Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 11:57 AM Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 6:22 AM Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have seen PDP-15 core memory and it is not that format. It looks like >> > the memory modules from a PDP-8/I or -8/L >> > > The ME15 memory for the PDP-15 used that kind of memory [H215/H216], but > it normally used an 18-bit H215. I think there was another variant that > offered parity that would have used the 19-bit H216. > > There might have been PDP-15 memory earlier than the ME15, but at the time > of the PDP-15 introduction (1970), H21x core planes were used in most DEC > machines, so it would have been surprising for them to use something else. > Perhaps some PDP-15 systems were upgrades from the PDP-9, which used memory > modules similar to the PDP-8/I. > The PDP-15 print set on Bitsavers shows that the original PDP-15 memory was the MM15, which was in fact very similar to the PDP-8/I memory, and was available with or without parity. The ME15 must have been developed for later PDP-15 systems, and used the newer H215 core stack. I can't find any evidence of a parity version of that, which if it existed would have used the H216.
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 6:22 AM Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 11:26:22PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > > Or maybe a PDP-15? 18 bits plus parity. > > > > Possible, did the pdp15 use that type of board? > > > > I have seen PDP-15 core memory and it is not that format. It looks like > the memory modules from a PDP-8/I or -8/L > The ME15 memory for the PDP-15 used that kind of memory, but it normally used an 18-bit H215. I think there was another variant that offered parity that would have used the 19-bit H216. There might have been PDP-15 memory earlier than the ME15, but at the time of the PDP-15 introduction (1970), H21x core planes were used in most DEC machines, so it would have been surprising for them to use something else. Perhaps some PDP-15 systems were upgrades from the PDP-9, which used memory modules similar to the PDP-8/I.
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
> (Whether that's all done on the companion driver boards, and the H21x > card would just bring the wiring of the two banks out to the edge > connector in parallel, letting the driver board do what it wants, I > don't know - you'd have to look at the MM11-L engineering drawings/TM.) > The other possibility is that the PDP-10 memory used these boards in > pairs. It's not either! First, I looked at the MM11-L TM, and it talks about how the H214 has "mats" (2D arrays of cores), 1 mat per bit; the H214 has 16 mats. So definitely no effectively 36+ bit wide variant. So, pairs? Well, I looked to see what PDP-10 memory TM's were extant, and there's one for the MF10 (A-MN-MF10-0-MAN-1); and glancing in it, it _does_ use the H216 - with "19 mats" to produce "19-bit word memory banks"! (Exactly how, I didn't have time to stop and read. It's got to be pairs, but at the bank level, not board.) So our guess as to which generation of PDP-10 memories it was used in might have been wrong... Noel
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
> From: Chris Zach > My guess is the H215 has two more core fields on it I uploaded a (crappy - sigh) image of an H215 I have to here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/File:H215-core-memory-board.jpg and it's clearly not symmetrical, but does have a slightly bugger blank space than yours. It has a label that says "18x8K" (so 16 bits plus byte parity - for DATOB bus write operations to one byte at a time), which sounds orrect. > Odd they could fit up to 20 bits, maybe an early ECC (16b+4 ECC?) No, this way pre-dates ECC memory (the cost of the extra bits - more cores to string in - was probably more than it was worth), and probably before ECC disks too (I think the first DEC ECC disk was the RP04). > I'll bet that it could work in the 11/05 if one of those boards ever > blow out. That's my guess too; _but_ there might be some jumpering/etc issues to adjust the word width. I.e. the PDP-11 parity H215 is 18 bits wide, which is right for 16-bit words, whereas PDP-10 parity memory would be 36+1 parity bit = 37 bits wide. So there might be 2 banks on one of those cards, and the PDP-11 memory treats them as separate banks, whereas on a -10 they'd be ganged together in parallel. (Whether that's all done on the companion driver boards, and the H21x card would just bring the wiring of the two banks out to the edge connector in parallel, letting the driver board do what it wants, I don't know - you'd have to look at the MM11-L engineering drawings/TM.) The other possibility is that the PDP-10 memory used these boards in pairs. We do have the MA10 Maint Manual, but in a quick look it looks like it doesn't use these boards. So maybe a later -10 memory system? Noel
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
Ok, then my guess is this either came from a KI or a KA with a very different memory box. I'll put it in the collection, and oddly enough I'll bet that it could work in the 11/05 if one of those boards ever blow out. C On 10/22/2020 1:56 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: I know for certain they had KL and KS machines but no KA. It is possible they had a KI machine. /P On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:42:43PM -0400, Chris Zach wrote: Exactly. See: http://www.crystel.com/pdp/DSC_0032.JPG So which class of pdp-10 did QZ have? KA or KI? CZ On 10/22/2020 1:33 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: Does yours look like this: https://digitaltmuseum.se/021026360851/ferritkarnminne The one pictured should be from QZ which had PDP-10 machines. On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 05:48:22PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Very similar to mine, however this one has only one of the core mats un-woven. Want me to take a picture of it? C On 10/21/2020 1:33 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: There’s a piece of core on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-H214-Digital-Equipment-Core-Memory-Litton-38540-1/111384040291 which claims to be H214. The interesting thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. Sent from Mail for Windows 10
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
I know for certain they had KL and KS machines but no KA. It is possible they had a KI machine. /P On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:42:43PM -0400, Chris Zach wrote: > Exactly. See: > > http://www.crystel.com/pdp/DSC_0032.JPG > > So which class of pdp-10 did QZ have? KA or KI? > > CZ > > On 10/22/2020 1:33 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Does yours look like this: > > > > https://digitaltmuseum.se/021026360851/ferritkarnminne > > > > The one pictured should be from QZ which had PDP-10 machines. > > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 05:48:22PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > > Very similar to mine, however this one has only one of the core mats > > > un-woven. Want me to take a picture of it? > > > > > > C > > > > > > On 10/21/2020 1:33 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: > > > > There’s a piece of core on eBay > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-H214-Digital-Equipment-Core-Memory-Litton-38540-1/111384040291 > > > > which claims to be H214. The interesting thing is the label says 8K x > > > > 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > >
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
Exactly. See: http://www.crystel.com/pdp/DSC_0032.JPG So which class of pdp-10 did QZ have? KA or KI? CZ On 10/22/2020 1:33 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: Does yours look like this: https://digitaltmuseum.se/021026360851/ferritkarnminne The one pictured should be from QZ which had PDP-10 machines. On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 05:48:22PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Very similar to mine, however this one has only one of the core mats un-woven. Want me to take a picture of it? C On 10/21/2020 1:33 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: There’s a piece of core on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-H214-Digital-Equipment-Core-Memory-Litton-38540-1/111384040291 which claims to be H214. The interesting thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. Sent from Mail for Windows 10
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
Does yours look like this: https://digitaltmuseum.se/021026360851/ferritkarnminne The one pictured should be from QZ which had PDP-10 machines. On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 05:48:22PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Very similar to mine, however this one has only one of the core mats > un-woven. Want me to take a picture of it? > > C > > On 10/21/2020 1:33 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: > > There’s a piece of core on eBay > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-H214-Digital-Equipment-Core-Memory-Litton-38540-1/111384040291 > > which claims to be H214. The interesting thing is the label says 8K x 16 > > but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > >
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
My guess is the H215 has two more core fields on it since mine has 3 (18 bits plus parity). Odd they could fit up to 20 bits, maybe an early ECC (16b+4 ECC?) C On 10/21/2020 7:17 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > From: Richard Sheppard > There's a piece of core on eBay .. which claims to be H214. The interesting > thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. DEC did that a lot; used one silkscreen (and etch) for two different modules, with differing componet sets to produce two different boards (e.g the MSV11-D and -E: http://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-D_MOS_memory M8044 and M8045 respectively; the boards all say 'M8045' in the etch, you have to look at the handles). The H214 is the 16-bit wide version of this board, used in the MM11-L UNIBUS memory: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MM11-L_core_memory The parity MM11-LP uses the H215 (an 18-bit wide version), and a G109 instead of the G110 (again, same etch, some components left off for the G110. There's also an H213, used in the MM11-K: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MM11-K_core_memory which is an 8KB version; the H213 looks identical to the H214 at first glance, but if you look closely the core mats are only half as dense. Noel
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
I'm pretty sure the H216 was too new to have been used in an MA10 or MB10, but I don't know which core planes or other modules were used. They might have still been using core modules made by external vendors like Ferroxcube. It's looking to be the same vintage as the 11/05 memory I have (the H214) so early 70's. I'm uploading a picture of that and some 11/24 pictures to: https://www.crystel.com/pdp Should be there in an hour. CZ
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
3. Tell us more about Doug, and his apartment :-) Alas, those legends are lost in the mists and tubes of time... Only fragments remain to cause giggles at random intervals. CZ
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
> From: Richard Sheppard > There's a piece of core on eBay .. which claims to be H214. The interesting > thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. DEC did that a lot; used one silkscreen (and etch) for two different modules, with differing componet sets to produce two different boards (e.g the MSV11-D and -E: http://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-D_MOS_memory M8044 and M8045 respectively; the boards all say 'M8045' in the etch, you have to look at the handles). The H214 is the 16-bit wide version of this board, used in the MM11-L UNIBUS memory: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MM11-L_core_memory The parity MM11-LP uses the H215 (an 18-bit wide version), and a G109 instead of the G110 (again, same etch, some components left off for the G110. There's also an H213, used in the MM11-K: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MM11-K_core_memory which is an 8KB version; the H213 looks identical to the H214 at first glance, but if you look closely the core mats are only half as dense. Noel
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
Very similar to mine, however this one has only one of the core mats un-woven. Want me to take a picture of it? C On 10/21/2020 1:33 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: There’s a piece of core on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-H214-Digital-Equipment-Core-Memory-Litton-38540-1/111384040291 which claims to be H214. The interesting thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. Sent from Mail for Windows 10
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
There’s a piece of core on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-H214-Digital-Equipment-Core-Memory-Litton-38540-1/111384040291 which claims to be H214. The interesting thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. Sent from Mail for Windows 10
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 11:26:22PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Or maybe a PDP-15? 18 bits plus parity. > > Possible, did the pdp15 use that type of board? > I have seen PDP-15 core memory and it is not that format. It looks like the memory modules from a PDP-8/I or -8/L Admittedly, the PDP-15/XVM might have had something else.. not sure what model the core I saw came from. /P
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
Doug Jackson wrote: > Those of us late to the party may like to know: > 1. What was AL > 2. Why was it famous? Not AL, but AI. Also known as MIT-AI on the ARPANET. It was the PDP-10 used by the MIT AI lab, hence the name. The Incompatible Timesharing System was developed on their PDP-6, later moved to the PDP-10. There were three more ITS machines in the 70s: MIT-DMS/Dynamic Modeling, MIT-ML/Mathlab, and MIT-MC/Macsyma Consortium. If ITS doesn't ring a bell, maybe some of its applications/tools might: Maclisp, Scheme, Logo, CLU, DDT/HACTRN, SHRLDU, MacHack VI, Macsyma, Maze(war), Emacs, Zork. > 3. Tell us more about Doug, and his apartment :-) I'll leave it to others to talk about Digex.
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
Those of us late to the party may like to know: 1. What was AL 2. Why was it famous? 3. Tell us more about Doug, and his apartment :-) Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: d...@doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net --- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 18:05, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Chris Zach wrote: > > Did AI use MA10 memory boxes? > > No. It had the original 256K "moby" from Fabri-Tek, and another 256K > from Ampex. The associated PDP-6 had an older DEC Type 16x-something > 16K memory. > > > Did any of that stuff survive? > > Maybe bits and pieces here and there. The AI KA10 went to Concourse, > and then it was lost. >
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
Chris Zach wrote: > Did AI use MA10 memory boxes? No. It had the original 256K "moby" from Fabri-Tek, and another 256K from Ampex. The associated PDP-6 had an older DEC Type 16x-something 16K memory. > Did any of that stuff survive? Maybe bits and pieces here and there. The AI KA10 went to Concourse, and then it was lost.
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 10:02 PM Chris Zach wrote: > Ok, so the MF10 would have been hooked up to a KI10. > The ME10 was the first core box for the PDP-10 memory bus that supported 22-bit addressing, and could be used on the KA10, KI10, or KL10 (with a DMA20 memory bus interface, not available on DECSYSTEM-20 configurations). It has a toggle switch to select 18-bit or 22-bit addressing. The later core boxes (MF10, MG10, and MH10) also supported 18-bit and 22-bit addressing. The MA10, MB10, and MD10 only supported 18-bit addressing, so typically wouldn't have been used on the KI10 or KL10.
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
Ok, so the MF10 would have been hooked up to a KI10. That makes sense then. Still interesting wonder what set of bad decisions led it to my box of parts Anyone need DZ11's? C On 10/20/2020 11:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote: On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 8:06 PM Chris Zach via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote: The real weird one is a quad board H216. I thought it was a Unibus core memory board, Most of the DEC core plane boards were not specific to any particular bus. though there are some exceptions. but it's 8k*19 bits, which means it came from one place: An MA10 memory box. The only one I may have been exposed to was AI (the original KA10). I'm pretty sure the H216 was too new to have been used in an MA10 or MB10, but I don't know which core planes or other modules were used. They might have still been using core modules made by external vendors like Ferroxcube. The much later MF10 does use the H216, while the MG10 uses the H217 and the MH10 uses the H224. The H216 also might have been used in memory systems for a PDP-9 (late in its life) or the PDP-15. The ME15 normally used the H215 18-bit core planes, but I think there was a parity option, which would have used the H216.
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 8:06 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > The real weird one is a quad board H216. I thought it was a Unibus core > memory board, Most of the DEC core plane boards were not specific to any particular bus. though there are some exceptions. > but it's 8k*19 bits, which means it came from one place: > An MA10 memory box. The only one I may have been exposed to was AI (the > original KA10). > I'm pretty sure the H216 was too new to have been used in an MA10 or MB10, but I don't know which core planes or other modules were used. They might have still been using core modules made by external vendors like Ferroxcube. The much later MF10 does use the H216, while the MG10 uses the H217 and the MH10 uses the H224. The H216 also might have been used in memory systems for a PDP-9 (late in its life) or the PDP-15. The ME15 normally used the H215 18-bit core planes, but I think there was a parity option, which would have used the H216.
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
Or maybe a PDP-15? 18 bits plus parity. Possible, did the pdp15 use that type of board? I would guess that that would be much more likely. Problem is I have never been near a pdp15, but I have been in proximity to AI. I don't remember what happened to it after Doug's apartment, I do remember seeing the console with the switches in the storage unit, not sure what happened to that or the rest of it. Weird. (And I think it was a MF10 memory, not MA10)
Re: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
On 10/20/2020 9:05 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Now I'm starting to look through boxes to see if I have another 11/24 > CPU. I seem to recall picking a second one up somewhere, I also want to > see if I still have the driver board for the second Plessy core memory. > Might be around, might have been pitched. > > So far I did find a box of DZ11's. Not sure why I have a dozen of them, > they might have been from the USPS haul in days of yore. Anyone need a > couple of DZ11's? > > The real weird one is a quad board H216. I thought it was a Unibus core > memory board, but it's 8k*19 bits, which means it came from one place: > An MA10 memory box. The only one I may have been exposed to was AI (the > original KA10). So question: > > Did AI use MA10 memory boxes? > Did any of that stuff survive? > Anyplace else it might have come from? > > Weird stuff. Got a lot of it > > CZ Or maybe a PDP-15? 18 bits plus parity. I would guess that that would be much more likely. JRJ
The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory?
Now I'm starting to look through boxes to see if I have another 11/24 CPU. I seem to recall picking a second one up somewhere, I also want to see if I still have the driver board for the second Plessy core memory. Might be around, might have been pitched. So far I did find a box of DZ11's. Not sure why I have a dozen of them, they might have been from the USPS haul in days of yore. Anyone need a couple of DZ11's? The real weird one is a quad board H216. I thought it was a Unibus core memory board, but it's 8k*19 bits, which means it came from one place: An MA10 memory box. The only one I may have been exposed to was AI (the original KA10). So question: Did AI use MA10 memory boxes? Did any of that stuff survive? Anyplace else it might have come from? Weird stuff. Got a lot of it CZ
