Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 12:20 AM, tony duell a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: [My 11/730] Sorry to hear that it's been decabled. Take your time to route those cables through the bottom pan properly, Yes, it's going to be a lot of work to get it back together. I think I am going to start (when I have got the machine room straightened out, etc) with the 2 parts of the cable tray on the bench. Route all the cables. Fit the tray to the rack, then the CPU box slides, then the CPU box, and connect everything up. And get it right first time, I do not want to be changing things here. The VAX-11/730 System Installation Guide (EK-SI730-IN-003) has information about how to load the catch pan. Given all the 90 degree and 45 degree folds, it's the sort of thing you only want to do to a fresh cable once. There might also be a specific 11/730-Z detailed installation manual. I have a memory of one but don't know the part number. My memories of those days (we had two 11/730s) is that if you don't do it the way they did, either things won't reach (or be on the wrong side to fit into bulkhead connectors) or you'll have to redo it. https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decvax730E83_4699164 Exactly. Which is one reason I am considering a Unibus expansion box. Keep the CPU with a standard fixed configuration and have the expansion box with simpler cable routing for things I want to change. We did have that. It was nearly essential. We had the CPU, memory, and the default (as shipped) peripherals. Everything else went into our BA-11K FWIW, we only had the RB80/RL02 version. Tape was a TU80 with the controller in the BA-11K. Our COMBOARDs also went in the BA-11K, but that was also for our convenience of swapping out our own product for testing and firmware swaps, etc. -ethan
Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
On Jun 15, 2015, at 09:02, Guy Sotomayor g...@shiresoft.com wrote: I'm not specifically familiar with the 11/730, but what's wrong with just cabling up an expansion box the old fashioned way using BC11A cable? Without losing anything else in the already-full rack, I'd need to route that cable between two racks. It's already tricky to roll the cabinets back into place without rolling over the existing round snakes between the cabinets, and I figure that wide ribbon cables would be more cumbersome (or is the BC11A round?). I have the system in a tiny room where it's not practical to have space behind the racks to get rear access without rolling them. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
Hi Mark, Do you just need a 4 or 9 slot backplane? I Don't see the need for a repeater unless I'm missing something. Paul On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Mark J. Blair n...@nf6x.net wrote: Has anybody ever made a UNIBUS repeater with a high speed serial link between the bus segments yet? I'm curious because my VAX-11/730 backplane is full, and it would be nice to be able to experiment with additional hardware without needing to pull out one of the existing boards, i.e., adding a TK50 interface without removing the DEUNA, adding a SCSI card to boot from a scsi2sd without pulling the integrated drive controller, etc. There's a blank spot in the TU80 cabinet that looks like it may be tall enough for an expansion chassis, but the thought of adding more big ribbon cables to the belly plate area and then routing them between racks doesn't appeal to me. Running something like a CAT5 cable between the two racks would be a lot easier. Another application would be for placing a small remote UNIBUS backplane on the test bench for easy access, and cabling it to a VAX or PDP-11 elsewhere in the room. This should be quite possible with modern hardware, but I'm curious about whether something similar has been done before. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
On Jun 15, 2015, at 09:06, Paul Anderson used...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Mark, Do you just need a 4 or 9 slot backplane? I Don't see the need for a repeater unless I'm missing something. An expansion without a reapeater would work just fine electrically. I'm curious about whether some sort of repeater exists that uses a thin, round cable for an application where it's desirable to be able to move the expansion around easily. And also where it's cheap and easy to replace the cable after rolling a rack cabinet over it one time too many! :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
BC11-A is flat, guessing 4 inches wide, but you man make nice 90 degree or what ever angle you need easily. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Mark J. Blair n...@nf6x.net wrote: On Jun 15, 2015, at 09:02, Guy Sotomayor g...@shiresoft.com wrote: I'm not specifically familiar with the 11/730, but what's wrong with just cabling up an expansion box the old fashioned way using BC11A cable? Without losing anything else in the already-full rack, I'd need to route that cable between two racks. It's already tricky to roll the cabinets back into place without rolling over the existing round snakes between the cabinets, and I figure that wide ribbon cables would be more cumbersome (or is the BC11A round?). I have the system in a tiny room where it's not practical to have space behind the racks to get rear access without rolling them. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
RE: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
[11/730] In mine, an RL02 drive is the third unit of the rack containing the CPU cabinet, and the TU80 tape drive is too tall As I understand it, there were intitially 2 'packaged' systems. One had the CPU with an RL02 under it for the OS disk and an RL02 on top for the user disk. The other had an R80 in place of the bottom RL02. If you had the first version, the bottom RL02 slid out to change the pack. for that slot (though one of the later front-loaders would probably fit). If you don't need an RL02 drive, then i That's what they did. There was a third (later) packaged system with the CPU, an R80 under it and a front loading (Cipher F880) magtape on top. That is what mine started out as. think the hole it would leave behind is just the right size for an expansion chassis. Hmm, if it's the same rack that originally had the RL02 in it, then there should be no top panel, as the top-mounted RL02 was meant to be I am not sure if I got the top panel but if I did it is no longer on the rack... -tony
RE: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Mark J. Blair [n...@nf6x.net] Sent: 16 June 2015 06:06 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater? [11/730] for that slot (though one of the later front-loaders would probably fit). If you don't need an RL02 drive, then i That's what they did. There was a third (later) packaged system with the CPU, an R80 under it and a front loading (Cipher F880) magtape on top. That is what mine started out as. Aha! I didn't know that. Makes a lot of sense, and takes up half the floor space compared to having a TU80 in a second rack. I think the documentation I have predates that configuration option. I guess magtape was more useful as a backup medium than the RL02... I am not sure if I got the top panel but if I did it is no longer on the rack... If you do have it, I wonder if it would be hard to add hinges for easy access to a top expansion chassis? Something tells me that top panel was hinged at the back... -tony
Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
On Jun 15, 2015, at 21:20, tony duell a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: Mine did start out as the 'packaged' system in the half-rack, and I intend to keep it in that cabinet. Obviously I will keep the CPU and R80, but I am not sure if the tape drive is the most useful third unit at this stage. In mine, an RL02 drive is the third unit of the rack containing the CPU cabinet, and the TU80 tape drive is too tall for that slot (though one of the later front-loaders would probably fit). If you don't need an RL02 drive, then i think the hole it would leave behind is just the right size for an expansion chassis. Hmm, if it's the same rack that originally had the RL02 in it, then there should be no top panel, as the top-mounted RL02 was meant to be opened without sliding it out. With an expansion chassis in its place, you should be able to get full top access to the expansion chassis without sliding anything in or out. That seems like it would be super awesome since you want easy access for swapping cards. And no need to run a BC11A cable between racks, either. I've played with the idea of making a top cover for my main rack that rests on the cabinet sides, straddling the RL02. If I unscrew the shipping bracket at the back of the RL02 then I could slide it out for pack changes, and leave other stuff like a terminal sitting on top. I usually seem to have stuff sitting on top of the RL02 and/or TU80 anyway, and then I need to shuffle the stuff around whenever I need to open one or the other. Ok, that's enough enthusiastic agreement for now. Off to the other thread for some more enthusiastic disagreement! :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
RE: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
[My 11/730] Sorry to hear that it's been decabled. Take your time to route those cables through the bottom pan properly, Yes, it's going to be a lot of work to get it back together. I think I am going to start (when I have got the machine room straightened out, etc) with the 2 parts of the cable tray on the bench. Route all the cables. Fit the tray to the rack, then the CPU box slides, then the CPU box, and connect everything up. And get it right first time, I do not want to be changing things here. and based on my experience so far, I do not recommend trying to route anything but flat cables through the pan area. Route anything round up over the top and along the folding support arm (what I've been calling a I am pretty sure DEC will agree with you there... gantry, but not necessarily correctly). For anything temporary, might as well leave the cabinet slid out and let I know the bit you mean, the thing that carries the power and power control cables. the cable dangle. The 730 is nicely made for sliding in and out easily, but really not optimized for frequent hardware configuration changes. Exactly. Which is one reason I am considering a Unibus expansion box. Keep the CPU with a standard fixed configuration and have the expansion box with simpler cable routing for things I want to change. That's why I am thinking of adding a BA11K or something on top. That makes sense to me, particularly if you will not be constrained by the original rack configuration like I am. The 730 has limited UNIBUS slots anyway, so might as well use an expansion rack for anything you might change frequently. Mine did start out as the 'packaged' system in the half-rack, and I intend to keep it in that cabinet. Obviously I will keep the CPU and R80, but I am not sure if the tape drive is the most useful third unit at this stage. -tony
RE: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
That's a much better description of the 730's mechanical peculiarities than I came up with. I was more concerned with cable management between the two racks, since I have them in a tiny room where I need to roll them around to get access to the back (it's literally a tiny bedroom in a manufactured home... basically a doublewide trailer that's been fastened to a foundation after having the axles and drawbar cut off!). It's already tricky to roll the racks back into place without running over the power cables, tape drive cables, serial lines and power controller cable. But managing the cables in the cable tray area is another thing that needs to be done right. My 11/730 was totally decabled to get it to me. I think I have most of the original cables, and most of the metalwork. I've read the descriptions in the hardware manual on bitsavers and I am not looking forward to routing all those cables... Oh well It's a nice idea for a system that is not going to change, but adding or removing cables for a particular peripheral option is going to be painful. I suspect routing all the cables between the trays on a bench and then mounting the bits in the rack is OK. But since the rack part of the tray has to be fitted before the CPU box sildes, removing it every time you want to add or remove a cable is not practical and fiddling a cable in or out is going to be non-trivial. So not really a good idea for the likes of me who is always changing things. That's why I am thinking of adding a BA11K or something on top. Based on the hardware user's guide that I have (and which I do plan to scan and share), I gather that UNIBUS expansion cabinets would generally be used in a configuration that's in a larger rack and has both TU58 slots on the front panel. I haven't seen one of those in person before. My system is the configuration that's in one or two short racks. The main one is completely filled by the RL02, VAX-11/730 and R80 drives, from top to bottom. The other rack contains the optional TU80, with an unused bay below it. I haven't measured the size of that unused bay yet, but it looks like it may be tall enough for a UNIBUS chassis. Maybe I could adapt one of my empty PDP-11/44 chassis boxes for use as an expansion chassis? Are you sure this manual isn't aready on bitsavers. I have an installation manual and a user manual from there that covers this stuff. As I understand it. my 11/730 system was originally 2 racks. One was the normal CPU + R80 + TS05 tape The other was a Unibus expansion box. I did get the cabling and boards to set this up, but not the second rack cabinet. Not that I really wanted it. My CPU box is the 'normal' one with built-in TU58s. one on the front, one on the side. Or another possible use for that slot could be for my Kennedy 9610 tape drive. The TU80 looks like it probably has a Pertec interface, so I should be able to add the Kennedy drive to the chain to get more BPI options in the The TS05 I have is certainly a (formatted) Pertec interface. -tony
Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
On Jun 15, 2015, at 10:11 , tony duell a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: I'm not specifically familiar with the 11/730, but what's wrong with just cabling up an expansion box the old fashioned way using BC11A cable? Nothing electtically... The problem is that the 11/730 mouting box (BA11-Z??) is a bit odd. The boards go in from the left. Cables end up going downwards (either straight down or over the top of the card cage, then down between the backplane and PSU). Then into a removeable tray on the bottom of the mouting box, round a flexible plastic sheet and to another tray fixed in the rack. The idea is to make the cables route nicely when yout slide the box in and out (something you have to do on the 11/730 to change the microcode tape or get to the main circuit breaker). That's a much better description of the 730's mechanical peculiarities than I came up with. I was more concerned with cable management between the two racks, since I have them in a tiny room where I need to roll them around to get access to the back (it's literally a tiny bedroom in a manufactured home... basically a doublewide trailer that's been fastened to a foundation after having the axles and drawbar cut off!). It's already tricky to roll the racks back into place without running over the power cables, tape drive cables, serial lines and power controller cable. But managing the cables in the cable tray area is another thing that needs to be done right. I am not sure how a BC11A cable would like being folded back and forth like that. The official way was, I think a board in the Unibus out slot of the 11/730 that had 3 40 pin Berg headers on it. This took 3 normal 40 way ribbon cables which went round the cable routing thing and to a similar board in the Unibus in slot of the expansion box. I think there were even bulkhead panels to route the cables to another rack cabinet. Three narrower cables sound like they would be easier to manage than one wide one. Based on the hardware user's guide that I have (and which I do plan to scan and share), I gather that UNIBUS expansion cabinets would generally be used in a configuration that's in a larger rack and has both TU58 slots on the front panel. I haven't seen one of those in person before. My system is the configuration that's in one or two short racks. The main one is completely filled by the RL02, VAX-11/730 and R80 drives, from top to bottom. The other rack contains the optional TU80, with an unused bay below it. I haven't measured the size of that unused bay yet, but it looks like it may be tall enough for a UNIBUS chassis. Maybe I could adapt one of my empty PDP-11/44 chassis boxes for use as an expansion chassis? Or another possible use for that slot could be for my Kennedy 9610 tape drive. The TU80 looks like it probably has a Pertec interface, so I should be able to add the Kennedy drive to the chain to get more BPI options in the system. Now that I have a computer with a Pertec interface running, buying/building a Pertec adapter for my Mac or Sun doesn't seem so important. Assuming I can bring up networking on the VAX that is, and that I can figure out how to do block-level stuff under VMS. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:11 AM, tony duell a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: Totally useless coincidence that I noticed while doing a cryptic crossword : 'ethernet' is an anagram of 'three ten', and the original ethernet speeds were three and then ten megabits/second. For bonus points, what's the actual data rate of three megabit/s Ethernet?
Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
On Jun 15, 2015, at 11:41 , tony duell a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: My 11/730 was totally decabled to get it to me. I think I have most of the original cables, and most of the metalwork. I've read the descriptions in the hardware manual on bitsavers and I am not looking forward to routing all those cables... Oh well Sorry to hear that it's been decabled. Take your time to route those cables through the bottom pan properly, and based on my experience so far, I do not recommend trying to route anything but flat cables through the pan area. Route anything round up over the top and along the folding support arm (what I've been calling a gantry, but not necessarily correctly). For anything temporary, might as well leave the cabinet slid out and let the cable dangle. The 730 is nicely made for sliding in and out easily, but really not optimized for frequent hardware configuration changes. It's a nice idea for a system that is not going to change, but adding or removing cables for a particular peripheral option is going to be painful. Yup, you're exactly right about that. That's why I am thinking of adding a BA11K or something on top. That makes sense to me, particularly if you will not be constrained by the original rack configuration like I am. The 730 has limited UNIBUS slots anyway, so might as well use an expansion rack for anything you might change frequently. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
On Jun 15, 2015, at 21:55, tony duell a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: [11/730] for that slot (though one of the later front-loaders would probably fit). If you don't need an RL02 drive, then i That's what they did. There was a third (later) packaged system with the CPU, an R80 under it and a front loading (Cipher F880) magtape on top. That is what mine started out as. Aha! I didn't know that. Makes a lot of sense, and takes up half the floor space compared to having a TU80 in a second rack. I think the documentation I have predates that configuration option. I am not sure if I got the top panel but if I did it is no longer on the rack... If you do have it, I wonder if it would be hard to add hinges for easy access to a top expansion chassis? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
Strobe Data make something like half of what you need: http://www.strobedata.com/home/unibusfw.html Unfortunately IIRC it's an 'if you have to ask the price you can't afford it' kind of deal... Mike On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 3:57 AM, Mark J. Blair n...@nf6x.net wrote: Has anybody ever made a UNIBUS repeater with a high speed serial link between the bus segments yet? I'm curious because my VAX-11/730 backplane is full, and it would be nice to be able to experiment with additional hardware without needing to pull out one of the existing boards, i.e., adding a TK50 interface without removing the DEUNA, adding a SCSI card to boot from a scsi2sd without pulling the integrated drive controller, etc. There's a blank spot in the TU80 cabinet that looks like it may be tall enough for an expansion chassis, but the thought of adding more big ribbon cables to the belly plate area and then routing them between racks doesn't appeal to me. Running something like a CAT5 cable between the two racks would be a lot easier. Another application would be for placing a small remote UNIBUS backplane on the test bench for easy access, and cabling it to a VAX or PDP-11 elsewhere in the room. This should be quite possible with modern hardware, but I'm curious about whether something similar has been done before. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/ -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
On Jun 15, 2015, at 16:26 , Mike Ross tmfdm...@gmail.com wrote: Strobe Data make something like half of what you need: http://www.strobedata.com/home/unibusfw.html Unfortunately IIRC it's an 'if you have to ask the price you can't afford it' kind of deal... Interesting! Thanks for sharing! I could probably make one cheaper, but I couldn't make one cheap. :) Another approach would be to build a BC11A-equivalent cable using multiple narrower ribbon cables (as previously mentioned in this thread), and use the round-jacketed-shielded ribbon cable. The stuff isn't cheap, though, and a couple of round-jacketed 40-conductor cables probably aren't any more flexible than the Pertec tape drive cables I already have snaking about between the racks. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
