Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 1/12/19 6:45 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 01/12/2019 05:03 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> On 1/12/19 4:30 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>>> On 01/12/2019 04:14 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
 On 1/12/19 2:25 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 01/12/2019 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
>> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in
>>> either a BA23 or a BA123.  I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for
>>> my /23+.
>> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23
>> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down
>> 11/53 were as well.  But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen
>> were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals -
>> I've got one.
>>
> Pete,
>
> Your right the 11/23+ showed up on a lot of boxes but not the BA123
> though it would fit.
 My 11/23+ is in a box labeled PDP-11/23PLUS on the front with
 three toggle switches.  :-)  It has a 9276-A backplane labeled
 OPTION 11/23B. It is a 9 slot, Q22 A-B-C-D .  That's the home
 for my next system which will (hopefully) have 2 meg of memory,
 a DEQNA and an Andromeda Card for a small hard disk and 8" floppy.
>>> BA11 box with one of the usual two common backplanes or standard BA23.
>>>
>>> Problem with DEQNA is what OS?  RT11 does nothing with it.  RSX-11
>>> I don't have a recent enough version so its often unused/
>> My only problem is I have 3 DEQNA and 1 DELQA.  I thought I read
>> somewhere recently that the DEQNA was the better of the two.
> DELQA replace the DEQNA as often they didn't work, high failure rate in
> service.
> There was also a DAta corruption bug that also turned up so DELQA was the
> replacement.

And then there was the old how to crash a PDP-11 (and I think early
VAX as well) by flooding a network.  Luckily all of mine will be on
switches and accidental flooding won't happen.  Of course that doesn't
mean I won;t try it just for fun.

> 
>> As for software, what about the Kent TCPIP package?  Will that
>> not work with the DEQNA?  I thought the two Ethernet controllers
>> for QBUS were functionally the same.
> Roughly as the DEQNA carried a mop boot loader but it didn't use it for
> RT-11.  RT does nto that I know of through 5.4 support the Ni device
> for any internal use, an application can but you get to write code and
> create a Decnet endpoint.

I don't think any common PDP-11 OS could net boot, but that doesn't
mean I can't do it myself.  I was wondering how hard it would be to
get Xinu to netboot rather than boot over a serial line.  :-)

> 
> I know of now IP stacks for PDP11, they may exist but not in my vocabulary.
> I can't see why not though but then you likely need UNIX and what version?

More than one as far as I know.  Johnny Billquist did one for RSX.
I thought Process Software had one before they settled on only VMS.
TCPIP for TSX and RT-11 from kent.edu. (I have never used it but I
have been told by people more knowledgeable than myslf that is works
really well.  I plan to find out now.)

And, of course, Ultrix-11 and BSD2.11 both have full networking.


> 
> I know V6 doesn't and I have that on RL02.
>> And, while we are at it, if I type BOOT XH does it look for a
>> MOP Server?
> For RSX it may work as RSX later versions supported networking.

I am not worried about what will be downloaded (yet), just what typing
BOOT XH actually does.  I guess I will noe for sure when I try it with
a network  monitor running.  If it works as I hope, I have a lot of
experience MOP Booting other devices.

> 
 I also plan on another small 11/23 with 128KW of memory and an
 18 bit backplane so I can use the RX02 emulator.  And, probably
 an Andromeda in there, too


 To bring my part of this discussion to an end, I now have a BA23
 MicroPDP box with an 11/73 CPU, 4 meg of memory, DHV11 for eight
 serial lines (probably only use one to talk to a TU58 emulator
 but the DHV11 was just sitting there looking lonely) a DEQNA
 and a CMD SCSI Controller set for 6 disks and one tape.  Only
 thing it lacks at this point is software.
>>> The TU58 like a responsive IO a DLV11J is a better choice for console and DD
>>> and works best if first card after the memory (early in the interrupt
>>> grant chain).
>> My 11/73 only has a console, thus the need for the DHV11 but really
>> only one port. (Although I may try putting multiple serial ports in
>> all the boxes and doing some "networking" over them.  :-)
> Right the 11/23 and later quad 11/73 have console the dual width without
> pulling out
> the rack to look did not.

Not my 11/73.  The 23's have two ports but the 73 only had one.

> 
>>> The simulators are faster than tu58 so it makes for fewer retries.
>>> I use DHV11 for terminal and modem lines (slower stuff).
 On to my 

Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread allison via cctalk
On 01/12/2019 05:03 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> On 1/12/19 4:30 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>> On 01/12/2019 04:14 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>> On 1/12/19 2:25 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
 On 01/12/2019 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>
>> I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in
>> either a BA23 or a BA123.  I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for
>> my /23+.
> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23
> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down
> 11/53 were as well.  But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen
> were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals -
> I've got one.
>
 Pete,

 Your right the 11/23+ showed up on a lot of boxes but not the BA123
 though it would fit.
>>> My 11/23+ is in a box labeled PDP-11/23PLUS on the front with
>>> three toggle switches.  :-)  It has a 9276-A backplane labeled
>>> OPTION 11/23B. It is a 9 slot, Q22 A-B-C-D .  That's the home
>>> for my next system which will (hopefully) have 2 meg of memory,
>>> a DEQNA and an Andromeda Card for a small hard disk and 8" floppy.
>> BA11 box with one of the usual two common backplanes or standard BA23.
>>
>> Problem with DEQNA is what OS?  RT11 does nothing with it.  RSX-11
>> I don't have a recent enough version so its often unused/
> My only problem is I have 3 DEQNA and 1 DELQA.  I thought I read
> somewhere recently that the DEQNA was the better of the two.
DELQA replace the DEQNA as often they didn't work, high failure rate in
service.
There was also a DAta corruption bug that also turned up so DELQA was the
replacement.

> As for software, what about the Kent TCPIP package?  Will that
> not work with the DEQNA?  I thought the two Ethernet controllers
> for QBUS were functionally the same.
Roughly as the DEQNA carried a mop boot loader but it didn't use it for
RT-11.  RT does nto that I know of through 5.4 support the Ni device
for any internal use, an application can but you get to write code and
create a Decnet endpoint.

I know of now IP stacks for PDP11, they may exist but not in my vocabulary.
I can't see why not though but then you likely need UNIX and what version?

I know V6 doesn't and I have that on RL02.
> And, while we are at it, if I type BOOT XH does it look for a
> MOP Server?
For RSX it may work as RSX later versions supported networking.

>>> I also plan on another small 11/23 with 128KW of memory and an
>>> 18 bit backplane so I can use the RX02 emulator.  And, probably
>>> an Andromeda in there, too
>>>
>>>
>>> To bring my part of this discussion to an end, I now have a BA23
>>> MicroPDP box with an 11/73 CPU, 4 meg of memory, DHV11 for eight
>>> serial lines (probably only use one to talk to a TU58 emulator
>>> but the DHV11 was just sitting there looking lonely) a DEQNA
>>> and a CMD SCSI Controller set for 6 disks and one tape.  Only
>>> thing it lacks at this point is software.
>> The TU58 like a responsive IO a DLV11J is a better choice for console and DD
>> and works best if first card after the memory (early in the interrupt
>> grant chain).
> My 11/73 only has a console, thus the need for the DHV11 but really
> only one port. (Although I may try putting multiple serial ports in
> all the boxes and doing some "networking" over them.  :-)
Right the 11/23 and later quad 11/73 have console the dual width without
pulling out
the rack to look did not.

>> The simulators are faster than tu58 so it makes for fewer retries.
>> I use DHV11 for terminal and modem lines (slower stuff).
>>> On to my next project.
>>>
>>> Thanks for all the help.  I had forgotten just how much fun
>>> real computers were compared to PC's and MAC's.
>> Yes they are.  Their performance without all the gui gunk is often a
>> suprize to many that have not worked with them.

I've had people running stuff on a 486/dx33 with 8mb (win3.11 as DOS 5.22)
and RT11 on PDP11/23 with 512kbyte  and totally blew their minds.  The 11
ran a lot of stuff that the PC could and was faster.  Then they got to
see it as
a multiuser system with RSTS, push them over with a feather.   The
multitasking and multiuser aspect shows it off.  Side effect of time and
maturity of OS and Instruction set with good hardware.

The Storage systems were better and MMU made swapping and memory
management cleaner so beat the tar off segmentation and early Intel 32bit
(386/486 era) as it didn't do context switching at all well (slow).

Once graphics found home then it had to a VAX/VMS on a 3100/GPX
and a color tube to get the same level wow.

>> More surprising than most would accept.  It's not a PDP-11 but
>> I have a 6809 that was sold as a toy for running games that I have
>> had 4 remote login sessions and a web server running on.  And
>> that was with networked disks and all remote access over a 115K
>> serial 

Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 1/12/19 4:30 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 01/12/2019 04:14 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> On 1/12/19 2:25 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>>> On 01/12/2019 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
 On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:

> I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in
> either a BA23 or a BA123.  I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for
> my /23+.
 I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23
 boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down
 11/53 were as well.  But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen
 were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals -
 I've got one.

>>> Pete,
>>>
>>> Your right the 11/23+ showed up on a lot of boxes but not the BA123
>>> though it would fit.
>> My 11/23+ is in a box labeled PDP-11/23PLUS on the front with
>> three toggle switches.  :-)  It has a 9276-A backplane labeled
>> OPTION 11/23B. It is a 9 slot, Q22 A-B-C-D .  That's the home
>> for my next system which will (hopefully) have 2 meg of memory,
>> a DEQNA and an Andromeda Card for a small hard disk and 8" floppy.
> BA11 box with one of the usual two common backplanes or standard BA23.
> 
> Problem with DEQNA is what OS?  RT11 does nothing with it.  RSX-11
> I don't have a recent enough version so its often unused/

My only problem is I have 3 DEQNA and 1 DELQA.  I thought I read
somewhere recently that the DEQNA was the better of the two.

As for software, what about the Kent TCPIP package?  Will that
not work with the DEQNA?  I thought the two Ethernet controllers
for QBUS were functionally the same.

And, while we are at it, if I type BOOT XH does it look for a
MOP Server?
> 
>> I also plan on another small 11/23 with 128KW of memory and an
>> 18 bit backplane so I can use the RX02 emulator.  And, probably
>> an Andromeda in there, too
>>
>>
>> To bring my part of this discussion to an end, I now have a BA23
>> MicroPDP box with an 11/73 CPU, 4 meg of memory, DHV11 for eight
>> serial lines (probably only use one to talk to a TU58 emulator
>> but the DHV11 was just sitting there looking lonely) a DEQNA
>> and a CMD SCSI Controller set for 6 disks and one tape.  Only
>> thing it lacks at this point is software.
> The TU58 like a responsive IO a DLV11J is a better choice for console and DD
> and works best if first card after the memory (early in the interrupt
> grant chain).

My 11/73 only has a console, thus the need for the DHV11 but really
only one port. (Although I may try putting multiple serial ports in
all the boxes and doing some "networking" over them.  :-)


> The simulators are faster than tu58 so it makes for fewer retries.
> I use DHV11 for terminal and modem lines (slower stuff).
>> On to my next project.
>>
>> Thanks for all the help.  I had forgotten just how much fun
>> real computers were compared to PC's and MAC's.
> Yes they are.  Their performance without all the gui gunk is often a
> suprize
> to many that have not worked with them.


More surprising than most would accept.  It's not a PDP-11 but
I have a 6809 that was sold as a toy for running games that I have
had 4 remote login sessions and a web server running on.  And
that was with networked disks and all remote access over a 115K
serial line on a bitbanger port!!  I would love to see a version
of that OS on the PDP-11.

bill




Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread allison via cctalk
On 01/12/2019 04:14 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> On 1/12/19 2:25 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>> On 01/12/2019 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
>>> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>
 I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in
 either a BA23 or a BA123.  I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for
 my /23+.
>>> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23
>>> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down
>>> 11/53 were as well.  But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen
>>> were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals -
>>> I've got one.
>>>
>> Pete,
>>
>> Your right the 11/23+ showed up on a lot of boxes but not the BA123
>> though it would fit.  
> My 11/23+ is in a box labeled PDP-11/23PLUS on the front with
> three toggle switches.  :-)  It has a 9276-A backplane labeled
> OPTION 11/23B. It is a 9 slot, Q22 A-B-C-D .  That's the home
> for my next system which will (hopefully) have 2 meg of memory,
> a DEQNA and an Andromeda Card for a small hard disk and 8" floppy.
BA11 box with one of the usual two common backplanes or standard BA23.

Problem with DEQNA is what OS?  RT11 does nothing with it.  RSX-11
I don't have a recent enough version so its often unused/

> I also plan on another small 11/23 with 128KW of memory and an
> 18 bit backplane so I can use the RX02 emulator.  And, probably
> an Andromeda in there, too
>
>
> To bring my part of this discussion to an end, I now have a BA23
> MicroPDP box with an 11/73 CPU, 4 meg of memory, DHV11 for eight
> serial lines (probably only use one to talk to a TU58 emulator
> but the DHV11 was just sitting there looking lonely) a DEQNA
> and a CMD SCSI Controller set for 6 disks and one tape.  Only
> thing it lacks at this point is software.
The TU58 like a responsive IO a DLV11J is a better choice for console and DD
and works best if first card after the memory (early in the interrupt
grant chain).
The simulators are faster than tu58 so it makes for fewer retries.
I use DHV11 for terminal and modem lines (slower stuff).
> On to my next project.
>
> Thanks for all the help.  I had forgotten just how much fun
> real computers were compared to PC's and MAC's.
Yes they are.  Their performance without all the gui gunk is often a
suprize
to many that have not worked with them.

Allison
> bill



Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 1/12/19 2:25 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 01/12/2019 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
>> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in
>>> either a BA23 or a BA123.  I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for
>>> my /23+.
>>
>> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23
>> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down
>> 11/53 were as well.  But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen
>> were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals -
>> I've got one.
>>
> Pete,
> 
> Your right the 11/23+ showed up on a lot of boxes but not the BA123
> though it would fit.  

My 11/23+ is in a box labeled PDP-11/23PLUS on the front with
three toggle switches.  :-)  It has a 9276-A backplane labeled
OPTION 11/23B. It is a 9 slot, Q22 A-B-C-D .  That's the home
for my next system which will (hopefully) have 2 meg of memory,
a DEQNA and an Andromeda Card for a small hard disk and 8" floppy.

I also plan on another small 11/23 with 128KW of memory and an
18 bit backplane so I can use the RX02 emulator.  And, probably
an Andromeda in there, too


To bring my part of this discussion to an end, I now have a BA23
MicroPDP box with an 11/73 CPU, 4 meg of memory, DHV11 for eight
serial lines (probably only use one to talk to a TU58 emulator
but the DHV11 was just sitting there looking lonely) a DEQNA
and a CMD SCSI Controller set for 6 disks and one tape.  Only
thing it lacks at this point is software.

On to my next project.

Thanks for all the help.  I had forgotten just how much fun
real computers were compared to PC's and MAC's.

bill


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread allison via cctalk
On 01/12/2019 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>
>> I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in
>> either a BA23 or a BA123.  I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for
>> my /23+.
>
> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23
> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down
> 11/53 were as well.  But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen
> were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals -
> I've got one.
>
Pete,

Your right the 11/23+ showed up on a lot of boxes but not the BA123
though it would fit.  The  BA23 as the micropdp11 or 11/53..  names and
models were a large jumble.  The J11 based CPU were showing up int BA123
as the later ones had PMI and a natural for the 123 as anyone
using J11 likely wanted storage, memory and space for it.  

Not not all of the dual width 11/73s were slow chips only that the were
run at 15mhz.  No advantage for faster as Qbus transactions
are slower for memory so the PMI versions were faster by default.

My BA23 (micropdp11was upgraded to microVAXII by me before DEC left me
and the machine next to it under the desk was VIDSYS: a
MicrovaxII GPX They both came home with me on last day.   The BA23 was
put back to the micropdp11 config and VIDSYS: remains though
with larger disks.  I also have a rack based system (11/73 CPU) and
multiple BA11 series mostly 11/23(various flavors) based but have the
11/2 board and LSI-11.   Even An H11 backplane with LSI-11 and Heath ram
and IO.

While there were many sold systems and a larger number of supported
systems Qbus PDP-11 was more mix and match than most any
and the early Qbus microVAX series did that for a while. 


Allison


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread allison via cctalk
On 01/12/2019 12:36 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> On 1/12/19 12:24 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
>> On 11/01/2019 23:58, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
>>> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 3:51 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
>>>  wrote:
 Mine are all BA23.  Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX?
>>> As sold, most likely.  I don't think DEC ever configured any MicroPDP
>>> systems in a BA123 but no reason it doesn't work.
>> Absolutely not so - there were very many microPDP-11/83 systems sold in 
>> BA123 cabinets, in fact probably more in BA123 than in BA23.  The 
>> MicroPDP-11 System Maintenance Manual features the BA123 heavily 
>> throughout, as do other microPDP-11 manuals.
>>
> None of my MicroPDP-11 manuals show anything but the BA23. Most
> show the install as being in a deskside pedestal.  But even the
> one that shows rack mount installation is only BA23.
>
> bill
And my older manuals don't show anything other than BA11, later manuals
are useful for that reason.

Allison




Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Pete Turnbull via cctalk

On 12/01/2019 17:39, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


One confusing part of this.  Everything I have read today
seems to say that the only difference between the 11/73
and the 11/83 in a MicroPDP-11 was the memory used.
QBUS = 11/73
PMI = 11/83

Is this correct or not?


No, not really, but sort of.  Originally, the J11 chip was available in 
15MHz and 18MHz versions.  The 15MHz chips were used for 11/73 systems 
and the 18MHz ones for 11/83 systesm.  To emphasise the difference, they 
had slightly different boot ROMs, and the 11/73 systems were shipped 
with QBus memory while the 11/83 systems were shipped with PMI memory, 
which is faster.  So a factory-fresh 11/73 was always 15MHZ + QBus 
memory, whereas a factory-fresh 11/83 was always 18MHz with PMI memory, 
and significantly faster.  In fact the PDP-11 and Hardware Help lists on 
DECUServe were full of people discussing the difference as many people 
didn't believe that you could use PMI memory with the processor from an 
11/73 (you can), while others insisted that if you changed the memory an 
11/73 became exactly an 11/83.  In fact the XXDP diagnostics and RT-11 
differentiate 11/73 from 11/83 purely on the basis of PMI memory detection.


The J11 chip used on those systems was supposed to run at 20MHz or so 
from day one, but it didn't quite make it.  Some, especially early on, 
would only run fully reliably at 15MHz, hence the above.  I've got a 
later one in an 11/83 running at 20MHz, though.  It doesn't gain an 
awful lot, but I changed the crystal, just because I could.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 1/12/19 1:13 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
> On 1/12/19 11:39 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> On 1/12/19 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
>>> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>
 I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in
 either a BA23 or a BA123.  I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for
 my /23+.
>>> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23
>>> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down 11/53
>>> were as well.  But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen were in
>>> BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - I've got one.
>>>
>> One confusing part of this.  Everything I have read today
>> seems to say that the only difference between the 11/73
>> and the 11/83 in a MicroPDP-11 was the memory used.
>> QBUS = 11/73
>> PMI = 11/83
>>
> I use this guide in general - 
> http://web.frainresearch.org:8080/projects/pdp-11/dcj11.php to 
> understand the key differences in DEC DCJ11 implementations. You can see 
> how the clock speed, caching and memory type drove differences in 
> performance and marketing labels.
> 
> The 11/83 (M8190-AD or AE) with Non-PMI memory is just a slow 11/83 in 
> my view. I know RT11 did report it as an 11/73.   It could be that from 
> a software perspective, RT11 might not be possible to determine the 
> actual module in use.

I always thought it was an 11/73.  It wasn't until the last few days
that I saw the difference mentioned.  It works fine as an 11/73 and
having PMI memory and making it an 11/83 would just be for fun anyway.
I have run Ultrix-11 on 11/73's with no real problems.

> 
> Does the 2MB 11/93 not work with and extra 2Mb of QBUS Non-PMI memory?  
> I would have thought the upper 2MB would still be addressable, if for 
> nothing else than for compatibility memory mapped display controllers 
> and such.

I had tried it and, no, it didn't work.  I then had people tell me
it wouldn't.  I have also been told the only way to upgrade is to
add the missing memory onto the CPU board.  I find that hard to
believe, but I suppose it is possible.  I am not sure I could do
that upgrade as some of the chips are surface mount.  Not that it
matters as a search could not turn up any supply for those particular
memory chips.  But, if I came up with a 2 meg or pair of 1 meg PMI
boards I would definitely try it.  :-)  Just like the 11/73|11/83
deal.  If a 4 meg PMI card fell in my lap I would definitely try
it to see if there was a difference.  Matter of fact, I would likely
find some benchmarks I could run under Ultrix-11 and see what the
actual difference was.  But, it's all academic cause I really don't
see any PMI memory falling from the sky and I haven't seen any pigs
fly by lately.  :-)

bill




Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Jerry Weiss via cctalk

On 1/12/19 11:39 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

On 1/12/19 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:

On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:


I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in
either a BA23 or a BA123.  I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for
my /23+.

I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23
boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down 11/53
were as well.  But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen were in
BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - I've got one.


One confusing part of this.  Everything I have read today
seems to say that the only difference between the 11/73
and the 11/83 in a MicroPDP-11 was the memory used.
QBUS = 11/73
PMI = 11/83

I use this guide in general - 
http://web.frainresearch.org:8080/projects/pdp-11/dcj11.php to 
understand the key differences in DEC DCJ11 implementations. You can see 
how the clock speed, caching and memory type drove differences in 
performance and marketing labels.


The 11/83 (M8190-AD or AE) with Non-PMI memory is just a slow 11/83 in 
my view. I know RT11 did report it as an 11/73.   It could be that from 
a software perspective, RT11 might not be possible to determine the 
actual module in use.


Does the 2MB 11/93 not work with and extra 2Mb of QBUS Non-PMI memory?  
I would have thought the upper 2MB would still be addressable, if for 
nothing else than for compatibility memory mapped display controllers 
and such.


   Jerry










Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Jerry Weiss via cctalk

On 1/12/19 11:31 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

On 1/12/19 9:20 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


Well, the problem is definitely bus grant as with just two memory
cards in the machine I put the disk controller in and it does not
show up in the Map.  The only problem with this is the question
Why?  I  have examined the memory cards.  The C-D (actually, C)
does have the bus grant lines connected.  I even looked under a
magnifier to be sure the trace hadn't been cut and it is intact.
So, what else cold cause this?

(Another question, however, some cards have the ability to open
this.  Why would you ever do that as it would break pretty much
any card that followed?)

Problem fixed.  Note, fixed, not solved.

I dug out another MicroPDP BA23 box.  Stuck the CPU in slot 1.
Started adding the memory cards one at a time and turning the
machine on  waiting for the self-test and then doing a MAP.
Worked perfectly.  The self test got slower as each memory
card was added and the map showed the block of memory and the
assigned CSR.

Congrats on getting this part of the problem resolved.

So, what could go bad on a backplane to cause this problem?
Or, could it be a power supply that is no longer delivering
the rated power?


If you haven't already, check the backplane slots for debris or corrosion on 
the contacts.

Next with a voltmeter check the +5V and +12V first to see if the actual 
voltages are within spec.  If you have an oscilloscope, checking for excess 
voltage ripple.  If the power supplies have are using the original capacitors 
they might not be providing clean power under significant load.

  Jerry


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 1/12/19 12:29 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in 
>> either a BA23 or a BA123.  I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for 
>> my /23+.
> 
> I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 
> boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down 11/53 
> were as well.  But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen were in 
> BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - I've got one.
> 

One confusing part of this.  Everything I have read today
seems to say that the only difference between the 11/73
and the 11/83 in a MicroPDP-11 was the memory used.
QBUS = 11/73
PMI = 11/83

Is this correct or not?

bill



Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 1/12/19 12:24 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/01/2019 23:58, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 3:51 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
>>  wrote:
>>> Mine are all BA23.  Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX?
>>
>> As sold, most likely.  I don't think DEC ever configured any MicroPDP
>> systems in a BA123 but no reason it doesn't work.
> 
> Absolutely not so - there were very many microPDP-11/83 systems sold in 
> BA123 cabinets, in fact probably more in BA123 than in BA23.  The 
> MicroPDP-11 System Maintenance Manual features the BA123 heavily 
> throughout, as do other microPDP-11 manuals.
> 

None of my MicroPDP-11 manuals show anything but the BA23. Most
show the install as being in a deskside pedestal.  But even the
one that shows rack mount installation is only BA23.

bill



Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Pete Turnbull via cctalk

On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:


I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in either a BA23 
or a BA123.  I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for my /23+.


I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 
boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down 11/53 
were as well.  But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen were in 
BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - I've got one.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Pete Turnbull via cctalk

On 11/01/2019 23:58, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 3:51 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
 wrote:

Mine are all BA23.  Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX?


As sold, most likely.  I don't think DEC ever configured any MicroPDP
systems in a BA123 but no reason it doesn't work.


Absolutely not so - there were very many microPDP-11/83 systems sold in 
BA123 cabinets, in fact probably more in BA123 than in BA23.  The 
MicroPDP-11 System Maintenance Manual features the BA123 heavily 
throughout, as do other microPDP-11 manuals.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 1/12/19 9:20 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> Well, the problem is definitely bus grant as with just two memory
> cards in the machine I put the disk controller in and it does not
> show up in the Map.  The only problem with this is the question
> Why?  I  have examined the memory cards.  The C-D (actually, C)
> does have the bus grant lines connected.  I even looked under a
> magnifier to be sure the trace hadn't been cut and it is intact.
> So, what else cold cause this?
> 
> (Another question, however, some cards have the ability to open
> this.  Why would you ever do that as it would break pretty much
> any card that followed?)

Problem fixed.  Note, fixed, not solved.

I dug out another MicroPDP BA23 box.  Stuck the CPU in slot 1.
Started adding the memory cards one at a time and turning the
machine on  waiting for the self-test and then doing a MAP.
Worked perfectly.  The self test got slower as each memory
card was added and the map showed the block of memory and the
assigned CSR.

So, what could go bad on a backplane to cause this problem?
Or, could it be a power supply that is no longer delivering
the rated power?

In any event, I, at least now, have two functional systems.
an 11/93 with 2 meg of memory (which might be expandable
with PMI but definitely not with QBUS memory.)  And an
11/73 with 4 meg of QBUS memory which apparently could be
an 11/83 if I had 4 meg of PMI memory.

Anybody got any PMI memory they would be willing to let go? :-)

bill



Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-12 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk


Well, the problem is definitely bus grant as with just two memory
cards in the machine I put the disk controller in and it does not
show up in the Map.  The only problem with this is the question
Why?  I  have examined the memory cards.  The C-D (actually, C)
does have the bus grant lines connected.  I even looked under a
magnifier to be sure the trace hadn't been cut and it is intact.
So, what else cold cause this?

(Another question, however, some cards have the ability to open
this.  Why would you ever do that as it would break pretty much
any card that followed?)

bill



Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Paul Anderson via cctalk
Hi Bill,

I have a bunch of both DEC and compatible memories, and extra CPUs. If you
need anything, contact me off list.

Thanks, Paul

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 12:49 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> Well, I have decided to stop playing with my hardware for a while and
> get  back to playing with software.  :-)
>
> In order to do this I am building three (maybe four)
> PDP-11's.  I have an 11/93, an 11/73 and an 11/23+
> (and maybe another 11/23 or 11/73).  BUt, I have run
> into a small problem.  Memory. (both the systems and
> me!)
>
> My 11/93 has 2 meg internal and I would like to bring
> it up to 4 meg.  The others I would like to see with
> 4 meg if possible. (except the last one which I may
> deliberately keep at 128KW.)
>
> I have a number of different memory modules.  Mostly
> DEC but a couple third party.  Here's the problem.
> None of them are reflected in any of the documentation
> I have been able to find so I can't configure them away
> from their defaults!
>
> Here's a list of numbers:
>
> M7551-AC  - All the docs I can find seem to refer to
>  AA or AB and jumpers and switches are not
>  in the same locations.
>
> M8067-LB
> M8067-LF
> M8067-LJ  - Same problem.  I can find no documentation
>  for any -L boards and these don't even resemble
>  the pictures I find.
>
> And then I have two non-DEC module that are unlikely to
> have any documentation still floating around for.
>
> Camintonn  CMV-1000  --  As funny as it sounds, this one
>   looks  more like a DEC MSV11-QA
>   then the DEC ones do, but not exactly.
>
> And one who's maker is only identified by a logo that
> looks like 2 interlaced stylized S's.  Model Number
> is: 980110014-201 Rev E.
>
> Anybody got any pointers to help me configure some of this stuff?
>
> bill
>


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Warner Losh via cctalk
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 6:24 PM Zane Healy via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> > On Jan 11, 2019, at 4:55 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 7:11 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk
> >  wrote:
> >> It’s going back severalteen years now but I’m pretty sure I built a
> Micro 73 into a BA123, it’s a CD22 backplane after all. I still have all
> the cards AND the BA123 but I’m supposed to be turning it back into the
> MVII it was originally, back in 1986 when it was called FRUIT.
> >
> > It will definitely work, but I just wasn't sure about what types of
> > CPUs _DEC_ stuffed into a BA123 and sold out the front door.
> >
> > -ethan
>
> My /73 was originally a MicroVAX II at Tektronix.  After I got it, I
> turned it into a PDP-11 after getting a VAXstation 3100.
>
> I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in either a
> BA23 or a BA123.  I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for my /23+.
>

Not sure about the /53, but I've seen /73s and /83s in BA23 for sure, and a
/83s in BA123. Our VAXstation II was in a BA23 we converted to rack mount,
and I've seen lots of MicroVAX IIs in BA123 cases.

Warner


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Zane Healy via cctalk


> On Jan 11, 2019, at 4:55 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 7:11 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk
>  wrote:
>> It’s going back severalteen years now but I’m pretty sure I built a Micro 73 
>> into a BA123, it’s a CD22 backplane after all. I still have all the cards 
>> AND the BA123 but I’m supposed to be turning it back into the MVII it was 
>> originally, back in 1986 when it was called FRUIT.
> 
> It will definitely work, but I just wasn't sure about what types of
> CPUs _DEC_ stuffed into a BA123 and sold out the front door.
> 
> -ethan

My /73 was originally a MicroVAX II at Tektronix.  After I got it, I turned it 
into a PDP-11 after getting a VAXstation 3100.

I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in either a BA23 
or a BA123.  I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for my /23+.

Zane




Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Ethan Dicks via cctalk
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 7:11 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk
 wrote:
> It’s going back severalteen years now but I’m pretty sure I built a Micro 73 
> into a BA123, it’s a CD22 backplane after all. I still have all the cards AND 
> the BA123 but I’m supposed to be turning it back into the MVII it was 
> originally, back in 1986 when it was called FRUIT.

It will definitely work, but I just wasn't sure about what types of
CPUs _DEC_ stuffed into a BA123 and sold out the front door.

-ethan


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Adrian Graham via cctalk


> On 11 Jan 2019, at 23:59, Ethan Dicks via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 4:39 PM Pete Turnbull via cctalk
>  wrote:
>>> Mine are all BA23.  Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX?
>> 
>> No, it was introduced for the microPDP-11 series, and only later used
>> for MicroVAX and MicroVAX-II.  There are many microPDP-11/83 machines in
>> BA123 cabinets, it was a very popular option because of the space for
>> storage devices and the extra backplane slots.
> 
> Hmm... I did not know they put the 11/83 in a BA123.  It makes sense
> since, as you say, there's room for storage devices and plenty of
> slots.


It’s going back severalteen years now but I’m pretty sure I built a Micro 73 
into a BA123, it’s a CD22 backplane after all. I still have all the cards AND 
the BA123 but I’m supposed to be turning it back into the MVII it was 
originally, back in 1986 when it was called FRUIT. 

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection?
t: @binarydinosaursf: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk






Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Ethan Dicks via cctalk
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 4:39 PM Pete Turnbull via cctalk
 wrote:
> > Mine are all BA23.  Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX?
>
> No, it was introduced for the microPDP-11 series, and only later used
> for MicroVAX and MicroVAX-II.  There are many microPDP-11/83 machines in
> BA123 cabinets, it was a very popular option because of the space for
> storage devices and the extra backplane slots.

Hmm... I did not know they put the 11/83 in a BA123.  It makes sense
since, as you say, there's room for storage devices and plenty of
slots.

The first BA123 system I ever saw was a KA630/uVAX-II in 1986.  We put
Ultrix T-2.0 on it and ran it for several years.

-ethan


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Ethan Dicks via cctalk
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 3:51 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
 wrote:
> Mine are all BA23.  Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX?

As sold, most likely.  I don't think DEC ever configured any MicroPDP
systems in a BA123 but no reason it doesn't work.

I got an empty BA123 a while back and when I get a nice KDJ11 board,
I'll load it up.  I already have a KA610 and KA630 in BA23 boxes.

-ethan


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Pete Turnbull via cctalk

On 11/01/2019 20:51, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


Listed what I'm using in the beginning of this thread.
Just CPU and Memory at this point.


OK, I didn't see that - sorry.


BTW, BA23 and BA123 microPDP-11 backplanes aren't the same - it's the
first 4 slots that differ in a BA123, and slot 13 is different again.
Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis



Mine are all BA23.  Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX?


No, it was introduced for the microPDP-11 series, and only later used 
for MicroVAX and MicroVAX-II.  There are many microPDP-11/83 machines in 
BA123 cabinets, it was a very popular option because of the space for 
storage devices and the extra backplane slots.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 1/11/19 3:24 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 01/11/2019 02:32 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>>  > From: Allison Parent
>>
>>  > Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken.
>>
>> The only -11 that complains if the grant chain is broken that I know of is
>> the /34 (maybe the /04 too). I certainly have a QBUS chassis right next to my
>> workstation here that i) has a bunch of empty slots, and ii) works fine, as
>> long as there are no empty slots between the CPU and the devices.
> I'm far from a newby to Qbus 11s as I stated with LSI-11 nearly 4
> decades ago

Me too.  :-)  I  have had them in my house for more than two decades.
No more UNIBUS (but I really miss  my 11/24 which was my first personal
PDP-11).

> and I ahve all Qbus models of note from LSI-11(quad), 11/2 (dual) ,
> 11/23(dual)
> 11/23(quad), 11/23B(quad), 11/73(dual) in various BA11VA,  BA-11s, BA11N,
> BA23, BA123, and also microVAXII in BA23 and BA123.  Which covers about
> eight different Qbus backplane variations not including the Heath H11 and a
> engineering one off (8 slot dual width with bigger supply sorta like
> taller a
> BA11VA 4 slot.  Small advantage to being a Millrat.   I forgo most
> non-Qbus 11s
> to specialize.

I have so many different backplanes I have to look them up every time
I pull a different system out.  But I have been playing with the
hardware for a while so none of them were "official" configurations.
Or stable configurations as I kept changing them.

But, now I need to build a few stable, supported systems so I can
play with some software.

> 
> All of my 11s are Qbus and yes they complain if the interrupt grant
> chain is broken.
> Missing CSR is the usual complaint.

That's interesting.  All I ever saw from a missing bus grant was
a dead machine where the CPU wouldn't even run.  Going to have to
review it, but as I said earlier a quick glance at the memory cards
shows bus grant pins connected with a trace.

> 
> Typical micorpdp-11 Qbus is:
> 
> First three slots after CPU the CD slots are open use, or be used or
> memory private bus.

Are you sure?  My Pocket Service Guide confirms what I said.
First three slots A-B-C-D all the rest serpentine A-B.

> ABCD CPU
> ABCD  where CD is memory wired not bus
> ABCD
> ABCD  up to this slot memory does not have to grant interrupts on the
> right (CD)side of quad cards
> ABAB  All cards dual or quad must have int grant jumper of the board or
> grant card.
> ABAB
> ABAB
> ABAB
> 
>> Also, IIRC he said it works with 3 cards plugged in, but not 4; how can
>> plugging a card _in_ cause grant problems?

He is right here.  The third memory card in in a pair of A-B slots.
The first serpentine.  The fourth memory card would be in the next
A-B pair but o n the revers of the serpentine.  S, actually there
are two A-B slots between them that need bus grant.  Now I need
to figure out why the bus grand is not going thru.

> See the above...  Qbus is can or cannot be uniform for quad or dual
> width cards.
> For most only bus slots that are AB bussed are data/address.  But they
> can be
> serpentine for quad wide systems and most quad wide board have interrupt
> grant jumpers on the board or are just hardwired that way.
> 
> Qbus is not Unibus.  You can build a Qbus system of all dual width
> cards, some
> Qbus system memory uses PMI.
> 
> For example I have an 11/23b+ in a quad width BA11-N but the backplane is
> nonstandard ,18 slots of Q22 ABAB (serpentine wired).  It has  a quad
> width 11/23B
> and 8 MSV11 256KB dual width Q22 memory. RQDX3 dual width, RXV21 RX02,
> DRV11J and a M7555 (also found in MicroVAXII in BA123 boxes, takes the
> 50pin
> wide RQDX breaks it out for multiple RX33 floppy and RD32 drives).
> 
> There are many Qbus  backplanes  and several different configurations for
> DUAL/QUAD mixes of cards.  The Microvax Qbus backplanes also fit in that
> realm such as BA123 with J11 cpus installed and PMI ram.  Also many of the
> Qbus can be Q16(not many), Q18(fairly common) and Q22(only late and
> MicroVax) address bus width.
> 
> The microcomputers handbook is a start and the modules manuals.
> Typically you need a 1980 version and a later 80s versions.  Also the
> LSI-11 Systems Service Manual Volumes 1 and 2.  Generally the more
> docs you have for Qbus 11 systems and the MicroVAX kin the less pain
> you will have configuring them especially for non standard configurations
> or systems with mix and match boards.

My documentation is very limited and my memory isn't what it used
to be.  But this seems like a problem that should not be there.
At least it gives me something to do now that it is too cold to
go outside.

Nothing worse than being this cold and the slopes have no snow
on them.  :-)

bill




Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread allison via cctalk
On 01/11/2019 02:55 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> On 1/11/19 2:25 PM, Allison Parent via cctalk wrote:
>> Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken.  For most microspheres 
>> backplanes the first three slots are different than remaining.
> Yes, that's true.  But the problem doesn't occur until the 5th slot.
> And a quick look at the C-D edges of the board shows that the BUS
> Grant lines are jumpered. So the 2 A-B slots should pass the grants
> just fine. I saw  no mention about these not working in A-B/A-B
> backplanes.  The only mention the docs make at all is that the
> only lines used on C-D slots is power.
>
> bill
>
That is generally true... however there were more than a few odd backplanes
including a few that were wired for Core and some design to suit a
different
memory and incompatible (smoke releasing!).  Others are unique as the RL11
two board set require a CD backplane slot pair (will not work if ABAB).

You need to look at the backplane and find out what one it is.

I have a few boxes I got without a backplane at all and as a result they
have
what I find was most useful and very non standard.

The CSR complaint is because if you talk to the board and don't get a
int vector
or can't set a working one (floating)  the CSR is broke.  This is a
behavior that
is much different from unibus.  It also happens if an expected CSR is
non standard
for nominal drivers.  An example is my 11/73 as it has 2 RQDX3 so one
has to be
at a new and unusual CSR same for the second DLV11J serial.  Some memory
(parity or ECC) also have CSRs and if they interupt and the drive is not
there
I've heard havoc ensues (of all my memory on hand none have that).

Irs a side effect of the Q bus starting in the 70s (LSI-11) and
continuing with
some evolution though the 90s (11/83 and 11/9x).

Allison



Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Pete Turnbull via cctalk

On 11/01/2019 19:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


MicroPDP box has first three slots A-B-C-D to support PMI
memory and the rest are serpentine A-B.

Even giving a bus grant problem, I can't see that causing a CSR
error.  I will probably have to dig out another box this weekend
just to be sure there isn't a problem with the backplane.


Without knowing exactly what cards you've got in there, it's hard to 
tell.  There are quad-height cards that work only in straight (A.B.C.D) 
backplanes/slots, and quad cards that work in either straight or 
serpentine. There are cards that use or expect (or won't permit) certain 
signals on some pins which work fine in 18-bit backplanes but not 
22-bit.  There are things that will work in a BA11-S with H9276 
backplane (which is what you had, if it really was a PDP-11/23plus) but 
not a BA23.  You probably need to make a list of what you're using and 
check through the relevant Micronotes about compatibility.


BTW, BA23 and BA123 microPDP-11 backplanes aren't the same - it's the 
first 4 slots that differ in a BA123, and slot 13 is different again. 
Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Jerry Weiss via cctalk

On 1/11/19 11:28 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

Well, it has been so long since I had to put together an
entire system I forgot what fun it can be.

With almost documentation I was able to configure 4 1meg
memory modules and I tested them all in my 11/23+ box.


KDJ11-B with 4 different (but similar) memory cards.
"MAP" option of the KDJ11 shows 4 meg (minus the I/O
Page) and all the right CSR's for the first four blocks.

Really wanted to make this a deskside so I moved the
cards to a MicroPDP box (Yes, I have a coule of the
deskside pedestals).  Power on, Memory CSR error.
Move then back to the 11/23+ works fine.  If I only
put the first three in the MicroPDP box it works.
But as soon as I try to put in a fourth module I
get the memory CSR error.  Tried different cards
(although working in the 11/23+ box would make me
think it is not a problem with the card) no help.

Anybody care to take a stab at what might be causing
this problem?
1) You might want to check your power supply loading.   You have a lot 
of memory of chips to feed.   The H7864 output at +5V is 36 amps.  
Between the KDJ11-B and 4 memory boards you may be using between 20-25 
amps. Add a  disk controller, disk drive and any other Q-bus devices 
might bring you close to the limits for either +5V or +12V from an aging 
supply.


2) Are the CSR addresses between 17772100-06?  Have you tried to move 
them above this range just to see if the behavior changes?


  Jerry



Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread allison via cctalk
On 01/11/2019 02:32 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> > From: Allison Parent
>
> > Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken.
>
> The only -11 that complains if the grant chain is broken that I know of is
> the /34 (maybe the /04 too). I certainly have a QBUS chassis right next to my
> workstation here that i) has a bunch of empty slots, and ii) works fine, as
> long as there are no empty slots between the CPU and the devices.
I'm far from a newby to Qbus 11s as I stated with LSI-11 nearly 4
decades ago
and I ahve all Qbus models of note from LSI-11(quad), 11/2 (dual) ,
11/23(dual)
11/23(quad), 11/23B(quad), 11/73(dual) in various BA11VA,  BA-11s, BA11N,
BA23, BA123, and also microVAXII in BA23 and BA123.  Which covers about
eight different Qbus backplane variations not including the Heath H11 and a
engineering one off (8 slot dual width with bigger supply sorta like
taller a
BA11VA 4 slot.  Small advantage to being a Millrat.   I forgo most
non-Qbus 11s
to specialize.

All of my 11s are Qbus and yes they complain if the interrupt grant
chain is broken.
Missing CSR is the usual complaint.

Typical micorpdp-11 Qbus is:

First three slots after CPU the CD slots are open use, or be used or
memory private bus.
ABCD CPU
ABCD  where CD is memory wired not bus
ABCD
ABCD  up to this slot memory does not have to grant interrupts on the
right (CD)side of quad cards
ABAB  All cards dual or quad must have int grant jumper of the board or
grant card.
ABAB
ABAB
ABAB

> Also, IIRC he said it works with 3 cards plugged in, but not 4; how can
> plugging a card _in_ cause grant problems?
See the above...  Qbus is can or cannot be uniform for quad or dual
width cards.
For most only bus slots that are AB bussed are data/address.  But they
can be
serpentine for quad wide systems and most quad wide board have interrupt
grant jumpers on the board or are just hardwired that way.

Qbus is not Unibus.  You can build a Qbus system of all dual width
cards, some
Qbus system memory uses PMI. 

For example I have an 11/23b+ in a quad width BA11-N but the backplane is
nonstandard ,18 slots of Q22 ABAB (serpentine wired).  It has  a quad
width 11/23B
and 8 MSV11 256KB dual width Q22 memory. RQDX3 dual width, RXV21 RX02,
DRV11J and a M7555 (also found in MicroVAXII in BA123 boxes, takes the
50pin
wide RQDX breaks it out for multiple RX33 floppy and RD32 drives).

There are many Qbus  backplanes  and several different configurations for
DUAL/QUAD mixes of cards.  The Microvax Qbus backplanes also fit in that
realm such as BA123 with J11 cpus installed and PMI ram.  Also many of the
Qbus can be Q16(not many), Q18(fairly common) and Q22(only late and
MicroVax) address bus width.

The microcomputers handbook is a start and the modules manuals.
Typically you need a 1980 version and a later 80s versions.  Also the
LSI-11 Systems Service Manual Volumes 1 and 2.  Generally the more
docs you have for Qbus 11 systems and the MicroVAX kin the less pain
you will have configuring them especially for non standard configurations
or systems with mix and match boards.


Allison




Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 1/11/19 2:32 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>  > From: Allison Parent
> 
>  > Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken.
> 
> The only -11 that complains if the grant chain is broken that I know of is
> the /34 (maybe the /04 too). I certainly have a QBUS chassis right next to my
> workstation here that i) has a bunch of empty slots, and ii) works fine, as
> long as there are no empty slots between the CPU and the devices.
> 
> Also, IIRC he said it works with 3 cards plugged in, but not 4; how can
> plugging a card _in_ cause grant problems?
> 
>  > For most microspheres backplanes the first three slots are different
>  > than remaining.
> 
> That might be worth checking into. I'm not familiar with the second box
> he's using, so can't help there.

MicroPDP box has first three slots A-B-C-D to support PMI
memory and the rest are serpentine A-B.

Even giving a bus grant problem, I can't see that causing a CSR
error.  I will probably have to dig out another box this weekend
just to be sure there isn't a problem with the backplane.


bill



Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 1/11/19 2:25 PM, Allison Parent via cctalk wrote:
> Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken.  For most microspheres 
> backplanes the first three slots are different than remaining.

Yes, that's true.  But the problem doesn't occur until the 5th slot.
And a quick look at the C-D edges of the board shows that the BUS
Grant lines are jumpered. So the 2 A-B slots should pass the grants
just fine. I saw  no mention about these not working in A-B/A-B
backplanes.  The only mention the docs make at all is that the
only lines used on C-D slots is power.

bill



> 
> 
> Phoned this in!
> 
> 
> On Jan 11, 2019, at 12:28 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Well, it has been so long since I had to put together an
> entire system I forgot what fun it can be.
> 
> With almost documentation I was able to configure 4 1meg
> memory modules and I tested them all in my 11/23+ box.
> 
> 
> KDJ11-B with 4 different (but similar) memory cards.
> "MAP" option of the KDJ11 shows 4 meg (minus the I/O
> Page) and all the right CSR's for the first four blocks.
> 
> Really wanted to make this a deskside so I moved the
> cards to a MicroPDP box (Yes, I have a coule of the
> deskside pedestals).  Power on, Memory CSR error.
> Move then back to the 11/23+ works fine.  If I only
> put the first three in the MicroPDP box it works.
> But as soon as I try to put in a fourth module I
> get the memory CSR error.  Tried different cards
> (although working in the 11/23+ box would make me
> think it is not a problem with the card) no help.
> 
> Anybody care to take a stab at what might be causing
> this problem?
> 
> bill
> 



Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Noel Chiappa via cctalk
> From: Allison Parent

> Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken.

The only -11 that complains if the grant chain is broken that I know of is
the /34 (maybe the /04 too). I certainly have a QBUS chassis right next to my
workstation here that i) has a bunch of empty slots, and ii) works fine, as
long as there are no empty slots between the CPU and the devices.

Also, IIRC he said it works with 3 cards plugged in, but not 4; how can
plugging a card _in_ cause grant problems?

> For most microspheres backplanes the first three slots are different
> than remaining.

That might be worth checking into. I'm not familiar with the second box
he's using, so can't help there.

Noel


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Allison Parent via cctalk
Most Probable cause is interrupt grant is broken.  For most microspheres 
backplanes the first three slots are different than remaining.


Phoned this in!


On Jan 11, 2019, at 12:28 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
 wrote:


Well, it has been so long since I had to put together an
entire system I forgot what fun it can be.

With almost documentation I was able to configure 4 1meg
memory modules and I tested them all in my 11/23+ box.


KDJ11-B with 4 different (but similar) memory cards.
"MAP" option of the KDJ11 shows 4 meg (minus the I/O
Page) and all the right CSR's for the first four blocks.

Really wanted to make this a deskside so I moved the
cards to a MicroPDP box (Yes, I have a coule of the
deskside pedestals).  Power on, Memory CSR error.
Move then back to the 11/23+ works fine.  If I only
put the first three in the MicroPDP box it works.
But as soon as I try to put in a fourth module I
get the memory CSR error.  Tried different cards
(although working in the 11/23+ box would make me
think it is not a problem with the card) no help.

Anybody care to take a stab at what might be causing
this problem?

bill


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-11 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk

Well, it has been so long since I had to put together an
entire system I forgot what fun it can be.

With almost documentation I was able to configure 4 1meg
memory modules and I tested them all in my 11/23+ box.


KDJ11-B with 4 different (but similar) memory cards.
"MAP" option of the KDJ11 shows 4 meg (minus the I/O
Page) and all the right CSR's for the first four blocks.

Really wanted to make this a deskside so I moved the
cards to a MicroPDP box (Yes, I have a coule of the
deskside pedestals).  Power on, Memory CSR error.
Move then back to the 11/23+ works fine.  If I only
put the first three in the MicroPDP box it works.
But as soon as I try to put in a fourth module I
get the memory CSR error.  Tried different cards
(although working in the 11/23+ box would make me
think it is not a problem with the card) no help.

Anybody care to take a stab at what might be causing
this problem?

bill


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-09 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 1/9/19 2:28 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:
> 
> As far as I know about the 11/93 (or 11/94), all memory is on the CPU module.
> The 11/9[3|4] is sort-of an 11/8[3|4] with all (PMI) memory on the CPU module 
> as the cache on the 8[3|4].
> 
> The 11/9[3|4] with 2 MB RAM can only be upgraded to 4 MB by adding RAM chips 
> on the CPU module.
> However, all holes are filled with solder, so this upgrade is quite a lot of 
> work.
> 

I was beginning to suspect as much as my attempts got nowhere.

My board has two empty spots with holes filled with solder.
That is not really a problem as I have a professional solder
sucker.  :-)  I assume these might have to do with addressing.
Then there are four that I suspect are the memory chips and
they are surface mount.  Not so sure I want to delve into
that as my eyes aren't what they used to be.  I guess the
first step would be to see if the chips are even available.

bill



RE: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-09 Thread Henk Gooijen via cctalk


As far as I know about the 11/93 (or 11/94), all memory is on the CPU module.
The 11/9[3|4] is sort-of an 11/8[3|4] with all (PMI) memory on the CPU module 
as the cache on the 8[3|4].

The 11/9[3|4] with 2 MB RAM can only be upgraded to 4 MB by adding RAM chips on 
the CPU module.
However, all holes are filled with solder, so this upgrade is quite a lot of 
work.

Henk


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-09 Thread Noel Chiappa via cctalk
> From: Bill Gunshannon

> I have a number of different memory modules. Mostly DEC but a couple
> zthird party. Here's the problem. None of them are reflected in any of
> the documentation I have been able to find so I can't configure them
> away from their defaults! ...
> Anybody got any pointers to help me configure some of this stuff?

> M7551-AC  - All the docs I can find seem to refer to
> AA or AB and jumpers and switches are not
> in the same locations.

You've looked in EK-MSV1Q-UG-002, right? That seems to cover a couple of
different revisions.

> M8067-LB
> M8067-LF
> M8067-LJ  - Same problem.  I can find no documentation for any -L
>  boards and these don't even resemble the pictures I find.

The M8067-L variants are all MSV11-PL (512-Kbyte QBUS MOS memory). The
last letter usually indicates the vendor of the MOS chips used.

> And then I have two non-DEC module that are unlikely to
> have any documentation still floating around for.
> Camintonn  CMV-1000

I too couldn't find any documentatin for this; there is the 'SMS 1000
Microcomputer System OEM Manual', which says how to configure one for a base
configuration. I started to work out what the configuration switches do, by
experiment, but I got distracted before I finished. I have found my notes
from this exercise, and can send them to you if they are of any use.

Noel


Re: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-09 Thread Jerry Weiss via cctalk

On 1/9/19 12:49 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


And then I have two non-DEC module that are unlikely to
have any documentation still floating around for.

Camintonn  CMV-1000  --  As funny as it sounds, this one
   looks  more like a DEC MSV11-QA
   then the DEC ones do, but not exactly.

And one who's maker is only identified by a logo that
looks like 2 interlaced stylized S's.  Model Number
is: 980110014-201 Rev E.

Anybody got any pointers to help me configure some of this stuff?

bill


See http://gunkies.org/wiki/CMV-4000 or 
http://web.frainresearch.org:8080/projects/pdp-11/cam.php

for basic configuration help on the Camintonn Board.

For the M8067-Lx try EK-MSV0P-UG-001_MSV11P_Aug81.pdf.  I believe the 
variants are different memory chip vendors.


980110014 is probably a National Semi NS23S


   Jerry



RE: PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-09 Thread Paul Birkel via cctalk
-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill 
Gunshannon via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 1:49 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: PDP-11 Memory

...

M8067-LB
M8067-LF
M8067-LJ  - Same problem.  I can find no documentation
 for any -L boards and these don't even resemble
 the pictures I find.

...
Anybody got any pointers to help me configure some of this stuff?

Bill

-

M8067-L ==> EK-MSV0P-UG-001 MSV11-P User Guide.pdf - Bitsavers

-
paul



PDP-11 Memory

2019-01-09 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk

Well, I have decided to stop playing with my hardware for a while and
get  back to playing with software.  :-)

In order to do this I am building three (maybe four)
PDP-11's.  I have an 11/93, an 11/73 and an 11/23+
(and maybe another 11/23 or 11/73).  BUt, I have run
into a small problem.  Memory. (both the systems and
me!)

My 11/93 has 2 meg internal and I would like to bring
it up to 4 meg.  The others I would like to see with
4 meg if possible. (except the last one which I may
deliberately keep at 128KW.)

I have a number of different memory modules.  Mostly
DEC but a couple third party.  Here's the problem.
None of them are reflected in any of the documentation
I have been able to find so I can't configure them away
from their defaults!

Here's a list of numbers:

M7551-AC  - All the docs I can find seem to refer to
 AA or AB and jumpers and switches are not
 in the same locations.

M8067-LB
M8067-LF
M8067-LJ  - Same problem.  I can find no documentation
 for any -L boards and these don't even resemble
 the pictures I find.

And then I have two non-DEC module that are unlikely to
have any documentation still floating around for.

Camintonn  CMV-1000  --  As funny as it sounds, this one
  looks  more like a DEC MSV11-QA
  then the DEC ones do, but not exactly.

And one who's maker is only identified by a logo that
looks like 2 interlaced stylized S's.  Model Number
is: 980110014-201 Rev E.

Anybody got any pointers to help me configure some of this stuff?

bill