RE: dd-equivalent for VMS
On Sat, 17 Jun 2017, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: I have cloned drives that way for VMS systems. Backup/image is the tool for that. So have I, but it doesn't work for tapes. Unless someone knows a trick that I have not discovered? No, backup won't do what you want. Backup is designed to save and restore Files-11 on disk file systems and requires access to index.sys and bitmap.sys which translates to mean that it is not doing a sequential block by block copy like "dd" does. A common use for backup/image was to backup a disk and then restore it back to the disk to eliminate fragmentation, that would not be possible with a raw block by block copy. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV: "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black
RE: dd-equivalent for VMS
> -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick > Murphy via cctalk > Sent: 17 June 2017 14:06 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: dd-equivalent for VMS > > On 6/17/2017 4:04 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > On 06/16/2017 09:04 AM, Ed Thierbach via cctalk wrote: > >>> BACKUP/IMAGE might work. I have a dim recollection of moving system > >>> drives around that way, but it's been a few decades. :-) > >> I have cloned drives that way for VMS systems. Backup/image is the > >> tool for that. > >> > > So have I, but it doesn't work for tapes. Unless someone knows a trick that > > I > have not discovered? > MOUNT/FOREIGN/BLOCKSIZE=65534 MUA0: > COPY MUA0: TAPE.DMP > > That's it. You've just got to mount it with a larger blocksize than the > blocks on > the tape. > If you encounter a bad block, you're screwed. There's no equivalent to > "ddrescue" that ignores read errors and continues. However, for TK50s, there's > probably no way to recover from a read error anyway. I have been able to read the tape from Ultrix. The COPY method above failed for me (below, not sure why as it is readable on Ultrix) and BACKUP/IMAGE does not work on tapes. $ mou/for/block=10240 mka300 %MOUNT-I-WRITELOCK, volume is write locked %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, mounted on _MKA300: $ copy mka300: tape21.dat/log %COPY-E-READERR, error reading _MKA300:[].; -RMS-F-RER, file read error -SYSTEM-F-DRVERR, fatal drive error %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, _MKA300:[].; not completely copied Anyway, I have something that seems to work better now under Ultrix, so hopefully I will succeed now. Regards Rob
Re: dd-equivalent for VMS
On 6/17/2017 4:04 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: On 06/16/2017 09:04 AM, Ed Thierbach via cctalk wrote: BACKUP/IMAGE might work. I have a dim recollection of moving system drives around that way, but it's been a few decades. :-) I have cloned drives that way for VMS systems. Backup/image is the tool for that. So have I, but it doesn't work for tapes. Unless someone knows a trick that I have not discovered? MOUNT/FOREIGN/BLOCKSIZE=65534 MUA0: COPY MUA0: TAPE.DMP That's it. You've just got to mount it with a larger blocksize than the blocks on the tape. If you encounter a bad block, you're screwed. There's no equivalent to "ddrescue" that ignores read errors and continues. However, for TK50s, there's probably no way to recover from a read error anyway. -Rick
RE: dd-equivalent for VMS
I have had multiple interesting and useful answers. Thanks everyone. I checked on VMS 7.3 and there is no COPY/IMAGE there. BACKUP/IMAGE had been my first thought, but it won't accept a tape as the source of the image data unfortunately. I have a TZ30, so I will try that on Ultrix. I will also try a more recent Unix (Debian probably) on an Alpha and see if that can read from a later drive. May last resort is to write my own VMS QIO-level program to read raw blocks myself. Regards Rob > -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > DiRosario via cctalk > Sent: 16 June 2017 15:28 > To: cct...@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: dd-equivalent for VMS > > You could remove the disk from your Ultrix box, install another diskand > install > NetBSD. The Pmax version works on the DEC MIPS > boxes:http://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/pmax/. You could also do that on your > DECAlpha. > The TK50Z should be a SCSI drive, you could also just move the drive to > another > UNIX/Linux/BSD box > > It's been a while since I played with any of my vintage computers that have a > TK50 drive. Could it be that the SCSI controller / bus in the Ultrix box > isn't fast > enough to handle the tape drive at "full speed"? You could try putting the > drive > on a modern computer with a modern SCSI controller with nothing else on that > SCSI bus. > > Ten plus years ago I was working on a satellite ground system and we needed > to record the real time down link so we could use it to test the system. The > data was written to a SCSI DLT drive. The speeds listed for most tape drives > are > peak speeds, and it was very hard to get a sustained data rate that was close > to > the peak data rate listed by drive manufacturers. > > Robert > > > Is there a dd equivalent for VMS? > > Background: > > I am trying to recover some TK50 tapes that were written on Ultrix. > > I have a MIPS machine with Ultrix 4.5 on it and a TK50Z drive. I have been > able > to read some tapes but they all seem to get an I/O error after a while of > reading. I think this could be due to the accumulation of oxide on the heads. > Despite cleaning the heads after every tape (by disassembly and cleaning with > isopropyl on a cotton bud). I think the oxide is accumulating more than > necessary because of the poor streaming abilities on the TK50 drive (too much > back and forth over the same section of tape). > > > > I do have more modern drives (TK70, TZ85, TZ87 etc), but Ultrix does not seem > to recognise them. So I was hoping to use one of my VAX or Alpha machines > with VMS and a better tape drive to recover the raw data. Ideally I would like > to make a SIMH virtual tape clone of the real tape. > > Any other alternative suggestions very welcome.
Re: dd-equivalent for VMS
You could remove the disk from your Ultrix box, install another diskand install NetBSD. The Pmax version works on the DEC MIPS boxes:http://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/pmax/. You could also do that on your DECAlpha. The TK50Z should be a SCSI drive, you could also just move the drive to another UNIX/Linux/BSD box It's been a while since I played with any of my vintage computers that have a TK50 drive. Could it be that the SCSI controller / bus in the Ultrix box isn't fast enough to handle the tape drive at "full speed"? You could try putting the drive on a modern computer with a modern SCSI controller with nothing else on that SCSI bus. Ten plus years ago I was working on a satellite ground system and we needed to record the real time down link so we could use it to test the system. The data was written to a SCSI DLT drive. The speeds listed for most tape drives are peak speeds, and it was very hard to get a sustained data rate that was close to the peak data rate listed by drive manufacturers. Robert Is there a dd equivalent for VMS? Background: I am trying to recover some TK50 tapes that were written on Ultrix. I have a MIPS machine with Ultrix 4.5 on it and a TK50Z drive. I have been able to read some tapes but they all seem to get an I/O error after a while of reading. I think this could be due to the accumulation of oxide on the heads. Despite cleaning the heads after every tape (by disassembly and cleaning with isopropyl on a cotton bud). I think the oxide is accumulating more than necessary because of the poor streaming abilities on the TK50 drive (too much back and forth over the same section of tape). I do have more modern drives (TK70, TZ85, TZ87 etc), but Ultrix does not seem to recognise them. So I was hoping to use one of my VAX or Alpha machines with VMS and a better tape drive to recover the raw data. Ideally I would like to make a SIMH virtual tape clone of the real tape. Any other alternative suggestions very welcome.
Re: dd-equivalent for VMS
I used a TZ30 under Linux. I found that the TZ30 mechanism is significantly less troublesome than the TK50 (IIRC the TK50Z is the same mechanism with a SCSI interface board). Used an Adaptec AHA-1522 ISA SCSI controller. FWIW, my TK50 cartridges seemed to be suffering from tape stickiness. 30 minutes to an hour sitting on top of the radiator helped significantly. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Ed Thierbach via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > BACKUP/IMAGE might work. I have a dim recollection of moving system drives > around that way, but it's been a few decades. :-) > > Best of luck, and let us know how it goes. > -Ed- > > On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 16, 2017, at 3:00 AM, Chris Hanson via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 15, 2017, at 11:30 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >> > > >> Is there a dd equivalent for VMS? > > > > > > I’m pretty sure PIP is the “dd” equivalent on DEC operating systems in > > general. > > > > No, "pip" is a file manipulation program, which -- depending on OS -- > > provides as command options the analog of Unix commands cat, cp, mv, ls, > > etc. > > > > If you mean "dd" as a partial file copying program, that's something I > > haven't seen on DEC OSs. For image copying (non-file-structured > copying), > > it may be that pip can do that but often it won't because it only does > file > > structured operations in many systems. On VMS (and some other systems) > > there may be something like "copy/image" which may work. Support for raw > > block access of file devices varies, though; it depends on whether the OS > > allows such a thing. To pick one example, RSTS originally did not allow > > that; it was added part way through the OS history. > > > > paul > > > > > > >
Re: dd-equivalent for VMS
BACKUP/IMAGE might work. I have a dim recollection of moving system drives around that way, but it's been a few decades. :-) Best of luck, and let us know how it goes. -Ed- On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Jun 16, 2017, at 3:00 AM, Chris Hanson via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jun 15, 2017, at 11:30 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> Is there a dd equivalent for VMS? > > > > I’m pretty sure PIP is the “dd” equivalent on DEC operating systems in > general. > > No, "pip" is a file manipulation program, which -- depending on OS -- > provides as command options the analog of Unix commands cat, cp, mv, ls, > etc. > > If you mean "dd" as a partial file copying program, that's something I > haven't seen on DEC OSs. For image copying (non-file-structured copying), > it may be that pip can do that but often it won't because it only does file > structured operations in many systems. On VMS (and some other systems) > there may be something like "copy/image" which may work. Support for raw > block access of file devices varies, though; it depends on whether the OS > allows such a thing. To pick one example, RSTS originally did not allow > that; it was added part way through the OS history. > > paul > > >
Re: dd-equivalent for VMS
> On Jun 16, 2017, at 3:00 AM, Chris Hanson via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > On Jun 15, 2017, at 11:30 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: >> >> Is there a dd equivalent for VMS? > > I’m pretty sure PIP is the “dd” equivalent on DEC operating systems in > general. No, "pip" is a file manipulation program, which -- depending on OS -- provides as command options the analog of Unix commands cat, cp, mv, ls, etc. If you mean "dd" as a partial file copying program, that's something I haven't seen on DEC OSs. For image copying (non-file-structured copying), it may be that pip can do that but often it won't because it only does file structured operations in many systems. On VMS (and some other systems) there may be something like "copy/image" which may work. Support for raw block access of file devices varies, though; it depends on whether the OS allows such a thing. To pick one example, RSTS originally did not allow that; it was added part way through the OS history. paul
Re: dd-equivalent for VMS
On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 12:00:00AM -0700, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > On Jun 15, 2017, at 11:30 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > Is there a dd equivalent for VMS? > > I’m pretty sure PIP is the “dd” equivalent on DEC operating systems in > general. > COPY can be used on raw devices as well if I recall correctly. /P
Re: dd-equivalent for VMS
On Jun 15, 2017, at 11:30 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Is there a dd equivalent for VMS? I’m pretty sure PIP is the “dd” equivalent on DEC operating systems in general. -- Chris
dd-equivalent for VMS
Is there a dd equivalent for VMS? Background: I am trying to recover some TK50 tapes that were written on Ultrix. I have a MIPS machine with Ultrix 4.5 on it and a TK50Z drive. I have been able to read some tapes but they all seem to get an I/O error after a while of reading. I think this could be due to the accumulation of oxide on the heads. Despite cleaning the heads after every tape (by disassembly and cleaning with isopropyl on a cotton bud). I think the oxide is accumulating more than necessary because of the poor streaming abilities on the TK50 drive (too much back and forth over the same section of tape). I do have more modern drives (TK70, TZ85, TZ87 etc), but Ultrix does not seem to recognise them. So I was hoping to use one of my VAX or Alpha machines with VMS and a better tape drive to recover the raw data. Ideally I would like to make a SIMH virtual tape clone of the real tape. Any other alternative suggestions very welcome.
