Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Christian Corti]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
(For reference, we were talking about my experiences with a Bendix G-15, not 
an LGP-30.)  So, I think the G-15 drum had a brass sleeve that might have


How should I know? Change the subject then!

Christian

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Jon Elson]

On 01/02/2017 02:39 AM, Christian Corti wrote:

On Fri, 30 Dec 2016, Jon Elson wrote:
Is your drum in good condition?  Ours was full of dust, 
and 3 tracks had been ground down to the brass due to 
dust packing under the heads.


You can relocate bad tracks as there are a couple of spare 
tracks. And the drum is made of aluminium, not brass.


Well, I am very certain that there was brass showing through 
where the oxide had been rubbed through.
(For reference, we were talking about my experiences with a 
Bendix G-15, not an LGP-30.)  So, I think the G-15 drum had 
a brass sleeve that might have been shrunk onto the aluminum 
casting.  The brass would not have holes, which the aluminum 
casting could have had (But I'm just guessing about why they 
made it that way.)


Jon

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Paul Koning]

> On Dec 30, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Antonio Carlini  wrote:
> 
> On 30/12/16 17:49, Paul Koning wrote:
>> The Dutch computer ARMAC had a nice optimization, a track buffer. Under 
>> software control a given track would be copied to that buffer (in some sort 
>> of RAM -- core?) and then references to those addresses would be satisfied 
>> from the buffer. You could think of that as a very early cache. That was the 
>> machine on which Dijkstra first implemented the spanning tree algorithm (as 
>> a demo program for an exhibition).
> 
> Spanning tree? Really? Surely you mean Shortest Path First?

Sorry, brain lapse.  Yes, that's what I intended to say.

paul

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Antonio Carlini]

On 30/12/16 17:49, Paul Koning wrote:
The Dutch computer ARMAC had a nice optimization, a track buffer. 
Under software control a given track would be copied to that buffer 
(in some sort of RAM -- core?) and then references to those addresses 
would be satisfied from the buffer. You could think of that as a very 
early cache. That was the machine on which Dijkstra first implemented 
the spanning tree algorithm (as a demo program for an exhibition).


Spanning tree? Really? Surely you mean Shortest Path First?

Antonio


--
Antonio Carlini
arcarl...@iee.org

G-15 / was: Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Evan Koblentz]

Is your drum in good condition?  Ours was full of dust, and 3 tracks had
been ground down to the brass due to dust packing under the heads.


We haven't inspected it that closely.

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Chuck Guzis]

On 12/30/2016 09:49 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> I have an old set of lecture notes I'm translating, for a course on
> computer design from 1948, which discusses various memory types.  Not
> core memory, that came later.  But it mentions drums, and theorizes
> that those might be operated at 60,000 rpm...  I'm not sure where
> that optimism came from.  Perhaps because the author was a
> mathematician rather than a mechanical engineer?

CDC ADL back in the late 1960s was testing a prototype high-speed drum
for the STAR--100K RPM in vacuo, ISTR.   Probably a Jim
Thornton-inspired scheme.  I do recall Neil Lincoln mentioning that the
observation window became coated with drum material in the first few
minutes.

The idea was a very fast paging store.  That and the SCROLL tape/disk
device are two that come to mind.

Anent the LGP30--some drums were equipped with several heads spaced
around the same track to cut down on latency.

Logic need not be vacuum-tube or transistor--I recall the Univac Solid
State machines that used magnetic core as well as the Parametrons of NEC.

Drum machines persisted a bit longer than one would expect; e.g., the
Litton 1601 was produced in the early 70s.

A photo:

http://techno-science.ca/en/collection-research/collection-item.php?id=1982.0057.001

Technical reference manual:

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/litton/Litton1600_TechnicalRefMan.pdf

Bit serial architecture, of course.  An odd bird, if there ever was one.

--Chuck

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 01:02:50AM -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote:

Yes. When museum visitors ask, "What is its clock speed?," I reply,
"Something like a few hundred RPM."  :)


would 1 RPM be 60 cycles per second?

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Paul Koning]

> On Dec 30, 2016, at 12:51 AM, Jon Elson  wrote:
> 
> On 12/29/2016 10:04 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>> ...
> Ouch!  That means it runs one instruction per revolution of the drum?  that 
> would slow it to something like 30 IPS!
>> ...
>> Oh, I think a good case can be made. People often cite the LINC as the first,
>> but the G-15 and LGP-30 were similar in cost and intent, albeit a generation
>> (at least) older.
>> 
> SEVERAL generations older.  Core memory was a HUGE advance.  Rather more 
> complicated than a drum, but got rid of the horrid latency with a drum.  Even 
> if you optimized the executable code, machines like the G-15 had all sorts of 
> insane trickery to make data access faster.  There were instructions that 
> would copy a whole long line of data to the short lines so that these could 
> be accessed every 4 word times, instead of having to wait a full drum 
> revolution for the next word. 

The Dutch computer ARMAC had a nice optimization, a track buffer.  Under 
software control a given track would be copied to that buffer (in some sort of 
RAM -- core?) and then references to those addresses would be satisfied from 
the buffer.  You could think of that as a very early cache.  That was the 
machine on which Dijkstra first implemented the spanning tree algorithm (as a 
demo program for an exhibition).

For first generation machines, you could distinguish between vacuum tube ones, 
and the earlier relay machines.

I have an old set of lecture notes I'm translating, for a course on computer 
design from 1948, which discusses various memory types.  Not core memory, that 
came later.  But it mentions drums, and theorizes that those might be operated 
at 60,000 rpm...  I'm not sure where that optimism came from.  Perhaps because 
the author was a mathematician rather than a mechanical engineer?

paul

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Jon Elson]

On 12/30/2016 01:09 AM, Mark Linimon wrote:
(as you might imagine, most coding was done in machine 
language -- the compilers trying to deal with this was a 
nightmare. And waay slow.) 
Yes, supposedly the Algol compiler took two days to run on a 
modest program.


Jon

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Jon Elson]

On 12/29/2016 11:37 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
I know it's getting off-topic, but anyone who wants to see 
a G-15 is welcome to come visit the Vintage Computer 
Federation museum in New Jersey. There were 500 units 
made. The one here is believed to be number three. :)  We 
hope to restore it one of these days.


Is your drum in good condition?  Ours was full of dust, and 
3 tracks had been ground down to the brass due to dust 
packing under the heads.


Jon

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Jon Elson

> That means it runs one instruction per revolution of the drum?

I don't think it's quite that bad; ISTR something in the manual (BitSavers
has a good selection of them, it was in the Programming Manual, which is
quite interesting to look at) about how 'logical' sequential words were
actually interleaved by some factor into physical locations around the drum
(probably to prevent just this problem).

IIRC, the manual talks about how it's intended as a replacement for a
mechanical calculator (one of the hairy semi-programmable ones, I presume),
so their performance target wasn't that steep.

Noel

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 11:51:27PM -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
> There were instructions that would copy a whole long line of data to
> the short lines so that these could be accessed every 4 word times,
> instead of having to wait a full drum revolution for the next word.

Yeah, I had forgotten about the short lines.

IIRC there are 109 words on a full drum track (I am going to hand-wave
about the metadata on the track because otherwise your brain would
explode.)  So 29msec to watch the 109 words go around.  Oh, did you
think that instructions only took one word-time to execute?  hahahahahah.

No.

So you had to understand the period of time each instruction would run,
before you picked the address of the next instruction.  So you optimize
for that for about the first, say, 80 instructions of the code on that track.

Good for you!  But now ...

The rest of the instruction slots probably aren't going to be optimal.  In
fact, Murphy being who he is, there are almost certainly pessimal.

So.

Now, do it again, _just slightly_ de-optimizing your layout of the first 80
and see if you can cram the rest in without wasting too many drum cycles.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

(as you might imagine, most coding was done in machine language -- the
compilers trying to deal with this was a nightmare.  And waay slow.)

> Programming the G-15 was massively arcane, with all sorts of side effects
> and especially tricks to improve performance, so your program would run
> in a day, instead of a couple WEEKS

It was worse.

There were occasions where you wished to *pessimize* access.

Again, these are 50-year-old bits in my brain, but it may have had something
to do with waiting for the multiply and divide to finish up.  Or perhaps it
was I/O.  I was not doing enough heavy programming to encounter that.

After all, it was my first machine.

So easy to learn!

mcl

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 12:37:00AM -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote:
> There were 500 units made.

Hmm ... I remember from the old days that it was in the low 200s.

> We hope to restore it one of these days.

Well let me know if I can help.  In the new year one of my tasks is
to dust off the G-15 web site I created.

mcl

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 01:02:50AM -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote:
> Yes. When museum visitors ask, "What is its clock speed?," I reply,
> "Something like a few hundred RPM."  :)

OK, try again.  "29msec cycle time".

Look ... it was nearly 50 years ago, ok?

mcl

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 01:02:50AM -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote:
> Yes. When museum visitors ask, "What is its clock speed?," I reply,
> "Something like a few hundred RPM."  :)

Ancient dusty brain cells say "29usec cycle time".

mcl

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Evan Koblentz]

I know it's getting off-topic, but anyone who wants to see a G-15 is 
welcome to come visit the Vintage Computer Federation museum in New 
Jersey. There were 500 units made. The one here is believed to be number 
three. :)  We hope to restore it one of these days.

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Evan Koblentz]

Ouch!  That means it runs one instruction per revolution of the drum?


Yes. When museum visitors ask, "What is its clock speed?," I reply, 
"Something like a few hundred RPM."  :)


(I don't actually know how fast the motor spins, but my reply gets the 
point across.)

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Jon Elson]

On 12/29/2016 10:04 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Cory Heisterkamp

 > this is likely as close as I'll ever come to having a first generation
 > machine

Dude, as far as I'm concerned, if it uses some sort of circulating memory for
main memory (either delay line or drum), it's pretty much first generation (of
course, it all depends on how one defines generations).

(Unlike the very similar - in size/cost/role - Bendix G-15, it doesn't have
the 'next instruction' field in each instruction, to optimize performance,
though...)
Ouch!  That means it runs one instruction per revolution of 
the drum?  that would slow it to something like 30 IPS!

Interesting factoid about the Bendix G-15: it was designed with the help of
one of the ACE people (Harry Huskey), and is basically a re-packaged ACE with
drum instead of delay lines. There's an interesting article by Huskey himself
in "Alan Turing's ACE" (by Jack Copeland) which discusses the G-15.


 > From: William Degnan

 > I am being very careful not to call this "the first personal computer"

Oh, I think a good case can be made. People often cite the LINC as the first,
but the G-15 and LGP-30 were similar in cost and intent, albeit a generation
(at least) older.

SEVERAL generations older.  Core memory was a HUGE advance.  
Rather more complicated than a drum, but got rid of the 
horrid latency with a drum.  Even if you optimized the 
executable code, machines like the G-15 had all sorts of 
insane trickery to make data access faster.  There were 
instructions that would copy a whole long line of data to 
the short lines so that these could be accessed every 4 word 
times, instead of having to wait a full drum revolution for 
the next word.  There were all sorts of synchronization 
issues between where the instruction word was and where a 
data word was.  (Not meaning it would cause a failure, but a 
small program loop that was passing over a list of data 
words in a long line would be slowed to one loop per every 
few drum rotations, as the data access instruction would 
hang waiting on the data word to come around, then have to 
wait for the instruction word to come around, etc.) 
Programming the G-15 was massively arcane, with all sorts of 
side effects and especially tricks to improve performance, 
so your program would run in a day, instead of a couple 
WEEKS


Then, of course, The LINC was a discrete transistor machine, 
ran off a plain 120 V outlet, didn't require air 
conditioning beyond typical office environment, etc.  And, 
it had a CRT display that was used for OS interaction, 
program editing and viewing data.  That was also a big step up.


Jon

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Brian L. Stuart]

On Thu, 12/29/16, Noel Chiappa  wrote: 
> Interesting factoid about the Bendix G-15: it was designed with the help of
> one of the ACE people (Harry Huskey), and is basically a re-packaged ACE with
> drum instead of delay lines. There's an interesting article by Huskey himself
> in "Alan Turing's ACE" (by Jack Copeland) which discusses the G-15.

Indeed.  Huskey is probably one of the most influential, least known
early pioneers.  He was one of the engineers on the ENIAC, having
designed the card reader and punch interface units.  He spent some
time at NPL and was one of the prime pushers behind the idea of
building a pilot version of the ACE.  When he returned to the US, he
designed both the SWAC and the G-15.  Later he was on the
faculty at UC Berkeley where three of his advisees were Niklaus
Wirth, Ken Thompson, and Butler Lampson.  And he turned 100
early in 2016.

BLS

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Cory Heisterkamp

> this is likely as close as I'll ever come to having a first generation
> machine

Dude, as far as I'm concerned, if it uses some sort of circulating memory for
main memory (either delay line or drum), it's pretty much first generation (of
course, it all depends on how one defines generations).

(Unlike the very similar - in size/cost/role - Bendix G-15, it doesn't have
the 'next instruction' field in each instruction, to optimize performance,
though...)

Interesting factoid about the Bendix G-15: it was designed with the help of
one of the ACE people (Harry Huskey), and is basically a re-packaged ACE with
drum instead of delay lines. There's an interesting article by Huskey himself
in "Alan Turing's ACE" (by Jack Copeland) which discusses the G-15.


> From: William Degnan

> I am being very careful not to call this "the first personal computer"

Oh, I think a good case can be made. People often cite the LINC as the first,
but the G-15 and LGP-30 were similar in cost and intent, albeit a generation
(at least) older.

Noel

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Cory Heisterkamp]

On Dec 28, 2016, at 4:16 PM, jim stephens wrote:

> 
> On 12/28/2016 8:38 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
>> 
>> Guys, thanks for all the feedback. A challenge? Absolutely. But this is 
>> likely as close as I'll ever come to having a first generation machine, 
>> something unfathomable to me as a kid.
>> 
>> Apologies for the radio-silence, we've put 1200+ miles under our belts since 
>> Monday morning. Today we cross into Alberta. Will keep you all posted on how 
>> it goes.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Cory
> While you are where you can do it, if you are transporting it back, make sure 
> that all parts have the Made in USA clearly located for US customs.  I 
> encountered some blockheads when I crossed over carrying some material from 
> Canada a few times.  Only was able to trump the nonsense when one of them 
> found a hard to read "Made in USA" that my partner had stuck in the etch on a 
> lark.
> 
> Hangup was all the foreign content IC's with "Made in ".  Though 
> less of a problem with older equipment, it might be a problem.
> thanks
> Jim

Good news! We got back across the border without issue...they didn't even ask 
to see the customs forms we had. Unreal. 

On first blush, I don't see any major damage to the drum. It does appear locked 
(either the drum or motor, hard to say at this point). But that may have worked 
to my advantage when the machine was moved from Vancouver. There's a tag on top 
indicating it was adjusted in 1970. 

With 900 more miles to go, it'll be a little while before I can sit down and 
see what the complete situation is. -C 

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Pete Lancashire]

Ran into the same problem about 20 years ago. So now I make sure if
there is nothing on the equip marked Made in the USA, I take along
either an original catalog or manual, one time only had a
advertisement but it is what did the trick.



On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 3:16 PM, jim stephens  wrote:
>
>
> On 12/28/2016 8:38 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Guys, thanks for all the feedback. A challenge? Absolutely. But this is
>> likely as close as I'll ever come to having a first generation machine,
>> something unfathomable to me as a kid.
>>
>> Apologies for the radio-silence, we've put 1200+ miles under our belts
>> since Monday morning. Today we cross into Alberta. Will keep you all posted
>> on how it goes.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Cory
>
> While you are where you can do it, if you are transporting it back, make
> sure that all parts have the Made in USA clearly located for US customs.  I
> encountered some blockheads when I crossed over carrying some material from
> Canada a few times.  Only was able to trump the nonsense when one of them
> found a hard to read "Made in USA" that my partner had stuck in the etch on
> a lark.
>
> Hangup was all the foreign content IC's with "Made in ".  Though
> less of a problem with older equipment, it might be a problem.
> thanks
> Jim
>

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[jim stephens]

On 12/28/2016 8:38 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:


Guys, thanks for all the feedback. A challenge? Absolutely. But this is likely 
as close as I'll ever come to having a first generation machine, something 
unfathomable to me as a kid.

Apologies for the radio-silence, we've put 1200+ miles under our belts since 
Monday morning. Today we cross into Alberta. Will keep you all posted on how it 
goes.

Thanks,
Cory
While you are where you can do it, if you are transporting it back, make 
sure that all parts have the Made in USA clearly located for US 
customs.  I encountered some blockheads when I crossed over carrying 
some material from Canada a few times.  Only was able to trump the 
nonsense when one of them found a hard to read "Made in USA" that my 
partner had stuck in the etch on a lark.


Hangup was all the foreign content IC's with "Made in ".  
Though less of a problem with older equipment, it might be a problem.

thanks
Jim

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[COURYHOUSE]

Indeed the opportunity of a lifetime!
Safe travels! Cory!
Ed#
 
 
 
In a message dated 12/28/2016 9:38:25 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
coryheisterk...@gmail.com writes:


On  Dec 26, 2016, at 8:49 AM, william degnan wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 26,  2016 at 10:37 AM, Christian Corti <
>  c...@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 23 Dec  2016, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
>> 
>>> I recently became  the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working'
>>> condition.  However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and will 
 need
>>> to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are  there any 
special
>>> precautions I should take to ensure its safe  travel. I'm especially 
worried
>>> about the drum (drum lock?),  but haven't been able to find a 
maintenance or
>>> setup  doc.
>>> 
>>> Anyone out there with experience or can  offer a few pointers?
>>> 
>> 
>> - Remove all  tube modules and pack them in boxes (with good padding)
>> - Remove  the drum and stuff/pack it separately (remove the belt going to
>>  the small motor below the drum and unscrew the drum assembly from the  
frame)
>> - Remove all side panels and the cover; there's nothing  more annoying 
than
>> dented panels caused by fixating the frame to  the panel and/or truck.
>> 
>> Do you get software and  manuals with your machine?
>> 
>> Christian
>>  
>> PS: Just found the auction... you paid *WHAT*??? Wow... for a  machine 
in a
>> quite battered shape. What idiot put the heavy  Flexowriter on the 
fragile
>> top?? Where's the cable connecting the  Flexowriter to the computer? Oh, 
and
>> it works without a power  cable... Sorry, I had to make those comments 
;-)
>> Good luck and  enjoy playing with your new computer :-)
>> 
> 
>  
> aw come on :-)  This is a one of a kind thing.  There is a  value in 
knowing
> you have a project that will keep you busy, assuming  you enjoy this kind 
of
> thing, for a long time.  On the other end  will be a lot of new knowledge.
> 
> I have manuals for this  machine, they're out there. I have a neat 
training
> manual that was  used by LGP to train new users.  They really looked at 
this
> thing  to be a personal computer.  This was some may claim by some
>  definition the *first* personal computer.
> 
> Bill

Guys,  thanks for all the feedback. A challenge? Absolutely. But this is 
likely as  close as I'll ever come to having a first generation machine, 
something  unfathomable to me as a kid.

Apologies for the radio-silence, we've put  1200+ miles under our belts 
since Monday morning. Today we cross into Alberta.  Will keep you all posted on 
how it  goes.

Thanks,
Cory=

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Cory Heisterkamp]

On Dec 26, 2016, at 8:49 AM, william degnan wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Christian Corti <
> c...@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 23 Dec 2016, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
>> 
>>> I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working'
>>> condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and will need
>>> to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are there any special
>>> precautions I should take to ensure its safe travel. I'm especially worried
>>> about the drum (drum lock?), but haven't been able to find a maintenance or
>>> setup doc.
>>> 
>>> Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers?
>>> 
>> 
>> - Remove all tube modules and pack them in boxes (with good padding)
>> - Remove the drum and stuff/pack it separately (remove the belt going to
>> the small motor below the drum and unscrew the drum assembly from the frame)
>> - Remove all side panels and the cover; there's nothing more annoying than
>> dented panels caused by fixating the frame to the panel and/or truck.
>> 
>> Do you get software and manuals with your machine?
>> 
>> Christian
>> 
>> PS: Just found the auction... you paid *WHAT*??? Wow... for a machine in a
>> quite battered shape. What idiot put the heavy Flexowriter on the fragile
>> top?? Where's the cable connecting the Flexowriter to the computer? Oh, and
>> it works without a power cable... Sorry, I had to make those comments ;-)
>> Good luck and enjoy playing with your new computer :-)
>> 
> 
> 
> aw come on :-)  This is a one of a kind thing.  There is a value in knowing
> you have a project that will keep you busy, assuming you enjoy this kind of
> thing, for a long time.  On the other end will be a lot of new knowledge.
> 
> I have manuals for this machine, they're out there. I have a neat training
> manual that was used by LGP to train new users.  They really looked at this
> thing to be a personal computer.  This was some may claim by some
> definition the *first* personal computer.
> 
> Bill

Guys, thanks for all the feedback. A challenge? Absolutely. But this is likely 
as close as I'll ever come to having a first generation machine, something 
unfathomable to me as a kid.

Apologies for the radio-silence, we've put 1200+ miles under our belts since 
Monday morning. Today we cross into Alberta. Will keep you all posted on how it 
goes.

Thanks,
Cory

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Christian Corti]

On Mon, 26 Dec 2016, Adam Sampson wrote:

"Underhill Engineering Co Ltd" painted on the top in the eBay pictures
(if you squint) is a bit of a giveaway!


I was only able to see "Under...".


They have a nice page about the machine's history:
http://www.underhill.ca/land-survey-project/15/underhill-engineering-computing-services


Oh, thank you, these are nice pictures :-)

Hmm, I don't find Underhill or Vancouver mentioned in the POOL users list. 
But the list is incomplete. Anyways we would all be interested in the 
serial number if Cory gets a chance to look it up (at the drum side of the 
main frame when you open the cover)
It's nice to see that another LGP-30 is still alive (at least physically) 
;-)


Christian

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Adam Sampson]

Christian Corti  writes:

> If you tell me its serial number I can eventually tell you who
> was/were the previous owner(s) ;-)

"Underhill Engineering Co Ltd" painted on the top in the eBay pictures
(if you squint) is a bit of a giveaway!

They have a nice page about the machine's history:
http://www.underhill.ca/land-survey-project/15/underhill-engineering-computing-services

-- 
Adam Sampson  

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[william degnan]

On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Christian Corti <
c...@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Dec 2016, william degnan wrote:
>
>> Here are my notes on the LGP 30
>> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=596
>>
>
> There are several errors in those notes:
>
>
You addressed me publicly so I will reply publicly.  Several "errors" might
be a few clicks too harsh given a person can get the idea of what I clearly
meant AND I was referring to simH, trying to figure out how to make the
simH of the LGP-30 work.  I don't have an actual machine and don't claim to
be an expert in its use, not the Flexowriter...have a spare?


> - "The basic (hardware) bootstrap in LGP-30 mnemonic format:"
>
> There is no hardware bootstrap.
>
>
I put hardware in parens for a reason.  For me its a way to communicate the
"level" of the bootstrap I could not think of a better way at the time to
describe how it works in *simH*, which is what I was writing about in my
post titled "SIMH Emulator - 1956 LGP-30 Computer".



> - The addresses in the bootstrap loader (program 9.0) must be hexadecimal
> and the bootstrap is entred as follows:
>
> C3W00 - P
> C3W04 - I
> C3W08 - C3W14
> C3W0J - P
> C3W10 - I
> U3W00
>
>
Thanks, good to know.  I was writing from a SIMH standpoint, not the actual
machine.


> - "4-character binary equivalent of the flexowriter single-character ascii
> commands"
>
> Ehm, ASCII wasn't "invented" at that time. There are no Flexowriter
> commands, the Flexowriter code is the LGP-30 code.
>


Yes, but the Flexowriter encoding is not the same as ascii, but ascii is a
common format someone today can relate to and convert from.One can
translate Flexo encoding into ascii and you need to be able to do this to
effectively use SIMH if you don't have a Flexowriter.


>
> - "First "B4627" is converted into binary-coded decimal format and entered
> into the accumulator"
>
> There's no conversion, the character code of the Flexowriter *is* the
> binary code of the LGP-30.
>
>
OK.  I converted in my head to understand it logically while using SIMH,
 This is a necessary step if you want to try to load in a bootstrap into
the simH drum, etc.



> - "The accumulator is actually 64 separate 32-bit accumulators (one for
> each drum track), same value on each copy."
>
> ???
>

Yes but you know what I mean, I am working in a vacuum teaching myself, I
could have been more precise, but that's how I understood it at the time I
wrote what I wrote.



> The accumulator is one track with 32 double-width (i.e. 64 bits) sectors.
> You need the long accumulator when multiplying two 31-bit numbers (you
> can't store a 32 bit number to the memory because the LSB is always 0)
> All the registers are circulating registers meaning that the contents is
> read and immediately written back to ensure that it is accessible at any
> word (sector) time.
>
>
> Everything you need to know about the architecture and programming of the
> machine can be found in the manuals BTW (including schematics, flow charts,
> instruction description etc.). The manuals are online since many many years.
>
> Christian
>


I have all of the manuals.  Basically I sat down at a simH prompt and the
manuals and tried with only that to make sense of the LGP-30.  I take it
you have a machine at  your disposal, I wish I did too.  Thanks for sharing
your knowledge, I will update my web site to make it more accurate.

Bill

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[william degnan]

>
>  They really looked at this thing to be a personal computer.  This was
> some may claim by some definition the *first* personal computer.
>
>
>
>
Note I am being very careful not to call this "the first personal
computer", but it's certainly a personal computer and it was one of the
first stored program computer intended for one operator in real time, etc.
Bill

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[william degnan]

On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Christian Corti <
c...@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Dec 2016, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
>
>> I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working'
>> condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and will need
>> to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are there any special
>> precautions I should take to ensure its safe travel. I'm especially worried
>> about the drum (drum lock?), but haven't been able to find a maintenance or
>> setup doc.
>>
>> Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers?
>>
>
> - Remove all tube modules and pack them in boxes (with good padding)
> - Remove the drum and stuff/pack it separately (remove the belt going to
> the small motor below the drum and unscrew the drum assembly from the frame)
> - Remove all side panels and the cover; there's nothing more annoying than
> dented panels caused by fixating the frame to the panel and/or truck.
>
> Do you get software and manuals with your machine?
>
> Christian
>
> PS: Just found the auction... you paid *WHAT*??? Wow... for a machine in a
> quite battered shape. What idiot put the heavy Flexowriter on the fragile
> top?? Where's the cable connecting the Flexowriter to the computer? Oh, and
> it works without a power cable... Sorry, I had to make those comments ;-)
> Good luck and enjoy playing with your new computer :-)
>


aw come on :-)  This is a one of a kind thing.  There is a value in knowing
you have a project that will keep you busy, assuming you enjoy this kind of
thing, for a long time.  On the other end will be a lot of new knowledge.

I have manuals for this machine, they're out there. I have a neat training
manual that was used by LGP to train new users.  They really looked at this
thing to be a personal computer.  This was some may claim by some
definition the *first* personal computer.

Bill

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Christian Corti]

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working' 
condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and will 
need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are there any 
special precautions I should take to ensure its safe travel. I'm 
especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but haven't been able to 
find a maintenance or setup doc.


Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers?


- Remove all tube modules and pack them in boxes (with good padding)
- Remove the drum and stuff/pack it separately (remove the belt going to 
the small motor below the drum and unscrew the drum assembly from the 
frame)
- Remove all side panels and the cover; there's nothing more annoying than 
dented panels caused by fixating the frame to the panel and/or truck.


Do you get software and manuals with your machine?

Christian

PS: Just found the auction... you paid *WHAT*??? Wow... for a machine in a 
quite battered shape. What idiot put the heavy Flexowriter on the 
fragile top?? Where's the cable connecting the Flexowriter to the 
computer? Oh, and it works without a power cable... Sorry, I had to make 
those comments ;-)

Good luck and enjoy playing with your new computer :-)

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Christian Corti]

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its 
head on classiccmp the past few days. -C


If you tell me its serial number I can eventually tell you who was/were 
the previous owner(s) ;-)


Christian

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[william degnan]

On Dec 25, 2016 9:01 PM, "Al Kossow"  wrote:
>
> and this shows the major assemblies
>
http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/lgp30_40/lgp30_deko.html
>
> On 12/25/16 6:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 12/25/16 2:20 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >>
> >> you'd need to resurrect some bit of software to do anything meaningful.
> >
> >
> > a lot already is on line
> >
> > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/lgp30/
> > ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/lgp30/
> >
>

I have most original manuals and a lot of code and notes toom

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Al Kossow]

and this shows the major assemblies
http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/lgp30_40/lgp30_deko.html

On 12/25/16 6:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
> 
> On 12/25/16 2:20 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>
>> you'd need to resurrect some bit of software to do anything meaningful.
> 
> 
> a lot already is on line
> 
> http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/lgp30/
> ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/lgp30/
> 

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Al Kossow]

On 12/25/16 2:20 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> 
>you'd need to resurrect some bit of software to do anything meaningful.


a lot already is on line

http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/lgp30/
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/lgp30/

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Jon Elson]

On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:

Hi Folks,

I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working'
condition.
I worked just a little bit on a Bendix G-15, a machine from 
about the same vintage.  300 vacuum tubes, about 3000 
silicon (I think) diodes, and a drum.  Really, there are so 
MANY parts in a machine of that vintage that would be really 
tough to get, it could be an incredible project to get it 
running.  The G-15 had an IBM executive typewriter modded as 
the console, with a box of about 50 telephone relays as the 
decode/encode matrix, driven by thyratron tubes.  Our drum 
came pre-scored, I think 3 tracks were grooved down to the 
brass layer.  They had REALLY poor sealing of the drum.  
Part of it was very good, but several large wire bundles 
came in through a drawn aluminum cover with caterpillar 
grommets.  So, no attempt to seal the drum at all, therefore 
lots of dirt got in and packed under the fixed heads.  
Hopefully your LGP-30 has a better arrangement there.


But, lots of connectors, tube sockets, and similar parts may 
be hard to get, not to mention the number of marginal tubes 
that you might need to replace.


I know on the Bendix G-15 the logic was really convoluted, 
to save tubes.  So, they chained several layers of and and 
or gates together before an amplifying tube, to do as much 
logic as possible with each tube.


Then, of course, you'd need to resurrect some bit of 
software to do anything meaningful.  Wow, sounds like a big 
project.


Jon

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Dec-23, at 4:14 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
 Hi Folks,
 
 I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working'
 condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and
 will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are
 there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe
 travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but
 haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc.
 
 Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers?
 
>>> 
>>> Is this the LGP-30 that came up for auction in Canada?
>>> 
>>> Personally, I'd buy a plane ticket and supervise the packing.  There
>>> are,  IIRC, 110 or so tubes, a drum and other goodies that should
>>> probably be removed and shipped separately.   Nothing like getting a box
>>> o' broken glass to make life interesting.
>>> 
> 
> Well, I think you guys have convinced me that a trip is in order. Better safe 
> than sorry with a piece of equipment like this.
> 
> Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its head 
> on classiccmp the past few days. -C

Was this ebayed?

Just found this mention on VCFed from a week ago:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55364-1956-Binary-Desk-Computer-LIBRASCOPE-LGP-30

I see Vancouver is mentioned:
"I've been told that this was the oldest computer in Vancouver"

As a lifelong area resident, I'd be interested in hearing anything known of the 
lineage, where it came from and when it left Vancouver.
Would love to have worked on it if it was once nearby.
Congrats to Cory for the acquisition, should be an exciting project.

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Dec-23, at 4:14 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
 Hi Folks,
 
 I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working'
 condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and
 will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are
 there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe
 travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but
 haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc.
 
 Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers?
 
>>> 
>>> Is this the LGP-30 that came up for auction in Canada?
>>> 
>>> Personally, I'd buy a plane ticket and supervise the packing.  There
>>> are,  IIRC, 110 or so tubes, a drum and other goodies that should
>>> probably be removed and shipped separately.   Nothing like getting a box
>>> o' broken glass to make life interesting.
>>> 
> 
> Well, I think you guys have convinced me that a trip is in order. Better safe 
> than sorry with a piece of equipment like this.
> 
> Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its head 
> on classiccmp the past few days. -C

Was this ebayed?

Just found this mention on VCFed from a week ago:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55364-1956-Binary-Desk-Computer-LIBRASCOPE-LGP-30

I see Vancouver is mentioned:
"I've been told that this was the oldest computer in Vancouver"

As a lifelong area resident, I'd be interested in hearing anything known of the 
lineage, where it came from and when it left Vancouver.
Would love to have worked on it if it was once nearby.
Congrats to Cory for the acquisition, should be an exciting project.

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Brad H]

 Original message 
From: william degnan <billdeg...@gmail.com> 
Date: 2016-12-24  3:35 AM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: cctech <cct...@classiccmp.org> 
Subject: Re: Transporting an LGP-30 

> Well, I think you guys have convinced me that a trip is in order. Better
safe than sorry with a piece of equipment like this.
>
> Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its
head on classiccmp the past few days. -C

Believe me, I for one was interested, and I was in contact with the
seller.   The expense and effort, as much as >I'd love to work on restoring
>this, was too great to pull the trigger.

I thought about it also.  I would have liked to have brought it back to BC and 
kept it here in Canada.  But I began to wonder how it had ended up with these 
guys and talking to them I had my doubts about the amount of care taken in 
moving it around.  And I assumed freight would be insane anyway.  

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[william degnan]

> Well, I think you guys have convinced me that a trip is in order. Better
safe than sorry with a piece of equipment like this.
>
> Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its
head on classiccmp the past few days. -C

Believe me, I for one was interested, and I was in contact with the
seller.   The expense and effort, as much as I'd love to work on restoring
this, was too great to pull the trigger.

What are you going to do with this?  I did not notice if a Flexowriter was
included.

Here are my notes on the LGP 30
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=596

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Cory Heisterkamp]

On Dec 23, 2016, at 1:57 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote:

> I 2nd what Chuck recommended, if that's not an option find someone you 100%
> trust. Anything that shock would hurt, have it removed, then one could find
> a electronic equipment mover. Most of the big moving van companies provide
> that service.
> 
> -pete
> 
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
>> On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
>>> Hi Folks,
>>> 
>>> I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working'
>>> condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and
>>> will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are
>>> there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe
>>> travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but
>>> haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc.
>>> 
>>> Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers?
>>> 
>> 
>> Is this the LGP-30 that came up for auction in Canada?
>> 
>> Personally, I'd buy a plane ticket and supervise the packing.  There
>> are,  IIRC, 110 or so tubes, a drum and other goodies that should
>> probably be removed and shipped separately.   Nothing like getting a box
>> o' broken glass to make life interesting.
>> 
>> --Chuck
>> 
>> 

Well, I think you guys have convinced me that a trip is in order. Better safe 
than sorry with a piece of equipment like this.

Yep Chuck, this is the CA machine. I was surprised it never reared its head on 
classiccmp the past few days. -C

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Paul Koning]

> On Dec 23, 2016, at 3:27 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> One more thought.
> 
> IIRC, there's quite a large motor that's used for the drum (mounted just
> below the drum).   That should be removed and shipped separately also.
> I cannot envision the carnage should that big hunk of iron break loose
> during shipping.

That sounds good if the motor spindle bearings aren't also positioning the drum 
spindle.  The equivalent is generally true for fixed head disks, I don't know 
what drums do.  Obviously if it's belt driven, or if the motor is mounted in 
flexible brackets, then that isn't an issue.

This goes back to the earlier discussion about not dismantling parts that are 
involved in precision alignment.

paul

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[ben]

On 12/23/2016 1:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

One more thought.

IIRC, there's quite a large motor that's used for the drum (mounted just
below the drum).   That should be removed and shipped separately also.
I cannot envision the carnage should that big hunk of iron break loose
during shipping.

--Chuck

 Check the docs, for how to unpack and setup your new ...,
then just reverse that. I see several wooden crates in your future.
Ben.

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Pete Lancashire]

I 2nd what Chuck recommended, if that's not an option find someone you 100%
trust. Anything that shock would hurt, have it removed, then one could find
a electronic equipment mover. Most of the big moving van companies provide
that service.

-pete

On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working'
> > condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and
> > will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are
> > there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe
> > travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but
> > haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc.
> >
> > Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers?
> >
>
> Is this the LGP-30 that came up for auction in Canada?
>
> Personally, I'd buy a plane ticket and supervise the packing.  There
> are,  IIRC, 110 or so tubes, a drum and other goodies that should
> probably be removed and shipped separately.   Nothing like getting a box
> o' broken glass to make life interesting.
>
> --Chuck
>
>

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Chuck Guzis]

One more thought.

IIRC, there's quite a large motor that's used for the drum (mounted just
below the drum).   That should be removed and shipped separately also.
I cannot envision the carnage should that big hunk of iron break loose
during shipping.

--Chuck

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[Chuck Guzis]

On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working'
> condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and
> will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are
> there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe
> travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but
> haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc.
> 
> Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers?
> 

Is this the LGP-30 that came up for auction in Canada?

Personally, I'd buy a plane ticket and supervise the packing.  There
are,  IIRC, 110 or so tubes, a drum and other goodies that should
probably be removed and shipped separately.   Nothing like getting a box
o' broken glass to make life interesting.

--Chuck

Re: Transporting an LGP-30

[william degnan]

take a ski trip while you're there.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Dec 23, 2016 2:46 PM, "Chuck Guzis"  wrote:

> On 12/23/2016 08:06 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working'
> > condition. However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and
> > will need to be transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are
> > there any special precautions I should take to ensure its safe
> > travel. I'm especially worried about the drum (drum lock?), but
> > haven't been able to find a maintenance or setup doc.
> >
> > Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers?
> >
>
> Is this the LGP-30 that came up for auction in Canada?
>
> Personally, I'd buy a plane ticket and supervise the packing.  There
> are,  IIRC, 110 or so tubes, a drum and other goodies that should
> probably be removed and shipped separately.   Nothing like getting a box
> o' broken glass to make life interesting.
>
> --Chuck
>

Transporting an LGP-30

[Cory Heisterkamp]

Hi Folks,

I recently became the owner of an LGP-30, supposedly in 'working' condition. 
However, the machine is roughly 2000 miles from me and will need to be 
transported by freight. Before it's palletized, are there any special 
precautions I should take to ensure its safe travel. I'm especially worried 
about the drum (drum lock?), but haven't been able to find a maintenance or 
setup doc. 

Anyone out there with experience or can offer a few pointers?
 
Thanks,
Cory Heisterkamp