Re: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS
> From: Warner Losh > Do those chips have ROM numbers on them? I have updated the: https://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-E_CPU https://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-EA_CPU articles with the DEC part numbers for the i) microcode and ii) instruction decode PROms. That's not all the PROMs on the Control card - there are effing bazillions of the damned things (I suspect they used them to reduce the amount of random logic, so the CPU'd fit on two boards) - but it's most of them. I have yet to triple-check them, so there might still be transcription error or two. > From: Rod Smallwood > I am sure somebody will come up with the actual images either the > original files or derived from what we have. I wouldn't be too sure of that; silence so far. I have reached out to Mike Douglas, to ask where the microcode dump on DeRamp came from: perhaps the originator can help with the missing bits. (Although perhaps I should ask Al K; BitSavers also has the dump, and it's older, so perhaps that copy came from the originator.) > We have narrowed the problem down. > Its the instruction decode ROM's that are the issue. > The images of those are whats needed. All of them? Or is just one failed? I'm wondering if you've just had a single one lose a bit or two; that's somewhat common in old PROMs. The chip you reported as failing (E111) almost certainly couldn't have taken out an instruction decode PROM, it's nowhere near them. I ask because we have absolutely nothing on those PROM's contents. With the microcode PROMs, we at least have the contents in symbolic form (see pg. 15 of MP00082; alas, we don't seem to have the KD11-EA equivalent of Table 7-15 from EK-FP11A-TM-002), but for all the instruction decode PROMs - nada. Absolutely nothing. But if they're _mostly_ there, with the partial contents, and a description of the failure mode (e.g. 'SETC doesn't set the C bit'), we might be able to work out what bit got dropped. Failing that, someone's going to have to volunteer to unsolder a set, and read them out - at least, I assume that's what would have to be done. Perhaps a logic analyzer could be attached to an instruction decode ROMwhile the CPU ran diagnostics, and eventually a complete readout of the contents accumulated. Noel
Re: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS
Looking at my inventory, I seem to have no less than four spare M8266 (plus one in my 11/34 that runs, plus probably another in my 11/34 out in the garage.) Rod, where are you located? JRJ On 2/9/2022 6:16 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: Hi We have narrowed the problem down. Its the instruction decode ROM's that are the issue. The images of those are whats needed. Regards Rod On 09/02/2022 23:14, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote: On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: I found https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ which has the source code... But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode images. Actually, the "m8266_ucode.v.txt" there seems to actually be the program that produced the symbolic dump (which is also available at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt) It looks like the program is in VHDL or something like that, but it doesn't seem to have the actual microcode (was it stored/defined in another VHDL file?); that raises the question of where the actual microcode that it was dumping was. It's Verilog (the 'other' hardware language besides VHDL), and indeed the rom images are in other files/modules - in some kind of straight binary format, I'd guess. I'm properly intrigued why someone would choose to do this - which seems to be mostly listing the microcode in a readable format - in Verilog. Unless of course it would be with a long term goal of using that microcode in an emulator that is sufficiently like a 'real' 11/34 to run it unchanged. I wonder if that is the case, and what became of the project - since the files are from 2014, it's probably safe to assume it got stuck somewhere along the way. Somewhere way down on my list of things to explore is something similar but then for the 11/70 - to make a vhdl version that is microcode compatible with the original, unlike the current pdp2011 that's 'only' functionally compatible. And this is about exactly the same way I would start - except I don't have the '70 rom images yet... If anyone has them and is willing to share, drop me a note ;-) Cheers Sytse
Re: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS
On Wed, Feb 9, 2022, 5:16 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > Hi > > We have narrowed the problem down. > > Its the instruction decode ROM's that are the issue. > > The images of those are whats needed. > Do those chips have ROM numbers on them? 23-x is the usual format... Warner Regards Rod > > > On 09/02/2022 23:14, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: > I found > > https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ > which has the source code... > > But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode > images. > >> Actually, the "m8266_ucode.v.txt" there seems to actually be the > program that > >> produced the symbolic dump (which is also available at: > >> > >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt) > >> > >> It looks like the program is in VHDL or something like that, but it > doesn't > >> seem to have the actual microcode (was it stored/defined in another VHDL > >> file?); that raises the question of where the actual microcode that it > was > >> dumping was. > > It's Verilog (the 'other' hardware language besides VHDL), and indeed > the rom images are in other files/modules - in some kind of straight binary > format, I'd guess. > > > > I'm properly intrigued why someone would choose to do this - which seems > to be mostly listing the microcode in a readable format - in Verilog. > Unless of course it would be with a long term goal of using that microcode > in an emulator that is sufficiently like a 'real' 11/34 to run it > unchanged. I wonder if that is the case, and what became of the project - > since the files are from 2014, it's probably safe to assume it got stuck > somewhere along the way. > > > > Somewhere way down on my list of things to explore is something similar > but then for the 11/70 - to make a vhdl version that is microcode > compatible with the original, unlike the current pdp2011 that's 'only' > functionally compatible. And this is about exactly the same way I would > start - except I don't have the '70 rom images yet... If anyone has them > and is willing to share, drop me a note ;-) > > > > Cheers > > Sytse > > > > >
Re: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS
Hi We have narrowed the problem down. Its the instruction decode ROM's that are the issue. The images of those are whats needed. Regards Rod On 09/02/2022 23:14, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote: On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: I found https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ which has the source code... But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode images. Actually, the "m8266_ucode.v.txt" there seems to actually be the program that produced the symbolic dump (which is also available at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt) It looks like the program is in VHDL or something like that, but it doesn't seem to have the actual microcode (was it stored/defined in another VHDL file?); that raises the question of where the actual microcode that it was dumping was. It's Verilog (the 'other' hardware language besides VHDL), and indeed the rom images are in other files/modules - in some kind of straight binary format, I'd guess. I'm properly intrigued why someone would choose to do this - which seems to be mostly listing the microcode in a readable format - in Verilog. Unless of course it would be with a long term goal of using that microcode in an emulator that is sufficiently like a 'real' 11/34 to run it unchanged. I wonder if that is the case, and what became of the project - since the files are from 2014, it's probably safe to assume it got stuck somewhere along the way. Somewhere way down on my list of things to explore is something similar but then for the 11/70 - to make a vhdl version that is microcode compatible with the original, unlike the current pdp2011 that's 'only' functionally compatible. And this is about exactly the same way I would start - except I don't have the '70 rom images yet... If anyone has them and is willing to share, drop me a note ;-) Cheers Sytse
Re: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS
>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: > >>> I found >>> https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ >>> which has the source code... >>> >>> But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode >>> images. > > Actually, the "m8266_ucode.v.txt" there seems to actually be the program that > produced the symbolic dump (which is also available at: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt) > > It looks like the program is in VHDL or something like that, but it doesn't > seem to have the actual microcode (was it stored/defined in another VHDL > file?); that raises the question of where the actual microcode that it was > dumping was. It's Verilog (the 'other' hardware language besides VHDL), and indeed the rom images are in other files/modules - in some kind of straight binary format, I'd guess. I'm properly intrigued why someone would choose to do this - which seems to be mostly listing the microcode in a readable format - in Verilog. Unless of course it would be with a long term goal of using that microcode in an emulator that is sufficiently like a 'real' 11/34 to run it unchanged. I wonder if that is the case, and what became of the project - since the files are from 2014, it's probably safe to assume it got stuck somewhere along the way. Somewhere way down on my list of things to explore is something similar but then for the 11/70 - to make a vhdl version that is microcode compatible with the original, unlike the current pdp2011 that's 'only' functionally compatible. And this is about exactly the same way I would start - except I don't have the '70 rom images yet... If anyone has them and is willing to share, drop me a note ;-) Cheers Sytse
Re: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS
Hi Thank you all for your kind and quick replies. I am sure somebody will come up with the actual images either the original files or derived from what we have. As the key to the function of the 11/34 CPU their addition to the body of informatio they will be of imense benefit to us all. Rod On 09/02/2022 14:02, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 6:18 PM Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> On the M8266 CPU control board a defective 7404 (E111) has killed a >>> bunch of the PROMs holding the microcode. That's pretty astonishing; I've heard of PROMs dropping bits over time, but I'm a bit amazed to hear of a failure in a TTL gate (the 74S04 is a hex inverter; its gates are on pg. 7 of the M8266 prints - they produce uPC03-08) taking out a bunch of other gates connected to it. >> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: >> I found >> https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ >> which has the source code... >> >> But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode >> images. Actually, the "m8266_ucode.v.txt" there seems to actually be the program that produced the symbolic dump (which is also available at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt) It looks like the program is in VHDL or something like that, but it doesn't seem to have the actual microcode (was it stored/defined in another VHDL file?); that raises the question of where the actual microcode that it was dumping was. It might be worth inquiring of Mike Douglas (he runs the DeRamp site) to find out where the files in "mfe_archive" came from; perhaps the source has, or knows of, the file which "m8266_ucode.out.txt" was a symbolic dump of - maybe from a complete KD11-EA simulation in VHDL? If that's not possible,it would be trivial to extract the PROM contents (well, partial contents - see below) from the "m8266_ucode.out.txt" file; each uword entry starts with the lines: * PDP-11/34a micro code word for MPC = 000 * (MSB is left, indented fields generated by expansion ROMs) micro word = 0111 1100 1100 1000 1010 0001 1110 from ROM: E105 E103 E104 E100 E98 E97 E99 E106 E107 E108 E109 E110 The address of each uword is the "MPC = xxx" line; the contents of the 12 PROMs, at that address, are given on the "micro word = " line (the PROMs are 4 bits wide). If someone explained what format they needed as input for burning new PROMs, I could easily (like an hour) write a small portable program (using StdIO only, so it could be compiled and run on _anything_) that read that file in, and spat out the 12 PROM files. (Most of the dump could be ignored - all the data that's needed is in that one line.) BUT (and this is why it would be good to get back to the source of that file), that's not a complete M8266 ucode PROM dump. The KD11-EA has a uword address space 1 bit larger than the KD11-E - almost certainly to support floating point instructions; the KD11-EA adds 'uPC 09' (although looking its source at the top of pg. 7 of the prints, I don't quite grok how it is generated - maybe it's fed back through J2 from the FP11-A when one is plugged in). Anyway, uword addresses run up to 02000 in the KD11-EA, and the last uword in that dump is 0777. Interestingly, according to the flow charts of the 'basic' KD11-E/EA ucode in the prints (indexed and annotated here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-E/EA_microcode in full), they stop at 0757 - but the dump (in "m8266_ucode.out.txt") contains uwords that are 'supposed' to be blank (per the flow charts), as well as above 0757. So that dump must have been prepared from a copy of the 'new' KD11-EA PROMs - the ones including the floating point ucode. (Note that the FP11-A _also_ contains ucode, intended to control the stuff on the FP11-A; but the floating point instructions _also_ use the KD11-A for some stuff - e.g. fetching operands from main memory. Only the ucode address space is shared.) > From: Warner Losh > There's a small chance that the tools.tar.gz link on > http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/ has these, but that's for a > different module so who knows. Right, a _completely_ different card - a boot PROM, not a CPU; totally un-related - and by a different person (Don North). But just for completeness, I looked in "tools.tar.gz", and it's just bootstrap PROM stuff. Noel
Re: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS
>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 6:18 PM Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> On the M8266 CPU control board a defective 7404 (E111) has killed a >>> bunch of the PROMs holding the microcode. That's pretty astonishing; I've heard of PROMs dropping bits over time, but I'm a bit amazed to hear of a failure in a TTL gate (the 74S04 is a hex inverter; its gates are on pg. 7 of the M8266 prints - they produce uPC03-08) taking out a bunch of other gates connected to it. >> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: >> I found >> https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ >> which has the source code... >> >> But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode >> images. Actually, the "m8266_ucode.v.txt" there seems to actually be the program that produced the symbolic dump (which is also available at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/m8266_ucode.out.txt) It looks like the program is in VHDL or something like that, but it doesn't seem to have the actual microcode (was it stored/defined in another VHDL file?); that raises the question of where the actual microcode that it was dumping was. It might be worth inquiring of Mike Douglas (he runs the DeRamp site) to find out where the files in "mfe_archive" came from; perhaps the source has, or knows of, the file which "m8266_ucode.out.txt" was a symbolic dump of - maybe from a complete KD11-EA simulation in VHDL? If that's not possible,it would be trivial to extract the PROM contents (well, partial contents - see below) from the "m8266_ucode.out.txt" file; each uword entry starts with the lines: * PDP-11/34a micro code word for MPC = 000 * (MSB is left, indented fields generated by expansion ROMs) micro word = 0111 1100 1100 1000 1010 0001 1110 from ROM: E105 E103 E104 E100 E98 E97 E99 E106 E107 E108 E109 E110 The address of each uword is the "MPC = xxx" line; the contents of the 12 PROMs, at that address, are given on the "micro word = " line (the PROMs are 4 bits wide). If someone explained what format they needed as input for burning new PROMs, I could easily (like an hour) write a small portable program (using StdIO only, so it could be compiled and run on _anything_) that read that file in, and spat out the 12 PROM files. (Most of the dump could be ignored - all the data that's needed is in that one line.) BUT (and this is why it would be good to get back to the source of that file), that's not a complete M8266 ucode PROM dump. The KD11-EA has a uword address space 1 bit larger than the KD11-E - almost certainly to support floating point instructions; the KD11-EA adds 'uPC 09' (although looking its source at the top of pg. 7 of the prints, I don't quite grok how it is generated - maybe it's fed back through J2 from the FP11-A when one is plugged in). Anyway, uword addresses run up to 02000 in the KD11-EA, and the last uword in that dump is 0777. Interestingly, according to the flow charts of the 'basic' KD11-E/EA ucode in the prints (indexed and annotated here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/KD11-E/EA_microcode in full), they stop at 0757 - but the dump (in "m8266_ucode.out.txt") contains uwords that are 'supposed' to be blank (per the flow charts), as well as above 0757. So that dump must have been prepared from a copy of the 'new' KD11-EA PROMs - the ones including the floating point ucode. (Note that the FP11-A _also_ contains ucode, intended to control the stuff on the FP11-A; but the floating point instructions _also_ use the KD11-A for some stuff - e.g. fetching operands from main memory. Only the ucode address space is shared.) > From: Warner Losh > There's a small chance that the tools.tar.gz link on > http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/ has these, but that's for a > different module so who knows. Right, a _completely_ different card - a boot PROM, not a CPU; totally un-related - and by a different person (Don North). But just for completeness, I looked in "tools.tar.gz", and it's just bootstrap PROM stuff. Noel
Re: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS
On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:04 PM Warner Losh wrote: > I found > https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ > which has the source code... > > But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode > images. > There's a small chance that the tools.tar.gz link on http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/ has these, but that's for a different module so who knows... > http://filedump.theglitchworks.net/software/vintage/dec/roms/bdv11_upgrade/ > has a number of ROM images. Don't know if they are the ones you want. What > are the XX-X-XX numbers on the PROMs you are looking for? > > Warner > > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 6:18 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi >> >> Jerry Walker and I have an 11/34 under restoration. >> >> We have run into a bit of a problem. >> >> On the M8266 CPU control board a defective 7404 (E111) has killed a >> bunch of the PROMs holding the microcode. >> >> Does anybody have or can get images of the PROMs on this board so >> replacement devices an be programmed. >> >> Rod >> >> >>
Re: PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS
I found https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Digital%20Equipment%20Corporation/08%20PDP-11/01%20PDP-1104-1134/05%20PDP-1104-1134%20Microcode/ which has the source code... But I couldn't find the tools to use these files to create microcode images. http://filedump.theglitchworks.net/software/vintage/dec/roms/bdv11_upgrade/ has a number of ROM images. Don't know if they are the ones you want. What are the XX-X-XX numbers on the PROMs you are looking for? Warner On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 6:18 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi > > Jerry Walker and I have an 11/34 under restoration. > > We have run into a bit of a problem. > > On the M8266 CPU control board a defective 7404 (E111) has killed a > bunch of the PROMs holding the microcode. > > Does anybody have or can get images of the PROMs on this board so > replacement devices an be programmed. > > Rod > > >
PDP-11/34 CPU PROMS
Hi Jerry Walker and I have an 11/34 under restoration. We have run into a bit of a problem. On the M8266 CPU control board a defective 7404 (E111) has killed a bunch of the PROMs holding the microcode. Does anybody have or can get images of the PROMs on this board so replacement devices an be programmed. Rod
