Re: LISP microcode for an 11/730? Was Re: Modifying microcode

On 06/15/2018 08:28, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > I wasn't able to find a reference to back it up, but ... Sorry for the delay - that was stuck in my Outbox over a two week business trip...

LISP microcode for an 11/730? Was Re: Modifying microcode

On 06/02/2018 11:08, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: I've heard a persistent rumor over the years that the WPS/8 and PDP-8 software group at DEC had modified the 730's microcode to support a PDP-8 emulation [...] I wasn't able to find a reference to back it up, but if we're sharing

RE: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode)

>Eric Smith wrote: >There's SDI protocol documentation? You know, after I wrote that I realized that I was wrong about SDI. I've seen some electrical specs, but not the protocol. Bob

Re: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode)

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 12:53 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > AFAIK the LESI ("Low End Storage Interconnect") protocol is not > documented anywhere, unlike SDI or MASSBUS which are. If it is, I've never > found it. I have several UNIBUS KLESI boards and I've

Re: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode)

On 06/05/2018 02:53 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >I too have heard that RC25s and PDP-11s were used in nuclear subs for some > kind of sonar thingie. I've no idea how that worked, except that maybe DEC > gave all the good drives to the Navy and the rest of us got the crappy

RE: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode)

I too have heard that RC25s and PDP-11s were used in nuclear subs for some kind of sonar thingie. I've no idea how that worked, except that maybe DEC gave all the good drives to the Navy and the rest of us got the crappy ones. They worked as long as you didn't spin them down or try to

Re: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode)

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 2:53 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: > I too have heard that RC25s and PDP-11s were used in nuclear subs for some > kind of sonar thingie. I've no idea how that worked, except that maybe DEC > gave all the good drives to the Navy and the rest of us got the crappy ones.

Re: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode)

On 06/05/2018 01:08 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >>> On Jun 4, 2018, at 1:17 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> ... FWIW, I have a 725 complete and working. Well, except for the RC25, >>> which never

Re: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode)

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 1:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > Mostly, what I need is affordable ($250 or less) Unibus storage with > > modern media > > There's this: > > http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/unibone I would totally buy this. I have some NOS

Re: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode)

> From: Ethan Dicks > Mostly, what I need is affordable ($250 or less) Unibus storage with > modern media There's this: http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/unibone Not quite there yet, but getting there. Noel

RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode)

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Jun 4, 2018, at 1:17 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> ... FWIW, I have a 725 complete and working. Well, except for the RC25, >> which never worked even when they were new. I had an 11/725 in the 80s and 90s

Re: Modifying microcode

Rob Doyle wrote: > Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> The microcode for the MicroVAX 2 (for which the MICRO2 assembler was >> used) and the CVAX (which is the CPU in your 3800) is implemented as >> a mask ROM on the CPU chip itself. No way to change it, and no way >> you can use MICRO2 to assemble the

Re: Modifying microcode

> On Jun 4, 2018, at 1:17 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk > wrote: > > ... FWIW, I have a 725 complete and working. Well, except for the RC25, > which never worked even when they were new. Hm. I remember some RC25s on RSTS, and they seemed to be ok. The fact that they had two drives

RE: Modifying microcode

> Ethan Dicks wrote: >We used to purchase 11/725s for parts to keep our 11/730 running. I remember when the 725 first came out. I was working for DEC at the time, and up until then the only VAXes I'd ever seen were 780s. Somebody rolled this little end table sized thing into the lab and

Re: Modifying microcode

On 5/30/2018 7:34 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: The microcode for the MicroVAX 2 (for which the MICRO2 assembler was used) and the CVAX (which is the CPU in your 3800) is implemented as a mask ROM on the CPU chip itself. No way to change it, and no way you can use MICRO2 to assemble

Re: Modifying microcode

> On Jun 3, 2018, at 7:37 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk > wrote: > > We used to purchase 11/725s for parts to keep our 11/730 running. > Much cheaper because "nobody" wanted an 11/725 in the early 90s (I > still have one. I wish I could afford a Unibus controller to replace > the KLESI/U and

Re: Modifying microcode

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > the 78032 chip. The VAX-11/730 was chosen because it was "an entirely 'soft' > machine". > > (The VAX-11/725 is essentially the same hardware but in different > packaging). We used to purchase 11/725s for parts to keep our

Re: Modifying microcode

> On Jun 2, 2018, at 2:08 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk > wrote: > >> Tony Duell wrote: >> Incidentally, did DEC ever release any details (flowcharts, source listings, >> etc) of the 11/730 microcode? And what about the control PROMs for the >> memory system. The technical manual implies

Re: Modifying microcode

On 6/3/18 11:17 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > From reading the DTJ article it seems as though there was no set of neatly > pre-packaged ucode development tools for the > 730. and the 730 started out in life as a PDP-10 (Minnow)

RE: Modifying microcode

On 02/06/18 15:17, allison via cctech wrote: > > It was my understanding from using the 730 that there was limited > (really limited) microcode > enough to load the WCS as the tu58 was a serial device (standard tu58) > and the 730 had to > unpack and stuff the WCS.� You need little to do that but

Re: Modifying microcode

On 02/06/18 19:08, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: Tony Duell wrote: Incidentally, did DEC ever release any details (flowcharts, source listings, etc) of the 11/730 microcode? And what about the control PROMs for the memory system. The technical manual implies there was a listing of those,

Re: Modifying microcode

> On Jun 2, 2018, at 2:08 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk > wrote: > >> Tony Duell wrote: >> Incidentally, did DEC ever release any details (flowcharts, source listings, >> etc) of the 11/730 microcode? And what about the control PROMs for the >> memory system. The technical manual implies

Re: Modifying microcode

On 06/02/2018 03:33 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctech wrote: On 02/06/18 15:17, allison via cctech wrote: It was my understanding from using the 730 that there was limited (really limited) microcode enough to load the WCS as the tu58 was a serial device (standard tu58) and the 730 had to

Re: Modifying microcode

> It was my understanding from using the 730 that there was limited > (really limited) microcode > enough to load the WCS as the tu58 was a serial device (standard tu58) > and the 730 had to > unpack and stuff the WCS. You need little to do that but far from even > PDP11 instruction set. > The

Re: Modifying microcode

On 06/02/2018 02:45 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:37 PM, Alan Frisbie wrote: Tony Duell

Re: Modifying microcode

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:45 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > Given the vagaries of tape, I'm surprised nobody has made a simple TU58 > emulator that can feed the proper microcode bits to the 11/730... > > Then again, maybe there's no market for that. Oh, I think there are. I belive you can use

Re: Modifying microcode

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:37 PM, Alan Frisbie > wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > >> > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. > >> > >> Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is

Re: Modifying microcode

On 06/02/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. > > > > Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not > > running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive > rollers, > > but

Re: Modifying microcode

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:37 PM, Alan Frisbie wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. >> >> Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not >> running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive >> rollers, >> but as yet

Re: Modifying microcode

Tony Duell wrote: > > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. > > Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not > running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive rollers, > but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the >

Re: Modifying microcode

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >>Eric Smith wrote: > >>The control stores of the 11/785, 8600, and 8650 were entirely WCS. >> >>All other VAXen had (relatively) large ROM control store and tiny WCS or >>patch store. > > You forgot the 11/730 and 725. The

RE: Modifying microcode

>Eric Smith wrote: >The control stores of the 11/785, 8600, and 8650 were entirely WCS. > >All other VAXen had (relatively) large ROM control store and tiny WCS or >patch store. You forgot the 11/730 and 725. The KA730 used 2901 bit slicers and the control store was entirely in RAM. After

Re: Modifying microcode

On 01/06/18 18:40, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote: Eric Smith wrote: The control stores of the 11/785, 8600, and 8650 were entirely WCS. All other VAXen had (relatively) large ROM control store and tiny WCS or patch store. You forgot

Re: Modifying microcode

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote: > >Eric Smith wrote: > > >The control stores of the 11/785, 8600, and 8650 were entirely WCS. > > > >All other VAXen had (relatively) large ROM control store and tiny WCS or > >patch store. > > You forgot the 11/730 and 725. The KA730

Re: Modifying microcode

On Wed, May 30, 2018, 20:26 Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > The early 780 had most microcode in ROM, and had a small > writable control store for special OS-required options and > patches. Later machines had more WCS, but I think they > still had some non-writable control store. > The control

Re: Modifying microcode

On 05/30/2018 11:48 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On May 30, 2018, at 11:11 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: Depending on your definition of small, the MicroVAX 1, and the VAX 8000 series (not that small). In both cases though, the ROM chips are a custom DEC design. Didn't

Re: Modifying microcode

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: >> Gotcha. Which small VAXes had external ROM/PALs for microcode store? >> > > > Depending on your definition of small, the MicroVAX 1, and the VAX 8000 series > (not that small). In both cases though, the ROM chips are a

Re: Modifying microcode

> From: Henk Gooijen > My findings so far : > www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-35/repair/repair35page.html > Comments are very welcome! I got a: You don't have permission to access to this document on this server. Apache Server at pdp-11.nl error message? > I vaguely remember

Re: Modifying microcode

> On May 30, 2018, at 6:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: > >> From: Kyle Owen > >> I do have an 11/45, though... so with this modification, I suppose one >> could have some fun: > > That's for the -11/40 - very different machine, one couldn't use the same > technique on the /45; the

Re: Modifying microcode

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/30/2018 08:19 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > >> >> I'm thinking about trying to find a microcoded architecture to play with >> before I design something around the Intel 3000 series. >> > Intel 3000? WHY! > Well, the Tesla clones

Re: Modifying microcode

On 05/30/2018 08:19 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: Has anyone attempted to reassemble and update the microcode on a MicroVAX? Seems like there's enough stuff here to possibly do it: http://simh.trailing-edge.com/semi/ucode/ I'm thinking about trying to find a microcoded architecture to play

Re: Modifying microcode

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 10:48 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Didn't the 780 get its microcode loaded by the console LSI-11? Only the small microcode patch store was loaded. Most of the 11/780 microcode was in bipolar PROMs. The later 11/785 had all of the microcode

RE: Modifying microcode

Van: Paul Koning via cctalk<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org> Verzonden: woensdag 30 mei 2018 18:49 Aan: Camiel Vanderhoeven<mailto:camiel.vanderhoe...@vmssoftware.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org> Onderwerp: Re: Modifying microc

Re: Modifying microcode

> On May 30, 2018, at 11:11 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk > wrote: > > Depending on your definition of small, the MicroVAX 1, and the VAX 8000 > series (not that small). In both cases though, the ROM chips are a custom DEC > design. Didn't the 780 get its microcode loaded by the

RE: Modifying microcode

Van: Noel Chiappa via cctalk<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org> Verzonden: woensdag 30 mei 2018 17:17 Aan: cctalk@classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org> CC: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu<mailto:j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Onderwerp: Re: Modifying microcode > From: Kyle Ow

Re: Modifying microcode

On 5/30/18, 5:03 PM, "Kyle Owen" wrote: On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 9:34 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: The microcode for the MicroVAX 2 (for which the MICRO2 assembler was used) and the CVAX (which is the CPU in your 3800) is implemented as a mask ROM on the CPU chip itself. No way to

Re: Modifying microcode

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 9:34 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven < camiel.vanderhoe...@vmssoftware.com> wrote: > The microcode for the MicroVAX 2 (for which the MICRO2 assembler was used) > and the CVAX (which is the CPU in your 3800) is implemented as a mask ROM > on the CPU chip itself. No way to change

Re: Modifying microcode

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 8:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Kyle Owen > > > I do have an 11/45, though... so with this modification, I suppose > one > > could have some fun: > > That's for the -11/40 - very different machine, one couldn't use the

Re: Modifying microcode

The microcode for the MicroVAX 2 (for which the MICRO2 assembler was used) and the CVAX (which is the CPU in your 3800) is implemented as a mask ROM on the CPU chip itself. No way to change it, and no way you can use MICRO2 to assemble the microcode for the CVAX. On 5/30/18, 3:19 PM, "cctalk

Re: Modifying microcode

> From: Kyle Owen > I do have an 11/45, though... so with this modification, I suppose one > could have some fun: That's for the -11/40 - very different machine, one couldn't use the same technique on the /45; the /40 is prepared to accept additional ucode on additional CPU boards,