Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-20 Thread Glen Slick via cctalk
After spending way to much time on this today, I verified that at least on the CMD CQD Q-Bus SCSI controller versions that I have if I wanted the CMD CQD controller to report an MSCP disk size of exactly 891072 blocks to match the SIMH emulated RA81 disk size, I had to soft resize the capacity of

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-20 Thread Jerry Weiss via cctalk
On 2/20/19 1:25 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 2:24 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Theoretically, the SIMH emulated RA81 and the CMD emulated real disk RA81 should be the same size because they are both supposed to be RA81's. I spent the time to get set up and

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-20 Thread Glen Slick via cctalk
On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 2:24 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Theoretically, the SIMH emulated RA81 and the CMD emulated real > disk RA81 should be the same size because they are both supposed > to be RA81's. I spent the time to get set up and verified that this assumption is not

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-20 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 20, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > No, that's not what the symptoms say. If you were dealing with geometry > confusion, you'd fail much earlier. For example, if you were to take a RSTS > system built on an RP06, and image-copied it to an RM05, it

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-20 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 20, 2019, at 1:43 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk > wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 9:21 AM Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 8:57 AM Charles Anthony via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> However, in the original posters case, the SIMH disk image is being >>

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-20 Thread Charles Anthony via cctalk
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 9:21 AM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 8:57 AM Charles Anthony via cctalk > wrote: > > > > However, in the original posters case, the SIMH disk image is being > copied > > to the RA81 drive without the benefit of the MSCP controller (if I > >

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-20 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 20, 2019, at 11:57 AM, Charles Anthony > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 5:38 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > > You're misinterpreting "spare". MSCP exposes the user address space as > contiguous LBAs, for which it uses 51 sectors per track. The spare sector is > used to

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-20 Thread Glen Slick via cctalk
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 8:57 AM Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > > However, in the original posters case, the SIMH disk image is being copied > to the RA81 drive without the benefit of the MSCP controller (if I > understand correctly). This would lead to track misalignment and could > result

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-20 Thread Charles Anthony via cctalk
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 5:38 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > > You're misinterpreting "spare". MSCP exposes the user address space as > contiguous LBAs, for which it uses 51 sectors per track. The spare sector > is used to do bad sector replacement. That is invisible to users, it > doesn't affect

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-20 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 19, 2019, at 11:55 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 1:20 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I have a CQD=220A/MT configured for 6 disks and one tape. >> As for disk types, you can toggle RA ON or OFF on each drive. >> You can specify one RA

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-20 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 19, 2019, at 10:26 PM, Charles Anthony > wrote: > > > > On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 10:14 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > ... >> So indeed the correct sector count is 51 (the other one is a spare, a >> technique used by DEC as far back as the RM80). >> > > I am concerned that the spare

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-19 Thread Glen Slick via cctalk
On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 1:20 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > I have a CQD=220A/MT configured for 6 disks and one tape. > As for disk types, you can toggle RA ON or OFF on each drive. > You can specify one RA type that will be in effect for any > disk with RA ON. Types are: RA70, RA80,

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-19 Thread Charles Anthony via cctalk
On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 10:14 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Feb 19, 2019, at 11:51 AM, Charles Anthony < > charles.unix@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > ... > > Presumably SIMH is returning RA81_LBN (891072) as the device size; this > is calculated based on the 51 sectors/track. If the h/w is

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-19 Thread Glen Slick via cctalk
On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 11:22 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > I have mostly used CMD CQD-220/TM controllers. As far as I remember > > they do not have an RA drive emulation option. > > I have a 220A/TM and it certainly does. Pages 4-10 thru 4-15 > of the manual, particularly

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-19 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 2/19/19 12:37 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 5:39 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> >> All sounds like fun, but if the two emulations don't do RA81 >> correctly the information doesn't really do me much good. I >> certainly can't change the CQD's idea of

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-19 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 19, 2019, at 11:51 AM, Charles Anthony > wrote: > > ... > Presumably SIMH is returning RA81_LBN (891072) as the device size; this is > calculated based on the 51 sectors/track. If the h/w is returning a size > based on 52, then there is a mismatch which could be the source of the

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-19 Thread Glen Slick via cctalk
On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 5:39 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > All sounds like fun, but if the two emulations don't do RA81 > correctly the information doesn't really do me much good. I > certainly can't change the CQD's idea of what an RA81 is. > I have mostly used CMD CQD-220/TM

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-19 Thread Charles Anthony via cctalk
On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 6:27 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Feb 18, 2019, at 11:22 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> ... > > Looking at the SIMH code: > > > > /* > >type sec surfcyl tpg gpc RCT LBNs > >RA81 51(+1) 14

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-19 Thread Warner Losh via cctalk
On Tue, Feb 19, 2019, 7:24 AM Paul Koning > > > On Feb 18, 2019, at 10:29 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 6:18 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> ... > >> No, RX50 was a strange DEC format. RX33

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-19 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 18, 2019, at 11:22 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk > wrote: > >> ... > Looking at the SIMH code: > > /* >type sec surfcyl tpg gpc RCT LBNs >RA81 51(+1) 14 125814 1 2856891072 > */ > > #define RA81_SECT 51

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-19 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 18, 2019, at 10:29 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk > wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 6:18 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> ... >> No, RX50 was a strange DEC format. RX33 is a 1.2M floppy. > > The RX50 was a single sided 800 block floppy. The

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-19 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 2/18/19 10:59 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 5:18 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Well, all I really have are CQD module which does MSCP and TMSCP >> over SCSI. > > Do you have any SCSI tape drives? Sure. I have a SCSI 9-track and a 1.4" QIC

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-18 Thread Charles Anthony via cctalk
On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 2:24 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2/18/19 4:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > It would be interesting if you can post the exact sizes in blocks of the > SIMH image, and the real disk you copied it to. That would help confirm my > guess

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-18 Thread Glen Slick via cctalk
On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 5:18 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Well, all I really have are CQD module which does MSCP and TMSCP > over SCSI. Do you have any SCSI tape drives? I have successfully installed RSTS/E 10.1 from install tapes on real PDP-11 hardware using an Exabyte EXB-8200 8mm

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-18 Thread Warner Losh via cctalk
On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 6:18 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2/18/19 7:39 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > TU58, no -- that's not a file structured device on RSTS. RX33 is an > RX50 in a different physical package if I remember -- 800 block MSCP > device. That works

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-18 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 2/18/19 9:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> On 2/18/19 7:39 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> TU58, no -- that's not a file structured device on RSTS. RX33 is an RX50 >>> in a different physical package if I

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-18 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > On 2/18/19 7:39 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> ... >> TU58, no -- that's not a file structured device on RSTS. RX33 is an RX50 in >> a different physical package if I remember -- 800 block MSCP device. That >> works

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-18 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 2/18/19 7:39 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Feb 18, 2019, at 5:24 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> On 2/18/19 4:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> For the case of RSTS, small or large is not a consideration. What matters, >>> as I mentioned, is that RSTS has a file

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-18 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 18, 2019, at 5:24 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > On 2/18/19 4:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> ... >> For the case of RSTS, small or large is not a consideration. What matters, >> as I mentioned, is that RSTS has a file system layout that is dependent on >> the

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-18 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 2/18/19 4:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Feb 18, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> >> >> SO, to start a wrap up on this topic. I had heard of people >> copying images made on SIMH to real disks and using them. It >> now seems there are some serious strings

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-18 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 18, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > > > SO, to start a wrap up on this topic. I had heard of people > copying images made on SIMH to real disks and using them. It > now seems there are some serious strings attached to that idea. > I know it works for

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-18 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
SO, to start a wrap up on this topic. I had heard of people copying images made on SIMH to real disks and using them. It now seems there are some serious strings attached to that idea. I know it works for small disks as I have done it with RL02 and RX/Ry disks. I have one more thing to try

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-18 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 17, 2019, at 2:32 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > > > >> On Feb 16, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> ... >> First, my hardware. I have a PDP-11/93 with a CMD SCSI Module and >> a BA350 with 6 2GB hard drives. The Module is set up to present

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-17 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 16, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > First, my hardware. I have a PDP-11/93 with a CMD SCSI Module and > a BA350 with 6 2GB hard drives. The Module is set up to present RA81 > disks and the first 3 disks have 4 partitions each which should work >

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-17 Thread Paul Koning via cctalk
> On Feb 16, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > let's try with a detailed explanation of what I did that didn't seem > to work. > > First, my hardware. I have a PDP-11/93 with a CMD SCSI Module and > a BA350 with 6 2GB hard drives. The Module is set up to

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-17 Thread J. David Bryan via cctalk
On 2/16/19 7:55 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > So, I used SIMH to do an install of a complete OS on an RA81 disk. I > would like to move this to a real disk and try it on a real PDP-11. Note that SIMH always writes disc images in little-endian format, regardless of host platform. If

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-16 Thread Charles Anthony via cctalk
On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 10:53 AM Charles Anthony wrote: > > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 10:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> I used SIMH to build RSTS V9.6 on a simulated RA81 disk. I wrote the >> disk as a file to a CDR in CD9660 format. I moved the

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-16 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 2/16/19 3:57 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > >> On Feb 16, 2019, at 10:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> OK, as usual, I hac caused confusion and didn't get my point across. >> >> let's try with a detailed explanation of what I did that didn't seem >> to work. >> >> First, my

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-16 Thread Zane Healy via cctalk
> On Feb 16, 2019, at 10:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > OK, as usual, I hac caused confusion and didn't get my point across. > > let's try with a detailed explanation of what I did that didn't seem > to work. > > First, my hardware. I have a PDP-11/93 with a CMD SCSI

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-16 Thread Charles Anthony via cctalk
On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 10:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I used SIMH to build RSTS V9.6 on a simulated RA81 disk. I wrote the > disk as a file to a CDR in CD9660 format. I moved the BA350 and the > CD to a VS3100 running OpenBSD. I was able to mount the

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-16 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
On 2/16/19 12:35 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On Feb 16, 2019, at 9:10 AM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> Bill, >> >> On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:55:10 + >> Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >>> So, I used SIMH to do an install of a complete OS on >>> an RA81 disk. I would

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-16 Thread Jerry Weiss via cctalk
On 2/16/19 7:55 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: So, I used SIMH to do an install of a complete OS on an RA81 disk. I would like to move this to a real disk and try it on a real PDP-11. Is there a way to do this using dd on a BSD machine? I tried but it created a non bootable system.

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-16 Thread Zane Healy via cctalk
> On Feb 16, 2019, at 9:10 AM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk > wrote: > > Bill, > > On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:55:10 + > Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> So, I used SIMH to do an install of a complete OS on >> an RA81 disk. I would like to move this to a real disk >> and try it on a real

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-16 Thread Lyle Bickley via cctalk
Bill, On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:55:10 + Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > So, I used SIMH to do an install of a complete OS on > an RA81 disk. I would like to move this to a real disk > and try it on a real PDP-11. Is there a way to do this > using dd on a BSD machine? I tried but it

PDP-11 disk image question

2019-02-16 Thread Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
So, I used SIMH to do an install of a complete OS on an RA81 disk. I would like to move this to a real disk and try it on a real PDP-11. Is there a way to do this using dd on a BSD machine? I tried but it created a non bootable system. Well, actually, it starts to boot but then fails very