Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]
when the multi rack PDP11/20 (on the switch panel) was being assembled for delivery to Aeroflote, circa 1971 or 2 iirc, the unit did not have a working power fail recovery capability. The machine was then referred to as an 11/15. At that time, the PDP11 was considered a controlled technolgy item, and there were some guys present for the testing in the mill on 1-2. Anyone familiar with 1=2 at that time, knows the floors did shift with heavy loads. This caused said computer to suffer power failures as the racks shifted, bus cables shifted and the machine would crash. after about the 15th crash, no pun intended, the delivery to Aeroflot was approved. A couple of years later, the Ryad version of the 11 was delivered to a shop, and found to be an exact duplicate of the delivered 11. it dd not have power fail capability. bob On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 7:05 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 3:50 AM David C. Jenner via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org wrote: > > > Are you sure the referenced early PDP-11/10 wasn't really the PDP-11/15? > > We got an 11/15 because it was cheaper and DEC had one sitting around > > that we could get with end of year left over budget funds. > > > > Yes. The "11/15" did not exist in 1969 early 1970 documents from DEC and > articles, including the original product brochure and pricelist: > > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 > > Bill
Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]
On Sat, Dec 22, 2018, 3:50 AM David C. Jenner via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org wrote: > Are you sure the referenced early PDP-11/10 wasn't really the PDP-11/15? > We got an 11/15 because it was cheaper and DEC had one sitting around > that we could get with end of year left over budget funds. > Yes. The "11/15" did not exist in 1969 early 1970 documents from DEC and articles, including the original product brochure and pricelist: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 Bill
Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]
Are you sure the referenced early PDP-11/10 wasn't really the PDP-11/15? We got an 11/15 because it was cheaper and DEC had one sitting around that we could get with end of year left over budget funds. On 12/21/18 2:00 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:47 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal 'model' for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20 BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the other -8's. The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP 11/10 and PDP 11/20. These are just as legitimate and well defined as the 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of the front plate. The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid. Read the first brochure, don't take my word for it. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and 11/10 existed from day one. The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10 model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the original 11/10 model. Bill Wow. Did that V1 11/10 ever ship? Do any still exist? I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). paul It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by the latter 11/10 variant by 1972. Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?) that they just dropped it. Or maybe a marketing / design team communication misstep. The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns (same as the RAM core). It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256 words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20. The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every 1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle times). As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those who ordered 11/10's). When you consider the differences between the 11/35 and 11/40 were simply option choices and the later 11/10 11/05, I can see no reason why the "original 11/10 11/20 is any different other than the front plate being "PDP-11" for the later pairing. I am unaware of any 11/10's still around but I am also unaware of any Rolm 1601's that still exist, does not mean it was not a real Ruggednova model. etc. Basically it's being inconsistent to not acknowledge the original 11/10. We could say that the PDP 11 models were 11/20 11/45 11/40 11/10 ... and ignore the original 11/10, plus the 11/35 and 11/05. I will still sleep well at night regardless what officialdom decides. :-) Bill
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
In 1968-69 my bedroom was right over PDP-8 #6. It's been 50 years, but it may have been referred to as a "straight-8" then? On 12/21/18 12:51 PM, Jim Carpenter via cctalk wrote: On 12/21/18 1:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors I never heard it called that before then. Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date? The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list predates alt.sys.pdp8 by a couple years. I just checked the archives and the earliest usage of 'straight-8' is from Charles Lasner in an e-mail introducing himself to the still new mailing list on August 10th, 1990. I've pasted his complete message at the bottom. The 'straight -8' is mentioned in the second sentence of his second paragraph. A quick check shows that it was common for cjl to use the term 'straight-8'. I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to search Usenet by date right now. I miss DejaNews. Damn I hate Google. Jim Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:37:28 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu ([128.52.32.80]) by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:36:07 EDT Received: from watsun.cc.columbia.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA00254; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:12:04 EDT Received: by watsun.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB) id AA20618; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:12:20 EDT Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: pdp8-lov...@ai.mit.edu Subject: Belated Mail Reply Message-Id: Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: pdp8-lov...@ai.mit.edu Subject: Belated Mail Reply >Received: from AI.AI.MIT.EDU (CHAOS 3130) by MC.LCS.MIT.EDU 18 Feb 89 10:32:35 EST >Date: Sat, 18 Feb 89 10:32:31 EST >From: "Robert E. Seastrom" >To: pdp8-lov...@mc.lcs.mit.edu >Message-ID: <540513.890218...@ai.ai.mit.edu> > > >Well, folks, it's finally here. The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list is now >reality! Messages for the list go to pdp8-lov...@mc.lcs.mit.edu; >requests to be added to or deleted from the list go to >pdp8-lovers-requ...@mc.lcs.mit.edu (case is _not_ critical here). > >Perhaps we ought to all introduce ourselves to each other... > > This one's for you <7001> > > -Rob From: cjl Let me introduce myself. I am Charles J. Lasner. I only use the J to get my initials, which I usually go by, thus cjl. I am a PDP-8 programmer. I don't know how many of us there are left, but I started in 1968 with a straight -8 table-top machine at Brooklyn PolyTechnic Institute. The school probably has another name by now, due to academia's answer to the business world's phenomena of acquisitions and mergers. The machine in question is quite legendary. The work done on it is responsible in LARGE part for why all of us are here reading this, since this is the "original" PDP-8 used by the legendary Richard Lary and company. If it can be said that the PDP-8 created the phrase "mini-computer", then it is THIS PDP-8 that made the "mini-computer" into something other than a paper-tape machine! This PDP-8 was originally configured by the academics in charge as a programmer's disaster: 4K, EAE, a model 33 teletype, AF01A A-D converter with 16-channel multiplexor, AA01A D-A converter with (wow!) THREE channels. A Bud blue rack cabinet housed the A-D and D-A with lots of empty space. All empty slots had those wonderful super-thick zinctone panels, and the fronts were all in place; they were held in place with those pressed-in heavy shiny metal threaded bosses that most of you can't figure out the purpose of on your wire-wrap racks. As far as I know, these were the only style of cabinet that the bosses were supplied for. The plates used heavy nickel-plated knurled knobs with a screw-driver slot you could turn with a dime. Soon after all of this arrived, and got nowhere due to the enormous waste of time paper-tape can be (especially at 110 baud and unreliable at that!), a DEC salesman suggested a high-speed reader/punch be added. Fortunately for all of us, THIS NEVER HAPPENED, for if it had, no further work of external significence would have been done. (The EE department would have been very happy to just develop their diddly A-D and D-A experiment programs.) Due to the efforts of Richard Lary, Jack Burness, Hank Maurer, Lenny Elekman, and Joseph R. Fischetti (to name a few legends I knew), the EE department was convinced to spend MORE money on some new-fangled beast the salesman had vaguely heard of; he was fairly certain it was called a MicroTape. This was, of course, an early name for DECtape. So the EE department shelled out another $8k and got itself another Bud blue rack cabinet complete with sides, another power controller, 11 buss cables, and a TC01 and one (yes one!) TU55 DECtape drive. The academics thought that the drive was custom made for the P
Origin of 'Straight 8' name
On 12/21/18 2:51 PM, Jim Carpenter via cctalk wrote: > The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list predates alt.sys.pdp8 by a couple years. I > just checked the archives and the earliest usage of 'straight-8' is from > Charles Lasner in an e-mail introducing himself to the still new mailing > list on August 10th, 1990. . . > > A quick check shows that it was common for cjl to use the term 'straight-8'. > . . Well, in the original edition of Ted Nelson's _Computer Lib_ (copyright 1974), on p. 47 (under the heading "Those Adorable Infuriating R.E.S.I.S.T.O.R.S."), there's a photo with the caption: "Steve at the old straight 8."
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
I worked with PDP-8's from 1970 to 1975 and worked at DEC from 1975 to 1985. I cannot recall the term 'Straight 8' ever being used. I think it may have been referred to as the 'Model 8' Rod Smallwood On 22/12/2018 03:46, John Ames via cctalk wrote: I'd definitely be interested to hear if the DECheads on this list know the specifics, but I'd gathered that it came about once other models were introduced and the need arose to differentiate between, say, a PDP-8/e and a "straight" (i.e. vanilla) PDP-8. The car connection probably made the particular phrasing happen (of course, they originally photographed it in a Volkswagen, but they couldn't very well have started calling it a "flat-4!") --
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
On 12/21/2018 8:46 PM, John Ames via cctalk wrote: I'd definitely be interested to hear if the DECheads on this list know the specifics, but I'd gathered that it came about once other models were introduced and the need arose to differentiate between, say, a PDP-8/e and a "straight" (i.e. vanilla) PDP-8. The car connection probably made the particular phrasing happen (of course, they originally photographed it in a Volkswagen, but they couldn't very well have started calling it a "flat-4!") Well your flat 4 can get you a few $$$ as nice little aircraft engine. Happy Flying. Ben.
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
I'd definitely be interested to hear if the DECheads on this list know the specifics, but I'd gathered that it came about once other models were introduced and the need arose to differentiate between, say, a PDP-8/e and a "straight" (i.e. vanilla) PDP-8. The car connection probably made the particular phrasing happen (of course, they originally photographed it in a Volkswagen, but they couldn't very well have started calling it a "flat-4!")
Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]
> On Dec 21, 2018, at 7:15 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: > > ... >> From: Paul Koning > >> I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that >> memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would >> be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). > > I think that's what it must be. It's the MR11-A, about which I can find very > little - it's in the 1970 "pdp11 handbook", p. 46, but I can't find anything > else. > > It says there "2-piece core with wire braid, 256 wires, 64 cores". Reading > between the lines, it sounds like the customer could 'configure' the contents > (perhaps using the "2-piece core), DEC didn't do it. > > If anyone knows anything about this memory, that would be really good. > > Noel That description makes it sound like transformer memory (cores operating as linear devices), as opposed to be square hysteresis loop memory such as conventional core RAM as well as Apollo or EL-X1 core ROM. Brent Hilpert wrote a good explanation of the various kinds. The "transformer" type he describes is the Wang calculator microcode ROM. For 1k by 16, core rope memory would use more cores but fewer wires. And it might be slower because (in the Apollo flavor at least, which is the one DEC would be likely to know about since it came from Lincoln Labs) it takes a two-part cycle to read a word. paul
Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]
> From: Bill Degnan > It's pretty well researched at this point to be true to state that the > first two PDP 11 models were the 11/10 and 11/20. It just takes a while > for this to work its way through academia. Some places got the message a while ago: http://gunkies.org/w/index.php?title=PDP-11&diff=11528&oldid=11525 Note the date. I was reading the 1970 "pdp11 handbook" (note the title - all the pictures show machines labelled "pdp11") and read about it there. > From: Paul Koning > I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that > memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would > be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). I think that's what it must be. It's the MR11-A, about which I can find very little - it's in the 1970 "pdp11 handbook", p. 46, but I can't find anything else. It says there "2-piece core with wire braid, 256 wires, 64 cores". Reading between the lines, it sounds like the customer could 'configure' the contents (perhaps using the "2-piece core), DEC didn't do it. If anyone knows anything about this memory, that would be really good. Noel
Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]
On 12/21/2018 4:00 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:47 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk > mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote: > > On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal > >>> 'model' > >>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the > -11/20 > >>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from > all the > >>> other -8's. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the > numbers did > >> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were > called PDP > >> 11/10 and PDP 11/20. These are just as legitimate and well > defined as the > >> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the > one fact of > >> the front plate. The fact that the name does not appear on the > front panel > >> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid. Read the first > >> brochure, don't take my word for it. > >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 > >> > >> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model > 11/20 and > >> 11/10 existed from day one. The problem is that DEC re-used the > 11/10 > >> model name again a few years later, the other cause for > neglecting the > >> original 11/10 model. > >> > >> Bill > > > > Wow. > > > > Did that V1 11/10 ever ship? Do any still exist? > > > > I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is > that memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but > that would be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). > > > > paul > > > > > > It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and > pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by > the latter 11/10 variant by 1972. > > Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near > as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?) > that they just dropped it. Or maybe a marketing / design team > communication misstep. > > The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to > the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns > (same as the RAM core). It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256 > words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20. > > The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every > 1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle > times). > > As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those > who ordered 11/10's). > > > When you consider the differences between the 11/35 and 11/40 were > simply option choices and the later 11/10 11/05, I can see no reason why > the "original 11/10 11/20 is any different other than the front plate > being "PDP-11" for the later pairing. I am unaware of any 11/10's still > around but I am also unaware of any Rolm 1601's that still exist, does > not mean it was not a real Ruggednova model. etc. > > Basically it's being inconsistent to not acknowledge the original 11/10. > > We could say that the PDP 11 models were > 11/20 > 11/45 > 11/40 > 11/10 > > ... and ignore the original 11/10, plus the 11/35 and 11/05. > > I will still sleep well at night regardless what officialdom decides. :-) > > Bill Unless, of course, none of them found their way into customers' hands.
Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]
On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:47 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal > >>> 'model' > >>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20 > >>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all > the > >>> other -8's. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers > did > >> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called > PDP > >> 11/10 and PDP 11/20. These are just as legitimate and well defined as > the > >> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one > fact of > >> the front plate. The fact that the name does not appear on the front > panel > >> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid. Read the first > >> brochure, don't take my word for it. > >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 > >> > >> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 > and > >> 11/10 existed from day one. The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10 > >> model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the > >> original 11/10 model. > >> > >> Bill > > > > Wow. > > > > Did that V1 11/10 ever ship? Do any still exist? > > > > I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that > memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be > pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). > > > > paul > > > > > > It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and > pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by > the latter 11/10 variant by 1972. > > Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near > as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?) > that they just dropped it. Or maybe a marketing / design team > communication misstep. > > The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to > the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns > (same as the RAM core). It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256 > words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20. > > The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every > 1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle > times). > > As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those > who ordered 11/10's). > When you consider the differences between the 11/35 and 11/40 were simply option choices and the later 11/10 11/05, I can see no reason why the "original 11/10 11/20 is any different other than the front plate being "PDP-11" for the later pairing. I am unaware of any 11/10's still around but I am also unaware of any Rolm 1601's that still exist, does not mean it was not a real Ruggednova model. etc. Basically it's being inconsistent to not acknowledge the original 11/10. We could say that the PDP 11 models were 11/20 11/45 11/40 11/10 ... and ignore the original 11/10, plus the 11/35 and 11/05. I will still sleep well at night regardless what officialdom decides. :-) Bill
Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]
On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal >>> 'model' >>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20 >>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the >>> other -8's. >>> >>> >>> >> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did >> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP >> 11/10 and PDP 11/20. These are just as legitimate and well defined as the >> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of >> the front plate. The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel >> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid. Read the first >> brochure, don't take my word for it. >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 >> >> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and >> 11/10 existed from day one. The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10 >> model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the >> original 11/10 model. >> >> Bill > > Wow. > > Did that V1 11/10 ever ship? Do any still exist? > > I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that > memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be > pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). > > paul > > It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by the latter 11/10 variant by 1972. Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?) that they just dropped it. Or maybe a marketing / design team communication misstep. The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns (same as the RAM core). It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256 words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20. The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every 1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle times). As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those who ordered 11/10's).
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
On 12/21/2018 01:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > > On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors >> >> I never heard it called that before then. > Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date? > > I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to > search Usenet by date right now. > > Not I, that is a deep hole to dredge. I do know it was a clear way to differentiate the various family of 8 machines and it was on alt.sys.pdp-8 I'd seen it way back like mid 80s. It may have been old by then. I used to peek there as my first PDP-8e was in hand around late 1983. And the automotive reference was not it. It was the straight as in not later lettered versions. Best similar use is: Whiskey straight, water on the side. One of the DEC history things about the era was often engineering went may different directions at the same time making for a plethora of systems that were or mostly PDP-8ish like the PDP-12 that was PDP-8 and LINK. RICM has a really pretty one. Allison
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
On 12/21/18 11:32 AM, allison via cctech wrote: > And the automotive reference was not it. It was the straight as in not > later lettered > versions. Best similar use is: Whiskey straight, water on the side. Could be--but I was pointed out that "straight eight" was an automotive term familiar to the laity that pre-dated DEC by a goodly number of years. We live in a world dominated by automobile marketing. I suspect the same common connection to "turbo", popularized by the auto marketeers. On the other hand, I've never seen a computer advertised with a "Turbo-Hydra-Matic" or "Dynaflow" feature. --Chuck
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
> Could be--but I was pointed out that "straight eight" was an automotive > term familiar to the laity that pre-dated DEC by a goodly number of > years. We live in a world dominated by automobile marketing. Some points to ponder: The term Straight-9 is basically never heard when referring to the PDP-9 and not a PDP-9/L. The term "Winchester disk" is another example of name coined after another deeply embedded cultural term having nothing to do with computing. -- Will
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
On Fri, 21 Dec 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: I suspect the same common connection to "turbo", popularized by the auto marketeers. On the other hand, I've never seen a computer advertised with a "Turbo-Hydra-Matic" or "Dynaflow" feature. such as "turbo LAG" Should look around the yards for insignia, such as the Subaru "Turbo XT 16"
Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]
> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > >> >> >> >> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal >> 'model' >> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20 >> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the >> other -8's. >> >> >> > The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did > not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP > 11/10 and PDP 11/20. These are just as legitimate and well defined as the > 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of > the front plate. The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel > has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid. Read the first > brochure, don't take my word for it. > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 > > Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and > 11/10 existed from day one. The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10 > model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the > original 11/10 model. > > Bill Wow. Did that V1 11/10 ever ship? Do any still exist? I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved). paul
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
On 12/21/18 1:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors I never heard it called that before then. Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date? The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list predates alt.sys.pdp8 by a couple years. I just checked the archives and the earliest usage of 'straight-8' is from Charles Lasner in an e-mail introducing himself to the still new mailing list on August 10th, 1990. I've pasted his complete message at the bottom. The 'straight -8' is mentioned in the second sentence of his second paragraph. A quick check shows that it was common for cjl to use the term 'straight-8'. I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to search Usenet by date right now. I miss DejaNews. Damn I hate Google. Jim Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:37:28 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu ([128.52.32.80]) by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:36:07 EDT Received: from watsun.cc.columbia.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA00254; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:12:04 EDT Received: by watsun.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB) id AA20618; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:12:20 EDT Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: pdp8-lov...@ai.mit.edu Subject: Belated Mail Reply Message-Id: Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: pdp8-lov...@ai.mit.edu Subject: Belated Mail Reply >Received: from AI.AI.MIT.EDU (CHAOS 3130) by MC.LCS.MIT.EDU 18 Feb 89 10:32:35 EST >Date: Sat, 18 Feb 89 10:32:31 EST >From: "Robert E. Seastrom" >To: pdp8-lov...@mc.lcs.mit.edu >Message-ID: <540513.890218...@ai.ai.mit.edu> > > >Well, folks, it's finally here. The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list is now >reality! Messages for the list go to pdp8-lov...@mc.lcs.mit.edu; >requests to be added to or deleted from the list go to >pdp8-lovers-requ...@mc.lcs.mit.edu (case is _not_ critical here). > >Perhaps we ought to all introduce ourselves to each other... > > This one's for you <7001> > > -Rob From: cjl Let me introduce myself. I am Charles J. Lasner. I only use the J to get my initials, which I usually go by, thus cjl. I am a PDP-8 programmer. I don't know how many of us there are left, but I started in 1968 with a straight -8 table-top machine at Brooklyn PolyTechnic Institute. The school probably has another name by now, due to academia's answer to the business world's phenomena of acquisitions and mergers. The machine in question is quite legendary. The work done on it is responsible in LARGE part for why all of us are here reading this, since this is the "original" PDP-8 used by the legendary Richard Lary and company. If it can be said that the PDP-8 created the phrase "mini-computer", then it is THIS PDP-8 that made the "mini-computer" into something other than a paper-tape machine! This PDP-8 was originally configured by the academics in charge as a programmer's disaster: 4K, EAE, a model 33 teletype, AF01A A-D converter with 16-channel multiplexor, AA01A D-A converter with (wow!) THREE channels. A Bud blue rack cabinet housed the A-D and D-A with lots of empty space. All empty slots had those wonderful super-thick zinctone panels, and the fronts were all in place; they were held in place with those pressed-in heavy shiny metal threaded bosses that most of you can't figure out the purpose of on your wire-wrap racks. As far as I know, these were the only style of cabinet that the bosses were supplied for. The plates used heavy nickel-plated knurled knobs with a screw-driver slot you could turn with a dime. Soon after all of this arrived, and got nowhere due to the enormous waste of time paper-tape can be (especially at 110 baud and unreliable at that!), a DEC salesman suggested a high-speed reader/punch be added. Fortunately for all of us, THIS NEVER HAPPENED, for if it had, no further work of external significence would have been done. (The EE department would have been very happy to just develop their diddly A-D and D-A experiment programs.) Due to the efforts of Richard Lary, Jack Burness, Hank Maurer, Lenny Elekman, and Joseph R. Fischetti (to name a few legends I knew), the EE department was convinced to spend MORE money on some new-fangled beast the salesman had vaguely heard of; he was fairly certain it was called a MicroTape. This was, of course, an early name for DECtape. So the EE department shelled out another $8k and got itself another Bud blue rack cabinet complete with sides, another power controller, 11 buss cables, and a TC01 and one (yes one!) TU55 DECtape drive. The academics thought that the drive was custom made for the PDP-8, because the numeral "8" always appeared on the drive select. (No need to change drives when you have only one of them!) I later found out why the "8" was there (not "0"): This is a throwback to t
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
> > > > > From: Bill Degnan > > > The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the > numbers > > did not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were > > called PDP 11/10 and PDP 11/20. ... The fact that the name does not > > appear on the front panel has caused every DEC historian to miss this > > factoid. > > Yeah, it tripped me to. Although after I sent that email, I went back and > looked, and it's called '-11/20' on all the documents I can find, including > the prints. > > I'll check in the DEC archives (available on BitSavers), but I suspect the > "PDP-11" on the front panel was the result of something getting dropped in > the > process of doing the panel, not the reasult of a name change by DEC. > > > Sorry to hijack the thread. The URL I provided has links to documentation with a few early references to the PDP 11 being 11/10 and 11/20 models that I could find. A few magazine articles, etc. It's pretty well researched at this point to be true to state that the first two PDP 11 models were the 11/10 and 11/20. It just takes a while for this to work its way through academia. Bill
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
>> people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the other >> -8's. So my assumption (that it was recent) seems to be incorrect; I heard that it was in use in the 60's to differentiate it (e.g. for knowing what spares to take). Alas, with the origin that far back in time, we'll probably never find out what the connection was. > From: Bill Degnan > The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers > did not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were > called PDP 11/10 and PDP 11/20. ... The fact that the name does not > appear on the front panel has caused every DEC historian to miss this > factoid. Yeah, it tripped me to. Although after I sent that email, I went back and looked, and it's called '-11/20' on all the documents I can find, including the prints. I'll check in the DEC archives (available on BitSavers), but I suspect the "PDP-11" on the front panel was the result of something getting dropped in the process of doing the panel, not the reasult of a name change by DEC. Noel
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
> > > > My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal > 'model' > for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20 > BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the > other -8's. > > > The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP 11/10 and PDP 11/20. These are just as legitimate and well defined as the 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of the front plate. The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid. Read the first brochure, don't take my word for it. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593 Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and 11/10 existed from day one. The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10 model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the original 11/10 model. Bill
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
On 12/21/18 10:56 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Now I got a stupid image of the newer models adding 6 bits on every > other clock phase for a faster cpu. > Pratt & Whitney R-4360
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
On 12/21/2018 11:37 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Back in the first half the 20th century, there were various configurations of 8-cylinder internal combustion engines. We're all familiar with the V-8, but there were inline 8-cylinder designs used primarily on luxury cars, making for a wonderfully long engine compartment. Cord, Buick, Packard, Chrysler and Oldsmobile all offered the "straight 8" on their high-end models. Those were called "straight-eights", I suspect because of the attractiveness of rhyming name. "Straight 8" configuration was also used on some aircraft as well. I suspect the name for the early PDP-8 is just a convenient adaptation of a once well-known automotive term, much like "V-8". For what it's worth, Ford experimented with an X-8 configuration as well, but never put it into production. --Chuck Now I got a stupid image of the newer models adding 6 bits on every other clock phase for a faster cpu.
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
Thank you Allison! I was trying to get my fingers to work and kept having an attack of gasp how could someone not know? Well said, hope you are doing GREAT! bob smith, 8/e engineering, 8 engineering, DecComm11, LCG 2080 On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 12:58 PM allison via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/21/2018 10:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came > > from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name, > > but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope! > > > > Noel > > > ssrsly? > > It was the first PDP-8 no model letter like S, L, I, E, F, M, or A. It > was also the direct decedent of the > PDP-5 (1963 and transistors) which was the first 12bit machine and > largely compatible with later > family of 8 machines. The PDP-8 series started in 1965 and grew from there. > > When looking at the history LINK and LINK-8, PDP12, and later LAB-8 are > also related and interleaved > as laboratory machines. > > Simple answer, it was DECs first blockbuster machine that was > manufactured in high volume and was > very low cost in terms of the day. > > The transistor to IC change... The 8I: > Also commenting on ICs the 1970 Omnibus 8 (PDP-E) was the largely MSI > IC based machine (M series). > The 8I/8L was the first TTL machine prior to that the systems were > transistor.The march to higher density > ICs was well underway. > > FYI my first contact was the DEC PDP8I fall of 1969 as part of the > BOCES LIRICS timeshare system > (NY, LI, Sufflok county schools). The following year (fall 1970) it was > integrated into and part of the larger > DEC System 10 timeshare system running TOPS-10. > > None of this is secret or difficult to find. Doug Jones has a great > archive. http://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/ > > > Allison
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
Back in the first half the 20th century, there were various configurations of 8-cylinder internal combustion engines. We're all familiar with the V-8, but there were inline 8-cylinder designs used primarily on luxury cars, making for a wonderfully long engine compartment. Cord, Buick, Packard, Chrysler and Oldsmobile all offered the "straight 8" on their high-end models. Those were called "straight-eights", I suspect because of the attractiveness of rhyming name. "Straight 8" configuration was also used on some aircraft as well. I suspect the name for the early PDP-8 is just a convenient adaptation of a once well-known automotive term, much like "V-8". For what it's worth, Ford experimented with an X-8 configuration as well, but never put it into production. --Chuck
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
On 12/21/18 10:16 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Or NGram. > didn't see anything meaningful, but "minicomputer" and "software" are fun minicomputer peaks in 1980
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
Or NGram. -- Will On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 1:10 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors > > > > I never heard it called that before then. > > Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date? > > I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to > search Usenet by date right now. > >
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors > > I never heard it called that before then. Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date? I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to search Usenet by date right now.
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
> From: Al Kossow > "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal 'model' for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20 BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the other -8's. But what I _don't_ know is _why_ that particular name? I was hoping some -8 collector knew... Noel
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
On 12/21/18 9:58 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 12/21/2018 10:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came >> from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name, >> but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope! >> >> Noel >> > ssrsly? > yes "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors I never heard it called that before then.
Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name
On 12/21/2018 10:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came > from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name, > but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope! > > Noel > ssrsly? It was the first PDP-8 no model letter like S, L, I, E, F, M, or A. It was also the direct decedent of the PDP-5 (1963 and transistors) which was the first 12bit machine and largely compatible with later family of 8 machines. The PDP-8 series started in 1965 and grew from there. When looking at the history LINK and LINK-8, PDP12, and later LAB-8 are also related and interleaved as laboratory machines. Simple answer, it was DECs first blockbuster machine that was manufactured in high volume and was very low cost in terms of the day. The transistor to IC change... The 8I: Also commenting on ICs the 1970 Omnibus 8 (PDP-E) was the largely MSI IC based machine (M series). The 8I/8L was the first TTL machine prior to that the systems were transistor. The march to higher density ICs was well underway. FYI my first contact was the DEC PDP8I fall of 1969 as part of the BOCES LIRICS timeshare system (NY, LI, Sufflok county schools). The following year (fall 1970) it was integrated into and part of the larger DEC System 10 timeshare system running TOPS-10. None of this is secret or difficult to find. Doug Jones has a great archive. http://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/ Allison
Origin of 'Straight 8' name
Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name, but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope! Noel
