Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Ian Finder]

On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> There are pics - scroll right from the first pic - the one borrowed from
the internet.

I meant Cardcage / internal pictures which I know more than a few people on
this list have asked for...


On Apr 14, 2016 3:50 PM, "Ian Finder" <ian.fin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > $40K and the guy can't even be arsed to take pictures. What a dick...
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Josh Dersch <
> > jo...@livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
> >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> Mike
> > > Ross
> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:54 AM
> > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > > > Subject: RE: Xerox Alto on eBay
> > > >
> > > > On Apr 14, 2016 1:34 PM, "Josh Dersch"
> > > > <jo...@livingcomputermuseum.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > So we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to
> > > > > the
> > > > Alto :).
> > > > >
> > > > > - Josh
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Quite a hack! So you copy in real time as it were? Direct from packs
> > on a
> > > > running Alto to packs on a running 11? Would it be practical to hack
> it
> > > further
> > > > to capture the data to an image file so anyone with an 11 / RK combo
> > > could
> > > > write packs?
> > >
> > > No, I copy from an image file on the 2.11BSD filesystem on the 11 to a
> > > disk pack on the Alto -- the Alto's disk controller and Diablo drive do
> > all
> > > the actual formatting/writing.  The RK11 controllers have a completely
> > > different format from the Alto.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I have 6085s and Stars;  I'd love an Alto to round out the
> collection -
> > > but not at
> > > > $40k! Crazy prices these days; I've never paid more than a couple of
> > > grand for
> > > > anything - and usually a lot less.
> > >
> > > Me too, but I think I'll  just have to dream about it.  I've been
> working
> > > on a project though...
> > >
> > > - Josh
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >Ian Finder
> >(206) 395-MIPS
> >ian.fin...@gmail.com
> >
>



-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Mike Ross]

There are pics - scroll right from the first pic - the one borrowed from
the internet.
On Apr 14, 2016 3:50 PM, "Ian Finder" <ian.fin...@gmail.com> wrote:

> $40K and the guy can't even be arsed to take pictures. What a dick...
>
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Josh Dersch <
> jo...@livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
>
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> > Ross
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:54 AM
> > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > > Subject: RE: Xerox Alto on eBay
> > >
> > > On Apr 14, 2016 1:34 PM, "Josh Dersch"
> > > <jo...@livingcomputermuseum.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > So we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to
> > > > the
> > > Alto :).
> > > >
> > > > - Josh
> > > >
> > >
> > > Quite a hack! So you copy in real time as it were? Direct from packs
> on a
> > > running Alto to packs on a running 11? Would it be practical to hack it
> > further
> > > to capture the data to an image file so anyone with an 11 / RK combo
> > could
> > > write packs?
> >
> > No, I copy from an image file on the 2.11BSD filesystem on the 11 to a
> > disk pack on the Alto -- the Alto's disk controller and Diablo drive do
> all
> > the actual formatting/writing.  The RK11 controllers have a completely
> > different format from the Alto.
> >
> > >
> > > I have 6085s and Stars;  I'd love an Alto to round out the collection -
> > but not at
> > > $40k! Crazy prices these days; I've never paid more than a couple of
> > grand for
> > > anything - and usually a lot less.
> >
> > Me too, but I think I'll  just have to dream about it.  I've been working
> > on a project though...
> >
> > - Josh
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Mike
> >
>
>
>
> --
>Ian Finder
>(206) 395-MIPS
>ian.fin...@gmail.com
>

Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Ian Finder]

$40K and the guy can't even be arsed to take pictures. What a dick...

On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Josh Dersch <
jo...@livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:

> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> Ross
> > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:54 AM
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > Subject: RE: Xerox Alto on eBay
> >
> > On Apr 14, 2016 1:34 PM, "Josh Dersch"
> > <jo...@livingcomputermuseum.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > So we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to
> > > the
> > Alto :).
> > >
> > > - Josh
> > >
> >
> > Quite a hack! So you copy in real time as it were? Direct from packs on a
> > running Alto to packs on a running 11? Would it be practical to hack it
> further
> > to capture the data to an image file so anyone with an 11 / RK combo
> could
> > write packs?
>
> No, I copy from an image file on the 2.11BSD filesystem on the 11 to a
> disk pack on the Alto -- the Alto's disk controller and Diablo drive do all
> the actual formatting/writing.  The RK11 controllers have a completely
> different format from the Alto.
>
> >
> > I have 6085s and Stars;  I'd love an Alto to round out the collection -
> but not at
> > $40k! Crazy prices these days; I've never paid more than a couple of
> grand for
> > anything - and usually a lot less.
>
> Me too, but I think I'll  just have to dream about it.  I've been working
> on a project though...
>
> - Josh
>
>
> >
> > Mike
>



-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

RE: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Josh Dersch]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:54 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: Xerox Alto on eBay
> 
> On Apr 14, 2016 1:34 PM, "Josh Dersch"
> <jo...@livingcomputermuseum.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > So we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to
> > the
> Alto :).
> >
> > - Josh
> >
> 
> Quite a hack! So you copy in real time as it were? Direct from packs on a
> running Alto to packs on a running 11? Would it be practical to hack it 
> further
> to capture the data to an image file so anyone with an 11 / RK combo could
> write packs?

No, I copy from an image file on the 2.11BSD filesystem on the 11 to a disk 
pack on the Alto -- the Alto's disk controller and Diablo drive do all the 
actual formatting/writing.  The RK11 controllers have a completely different 
format from the Alto.

> 
> I have 6085s and Stars;  I'd love an Alto to round out the collection - but 
> not at
> $40k! Crazy prices these days; I've never paid more than a couple of grand for
> anything - and usually a lot less.

Me too, but I think I'll  just have to dream about it.  I've been working on a 
project though...

- Josh


> 
> Mike

RE: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Mike Ross]

On Apr 14, 2016 1:34 PM, "Josh Dersch" 
wrote:

> So we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to the
Alto :).
>
> - Josh
>

Quite a hack! So you copy in real time as it were? Direct from packs on a
running Alto to packs on a running 11? Would it be practical to hack it
further to capture the data to an image file so anyone with an 11 / RK
combo could write packs?

I have 6085s and Stars;  I'd love an Alto to round out the collection - but
not at $40k! Crazy prices these days; I've never paid more than a couple of
grand for anything - and usually a lot less.

Mike

Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Josh Dersch

> we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to the
> Alto :).

Ah, got it. In the context of the thread, with all the RK05 discussion, I
wrongly assumed that somehow there was an RK05 involved.

> wrote a rough implementation of PUP BSP and the Alto CopyDisk protocol
> on top of all of that. It was fun!

I can imagine! You must be the first person in about 30 years to do a PUP
implementation! :-)


> From: Jerry Weiss

> Not only that, but we used Diablo Drives on RK05 Controllers. 

That doesn't surprise me one bit - the RK11-C was designed to drive Diablo
drives, and the controller/drive interface was kept almost identical in the
RK11-D (the only difference being the drive select stuff).

But the drive (either RK05 or Diablo) only provides a bit stream and sector
pulses over that interface, so turning that bit string into a sector is
controller-specific, and it would have been somewhat astonishing if the
PDP-11 and Alto interfaces had used a compatible low-level format. And, as
Josh indicated, in fact, they did not.

Noel

RE: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Josh Dersch]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
> Chiappa
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 10:28 AM
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on eBay
> 
> > From: Josh Dersch
> 
> >> They are 12 sector 2315 packs. You have to duplicate it on a two drive
> >> Alto, since the format is unique.
> 
> > we're able to duplicate packs and write new ones out from disk images.
> > (At the moment it's kind of cumbersome -- involving a PDP-11/44 with a
> > 3mbit Ethernet board, a seriously hacked 2.11BSD kernel and a bit of
> > luck
> 
> You mean the RK11 controller can write packs that the Alto disk controller can
> read? (As in, the low-level format - preamble, sector header, sector
> checksum, etc, etc are all identical?)

No, they're as different as can be.  The key is that we have a Xerox UNIBUS 
3Mbit Ethernet board in the 11/44 (kindly provided by Al.)

I modified the 2.11BSD kernel to support the 3Mbit board (there's already 
technically a driver but it was incredibly broken and I'm not sure it ever 
actually ran on a PDP-11), added support for reading/writing raw Ethernet 
packets using BSD sockets (and added support for that to the DEUNA/DELUA driver 
as well) and wrote a rough implementation of PUP BSP and the Alto CopyDisk 
protocol on top of all of that.  It was fun!

So we copy disk images to/from the PDP-11/44 over 3Mbit Ethernet to the Alto :).

- Josh

Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Jerry Weiss]

On Apr 14, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> 
>> From: Josh Dersch
> 
>>> They are 12 sector 2315 packs. You have to duplicate it on a two drive
>>> Alto, since the format is unique.
> 
>> we're able to duplicate packs and write new ones out from disk images.
>> (At the moment it's kind of cumbersome -- involving a PDP-11/44 with a
>> 3mbit Ethernet board, a seriously hacked 2.11BSD kernel and a bit of
>> luck
> 
> You mean the RK11 controller can write packs that the Alto disk controller
> can read? (As in, the low-level format - preamble, sector header, sector
> checksum, etc, etc are all identical?)
> 
> Wow, I never knew that - that would have been a useful thing to know BITD -
> we had both at MIT (we got the Altos as part of the 3-university Xerox
> grant), and although I'm not sure we really needed to be able to transfer
> bits from one kind of machine to another, it might have been useful for
> something or other.
> 
> We did send a lot of files over the network to an Alto, but it was the Dover
> printer spooler machine - using a disk pack for that function wasn't really an
> option! :-)
> 
>   Noel


Not only that, but we used Diablo Drives on RK05 Controllers.  If you had a mix 
of Diablo and RK05 drives, the order and termination was a bit tricky but it 
worked.

Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Jerry Weiss]

> 
> On Apr 14, 2016, at 12:05 PM, Josh Dersch <jo...@livingcomputermuseum.org> 
> wrote:
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow
>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 9:58 AM
>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
>> Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on eBay
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 4/14/16 9:55 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>> If anyone out there ends up with a working Alto and needs working media,
>> we can help out in that regard (assuming you provide usable packs).
>> 
>> Have you ever gotten a pack from an RK05 to write?
>> 
>> I've tried a couple of times without luck and have wondered if they needed
>> to be bulk-erased first.
>> 
> 
> Yes, I've re-used a handful of 12-sector packs formerly used on a PDP-11 in 
> an RK05 without any issues.  I suppose it might be possible that if the 
> alignments of the Diablo in the Alto and the RK05 used to write the pack 
> originally are off by enough that there could be some odd issues (old data 
> left halfway between the new tracks?) but that's purely speculation on my 
> part.  Bulk erasing certainly couldn't hurt.
> 
> - Josh
> 

We used to swap packs between Diablo’s  and RK05’s all the time.   We had third 
party Qbus controller (18bit!) on an 11/73 and an RK11D on a PDP11/34.  Never 
had an interchange problem.

Jerry
 

Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Josh Dersch

>> They are 12 sector 2315 packs. You have to duplicate it on a two drive
>> Alto, since the format is unique.

> we're able to duplicate packs and write new ones out from disk images.
> (At the moment it's kind of cumbersome -- involving a PDP-11/44 with a
> 3mbit Ethernet board, a seriously hacked 2.11BSD kernel and a bit of
> luck

You mean the RK11 controller can write packs that the Alto disk controller
can read? (As in, the low-level format - preamble, sector header, sector
checksum, etc, etc are all identical?)

Wow, I never knew that - that would have been a useful thing to know BITD -
we had both at MIT (we got the Altos as part of the 3-university Xerox
grant), and although I'm not sure we really needed to be able to transfer
bits from one kind of machine to another, it might have been useful for
something or other.

We did send a lot of files over the network to an Alto, but it was the Dover
printer spooler machine - using a disk pack for that function wasn't really an
option! :-)

Noel

Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Al Kossow]

On 4/14/16 9:22 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> I'm also assuming whoever has it reads this list, since the BIN just
> happens to match what I've been offered for the machines that I still
> have.
>

In restored condition..

RE: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Josh Dersch]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 9:58 AM
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on eBay
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/14/16 9:55 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> > If anyone out there ends up with a working Alto and needs working media,
> we can help out in that regard (assuming you provide usable packs).
> 
> Have you ever gotten a pack from an RK05 to write?
> 
> I've tried a couple of times without luck and have wondered if they needed
> to be bulk-erased first.
> 

Yes, I've re-used a handful of 12-sector packs formerly used on a PDP-11 in an 
RK05 without any issues.  I suppose it might be possible that if the alignments 
of the Diablo in the Alto and the RK05 used to write the pack originally are 
off by enough that there could be some odd issues (old data left halfway 
between the new tracks?) but that's purely speculation on my part.  Bulk 
erasing certainly couldn't hurt.

- Josh

Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Al Kossow]

On 4/14/16 9:55 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> If anyone out there ends up with a working Alto and needs working media, we 
> can help out in that regard (assuming you provide usable packs).

Have you ever gotten a pack from an RK05 to write?

I've tried a couple of times without luck
and have wondered if they needed to be bulk-erased first.

RE: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Josh Dersch]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 9:22 AM
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on eBay
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/13/16 7:52 PM, jwsmobile wrote:
> 
> > Side discussion on Facebook says that media is rare too.  None with
> > the system (I think) from the discussion there.
> >
> 
> I have tons of it. They are 12 sector 2315 packs.
> You have to duplicate it on a two drive Alto, since the format is unique. I've
> heard LCM has written some code to load it from the Alto pack images that I
> created.

Yes, we're able to duplicate packs and write new ones out from disk images.  
(At the moment it's kind of cumbersome -- involving a PDP-11/44 with a 3mbit 
Ethernet board, a seriously hacked 2.11BSD kernel and a bit of luck -- but 
we're working on a more elegant solution.)  If anyone out there ends up with a 
working Alto and needs working media, we can help out in that regard (assuming 
you provide usable packs).

- Josh

Sr. Vintage Software Engineer
Living Computer Museum
www.livingcomputermuseum.org

Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Al Kossow]

On 4/13/16 7:52 PM, jwsmobile wrote:

> Side discussion on Facebook says that media is rare too.  None with the
> system (I think) from the discussion there.
>

I have tons of it. They are 12 sector 2315 packs.
You have to duplicate it on a two drive Alto, since the format is
unique. I've heard LCM has written some code to load it from the
Alto pack images that I created.

Dug out my list of serial numbers, and it isn't one that I've seen
before. It probably is a 3K XM unit, but who knows, since the seller
is clueless, and doesn't know the installed card compliment is critical
to getting it running.

It's pretty much impossible to get a broken one running without a known
good card set to isolate problems with, since it was assumed that
debugging would be done with the shop test Alto that had special
hardware debug sauce.

I'm also assuming whoever has it reads this list, since the BIN just
happens to match what I've been offered for the machines that I still
have.

Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[Ian S. King]

On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 7:52 PM, jwsmobile  wrote:

>
>
> On 4/13/2016 6:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/XEROX-ALTO-II-XM-SYSTEM-COMPLETE-MONITOR-KEYBOARD-MOUSE-DISKS-CASE/282003972041
>>
>> didn't sell for $4, so now it's $40005
>>
>> trying to decide if I should report him for this message I got from him.
>>
>> New message from: paperonebonaparte (964Purple Star)
>>
>> photos in internet. please send email for private business and offers.
>>
>>
>> Nick Allen says this was sold to an individual and was to go to an
> Italian museum of some sort, but the deal must have fallen thru. Price is a
> bit steep for a non working unit.
>
> Side discussion on Facebook says that media is rare too.  None with the
> system (I think) from the discussion there.
> thanks
> Jim
>


This looks screwy.  Why not offer photos of the unit you get?  Why is the
Diablo missing from the cabinet?

Media/software is available around and about, FYI.  The media is a pretty
standard RK05 cartridge (12 sector).

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[jwsmobile]

On 4/13/2016 6:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/XEROX-ALTO-II-XM-SYSTEM-COMPLETE-MONITOR-KEYBOARD-MOUSE-DISKS-CASE/282003972041

didn't sell for $4, so now it's $40005

trying to decide if I should report him for this message I got from him.

New message from: paperonebonaparte (964Purple Star)

photos in internet. please send email for private business and offers.


Nick Allen says this was sold to an individual and was to go to an 
Italian museum of some sort, but the deal must have fallen thru. Price 
is a bit steep for a non working unit.


Side discussion on Facebook says that media is rare too.  None with the 
system (I think) from the discussion there.

thanks
Jim

Re: Xerox Alto on eBay

[ethan]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/XEROX-ALTO-II-XM-SYSTEM-COMPLETE-MONITOR-KEYBOARD-MOUSE-DISKS-CASE/282003972041
didn't sell for $4, so now it's $40005
trying to decide if I should report him for this message I got from him.
New message from: paperonebonaparte (964Purple Star)
photos in internet. please send email for private business and offers.


Don't, screw eBay. They take like 17%, and you do all the work. Seller 
takes all the risks. They even charge you their fee on your shipping 
costs. I'd rather do business through Craigslist.


I list my Cray system on eBay but would rather sell it around eBay.


--
Ethan O'Toole

Xerox Alto on eBay

[Al Kossow]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/XEROX-ALTO-II-XM-SYSTEM-COMPLETE-MONITOR-KEYBOARD-MOUSE-DISKS-CASE/282003972041

didn't sell for $4, so now it's $40005

trying to decide if I should report him for this message I got from him.

New message from: paperonebonaparte (964Purple Star)

photos in internet. please send email for private business and offers.