'd gathered that it came about once other models
were introduced and the need arose to differentiate between, say, a
PDP-8/e and a "straight" (i.e. vanilla) PDP-8. The car connection
probably made the particular phrasing happen (of course, they
originally photographed it in a Volkswagen, but they couldn't very
well have started calling it a "flat-4!")


--




Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread ben via cctalk

On 12/21/2018 8:46 PM, John Ames via cctalk wrote:

I'd definitely be interested to hear if the DECheads on this list know
the specifics, but I'd gathered that it came about once other models
were introduced and the need arose to differentiate between, say, a
PDP-8/e and a "straight" (i.e. vanilla) PDP-8. The car connection
probably made the particular phrasing happen (of course, they
originally photographed it in a Volkswagen, but they couldn't very
well have started calling it a "flat-4!")



Well your flat 4 can get you a few $$$ as nice little aircraft engine.
Happy Flying.
Ben.


Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread John Ames via cctalk
I'd definitely be interested to hear if the DECheads on this list know
the specifics, but I'd gathered that it came about once other models
were introduced and the need arose to differentiate between, say, a
PDP-8/e and a "straight" (i.e. vanilla) PDP-8. The car connection
probably made the particular phrasing happen (of course, they
originally photographed it in a Volkswagen, but they couldn't very
well have started calling it a "flat-4!")


Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

2018-12-21 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk



> On Dec 21, 2018, at 7:15 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
>> From: Paul Koning
> 
>> I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that
>> memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would
>> be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved).
> 
> I think that's what it must be. It's the MR11-A, about which I can find very
> little - it's in the 1970 "pdp11 handbook", p. 46, but I can't find anything
> else.
> 
> It says there "2-piece core with wire braid, 256 wires, 64 cores". Reading
> between the lines, it sounds like the customer could 'configure' the contents
> (perhaps using the "2-piece core), DEC didn't do it.
> 
> If anyone knows anything about this memory, that would be really good.
> 
>   Noel

That description makes it sound like transformer memory (cores operating as 
linear devices), as opposed to be square hysteresis loop memory such as 
conventional core RAM as well as Apollo or EL-X1 core ROM.

Brent Hilpert wrote a good explanation of the various kinds.  The "transformer" 
type he describes is the Wang calculator microcode ROM.

For 1k by 16, core rope memory would use more cores but fewer wires.  And it 
might be slower because (in the Apollo flavor at least, which is the one DEC 
would be likely to know about since it came from Lincoln Labs) it takes a 
two-part cycle to read a word.

paul



Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

2018-12-21 Thread Noel Chiappa via cctalk
> From: Bill Degnan

> It's pretty well researched at this point to be true to state that the
> first two PDP 11 models were the 11/10 and 11/20. It just takes a while
> for this to work its way through academia.

Some places got the message a while ago:

  http://gunkies.org/w/index.php?title=PDP-11&diff=11528&oldid=11525

Note the date.

I was reading the 1970 "pdp11 handbook" (note the title - all the pictures
show machines labelled "pdp11") and read about it there.


> From: Paul Koning

> I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that
> memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would
> be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved).

I think that's what it must be. It's the MR11-A, about which I can find very
little - it's in the 1970 "pdp11 handbook", p. 46, but I can't find anything
else.

It says there "2-piece core with wire braid, 256 wires, 64 cores". Reading
between the lines, it sounds like the customer could 'configure' the contents
(perhaps using the "2-piece core), DEC didn't do it.

If anyone knows anything about this memory, that would be really good.

Noel


Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

2018-12-21 Thread Jay Jaeger via cctalk



On 12/21/2018 4:00 PM, Bill Degnan wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:47 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk
> mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> 
> On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk
> mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal
> >>> 'model'
> >>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the
> -11/20
> >>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from
> all the
> >>> other -8's.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the
> numbers did
> >> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were
> called PDP
> >> 11/10 and PDP 11/20.  These are just as legitimate and well
> defined as the
> >> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the
> one fact of
> >> the front plate.  The fact that the name does not appear on the
> front panel
> >> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid.  Read the first
> >> brochure, don't take my word for it.
> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593
> >>
> >> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model
> 11/20 and
> >> 11/10 existed from day one.  The problem is that DEC re-used the
> 11/10
> >> model name again a few years later, the other cause for
> neglecting the
> >> original 11/10 model.
> >>
> >> Bill
> >
> > Wow.
> >
> > Did that V1 11/10 ever ship?  Do any still exist?
> >
> > I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory.  What technology is
> that memory?  At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but
> that would be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved).
> >
> >       paul
> >
> >
> 
> It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and
> pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by
> the latter 11/10 variant by 1972.
> 
> Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near
> as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?)
> that they just dropped it.  Or maybe a marketing / design team
> communication misstep.
> 
> The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to
> the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns
> (same as the RAM core).  It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256
> words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20.
> 
> The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every
> 1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle
> times).
> 
> As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those
> who ordered 11/10's).
> 
> 
> When you consider the differences between the 11/35 and 11/40 were
> simply option choices and the later 11/10 11/05, I can see no reason why
> the "original 11/10 11/20 is any different other than the front plate
> being "PDP-11" for the later pairing.  I am unaware of any 11/10's still
> around but I am also unaware of any Rolm 1601's that still exist, does
> not mean it was not a real Ruggednova model.  etc.
> 
> Basically it's being inconsistent to not acknowledge the original 11/10.
> 
> We could say that the PDP 11 models were
> 11/20
> 11/45
> 11/40
> 11/10
> 
> ... and ignore the original 11/10, plus the 11/35 and 11/05. 
> 
> I will still sleep well at night regardless what officialdom decides. :-)
> 
> Bill

Unless, of course, none of them found their way into customers' hands.


Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

2018-12-21 Thread Bill Degnan via cctalk
On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:47 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal
> >>> 'model'
> >>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
> >>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all
> the
> >>> other -8's.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers
> did
> >> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called
> PDP
> >> 11/10 and PDP 11/20.  These are just as legitimate and well defined as
> the
> >> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one
> fact of
> >> the front plate.  The fact that the name does not appear on the front
> panel
> >> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid.  Read the first
> >> brochure, don't take my word for it.
> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593
> >>
> >> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20
> and
> >> 11/10 existed from day one.  The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10
> >> model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the
> >> original 11/10 model.
> >>
> >> Bill
> >
> > Wow.
> >
> > Did that V1 11/10 ever ship?  Do any still exist?
> >
> > I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory.  What technology is that
> memory?  At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be
> pretty expensive (due to the labor involved).
> >
> >   paul
> >
> >
>
> It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and
> pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by
> the latter 11/10 variant by 1972.
>
> Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near
> as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?)
> that they just dropped it.  Or maybe a marketing / design team
> communication misstep.
>
> The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to
> the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns
> (same as the RAM core).  It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256
> words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20.
>
> The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every
> 1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle
> times).
>
> As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those
> who ordered 11/10's).
>

When you consider the differences between the 11/35 and 11/40 were simply
option choices and the later 11/10 11/05, I can see no reason why the
"original 11/10 11/20 is any different other than the front plate being
"PDP-11" for the later pairing.  I am unaware of any 11/10's still around
but I am also unaware of any Rolm 1601's that still exist, does not mean it
was not a real Ruggednova model.  etc.

Basically it's being inconsistent to not acknowledge the original 11/10.

We could say that the PDP 11 models were
11/20
11/45
11/40
11/10

... and ignore the original 11/10, plus the 11/35 and 11/05.

I will still sleep well at night regardless what officialdom decides. :-)

Bill


Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

2018-12-21 Thread Jay Jaeger via cctalk
On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal
>>> 'model'
>>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
>>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the
>>> other -8's.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did
>> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP
>> 11/10 and PDP 11/20.  These are just as legitimate and well defined as the
>> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of
>> the front plate.  The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel
>> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid.  Read the first
>> brochure, don't take my word for it.
>> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593
>>
>> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and
>> 11/10 existed from day one.  The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10
>> model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the
>> original 11/10 model.
>>
>> Bill
> 
> Wow.
> 
> Did that V1 11/10 ever ship?  Do any still exist?
> 
> I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory.  What technology is that 
> memory?  At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be 
> pretty expensive (due to the labor involved).
> 
>   paul
> 
> 

It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and
pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by
the latter 11/10 variant by 1972.

Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near
as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?)
that they just dropped it.  Or maybe a marketing / design team
communication misstep.

The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to
the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns
(same as the RAM core).  It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256
words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20.

The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every
1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle
times).

As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those
who ordered 11/10's).


Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread allison via cctalk
On 12/21/2018 01:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote:
>
> On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
>> "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors
>>
>> I never heard it called that before then.
> Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date?
>
> I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to
> search Usenet by date right now.
>
>
Not I, that is a deep hole to dredge.  I do know it was a clear way to
differentiate the various
family of 8 machines and it was on alt.sys.pdp-8 I'd seen it way back
like mid 80s.
It may have been old by then.  I used to peek there as my first PDP-8e
was in hand
around late 1983.

And the automotive reference was not it.  It was the straight as in not
later lettered
versions.  Best similar use is:  Whiskey straight, water on the side.

One of the DEC history things about the era was often engineering went
may different
directions at the same time  making for a plethora of systems that were
or mostly
PDP-8ish like the PDP-12 that was PDP-8 and LINK.  RICM has a really
pretty one.


Allison




Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Chuck Guzis via cctalk
On 12/21/18 11:32 AM, allison via cctech wrote:

> And the automotive reference was not it.  It was the straight as in not
> later lettered
> versions.  Best similar use is:  Whiskey straight, water on the side.

Could be--but I was pointed out that "straight eight" was an automotive
term familiar to the laity that pre-dated DEC by a goodly number of
years.  We live in a world dominated by automobile marketing.

I suspect the same common connection to "turbo", popularized by the auto
marketeers.

On the other hand, I've never seen a computer advertised with  a
"Turbo-Hydra-Matic" or "Dynaflow" feature.

--Chuck


Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread William Donzelli via cctalk
> Could be--but I was pointed out that "straight eight" was an automotive
> term familiar to the laity that pre-dated DEC by a goodly number of
> years.  We live in a world dominated by automobile marketing.

Some points to ponder:

The term Straight-9 is basically never heard when referring to the
PDP-9 and not a PDP-9/L.

The term "Winchester disk" is another example of name coined after
another deeply embedded cultural term having nothing to do with
computing.

--
Will


Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Fred Cisin via cctalk

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote:

I suspect the same common connection to "turbo", popularized by the auto
marketeers.
On the other hand, I've never seen a computer advertised with  a
"Turbo-Hydra-Matic" or "Dynaflow" feature.


such as "turbo LAG"

Should look around the yards for insignia, such as the Subaru
"Turbo XT 16"


Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

2018-12-21 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk



> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal
>> 'model'
>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the
>> other -8's.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did
> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP
> 11/10 and PDP 11/20.  These are just as legitimate and well defined as the
> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of
> the front plate.  The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel
> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid.  Read the first
> brochure, don't take my word for it.
> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593
> 
> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and
> 11/10 existed from day one.  The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10
> model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the
> original 11/10 model.
> 
> Bill

Wow.

Did that V1 11/10 ever ship?  Do any still exist?

I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory.  What technology is that memory?  
At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be pretty 
expensive (due to the labor involved).

paul



Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Jim Carpenter via cctalk

On 12/21/18 1:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


"Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors

I never heard it called that before then.

Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date?


The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list predates alt.sys.pdp8 by a couple years. I 
just checked the archives and the earliest usage of 'straight-8' is from 
Charles Lasner in an e-mail introducing himself to the still new mailing 
list on August 10th, 1990. I've pasted his complete message at the 
bottom. The 'straight -8' is mentioned in the second sentence of his 
second paragraph.


A quick check shows that it was common for cjl to use the term 'straight-8'.


I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to
search Usenet by date right now.




I miss DejaNews. Damn I hate Google.

Jim


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90 05:37:28 EDT
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    id AA20618; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:12:20 EDT
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT
From: Charles Lasner 
To: pdp8-lov...@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Belated Mail Reply
Message-Id: 

Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT
From: Charles Lasner 
To: pdp8-lov...@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Belated Mail Reply

>Received: from AI.AI.MIT.EDU (CHAOS 3130) by MC.LCS.MIT.EDU 18 Feb 89 
10:32:35 EST

>Date: Sat, 18 Feb 89 10:32:31 EST
>From: "Robert E. Seastrom" 
>To: pdp8-lov...@mc.lcs.mit.edu
>Message-ID: <540513.890218...@ai.ai.mit.edu>
>
>
>Well, folks, it's finally here.  The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list is now
>reality!  Messages for the list go to pdp8-lov...@mc.lcs.mit.edu;
>requests to be added to or deleted from the list go to
>pdp8-lovers-requ...@mc.lcs.mit.edu (case is _not_ critical here).
>
>Perhaps we ought to all introduce ourselves to each other...
>
>  This one's for you <7001>
>
>  -Rob

From:   cjl

    Let me introduce myself.  I am Charles J. Lasner.  I only use the
J to get my initials, which I usually go by, thus cjl.

    I am a PDP-8 programmer.  I don't know how many of us there are
left, but I started in 1968 with a straight -8 table-top machine at
Brooklyn PolyTechnic Institute.  The school probably has another name
by now, due to academia's answer to the business world's phenomena of
acquisitions and mergers.  The machine in question is quite
legendary.  The work done on it is responsible in LARGE part for why
all of us are here reading this, since this is the "original" PDP-8
used by the legendary Richard Lary and company.  If it can be said
that the PDP-8 created the phrase "mini-computer", then it is THIS
PDP-8 that made the "mini-computer" into something other than a
paper-tape machine!

    This PDP-8 was originally configured by the academics in charge
as a programmer's disaster: 4K, EAE, a model 33 teletype, AF01A A-D
converter with 16-channel multiplexor,  AA01A D-A converter with
(wow!) THREE channels.  A Bud blue rack cabinet housed the A-D and
D-A with lots of empty space.  All empty slots had those wonderful
super-thick zinctone panels, and the fronts were all in place; they
were held in place with those pressed-in heavy shiny metal threaded
bosses that most of you can't figure out the purpose of on your
wire-wrap racks.  As far as I know, these were the only style of
cabinet that the bosses were supplied for.  The plates used heavy
nickel-plated knurled knobs with a screw-driver slot you could turn
with a dime.

    Soon after all of this arrived, and got nowhere due to the
enormous waste of time paper-tape can be (especially at 110 baud and
unreliable at that!), a DEC salesman suggested a high-speed
reader/punch be added.  Fortunately for all of us, THIS NEVER
HAPPENED, for if it had, no further work of external significence
would have been done.  (The EE department would have been very happy
to just develop their diddly A-D and D-A experiment programs.)

    Due to the efforts of Richard Lary, Jack Burness, Hank Maurer,
Lenny Elekman, and Joseph R. Fischetti (to name a few legends I
knew), the EE department was convinced to spend MORE money on some
new-fangled beast the salesman had vaguely heard of; he was fairly
certain it was called a MicroTape.  This was, of course, an early
name for DECtape.  So the EE department shelled out another $8k and
got itself another Bud blue rack cabinet complete with sides, another
power controller, 11 buss cables, and a TC01 and one (yes one!) TU55
DECtape drive.  The academics thought that the drive was custom made
for the PDP-8, because the numeral "8" always appeared on the drive
select.  (No need to change drives when you have only one of them!) I
later found out why the "8" was there (not "0"):

    This is a throwback to t

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Bill Degnan via cctalk
>
>
>
> > From: Bill Degnan
>
> > The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the
> numbers
> > did not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were
> > called PDP 11/10 and PDP 11/20. ...  The fact that the name does not
> > appear on the front panel has caused every DEC historian to miss this
> > factoid.
>
> Yeah, it tripped me to. Although after I sent that email, I went back and
> looked, and it's called '-11/20' on all the documents I can find, including
> the prints.
>
> I'll check in the DEC archives (available on BitSavers), but I suspect the
> "PDP-11" on the front panel was the result of something getting dropped in
> the
> process of doing the panel, not the reasult of a name change by DEC.
>
>
>
Sorry to hijack the thread.

The URL I provided has links to documentation with a few early references
to the PDP 11 being 11/10 and 11/20 models that I could find.  A few
magazine articles, etc.  It's pretty well researched at this point to be
true to state that the first two PDP 11 models were the 11/10 and 11/20.
It just takes a while for this to work its way through academia.
Bill


Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Noel Chiappa via cctalk
>> people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the other
>> -8's.

So my assumption (that it was recent) seems to be incorrect; I heard that it
was in use in the 60's to differentiate it (e.g. for knowing what spares to
take). Alas, with the origin that far back in time, we'll probably never find
out what the connection was.

> From: Bill Degnan

> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers
> did not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were
> called PDP 11/10 and PDP 11/20. ...  The fact that the name does not
> appear on the front panel has caused every DEC historian to miss this
> factoid.

Yeah, it tripped me to. Although after I sent that email, I went back and
looked, and it's called '-11/20' on all the documents I can find, including
the prints.

I'll check in the DEC archives (available on BitSavers), but I suspect the
"PDP-11" on the front panel was the result of something getting dropped in the
process of doing the panel, not the reasult of a name change by DEC.

Noel


Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Bill Degnan via cctalk
>
>
>
> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal
> 'model'
> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the
> other -8's.
>
>
>
The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did
not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP
11/10 and PDP 11/20.  These are just as legitimate and well defined as the
11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of
the front plate.  The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel
has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid.  Read the first
brochure, don't take my word for it.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593

Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and
11/10 existed from day one.  The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10
model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the
original 11/10 model.

Bill


Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Al Kossow via cctalk



On 12/21/18 10:56 AM, ben via cctalk wrote:

> Now I got a stupid image of the newer models adding 6 bits on every
> other clock phase for a faster cpu.
> 

Pratt & Whitney R-4360




Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread ben via cctalk

On 12/21/2018 11:37 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Back in the first half the 20th century, there were various
configurations of 8-cylinder internal combustion engines.

We're all familiar with the V-8, but there were inline 8-cylinder
designs used primarily on luxury cars, making for a wonderfully long
engine compartment.  Cord, Buick, Packard, Chrysler and Oldsmobile all
offered the "straight 8" on their high-end models.  Those were called
"straight-eights", I suspect because of the attractiveness of rhyming
name. "Straight 8" configuration was also used on some aircraft as well.

I suspect the name for the early PDP-8 is just a convenient adaptation
of a once well-known automotive term, much like "V-8".

For what it's worth, Ford experimented with an X-8 configuration as
well, but never put it into production.

--Chuck



Now I got a stupid image of the newer models adding 6 bits on every
other clock phase for a faster cpu.



Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Bob Smith via cctalk
Thank you Allison! I was trying to get my fingers to work and kept
having an attack of gasp how could someone not know?
Well said, hope you are doing GREAT!
bob smith, 8/e engineering, 8 engineering, DecComm11, LCG 2080

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 12:58 PM allison via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On 12/21/2018 10:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> > Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came
> > from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name,
> > but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope!
> >
> > Noel
> >
> ssrsly?
>
> It was the first PDP-8 no model letter like S, L, I, E, F, M, or A.  It
> was also the direct decedent of the
> PDP-5 (1963 and transistors) which was the first 12bit machine and
> largely compatible with later
> family of 8 machines.  The PDP-8 series started in 1965 and grew from there.
>
> When looking at the history LINK and LINK-8, PDP12, and later LAB-8 are
> also related and interleaved
> as laboratory machines.
>
> Simple answer, it was DECs first blockbuster machine that was
> manufactured in high volume and was
> very low cost in terms of the day.
>
> The transistor to IC change...  The 8I:
> Also commenting on ICs the 1970 Omnibus 8 (PDP-E)  was the largely MSI
> IC based machine (M series).
> The 8I/8L was the first TTL machine prior to that the systems were
> transistor.The march to higher density
> ICs was well underway.
>
> FYI my first contact was the DEC PDP8I fall of 1969  as part of the
> BOCES LIRICS timeshare system
> (NY, LI, Sufflok county schools). The following year (fall 1970) it was
> integrated into and part of the larger
> DEC System 10 timeshare system running TOPS-10.
>
> None of this is secret or difficult to find.  Doug Jones has a great
> archive.   http://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/
>
>
> Allison


Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Chuck Guzis via cctalk
Back in the first half the 20th century, there were various
configurations of 8-cylinder internal combustion engines.

We're all familiar with the V-8, but there were inline 8-cylinder
designs used primarily on luxury cars, making for a wonderfully long
engine compartment.  Cord, Buick, Packard, Chrysler and Oldsmobile all
offered the "straight 8" on their high-end models.  Those were called
"straight-eights", I suspect because of the attractiveness of rhyming
name. "Straight 8" configuration was also used on some aircraft as well.

I suspect the name for the early PDP-8 is just a convenient adaptation
of a once well-known automotive term, much like "V-8".

For what it's worth, Ford experimented with an X-8 configuration as
well, but never put it into production.

--Chuck


Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Al Kossow via cctalk



On 12/21/18 10:16 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> Or NGram.
> 

didn't see anything meaningful, but "minicomputer" and "software" are fun

minicomputer peaks in 1980




Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread William Donzelli via cctalk
Or NGram.

--
Will

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 1:10 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
 wrote:
>
>
>
> On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
> > "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors
> >
> > I never heard it called that before then.
>
> Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date?
>
> I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to
> search Usenet by date right now.
>
>


Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Al Kossow via cctalk



On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors
> 
> I never heard it called that before then.

Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date?

I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to
search Usenet by date right now.




Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Noel Chiappa via cctalk
> From: Al Kossow

> "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors

My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal 'model'
for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the
other -8's.

But what I _don't_ know is _why_ that particular name? I was hoping some
-8 collector knew...

Noel


Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Al Kossow via cctalk



On 12/21/18 9:58 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 12/21/2018 10:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>> Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came
>> from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name,
>> but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope!
>>
>> Noel
>>
> ssrsly?
> 

yes

"Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors

I never heard it called that before then.






Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread allison via cctalk
On 12/21/2018 10:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came
> from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name,
> but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope!
>
> Noel
>
ssrsly?

It was the first PDP-8 no model letter like S, L, I, E, F, M, or A.  It
was also the direct decedent of the
PDP-5 (1963 and transistors) which was the first 12bit machine and
largely compatible with later
family of 8 machines.  The PDP-8 series started in 1965 and grew from there.

When looking at the history LINK and LINK-8, PDP12, and later LAB-8 are
also related and interleaved
as laboratory machines.

Simple answer, it was DECs first blockbuster machine that was
manufactured in high volume and was
very low cost in terms of the day.

The transistor to IC change...  The 8I:
Also commenting on ICs the 1970 Omnibus 8 (PDP-E)  was the largely MSI
IC based machine (M series).
The 8I/8L was the first TTL machine prior to that the systems were
transistor.    The march to higher density
ICs was well underway. 

FYI my first contact was the DEC PDP8I fall of 1969  as part of the
BOCES LIRICS timeshare system
(NY, LI, Sufflok county schools). The following year (fall 1970) it was
integrated into and part of the larger
DEC System 10 timeshare system running TOPS-10.

None of this is secret or difficult to find.  Doug Jones has a great
archive.   http://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/


Allison


Origin of 'Straight 8' name

2018-12-21 Thread Noel Chiappa via cctalk
Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came
from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name,
but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope!

Noel