Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Don North]

On 2/24/2016 1:11 PM, Mike Ross wrote:

Why are you using MRSP mode (-m switch)? Do you know that is absolutely
required?

For VAX-11/730 console yes it is absolutely required as far as I know;
everything I've read about people using emulation there says that it
is.

Mike


Yes it appears that is correct. Going back to this thread:
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?36113-Problems-using-tu58em-with-VAX-11-725-VAX-11-730/page13
there was a whole lot of discussion on bringing up a '730 with TU58EM, and the 
updates to it (to fix some time delays)

to support the TU58 device on the '730 with TU58EM.

I have since updated mainline TU58EM to version 1.4m to add Mark Blair's VAX 730 
timing and background mode changes
(enable via -x and -b switches). Source and cygwin executable here: 
https://github.com/AK6DN/tu58em

Functionally this should be the same as Mark's version 1.4j + his changes.

Don

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mike Ross]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Don North  wrote:
> On 2/24/2016 3:43 AM, Mike Ross wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Mike Ross  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
>
> On Feb 21, 2016, at 23:09, Mike Ross  wrote:
> Actually I do have a Mac within easy range of the 730. Could you do me
> a favour and throw a prebuilt OSX binary somewhere I can grab it? I
> have flaky internet in the workshop and this Mac isn't set up with
> Xcode or any other dev environment...

 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29876211/tu58em.zip
>>>
>>> Thanks Mark... I played with this. I built a 3-wire cable; I'm sure I
>>> have it wired right because traffic happens - and if I disconnect, or
>>> switch Rx/Tx, it just sits there but this is as far as it gets:
>>>
>>> MikeUpstairs:~ Imac$ ./tu58 -s 38400 -p /dev/tty.usbserial -d -v -m -x
>>> -r vax73058
>>> info: unit 0 rfile 'vax73058'
>>> info: tu58 tape emulator v1.4j (NF6X fork)
>>> info: (C) 2005-2014 Don North , (C) 1984 Dan
>>> Ts'o 
>>> info: serial port /dev/tty.usbserial at 38400 baud
>>> info: MRSP mode enabled (NOT fully tested - use with caution)
>>> info: TU58 emulation start
>>> info: R restart, S toggle send init, V toggle verbose, D toggle debug, Q
>>> quit
>>> info: emulator started
>>>
>>> (I ctrl-c the VAX)
>>>
>>> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
>>> info:  seen
>>> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
>>> info:  seen
>>> info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
>>> info:  seen
>>> info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
>>> info:  seen
>>> info:  seen, sending 
>>>
>>> (?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)
>>>
>>> (I ctrl-c the VAX again)
>>>
>>> info: flag=0x00 last=0xFF
>>> info:  seen
>>> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
>>> info:  seen
>>> info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
>>> info:  seen
>>> info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
>>> info:  seen
>>> info:  seen, sending 
>>>
>>> (?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)
>>>
>>> (repeat)
>>>
>>> Can you spot me being stupid? Does my command line look sane re.
>>> various options?
>>>
>>> (I've trivially renamed the tape image file for faster typing
>>> otherwise it's straight out of the box)
>>
>> Just for giggles I decided to try Bela Torok's Arduino-based emulator:
>>
>> http://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/tu58/
>>
>> I whipped that up from bits tonight and got it working surprisingly
>> quickly. But the VAX still doesn't want to play; from the behaviour
>> and messages it's falling over at exactly the same place. The Arduino
>> serial console displays:
>>
>> Continue after 2 INIT flags. online!
>>
>> And VAX shows the now-familiar ?27 DEVICE ERROR...
>>
>> Which looks a HELL of a lot like how tu58em is ending. So I don't
>> think the problem is with tu58em...
>>
>> Is there anything I should be looking at on the VAX end here? Any
>> configuration or cabling details that could be screwing things up
>> before I drag the RS232 analyser out? I've tried changing the 'delay'
>> parameter on the Arduino to various values between 0 and 255 to no
>> avail - and I've tried a couple of different tape images in case I got
>> a bad one...
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> http://www.corestore.org
>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>>
>
> Why are you using MRSP mode (-m switch)? Do you know that is absolutely
> required?

For VAX-11/730 console yes it is absolutely required as far as I know;
everything I've read about people using emulation there says that it
is.

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Don North]

On 2/24/2016 3:43 AM, Mike Ross wrote:

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Mike Ross  wrote:

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:

On Feb 21, 2016, at 23:09, Mike Ross  wrote:
Actually I do have a Mac within easy range of the 730. Could you do me
a favour and throw a prebuilt OSX binary somewhere I can grab it? I
have flaky internet in the workshop and this Mac isn't set up with
Xcode or any other dev environment...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29876211/tu58em.zip

Thanks Mark... I played with this. I built a 3-wire cable; I'm sure I
have it wired right because traffic happens - and if I disconnect, or
switch Rx/Tx, it just sits there but this is as far as it gets:

MikeUpstairs:~ Imac$ ./tu58 -s 38400 -p /dev/tty.usbserial -d -v -m -x
-r vax73058
info: unit 0 rfile 'vax73058'
info: tu58 tape emulator v1.4j (NF6X fork)
info: (C) 2005-2014 Don North , (C) 1984 Dan
Ts'o 
info: serial port /dev/tty.usbserial at 38400 baud
info: MRSP mode enabled (NOT fully tested - use with caution)
info: TU58 emulation start
info: R restart, S toggle send init, V toggle verbose, D toggle debug, Q quit
info: emulator started

(I ctrl-c the VAX)

info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
info:  seen
info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
info:  seen
info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
info:  seen
info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
info:  seen
info:  seen, sending 

(?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)

(I ctrl-c the VAX again)

info: flag=0x00 last=0xFF
info:  seen
info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
info:  seen
info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
info:  seen
info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
info:  seen
info:  seen, sending 

(?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)

(repeat)

Can you spot me being stupid? Does my command line look sane re.
various options?

(I've trivially renamed the tape image file for faster typing
otherwise it's straight out of the box)

Just for giggles I decided to try Bela Torok's Arduino-based emulator:

http://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/tu58/

I whipped that up from bits tonight and got it working surprisingly
quickly. But the VAX still doesn't want to play; from the behaviour
and messages it's falling over at exactly the same place. The Arduino
serial console displays:

Continue after 2 INIT flags. online!

And VAX shows the now-familiar ?27 DEVICE ERROR...

Which looks a HELL of a lot like how tu58em is ending. So I don't
think the problem is with tu58em...

Is there anything I should be looking at on the VAX end here? Any
configuration or cabling details that could be screwing things up
before I drag the RS232 analyser out? I've tried changing the 'delay'
parameter on the Arduino to various values between 0 and 255 to no
avail - and I've tried a couple of different tape images in case I got
a bad one...

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'



Why are you using MRSP mode (-m switch)? Do you know that is absolutely 
required?

Re: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)

[jwsmobile]

On 2/24/2016 10:59 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 8:52 PM, jwsmobile  wrote:

For serial I use a Saleae 8 bit analyzer.

[...]

You do have to use a level shifter with the thing because it is designed for
3.3v logic and needs to be adjusted accordingly.

The Saleae Logic Pro 16 (and probably the Logic Pro 8, but I haven't
checked) are designed for an operating input voltage range of +/-10V,
with an abs max rating of +/-25V. Saleae specifically states that it
can be directly connected to RS-232.
We had the analyzers out "bleeding edge" and the originals were not 
differential and were not +5 safe.  They tolerated the differential 0-5 
we had at one point in the circuit, and the engineer I worked with said 
"hm, you are lucky" with that hookup.


I was not using the Pro, that is way late in their product line for me.

their newer 4 channel version does seem to also be differential and 
RS232 voltage level compliant.  (FWIW I was on RS485 differential, line 
levels same as RS232, but function not).


Thanks
Jim

The Logic Pro models are more expensive than the other (amateur?)
models, but support analog input on all channels. I now use a Logic
Pro 16 for most of my simple logic analyzer requirements, but still
use an Agilent 16700 logic analyzer mainframe when I need more than 16
channels.

Re: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)

[Eric Smith]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 8:52 PM, jwsmobile  wrote:
> For serial I use a Saleae 8 bit analyzer.
[...]
> You do have to use a level shifter with the thing because it is designed for
> 3.3v logic and needs to be adjusted accordingly.

The Saleae Logic Pro 16 (and probably the Logic Pro 8, but I haven't
checked) are designed for an operating input voltage range of +/-10V,
with an abs max rating of +/-25V. Saleae specifically states that it
can be directly connected to RS-232.

The Logic Pro models are more expensive than the other (amateur?)
models, but support analog input on all channels. I now use a Logic
Pro 16 for most of my simple logic analyzer requirements, but still
use an Agilent 16700 logic analyzer mainframe when I need more than 16
channels.

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mike Ross]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Mike Ross  wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 23:09, Mike Ross  wrote:
>>> Actually I do have a Mac within easy range of the 730. Could you do me
>>> a favour and throw a prebuilt OSX binary somewhere I can grab it? I
>>> have flaky internet in the workshop and this Mac isn't set up with
>>> Xcode or any other dev environment...
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29876211/tu58em.zip
>
> Thanks Mark... I played with this. I built a 3-wire cable; I'm sure I
> have it wired right because traffic happens - and if I disconnect, or
> switch Rx/Tx, it just sits there but this is as far as it gets:
>
> MikeUpstairs:~ Imac$ ./tu58 -s 38400 -p /dev/tty.usbserial -d -v -m -x
> -r vax73058
> info: unit 0 rfile 'vax73058'
> info: tu58 tape emulator v1.4j (NF6X fork)
> info: (C) 2005-2014 Don North , (C) 1984 Dan
> Ts'o 
> info: serial port /dev/tty.usbserial at 38400 baud
> info: MRSP mode enabled (NOT fully tested - use with caution)
> info: TU58 emulation start
> info: R restart, S toggle send init, V toggle verbose, D toggle debug, Q quit
> info: emulator started
>
> (I ctrl-c the VAX)
>
> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
> info:  seen
> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
> info:  seen
> info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
> info:  seen
> info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
> info:  seen
> info:  seen, sending 
>
> (?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)
>
> (I ctrl-c the VAX again)
>
> info: flag=0x00 last=0xFF
> info:  seen
> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
> info:  seen
> info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
> info:  seen
> info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
> info:  seen
> info:  seen, sending 
>
> (?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)
>
> (repeat)
>
> Can you spot me being stupid? Does my command line look sane re.
> various options?
>
> (I've trivially renamed the tape image file for faster typing
> otherwise it's straight out of the box)

Just for giggles I decided to try Bela Torok's Arduino-based emulator:

http://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/tu58/

I whipped that up from bits tonight and got it working surprisingly
quickly. But the VAX still doesn't want to play; from the behaviour
and messages it's falling over at exactly the same place. The Arduino
serial console displays:

Continue after 2 INIT flags. online!

And VAX shows the now-familiar ?27 DEVICE ERROR...

Which looks a HELL of a lot like how tu58em is ending. So I don't
think the problem is with tu58em...

Is there anything I should be looking at on the VAX end here? Any
configuration or cabling details that could be screwing things up
before I drag the RS232 analyser out? I've tried changing the 'delay'
parameter on the Arduino to various values between 0 and 255 to no
avail - and I've tried a couple of different tape images in case I got
a bad one...

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)

[jwsmobile]

On 2/23/2016 7:11 PM, Curious Marc wrote:

I was wondering if I should add a 4952 to my HP collection. It's tempting, 
these are cute machines. But except if I am using synchronous RS232, I was not 
sure what I would getting that a laptop with a good terminal emulator and a 
serial port would give me. Can you convince me otherwise? What do you guys use 
it for?
Marc


On Feb 22, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Jay West  wrote:


I've always eyed the 4952... being as my penchant is HP and much of my test
equipment is same-vintage HP gear (I'll give a vote for the 1631D logic
analyzer, combo LA and digital scope - the scope is sorta poor, but handy -
the LA is great for what I work on).

However, I spent a significant portion of my career in front of a serial
analyzer so I'm pretty familiar with them [...]

J
For serial I use a Saleae 8 bit analyzer.  It is an 8 bit logic 
analyzer, but that just means you get 8 capture channels.


It will do any combination of serial, I2C, and SPI out of the box. CAN 
bus is extra.  Recording capacity is till the disk fills up.


You can export traces to files of text.

You do have to use a level shifter with the thing because it is designed 
for 3.3v logic and needs to be adjusted accordingly.


A note on knockoffs.  Please buy the original if you can, as the company 
has not cut off the use of their software with knockoffs of the 
analyzer.  (Off topic of this thread, open new thread if it is something 
to reply to, please)


Thanks
jim

RE: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)

[Jay West]

Marc wrote

 I was not sure what I would getting that a laptop with a good terminal
emulator and a serial port would give me. Can you convince me otherwise?
What do you guys use it for?
-
Perhaps there are terminal emulators out there that can do the following,
but I'm not aware of any that do these things that are the most common use
cases

1) Display transmit on one line and receive on the other line, positionally
correct. Very easy to visually see what one side sent, and what the other
side replied.
2) Display the characters not just in ascii text, but in ascii mnemonics,
and better yet... binary, octal, hex. FAR easier to see what is REALLY being
transmitted and received. Ex - so if the unit is set to 81N, are the parity
bits right? You can tell visually at a glance without really thinking.
3) And given the display can be in binary, it's easy to see field values
that do not align on even count positions - ex: 8 bits where the first 3
bits mean something in the protocol, and the next field is 5 bits, etc.
4) Automatically trigger on events - ex. Watch the line until you see this
sequence from the DCE. Then insert this string as a reply, wait for this
response, then let the DTE continue. Oh, and start logging if this pattern
occurs 3 times.
5) Automatically calculate checksums by any one of a designated set of
algorithms, and verify the checksums being sent and received. Start logging,
up to 2K size, once a checksum mismatch occurs.
6) Run BERT tests to either side.
7) Often provide a breakout box to jumper and/or reroute wires.
8) Save data to a disk for later review, or print to paper.
9) Easily deal with async, sync, bsync, x.25, etc.


When writing your own communications protocols, a datascope makes
testing/troubleshooting a very quick process. The alternative ... not so
much.

Many decades ago, I had a program for DOS (that I have since lost) called
"Breakout II". It came with a cable and required two serial ports. It was a
"software" breakout box. It was sorta handy... but it was no datascope.

J
 

Re: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)

[Curious Marc]

I was wondering if I should add a 4952 to my HP collection. It's tempting, 
these are cute machines. But except if I am using synchronous RS232, I was not 
sure what I would getting that a laptop with a good terminal emulator and a 
serial port would give me. Can you convince me otherwise? What do you guys use 
it for?
Marc

> On Feb 22, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Jay West  wrote:
> 
> 
> I've always eyed the 4952... being as my penchant is HP and much of my test
> equipment is same-vintage HP gear (I'll give a vote for the 1631D logic
> analyzer, combo LA and digital scope - the scope is sorta poor, but handy -
> the LA is great for what I work on).
> 
> However, I spent a significant portion of my career in front of a serial
> analyzer so I'm pretty familiar with them [...]
> 
> J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

RE: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)

[Jay West]

I had written...
> Just my 2 millidollars worth...

To which Tony replied
--
Don't you mean 20 millidollars?
--

I'd have intended to say 2 centidollars... but if I say I meant 20
millidollars then I can claim it was merely a typo and I dropped the 0
*cough*

J

RE: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)

[tony duell]

> 
> I've always eyed the 4952... being as my penchant is HP and much of my test
> equipment is same-vintage HP gear (I'll give a vote for the 1631D logic
> analyzer, combo LA and digital scope - the scope is sorta poor, but handy -
> the LA is great for what I work on).

I would love to find the upgrade kit to turn my 1630 into a 1631, but they are
not exactly common.

> However, I spent a significant portion of my career in front of a serial
> analyzer so I'm pretty familiar with them. As much as I really WANT the 4952
> to be "it", it isn't - for me. Mainly because I have found that having a
> unfolding or removable (or permanently in the usual spot) keyboard takes up
> far too much bench space - or is unusable when standing the unit upright
> (very often it was convenient to set the LA on the floor and on the models I
> use - the keyboard and screen face straight up).

Right... That is an interesting point. With the sorts of machines we work on
you want to take the test gear to the machine and not vice versa and there
is often nowhere convenient to put a large instrument

I was given a unit badged by Black Box (I can get the details which is almost
small enough to be handheld. It has an 8 line LCD display (in monitor mode, 
alternate lines give the data in each direction, one is in inverse video so it's
quite clear) and a membrane keyboard with nice clicky metal domes. I forget
the internals, but it's something like a Z180, nothing really custom apart from
the ROM. One oddity is the power switch, which is both a slide switch (to 
completly disconnect the battery) and keys on the keyboard. Given that the
RAM contents (data and config) are backed up by a lithium coin cell even when
the slide switch is turned off, it is not clear why they did it this way. I 
suspect
the HP units do rather more, but this does everything I need apart from not
going down to 50 (or 45.45) baud.

[...]

> Just my 2 millidollars worth...

Don't you mean 20 millidollars?

-tony

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mike Ross]

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
>
>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 23:09, Mike Ross  wrote:
>> Actually I do have a Mac within easy range of the 730. Could you do me
>> a favour and throw a prebuilt OSX binary somewhere I can grab it? I
>> have flaky internet in the workshop and this Mac isn't set up with
>> Xcode or any other dev environment...
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29876211/tu58em.zip

Thanks Mark... I played with this. I built a 3-wire cable; I'm sure I
have it wired right because traffic happens - and if I disconnect, or
switch Rx/Tx, it just sits there but this is as far as it gets:

MikeUpstairs:~ Imac$ ./tu58 -s 38400 -p /dev/tty.usbserial -d -v -m -x
-r vax73058
info: unit 0 rfile 'vax73058'
info: tu58 tape emulator v1.4j (NF6X fork)
info: (C) 2005-2014 Don North , (C) 1984 Dan
Ts'o 
info: serial port /dev/tty.usbserial at 38400 baud
info: MRSP mode enabled (NOT fully tested - use with caution)
info: TU58 emulation start
info: R restart, S toggle send init, V toggle verbose, D toggle debug, Q quit
info: emulator started

(I ctrl-c the VAX)

info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
info:  seen
info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
info:  seen
info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
info:  seen
info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
info:  seen
info:  seen, sending 

(?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)

(I ctrl-c the VAX again)

info: flag=0x00 last=0xFF
info:  seen
info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
info:  seen
info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
info:  seen
info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
info:  seen
info:  seen, sending 

(?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)

(repeat)

Can you spot me being stupid? Does my command line look sane re.
various options?

(I've trivially renamed the tape image file for faster typing
otherwise it's straight out of the box)

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mike Ross]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
>
>> On Feb 22, 2016, at 16:12 , Mike Ross  wrote:
>>
>> Mark am I missing something or is there no make option for Linux in your
>> tweaked tu58em?
>
> I think you simply type "make" to build it on a unix-like system (e.g., 
> Linux).

...which blows up immediately with large numbers of errors and
warnings when it gets to serial.c - looks like it's hardcoded for
Windows header files. No worries I'll puzzle it out; the main branch
tu58em builds cleanly with no issues on Linux.

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Feb 22, 2016, at 16:12 , Mike Ross  wrote:
> 
> Mark am I missing something or is there no make option for Linux in your
> tweaked tu58em?

I think you simply type "make" to build it on a unix-like system (e.g., Linux).


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mike Ross]

Mark am I missing something or is there no make option for Linux in your
tweaked tu58em?

Mike
On Feb 23, 2016 4:28 AM, "Mark J. Blair"  wrote:

>
> > On Feb 22, 2016, at 02:50, tony duell  wrote:
> >
> > The pinouts are the same, the printset of course gives details of the
> latter. It's
> > RS232 levels, TxD, RxD, Ground, and it is 38400 baud.
>
> I didn't get around to examining the wiring in my VAX last night, but I
> determined the wiring from the TU58 manual, anyway.
>
> When I was debugging the connection between my VAX and tu58em on my Mac, I
> ended up buying an old serial protocol analyzer. Notably, I specifically
> avoided one with the same type of tape drive; I got one with a nice,
> reliable 3.5" floppy drive! ;)
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

RE: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)

[Jay West]

I've always eyed the 4952... being as my penchant is HP and much of my test
equipment is same-vintage HP gear (I'll give a vote for the 1631D logic
analyzer, combo LA and digital scope - the scope is sorta poor, but handy -
the LA is great for what I work on).

However, I spent a significant portion of my career in front of a serial
analyzer so I'm pretty familiar with them. As much as I really WANT the 4952
to be "it", it isn't - for me. Mainly because I have found that having a
unfolding or removable (or permanently in the usual spot) keyboard takes up
far too much bench space - or is unusable when standing the unit upright
(very often it was convenient to set the LA on the floor and on the models I
use - the keyboard and screen face straight up).

The ones I use these days are a Spectron D101 or D101X (I have them both).
See http://ebay.com/itm/262261970901

The one I used for work projects - don't own - and may buy soon... is a
Spectron D2000 which for some reason is labeled in this auction as a
"Telenex AR Datascope 2000". See http://ebay.com/itm/301859511695

Since either of these have a front panel that is "on the front" and doesn't
stick out at all... they seem to work better real-estate-wise sitting on the
bench facing towards me, or sitting on the ground on the end -
screen/keyboard facing up - so they are more accessible when working on a
system.

Just my 2 millidollars worth...

J

Re: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)

[Ethan Dicks]

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
> The bigger picture:
>
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/701796809413304320

Nice!

We had a couple 4951s set up at all times, mostly for sync debugging
of our own products, but occasionally, we stuck them between two
machines running Kermit or Blast or some other async transfer program
to figure out why they weren't happy.  We had one RS-232 and one combo
RS-232/differential (2 connectors) pod.  I see a few cheap machines on
eBay, but they are missing the pod cover.  Good for parts, but without
finding/fabricating an external interface, not immediately useful.
The complete machines seem to still fetch a pretty penny.

Great series of machines.

-ethan

Re: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)

[Mark J. Blair]

The bigger picture:

https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/701796809413304320


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Feb 22, 2016, at 07:35, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
>> When I was debugging the connection between my VAX and tu58em on my Mac, I 
>> ended up buying an old serial protocol analyzer. Notably, I specifically 
>> avoided one with the same type of tape drive; I got one with a nice, 
>> reliable 3.5" floppy drive! ;)
> 
> HP 4952?

Good guess!

https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/701796162223779840


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Feb 22, 2016, at 02:50, tony duell  wrote:
> 
> The pinouts are the same, the printset of course gives details of the latter. 
> It's
> RS232 levels, TxD, RxD, Ground, and it is 38400 baud.

I didn't get around to examining the wiring in my VAX last night, but I 
determined the wiring from the TU58 manual, anyway.

When I was debugging the connection between my VAX and tu58em on my Mac, I 
ended up buying an old serial protocol analyzer. Notably, I specifically 
avoided one with the same type of tape drive; I got one with a nice, reliable 
3.5" floppy drive! ;)

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)

[Ethan Dicks]

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
> When I was debugging the connection between my VAX and tu58em on my Mac, I 
> ended up buying an old serial protocol analyzer. Notably, I specifically 
> avoided one with the same type of tape drive; I got one with a nice, reliable 
> 3.5" floppy drive! ;)

HP 4952?  I have two with tapes from the old days (they contain a
formatter, and we did wipe some scratch tapes for storage of our
analyzer programs, including a PU Type 2 BIND simulator that filled
the program memory, but it worked well enough for us to debug SNA BIND
sequences in the absence of a real PU Type 4).

-ethan

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Feb 21, 2016, at 23:09, Mike Ross  wrote:
> Actually I do have a Mac within easy range of the 730. Could you do me
> a favour and throw a prebuilt OSX binary somewhere I can grab it? I
> have flaky internet in the workshop and this Mac isn't set up with
> Xcode or any other dev environment...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29876211/tu58em.zip


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

RE: VAX 11/730 quickie

[tony duell]

> > On Feb 21, 2016, at 14:41 , Mike Ross  wrote:
> > Thanks for that. Are you able to provide confirmed working details &
> > pinouts for the cable? IIRC it was just three wire; Rx/Tx/Gnd? Would
> > help if I could have confirmed working setup there.
> 
> I'll need to dig inside my machine to verify the wiring; I'll try to remember 
> to
>  do that sometime today. I'm pretty sure that it's a simple 3-wire connection
> at 38400 baud.

It is. There are 2 positions you can connect the TU58 to the 11/730 CPU, both 
10 pin headers. One is on the backplane, the other is on the WCS board. The
latter is used in whichever version it is that has the CPU in a more 
conventional
box (boards standing vertically) with the TU58 mounted in the rack cabinet.

The pinouts are the same, the printset of course gives details of the latter. 
It's
RS232 levels, TxD, RxD, Ground, and it is 38400 baud.

-tony

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mike Ross]

(replies inline)

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 9:27 AM, tony duell  wrote:
>
>> Well I haven't figured out exactly what the problem was but I'm
>> embarrassed to report it was indeed serial comms finger trouble. I
>
> I have found that those little in-line RS232 testers with 7 or so bicolour
> LEDs monitoring the important signals are very useful when working on
> a machine with a serial terminal. If you get flickering on the TxD or RxD
> LEDs then it is sending something.

Yes and I usually use such; I have an assortment of things from inline
testers to breakout boxes to Tektronic analysers. But this hookup was
so simple and obvious nothing could go wrong (!)

>> could have sworn that VT220 was fine and the cable wired correctly...
>> but to cover all bases I tried it with a USB serial port on the Mac
>> that sits in the lab.
>>
>> It worked.
>>
>> First time.
>>
>> CONV011
>
> There should be a pause between the 'CONV0' and the '11' IIRC

Indeed that's how it comes up. Very short pause since I have most of
the memory out as part of potential gotcha elimination - and the last
two tests are memory tests IIRC; they take a little longer.

> You should then get 2 lines of read errors for DD1 and DD0 in that
> order. If you get a 'Device Error' then the TU58 controller is not
> responding at all, either it is not plugged in or it has serious problems.

Yep that was shown in the link I gave. In text it's:

CONV011
?27  READ ERROR DD1
?27  READ ERROR DD0
ROM>^C

?27  READ ERROR DD1
?27  READ ERROR DD0
ROM>

> I have 2 genuine 11/730 console tapes. Not that it does me any good, they
> both have dropouts and are shedding oxide. The output of the read amplifier
> in the TU58 is 'interesting' shall we say.
>
> I am currently rebulding a standalone TU58. My aim is to somehow find a good
> tape (the hard part) and then to dump an 11/730 console tape image to it. That
> means writing some kind of program to talk to the TU58 (another hard part).

I did wonder how one might go about writing a tape image to a physical
tape... I'm happy to get the thing loaded via the emulator for now -
but I'd like to get real working tapes eventually.

If it helps your 'hard part' I have at least a couple of brand new
TU58 tapes - still sealed in plastic wrap...

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mike Ross]

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
>
>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 02:57 , Mike Ross  wrote:
>>
>> Looking back at a long
>> thread on vintage-computers last year it appears that tu58em had
>> timing issues and was unusable on 11/730 but is now patched and
>> working correctly... watch this space!
>
> As a recap, I made a fork of tu58em which adds -x/--vax flags to work around 
> a timing issue that I encountered when using it with my VAX-11/730:
>
> https://github.com/NF6X/tu58em/tree/nf6x
>
> I was running tu58em on a Mac. I don't know if the same timing issue is 
> present when running tu58em on other platforms. If you want to try my 
> modified fork, make sure you pull code from the nf6x branch instead of the 
> master branch; the master branch contains the unmodified tu58em code that I 
> patched.

Mark,

Actually I do have a Mac within easy range of the 730. Could you do me
a favour and throw a prebuilt OSX binary somewhere I can grab it? I
have flaky internet in the workshop and this Mac isn't set up with
Xcode or any other dev environment...

Thanks

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 2/20/2016 7:03 PM, Mike Ross wrote:

I might just try all switches *closed* on the basis that maybe it was
wired wrong but... no doesn't make sense; the system would have been
operational when decommissioned; the switch settings as I received it
must be valid...


Make sure the switches are actually working.  Often, they're not.

- J.

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mike Ross]

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 8:23 AM, tony duell  wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> red lights. The baud rate switches are set for 4800 - the default.
>
> Eh? There is no way to set it for 4800 baud (the installation manual,
> printset, and my tests all agree on what baud rates are available).
>
> How do you have the switches set?

I just double checked. 3 was open; 4 was closed. That's default 2400.

Switch 8 was also closed; I have no idea of its function. All other
switches were open.

I set ALL switches to open - including 3 & 8. 3 & 4 open gives 9600
baud. I have no idea what setting 8 open does - but it didn't change
behaviour. Still nothing on console. G.

I might just try all switches *closed* on the basis that maybe it was
wired wrong but... no doesn't make sense; the system would have been
operational when decommissioned; the switch settings as I received it
must be valid...

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

RE: VAX 11/730 quickie

[tony duell]

[...]

> red lights. The baud rate switches are set for 4800 - the default.

Eh? There is no way to set it for 4800 baud (the installation manual,
printset, and my tests all agree on what baud rates are available).

How do you have the switches set? 

Note that if switch 2 (of the DIP switch at location E47 on the WCS 
board which is the one that controls the console baud rate) is closed
then the 8085 consol processor is held in a wait state. If you have done
this then of course you will get nothing on the terminal.

-tony

RE: VAX 11/730 quickie

[tony duell]

> > Of course I don't know mine works, I need to get a working TU58 tape...

Perhaps I should have been a bit clearer, it does pass the console POST,
then gives read errors on both drives (as there is no tape in them), then
gives the ROM> prompt. So mine is getting further than yours, but until
I have a working microcode tape, I don't know how much of the rest of 
the machine is good.

> That's good to know on the LEDs. Yes I checked the PSU first; three
> red lights. The baud rate switches are set for 4800 - the default.

OK... Sounds like your PSU is OK. But worth checking the voltages 
just in case!

> think I have the console cable correct - and just in case I buggered
> the Rx/Tx I tried it with them swapped. Nothing. Never so much as a

When I was routing the cables in my machine (as I was rack-mounting it, 
I had to put the R80, RL02, console, remote diagnostics, TS05 and
DMF32 cables all in at once), I actually buzzed out a few non-ground
connections between connectors on the distibution panel and IC pins
on the right board (from the printset) just to be sure I hadn't got them
mixed up or turned over or anything. It might be worth just checking
that the RS232 chips on the WCS board do connect to the pins on the
terminal you think they go to.

I don't want to 'teach you to suck eggs' (especially since I think you've
been doing this longer than I have) but bitter experience has taught me
that checking 'the obvious' as you go along means you only have real
faults to trace.

> Anything you can tell me about  the POST on your machine - the timing
> - what appears on the console and when etc. - would be helpful.

I will turn mine on later to check. IIRC it prints the first 4 or so characters 
of
the header line, then pauses (RAM check I think), then the rest of the line,
then the device error messages with a short pause between them, then
the ROM> prompt (from which you can only enter ctrl-C to try to re-read the
tape). One of the manuals on bitsavers (I think it's the diagnostic manual)
explains this, and mine seems to do what the manual says.

Have you checked signals round the 8085 yet? Is it being held reset? Is it
clocking, accessing ROM, etc?

> I plan to use an Arduino-based TU58 emulator when the time comes =
> although I would like real working TU58s too!

I am more interested in having an 'original' machine than a machine to
run VMS on :-). What I mean by that is that I do want to have the TU58
working, rather than some replacement for it. I have replaced the drive 
pucks, in fact I've just been turning another pair for my standalone 
TU58 (which I will use to write a console tape if I can ever find a good
cartridge). The console tape I have has dropouts, is shedding oxide,
etc. The read waveform looks horrible.

I have socketed the 8155 I/O chip in both TU58s (11/730 CPU and 
standalone). If I pull it, I can ground pins on the socket to select
a drive, start the motor, control speed (normal or seeking), direction
etc. I can then use a 'scope on the output of a read amplfier or
a logic analyser around the data separator to see what is going
on. Just got to keep an eye on how far the tape has gone so I
can reverse it before it runs off the end.

If I was going to use a solid-state replacement for the tape I would
probably use the original controller board, put the 8155 on a 
daughterboard plugged into the 8155 socket on the controller, 
use the port pins of the 8155 to link to some kind of flash memory
device and re-write the 8085 firmware. At least then it would be partly
the original. Using a processor with more components than the rest of
the machine (perhaps I exagerate...) seems a bit silly.

-tony

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mike Ross]

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 1:56 AM, tony duell  wrote:
>>
>> See row of red LEDs on M8391? On power-up the leftmost LED lights and
>> goes out. Then the rightmost two LEDs light and stay on...
>
> I can't remember exactly what mine does, but I do remember 2 LEDs at one
> end being on when it settles down. So I think yours is probably OK.
>
> Of course I don't know mine works, I need to get a working TU58 tape...

That's good to know on the LEDs. Yes I checked the PSU first; three
red lights. The baud rate switches are set for 4800 - the default.
think I have the console cable correct - and just in case I buggered
the Rx/Tx I tried it with them swapped. Nothing. Never so much as a
garbage character on the terminal - and I know the terminal works ok!
Nothing funky in the settings there as far as I can see.

Anything you can tell me about  the POST on your machine - the timing
- what appears on the console and when etc. - would be helpful.

I plan to use an Arduino-based TU58 emulator when the time comes =
although I would like real working TU58s too!

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

RE: VAX 11/730 quickie

[tony duell]

> 
> See row of red LEDs on M8391? On power-up the leftmost LED lights and
> goes out. Then the rightmost two LEDs light and stay on...

I can't remember exactly what mine does, but I do remember 2 LEDs at one 
end being on when it settles down. So I think yours is probably OK.

Of course I don't know mine works, I need to get a working TU58 tape...

-tony

RE: VAX 11/730 quickie

[tony duell]

> Just started working on mine - been a back-burnered project for a long
> time. Unfortunately all the cables were cut when it was dismantled; I
> was lucky to grab just the CPU.

I had to re-fit all the cables on mine (a painful job), but at least I had them
all, uncut.

> Got it powered up ok - no drama there. I faked cables to the port on

Are all 3 LEDs on the PSU distribution board (under the transparent cover
at the top rear of the PSU) glowing? If not, you have a PSU problem.

> the WCS which drives the console and hooked up my trust VT220 at 2400
> baud. Nada. No self-test prompt; no ROM> prompt.

The oriignal console cable was a straight through ribbon cable with a header
socket (to fit the WCS board) at one end and a DB25 plug at the other. It plugs
into a filter module on the distibution panel, again straight through with a 
DB25
plug on the outside. This is wired as a DTE (terminal), you need a null modem
cable. Only pins 1,2,3,7 are used, the official cable (I had to make a copy of 
it)
wires 1 and 7 straght through, swaps 2 and 3 and swaps 6 and 20, but you don't
need the last pair.

Have you set the DIP switch on the WCS board correctly? You can certainly have 
300,
1200,2400 or 9600 baud. IIRC some of the other switches do very odd things, so 
make
sure they are set as the manual says.

I assume you have checked you are plugged into the console port and not the 
remote diagnostic port.

> Maybe I've messed up the faked console cable; I'll check - already
> tried obvious things like making sure Rx & Tx were crossed (it's a
> three wire cable according to the schematics - Rx Tx Gnd; no flow
> control). But I'd like to know more about the assorted LEDs on the CPU
> boards; maybe there's a clue there if it's not getting far enough into
> the self-test to display console output. There's a fair few LEDs on
> the M8391. But the doc I've looked through on Bitsavers doesn't seem
> to document their meanings and interpretations. Can anyone help on
> that point?

They're shown on page 208 of the printset on bitsavers. They display
the memory controller microcode address (nothing to do with the CPU
microcode, the memory controller has its own ROM firmware). I don't
think the memory controller is used by the console ROMs, so I doubt
if this is the problem.

Start by checking the power supply rails (if you haven't already done so),
then see if the 8085 console processor is running, and if it tries to access
the console serial chip.

-tony

Re: VAX 11/730 quickie

[Mike Ross]

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Mike Ross  wrote:
> Just started working on mine - been a back-burnered project for a long
> time. Unfortunately all the cables were cut when it was dismantled; I
> was lucky to grab just the CPU.
>
> Got it powered up ok - no drama there. I faked cables to the port on
> the WCS which drives the console and hooked up my trust VT220 at 2400
> baud. Nada. No self-test prompt; no ROM> prompt.
>
> Maybe I've messed up the faked console cable; I'll check - already
> tried obvious things like making sure Rx & Tx were crossed (it's a
> three wire cable according to the schematics - Rx Tx Gnd; no flow
> control). But I'd like to know more about the assorted LEDs on the CPU
> boards; maybe there's a clue there if it's not getting far enough into
> the self-test to display console output. There's a fair few LEDs on
> the M8391. But the doc I've looked through on Bitsavers doesn't seem
> to document their meanings and interpretations. Can anyone help on
> that point?
>
> Hopefully this link works:
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208521465663997=867897c786

OK apparently link didn't work... here's the pic:

http://www.corestore.org/730boardsLEDs.jpg

See row of red LEDs on M8391? On power-up the leftmost LED lights and
goes out. Then the rightmost two LEDs light and stay on...

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'