Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
> From: Steve Malikoff >> According to this page that Dennis Ritchie wrote ... >> https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/picture.html > It states that their 11/20 had a KS-11 memory management unit, was > that mandatory for running v1 Unix on an 11/20? Well, the page does say they had two -11/20's, apparently one with and one without the KS11. Also, ISTR that the source for the -11/20 system has been recovered from a listing and run, and IIRC that didn't have the KS11 stuff in it (but it might be worth checking). Next to nothing is known of the KS11. Dennis' page "Odd Comments and Strange Doings in Unix": https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/odd.html has a story involving it (at the end), and that is all I've ever been able to find out about it (if anyone has anything more, please let me know). My original guess as to its functionality, from that, was that it's not part of the CPU, but a UNIBUS device, which perhaps maps addresses around (and definitely limits user access to I/O page addresses). It might also have mapped part of the UNIBUS space which the -11/20 CPU _can_ see (i.e. in the 0-56KB range) up to higher addresses, where 'extra' memory is configured. However, on re-reading that page, I see it apparently supported some sort of user/kernel mode distinction, which might have require a tie-in to the CPU. (But not necessarily; if there was a flop in the KS11 which stored the 'CPU mode' bit, it might be automatically cleared on all interrupts. Not sure how it would have handled traps, though. I'll have to enquire on the TUHS list. Noel
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
Paul Koning wrote: >> The 1971 Unix Programmer's Manual mentions their 11/20 had 24 KB >> (surely KW?) memory rather than 28KW. > I would assume kW. In the PDP11 world we didn't normally speak of > bytes or kbytes, certainly not for memory and often not elsewhere either. The PDP-11 Unix source: https://github.com/DoctorWkt/unix-jun72/blob/master/pages/e00-01 says: orig = 0 core = orig+4 / specifies beginning of user's core ecore = core+2 / specifies end of user's core (4096 words) So: 4= 16KB for the kernel, 2= 8KB for the user program. Cheers, Warren
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
> On Jun 21, 2019, at 8:21 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk > wrote: > > Warren said >> According to this page that Dennis Ritchie wrote, the original PDP-11 >> they used was indeed an 11/20 but it was before there were PDP-11 model >> numbers: >> >> https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/picture.html >> >> And, of course, the PDP-7 Unix development came before the PDP-11 version :) >> >> Cheers, Warren > > It states that their 11/20 had a KS-11 memory management unit, was that > mandatory for running v1 Unix on an 11/20? Curious. Recently on this list we learned that CSS built an MMU for the 11/20, rather different in structure from the later ones (not quite a Unibus peripheral but more in that direction). But that wasn't called KS-11. > The 1971 Unix Programmer's Manual mentions their 11/20 had 24 KB (surely KW?) > memory rather than 28KW. > https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/1stEdman.html I would assume kW. In the PDP11 world we didn't normally speak of bytes or kbytes, certainly not for memory and often not elsewhere either. So we'd say the disks have 256 word blocks (except 32 in the RC11 and 1 in the RF11). paul
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
Steve Malikoff wrote: > It states that their 11/20 had a KS-11 memory management unit, was that > mandatory for running v1 Unix on an 11/20? I case-insensitively grepped for 'ks.*11' in the Github repository here: https://github.com/DoctorWkt/unix-jun72 and I didn't see a mention. > The 1971 Unix Programmer's Manual mentions their > 11/20 had 24 KB (surely KW?) memory rather than 28KW. 28KB is right. The simh.cfg from the repo says: set cpu 11/20 set cpu 32K Cheers, Warren
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
Warren said > According to this page that Dennis Ritchie wrote, the original PDP-11 > they used was indeed an 11/20 but it was before there were PDP-11 model > numbers: > > https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/picture.html > > And, of course, the PDP-7 Unix development came before the PDP-11 version :) > > Cheers, Warren It states that their 11/20 had a KS-11 memory management unit, was that mandatory for running v1 Unix on an 11/20? The 1971 Unix Programmer's Manual mentions their 11/20 had 24 KB (surely KW?) memory rather than 28KW. https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/1stEdman.html Having recently acquired a 3rd-party 8KW unibus memory module (stack + drivers + control, all integrated into a DD-11-sized form) that is the same model and brand as the 16KW unit in my ex-BHP steelworks FOX 2 (11/15), perhaps there is the very, very slim hope that if the whole thing works it might be enough to run v1 someday. That day however is a long way away, but I think I now have most of the hardware needed. Steve.
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
According to this page that Dennis Ritchie wrote, the original PDP-11 they used was indeed an 11/20 but it was before there were PDP-11 model numbers: https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/picture.html And, of course, the PDP-7 Unix development came before the PDP-11 version :) Cheers, Warren
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
On 6/20/2019 6:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote: Don't you ALL wish the the 11 was 18 bits. Not looking at REAL 11 but the schematic, two bits would have not been too hard to add. You mean like a PDP-7 (the first Unix machine)? Nope, the * PDP 11 * from 1971. It used if I remember right a 16x1 RAM and a 1 bit ADDER was heart of the ALU. 4 bit wide TTL came out in the next version of the 11. Reading the development notes for the PDP 11 (bitsavers) makes interesting reading on just what was planned back then. XV6 is teaching unix (2006) I just found out about. We now all can upgrade from PDP11's with 56K of core to PC with 128KB of memory :) . Ben. paul
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
> On Jun 20, 2019, at 5:31 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 6/20/2019 9:58 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 06/20/2019 08:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory. >>> >>> >> 28 KW is 56 KBytes, which is the max on most non-MMU CPUs. >> Jon > Don't you ALL wish the the 11 was 18 bits. Not looking at REAL > 11 but the schematic, two bits would have not been too hard to add. You mean like a PDP-7 (the first Unix machine)? paul
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 2:56 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 6/20/2019 11:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 6/20/19 8:58 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> On 06/20/2019 08:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>> V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory. > >>> > >>> > >> 28 KW is 56 KBytes, which is the max on most non-MMU CPUs. > >> > >> Jon > > > > Mini-Unix, the non-mmu version. > > > > > > Which does also run on a /20, though I have never tried it. > Mini-Unix is fairly notable in that it doesn't require EIS; so it'll run on an 11/05 as well. Not fast, mind you... - Josh
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
On 6/20/2019 11:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 6/20/19 8:58 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 06/20/2019 08:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory. >>> >>> >> 28 KW is 56 KBytes, which is the max on most non-MMU CPUs. >> >> Jon > > Mini-Unix, the non-mmu version. > > Which does also run on a /20, though I have never tried it.
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
On 6/20/2019 9:58 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: On 06/20/2019 08:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory. 28 KW is 56 KBytes, which is the max on most non-MMU CPUs. Jon Don't you ALL wish the the 11 was 18 bits. Not looking at REAL 11 but the schematic, two bits would have not been too hard to add. Ben.
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
On 6/20/19 8:58 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 06/20/2019 08:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory. >> >> > 28 KW is 56 KBytes, which is the max on most non-MMU CPUs. > > Jon Mini-Unix, the non-mmu version.
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
On 06/20/2019 08:50 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory. 28 KW is 56 KBytes, which is the max on most non-MMU CPUs. Jon
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
On 6/19/19 10:20 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 9:23 PM Bob Smith via cctalk > wrote: >> My recollection, Unix on the 11 started with the 20 but because of the >> limited capabilties, it really was done on the /45. > > The good stuff, yes, but it was still recognizable on the 11/20... > > https://github.com/jserv/unix-v1 > >>> unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11? > > Based on comments from Ken Thompson at his keynote at VCF East this > year, just "PDP-11" (he specifically asked if anyone in the audience > had ever touched _that_ version, no "/20"). > >> The three rings or 3 execution levels were not supported on the >> original machine. > > Sure but v1/v2 UNIX was a lot simpler than v5. > V6 will run on an LSI-11/02 with 28KW of memory. bill
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 9:23 PM Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > My recollection, Unix on the 11 started with the 20 but because of the > limited capabilties, it really was done on the /45. The good stuff, yes, but it was still recognizable on the 11/20... https://github.com/jserv/unix-v1 > > unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11? Based on comments from Ken Thompson at his keynote at VCF East this year, just "PDP-11" (he specifically asked if anyone in the audience had ever touched _that_ version, no "/20"). > The three rings or 3 execution levels were not supported on the > original machine. Sure but v1/v2 UNIX was a lot simpler than v5. -ethan
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
On 06/19/2019 08:23 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: My recollection, Unix on the 11 started with the 20 but because of the limited capabilties, it really was done on the /45. The three rings or 3 execution levels were not supported on the original machine. MMU and expanded memory would be a great help in a multi-user system. The original PDP-11 with 56 KB of memory was pretty limited. Great for DOS-11 and RT-11, but more complex OS'es needed more resources. Jon
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
My recollection, Unix on the 11 started with the 20 but because of the limited capabilties, it really was done on the /45. The three rings or 3 execution levels were not supported on the original machine. bb On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 5:20 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11? > > Help - have a nice looking 11/20 plus a weird analog computer and a > Nike guidance gyro platform for AJAX ( 2 gyros loose need prints to > rewire correctly) in trade for and extra ribbon Mike we had. > so anyway today's questions > > - bell labs UNIX machine says 11 or 11/20 > -anyone have schematics or wiring chart for NIKE AJAX Gyro Plantform? > Drop offlist as not to clutter things > thanks Ed#
unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11? Help - have a nice looking 11/20 plus a weird analog computer and a Nike guidance gyro platform for AJAX ( 2 gyros loose need prints to rewire correctly) in trade for and extra ribbon Mike we had. so anyway today's questions - bell labs UNIX machine says 11 or 11/20 -anyone have schematics or wiring chart for NIKE AJAX Gyro Plantform? Drop offlist as not to clutter things thanks Ed#
