Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

f Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2016 3:51 PM To: gene...@classiccmp.org; Discussion@ Subject: Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer) On 04/24/2016 03:33 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/23/2016 8:32 PM, dwight wrote: >> I recall going to Mike Quinn's and s

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 04/24/2016 03:33 PM, ben wrote: On 4/23/2016 8:32 PM, dwight wrote: I recall going to Mike Quinn's and seeing barrels of RTL. I wish now that I'd bought a bunch of them. Most DTL can be replace by a TTL except a few with different pinouts and the NAND with the diode expand pin. My oldest

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 4/23/2016 8:32 PM, dwight wrote: I recall going to Mike Quinn's and seeing barrels of RTL. I wish now that I'd bought a bunch of them. Most DTL can be replace by a TTL except a few with different pinouts and the NAND with the diode expand pin. My oldest equipment has a mix of DTL and TTL.

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

I recall going to Mike Quinn's and seeing barrels of RTL. I wish now that I'd bought a bunch of them. Most DTL can be replace by a TTL except a few with different pinouts and the NAND with the diode expand pin. My oldest equipment has a mix of DTL and TTL. Dwight

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 2016-Apr-23, at 4:15 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 04/23/2016 05:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 04/23/2016 02:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> I was surprised by the early date code on the 7490s when I ran across >>> them in a piece of test equipment. >> What was surprising to me is how

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 04/23/2016 05:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 04/23/2016 02:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: I was surprised by the early date code on the 7490s when I ran across them in a piece of test equipment. What was surprising to me is how quickly the industry standardized on the TI 7400/5400 parts.

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 04/23/2016 04:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: The interesting thing was that there seemed to be a distrust of LSI chips early on. I recall working on a project around 1973, where the lead engineer preferred to design his own UART from SSI rather than use one of the new UART chips. Well, he

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 04/23/2016 02:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I was surprised by the early date code on the 7490s when I ran across > them in a piece of test equipment. What was surprising to me is how quickly the industry standardized on the TI 7400/5400 parts. Early (ca 1967) Moto databooks had MTTL I,

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 2016-Apr-23, at 10:06 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/23/2016 05:41 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> From: Brent Hilpert >> >>> I'd say the 74181 (1970) deserves a mention here. Simpler (no >>> register component, ALU only) but it pretty much kicked off the >>> start of IC-level bit slicing. > >

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 04/23/2016 11:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > From: Jon Elson > The 11/45 and 11/70 are mostly the same processor. ... > the data paths boards and FPU are the same part numbers 'Yes' to the FPP (well, there are two versions, the FP11-B and FP11-C, but they are both identical in

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

> AFAIK, the only non-FPP board in the CPU which is interchangeable > between the two machines is the M8132 (instruction register decode & > condition codes) So it seems like there's an(other) error in the DEC documentation. If one looks at 11/70 Maintenance Manual (EK-11070-MM-002),

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

> From: Jon Elson > The 11/45 and 11/70 are mostly the same processor. ... > the data paths boards and FPU are the same part numbers 'Yes' to the FPP (well, there are two versions, the FP11-B and FP11-C, but they are both identical in the two machines). 'No' to the data paths,

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 04/23/2016 07:41 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > From: Brent Hilpert > I'd say the 74181 (1970) deserves a mention here. Simpler (no register > component, ALU only) but it pretty much kicked off the start of > IC-level bit slicing. Yes, it was used in quite a few machines.

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 04/22/2016 11:10 PM, Jon Elson wrote: Yikes, too many typos, let me try over! I built a 32-bit micro-engine for a project that was eventually going to be an IBM 360-like CPU. I picked the 360, not because it was the greatest design, but it was VERY well laid-out and would be easy to write

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

> From: Brent Hilpert > I'd say the 74181 (1970) deserves a mention here. Simpler (no register > component, ALU only) but it pretty much kicked off the start of > IC-level bit slicing. Yes, it was used in quite a few machines. Among the PDP-11's alone, it is found in the -11/45,

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 04/22/2016 09:36 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/22/2016 10:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What about Radio Shack? $2 for 7400 or 50 cents a gate. Now the > latest INTEL product has how many gates again? By the mid 80s, some of us were trying to think of creative uses for the Z80, which was then going for

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 10:03 PM, ben wrote: >> Not exactly bit-slice, but how about the National IMP-16 chip set? It's bit-slice. The RALU chips were four bits wide, and were used in at least three different processor architectures, the IMP-4, IMP-8, and IMP-16. (Despite

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 04/22/2016 09:03 PM, ben wrote: > Too Early , Too Slow , Too $$$ is my guess. With out the 6800/6502 > 8080/Z80 price wars, how much would a 8 bit CPU be in the late 70s? > $75? Given the price of memory and other "then-LSI" in the late 70s, $75 doesn't sound unreasonable at all. NSC did

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 04/22/2016 10:36 PM, ben wrote: I think the problem was memory at the time. What was the use having a FAST bitslice machine, but real memory at the time was SMALL and SLOw. Well, I had 45 ns static RAM for control store on my 2903 bit slice machine. Yes, those were 1K x 4 chips, and I

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 4/22/2016 8:54 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: Eric Smith mentioned: [2901 A, B, and C, CMOS versions] [2903 and 29203] [Intel 3001 and 3002] [MMI 5701/6701] [Motorola MC10800] I'd add the Texas Instruments SN74S481, SN54LS481 and SN74LS481 TTL 4 bit slices. The Schottky version had a 90ns

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On 04/22/2016 07:54 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > I'd add the Texas Instruments SN74S481, SN54LS481 and SN74LS481 TTL > 4 bit slices. The Schottky version had a 90ns clock cycle and the > low power versions 120ns. These were 48 pins chips and didn't have > an internal register bank like the

bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

Eric Smith mentioned: > [2901 A, B, and C, CMOS versions] > [2903 and 29203] > [Intel 3001 and 3002] > [MMI 5701/6701] > [Motorola MC10800] I'd add the Texas Instruments SN74S481, SN54LS481 and SN74LS481 TTL 4 bit slices. The Schottky version had a 90ns clock cycle and the low power versions

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

I do, back at my old house. I even have a bunch of the old 10G line of chips, unused. They came out of Collins surplus back in the early 1990s. -- Will On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:25 PM, William Donzelli

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:25 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > There was a 29G01 offered for a short time. Worth several times their > weight in gold. Yes, I forgot about those. Gallium arsenide MESFET for very high speed. Anyone have data sheets for that family?

Re: bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

There was a 29G01 offered for a short time. Worth several times their weight in gold. -- Will On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:07 AM, Raymond Wiker wrote: >> I was a bit surprised to see that it used 2901 with

bit slice chips (was Re: Harris H800 Computer)

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:07 AM, Raymond Wiker wrote: > I was a bit surprised to see that it used 2901 with a date code of 1985 - > the 2901 was introduced 10 years before. The 2901 was the workhorse bit-slice data path chip for many years. The A, B, and C suffix parts were