Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, et...@757.org wrote: I had one of those tools and it ran about $70. You had to buy a separate one for each size and pin count. Could add up. It was all pretty tight size wise, machining it would be possible if you precision tools but I don't think you could make one easily with a dremel grinding wheel or anything. As an analogy, . . . if you had a system that could image 8", 5.25", 3.5" diskettes, hard and soft-sector, there would still be a FEW with further complications (such as 3.0", 3.25", 100tpi, or edge indexed 8"), but you would be able to do MOST of what you would want to do. In fairness, maybe in the analogy, we would be stuck with only being able to do soft-sector, thus admitting to existence of more numerous variants that would need to be acknowledged. Such a system would tend to be adequate for ALMOST everything.
Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #
The commercial tools are just a tube with slots and sliders, with variable friction. Almost trivial to make your own (as I did in High School), although a well machined one will be a joy to use. As such, sometimes just sliding that into the lock (WITH THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF TORQUE) will get each pin to stop when it aligns. On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, et...@757.org wrote: I had one of those tools and it ran about $70. You had to buy a separate one for each size and pin count. Could add up. It was all pretty tight size wise, machining it would be possible if you precision tools but I don't think you could make one easily with a dremel grinding wheel or anything. Having a complete set for ALL tubular locks, not just Chicago Ace, would require a lot. Not so for the COMMON ones. Other outside diameters are quite rare. 99+%? are 7 pin with 7.0, 7.3, 7.5, or 7.8mm center hole, and with the Chicago Ace standard depths. Using a 7.5mm center hole tool on a 7.3 lock requires a little more skill, or figuring out a way to shim the center hole. A set of 3: 7.0, 7.5, 7.8 on eBay, . . . in the "race to the bottom", you can find the set of 3 for $20! MORE, if you want quality. I was trying to talk a friend into starting a website where you could order tubular keys cut by robot by number but he didn't seem interested. *shrug* There already are mail-order code-cutting locksmiths Do they get enough volume to call for automating it more than a worker confirming the center hole size and setting the 7 depths?
Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #
Having the sleeve to keep it from over rotating makes more sense when it has that dud pin. You don't want to bump that pin so it would have more relief. If you over rotated, you'd need another key with the dud pin in the new location. That would be a pain for doing each position with a new key. Dwight From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 6:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # The idea is not to pick it open but to make a key. Once you've rotated half way between two pins, you can remove the tool and measure the heights of the pins. I like the idea of having a limiter sleeve on the outside to ride in the slot. Dwight From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 6:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Fred is probably right but it would be fun to try a bump key on these. > It would be a lot simpler to make. You just take a blank key and cut > each pin location deep enough so when fully engaged it would push the > pins in about 1/16 inch. Then grind the piece that locks in in until > fully turned off. Then one would put some rubber washers on it so that > it just lifts off the pins from the washers lifting it. > One could most likely tension by hand but like Fred says, one could > easily over shoot and then have to pick it again. How about making it with two concentric tubes; one operating, and an outer partial one that locks to the outer notch, with a slider between the tubes, so that you are applying tension to the inner tube, but the outer one limits you to not making it as far as the next pin position. But, for use as an unlocking tool, you do need to turn more than one pin position, often as much as 90 degrees. So, though it would pick the lock, you WOULD need to repeat. Please let us know how it goes! I'm a bit overdue on machining a better version of the conventional one - calibrated pin positions, better adjustment of resistance including solid locking of them, including being able to work with and without detents at the standard cut depths. Lack of necessity is the mother of procrastination!
Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #
The commercial tools are just a tube with slots and sliders, with variable friction. Almost trivial to make your own (as I did in High School), although a well machined one will be a joy to use. As such, sometimes just sliding that into the lock (WITH THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF TORQUE) will get each pin to stop when it aligns. I had one of those tools and it ran about $70. You had to buy a separate one for each size and pin count. Could add up. It was all pretty tight size wise, machining it would be possible if you precision tools but I don't think you could make one easily with a dremel grinding wheel or anything. I was trying to talk a friend into starting a website where you could order tubular keys cut by robot by number but he didn't seem interested. *shrug* -- : Ethan O'Toole
Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #
The idea is not to pick it open but to make a key. Once you've rotated half way between two pins, you can remove the tool and measure the heights of the pins. I like the idea of having a limiter sleeve on the outside to ride in the slot. Dwight From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 6:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Fred is probably right but it would be fun to try a bump key on these. > It would be a lot simpler to make. You just take a blank key and cut > each pin location deep enough so when fully engaged it would push the > pins in about 1/16 inch. Then grind the piece that locks in in until > fully turned off. Then one would put some rubber washers on it so that > it just lifts off the pins from the washers lifting it. > One could most likely tension by hand but like Fred says, one could > easily over shoot and then have to pick it again. How about making it with two concentric tubes; one operating, and an outer partial one that locks to the outer notch, with a slider between the tubes, so that you are applying tension to the inner tube, but the outer one limits you to not making it as far as the next pin position. But, for use as an unlocking tool, you do need to turn more than one pin position, often as much as 90 degrees. So, though it would pick the lock, you WOULD need to repeat. Please let us know how it goes! I'm a bit overdue on machining a better version of the conventional one - calibrated pin positions, better adjustment of resistance including solid locking of them, including being able to work with and without detents at the standard cut depths. Lack of necessity is the mother of procrastination!
Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #
On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: Fred is probably right but it would be fun to try a bump key on these. It would be a lot simpler to make. You just take a blank key and cut each pin location deep enough so when fully engaged it would push the pins in about 1/16 inch. Then grind the piece that locks in in until fully turned off. Then one would put some rubber washers on it so that it just lifts off the pins from the washers lifting it. One could most likely tension by hand but like Fred says, one could easily over shoot and then have to pick it again. How about making it with two concentric tubes; one operating, and an outer partial one that locks to the outer notch, with a slider between the tubes, so that you are applying tension to the inner tube, but the outer one limits you to not making it as far as the next pin position. But, for use as an unlocking tool, you do need to turn more than one pin position, often as much as 90 degrees. So, though it would pick the lock, you WOULD need to repeat. Please let us know how it goes! I'm a bit overdue on machining a better version of the conventional one - calibrated pin positions, better adjustment of resistance including solid locking of them, including being able to work with and without detents at the standard cut depths. Lack of necessity is the mother of procrastination!
Re: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #
Fred is probably right but it would be fun to try a bump key on these. It would be a lot simpler to make. You just take a blank key and cut each pin location deep enough so when fully engaged it would push the pins in about 1/16 inch. Then grind the piece that locks in in until fully turned off. Then one would put some rubber washers on it so that it just lifts off the pins from the washers lifting it. One could most likely tension by hand but like Fred says, one could easily over shoot and then have to pick it again. Dwight From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 3:57 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # The Chicago Ace (tubular) lock is USUALLY easier to pick (with the right tension wrench), since you have access to all of the pins, without having to reach past a pin to get to another. The commercial tools are just a tube with slots and sliders, with variable friction. Almost trivial to make your own (as I did in High School), although a well machined one will be a joy to use. As such, sometimes just sliding that into the lock (WITH THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF TORQUE) will get each pin to stop when it aligns. Bumping seems more hassle for this. As Dwight mentioned, picking or bumping without a pick tool that stays aligned with the pins (like the commercial ones), opens up the additional possibility of pins then coming back up and entering some other pin's chamber. The commercial tool ALSO leaves the sliders in position, so you can "duplicate" a key from it. OR measure/read out positions to decode. If you add calibrations to the commercial tool, then you can use it as a temporary key for anything for which you already have the code (suc as XX2247!) On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Looking at how things work, there is a new method used to pick locks that > works a little to well. It is a thing called a bump key. To make one for this > cylinder lock would be tricky. Still, it could be done. > The principle is that you bounce the tumbler pins in, while holding light > tension. The inertia of the pins pushes the pins in. As they return, the tend > to catch were the would normally turn. > I've seen one on the web demonstrated. They are quite remarkable as to how > easy they work. ( way too easy ) > The idea of making one for your lock is to allow the cylinder to only turn > part way between pin angles. Once it has rotated that much, you can then > measure the pin depth and make the key. > You could make one from a blank key and use a rubber washer to improve the > action. You'd remove the piece that holds the key in the lock and make a > holder block that would allow a partial turn so that it would stop, at the > right angle, between locations to make measurements for the new key. > It is not the traditional picking method but having seen it in action makes > traditional feeling the pins obsolete. > Dwight > > > From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via > cctalk > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 6:07 PM > To: gu...@optusnet.com.au; cctalk@classiccmp.org; cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND > KEY # > > Yikes and I am complaining about trying to pick the lock on the UNIVAC > 422 anyone have a key # for it? That type on that 8S looks tough... > > > Ed# www.smecc.org<http://www.smecc.org> > > > In a message dated 11/30/2018 6:53:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: > > > And now, back to machining a lock pick for a PDP-8/S front panel cylinder > lock. > > http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm#locks
Picking tubular locks (WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #
The Chicago Ace (tubular) lock is USUALLY easier to pick (with the right tension wrench), since you have access to all of the pins, without having to reach past a pin to get to another. The commercial tools are just a tube with slots and sliders, with variable friction. Almost trivial to make your own (as I did in High School), although a well machined one will be a joy to use. As such, sometimes just sliding that into the lock (WITH THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF TORQUE) will get each pin to stop when it aligns. Bumping seems more hassle for this. As Dwight mentioned, picking or bumping without a pick tool that stays aligned with the pins (like the commercial ones), opens up the additional possibility of pins then coming back up and entering some other pin's chamber. The commercial tool ALSO leaves the sliders in position, so you can "duplicate" a key from it. OR measure/read out positions to decode. If you add calibrations to the commercial tool, then you can use it as a temporary key for anything for which you already have the code (suc as XX2247!) On Sun, 2 Dec 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: Looking at how things work, there is a new method used to pick locks that works a little to well. It is a thing called a bump key. To make one for this cylinder lock would be tricky. Still, it could be done. The principle is that you bounce the tumbler pins in, while holding light tension. The inertia of the pins pushes the pins in. As they return, the tend to catch were the would normally turn. I've seen one on the web demonstrated. They are quite remarkable as to how easy they work. ( way too easy ) The idea of making one for your lock is to allow the cylinder to only turn part way between pin angles. Once it has rotated that much, you can then measure the pin depth and make the key. You could make one from a blank key and use a rubber washer to improve the action. You'd remove the piece that holds the key in the lock and make a holder block that would allow a partial turn so that it would stop, at the right angle, between locations to make measurements for the new key. It is not the traditional picking method but having seen it in action makes traditional feeling the pins obsolete. Dwight From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 6:07 PM To: gu...@optusnet.com.au; cctalk@classiccmp.org; cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # Yikes and I am complaining about trying to pick the lock on the UNIVAC 422 anyone have a key # for it? That type on that 8S looks tough... Ed# www.smecc.org<http://www.smecc.org> In a message dated 11/30/2018 6:53:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: And now, back to machining a lock pick for a PDP-8/S front panel cylinder lock. http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm#locks
Re: WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #
Looking at how things work, there is a new method used to pick locks that works a little to well. It is a thing called a bump key. To make one for this cylinder lock would be tricky. Still, it could be done. The principle is that you bounce the tumbler pins in, while holding light tension. The inertia of the pins pushes the pins in. As they return, the tend to catch were the would normally turn. I've seen one on the web demonstrated. They are quite remarkable as to how easy they work. ( way too easy ) The idea of making one for your lock is to allow the cylinder to only turn part way between pin angles. Once it has rotated that much, you can then measure the pin depth and make the key. You could make one from a blank key and use a rubber washer to improve the action. You'd remove the piece that holds the key in the lock and make a holder block that would allow a partial turn so that it would stop, at the right angle, between locations to make measurements for the new key. It is not the traditional picking method but having seen it in action makes traditional feeling the pins obsolete. Dwight From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 6:07 PM To: gu...@optusnet.com.au; cctalk@classiccmp.org; cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY # Yikes and I am complaining about trying to pick the lock on the UNIVAC 422 anyone have a key # for it? That type on that 8S looks tough... Ed# www.smecc.org<http://www.smecc.org> In a message dated 11/30/2018 6:53:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: And now, back to machining a lock pick for a PDP-8/S front panel cylinder lock. http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm#locks
WAS : Text encoding Babel. now PICKING LOCKS OR FINDING KEY MFR AND KEY #
Yikes and I am complaining about trying to pick the lock on the UNIVAC 422 anyone have a key # for it? That type on that 8S looks tough... Ed# www.smecc.org In a message dated 11/30/2018 6:53:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: And now, back to machining a lock pick for a PDP-8/S front panel cylinder lock. http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm#locks
