Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs (Tom Hunter)
Hello, It's been a few years since I built that programmer for the K155PE3 chips, and it took a bit of tinkering to get it to work. When I finally found the missing piece (I don't remember exactly what it was, but as I remember it was sort of a "Doh!" moment...), I probably didn't go back and optimize the algorithm, since it now accomplished what I needed. I based my algorithm on a blend of the manual programmer circuits that are floating around on the web; all of these involved setting up and address and a single *bit* (not byte) to burn, then pushing a button for half a second or so. I just automated that process with an 8051 and a bunch of transistor drivers. Now that it's working, if I felt so inclined, I could very likely go back and trim down the burn times - I recently found an excerpt from a National databook that indicates several repeated 10 uSec bursts per bit. That would certainly speed things up quite a lot, but again, it now works for what I need, so I probably won't go back and change anything. This could explain why I see about a 5% failure rate when burning PROMs, though. ~~ Mark Moulding -Original Message- From: Holm Tiffe Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 12:19 PM To: m...@markesystems.com ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs (Tom Hunter) Mark Moulding via cctalk wrote: From: Tom Hunter Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, > for > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the > faster > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few > on > Ebay. > > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description > of > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer > had (somewhat) different algorithms. I built a project using Russian clones of the 74188, and ended up building a programmer for them. The programming process is slow (over a minute to program 32 bytes), draws quite a bit of power (the chip is uncomfortably warm afterwards), and it took a while to work out the programming algorithm. Also, as Tom Hunter mentioned, the programming process isn't perfect - about 5% don't program correctly; I don't know if this is my algorithm or the fact that the clones aren't so good. However, once programmed, they seem to work just fine. K155RE3? (К155РЕ3) I've had to repair a stepper motor controller from some CNC grinding machine lately. Luckily I had 2 such controllers, one with a working ROM (some TIBPxxx) and I had K155RE3 in a box. I've programmed it with an Labtool48 using Dataman48 Software on Windows. The Dataman ist the same thing as the Labtool. It programmed the ROMs successfully as 74S188, but the first peace failed to program correctly. Programming was relatively fast, below 2 seconds with verify. Regards, -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 i...@tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs (Tom Hunter)
Mark Moulding via cctalk wrote: > From: Tom Hunter > Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs > > > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for > > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the > > faster > > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on > > Ebay. > > > > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of > > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer > > had (somewhat) different algorithms. > > I built a project using Russian clones of the 74188, and ended up building a > programmer for them. The programming process is slow (over a minute to > program 32 bytes), draws quite a bit of power (the chip is uncomfortably > warm afterwards), and it took a while to work out the programming algorithm. > Also, as Tom Hunter mentioned, the programming process isn't perfect - about > 5% don't program correctly; I don't know if this is my algorithm or the fact > that the clones aren't so good. However, once programmed, they seem to work > just fine. K155RE3? (К155РЕ3) I've had to repair a stepper motor controller from some CNC grinding machine lately. Luckily I had 2 such controllers, one with a working ROM (some TIBPxxx) and I had K155RE3 in a box. I've programmed it with an Labtool48 using Dataman48 Software on Windows. The Dataman ist the same thing as the Labtool. It programmed the ROMs successfully as 74S188, but the first peace failed to program correctly. Programming was relatively fast, below 2 seconds with verify. Regards, -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 i...@tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs
... and also has many rare ones in stock; reasonable prices, good guy! On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:38 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-09-27 9:23 a.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad > > bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is > > organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the > open-collector > > driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has > > "healed"). > > > > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for > > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the > faster > > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few > on > > Ebay. > > > > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of > > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer > > had (somewhat) different algorithms. > > > > Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program > > these PROMs? > > > > Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off > > programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming > > sequence)? > > > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom Hunter > > > http://www.eprompro.com/Index.html > Does PROMS. > Ben. > >
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs
On 2021-09-27 9:23 a.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the open-collector driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has "healed"). The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on Ebay. How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer had (somewhat) different algorithms. Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program these PROMs? Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming sequence)? Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter http://www.eprompro.com/Index.html Does PROMS. Ben.
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs (Tom Hunter)
From: Tom Hunter Subject: Programming Bipolar PROMs The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on Ebay. How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer had (somewhat) different algorithms. I built a project using Russian clones of the 74188, and ended up building a programmer for them. The programming process is slow (over a minute to program 32 bytes), draws quite a bit of power (the chip is uncomfortably warm afterwards), and it took a while to work out the programming algorithm. Also, as Tom Hunter mentioned, the programming process isn't perfect - about 5% don't program correctly; I don't know if this is my algorithm or the fact that the clones aren't so good. However, once programmed, they seem to work just fine. I bought the Russian devices off eBay for cheap - I think they were about $0.20 apiece, so I got a hundred of them, which I've been slowly nibbling away at as my little product sells. I still have several dozen left; if you'd like you could send me the hex file (or listing - it's only 32 bytes, which I could type in), and I could program a couple for you. I'm not sure I could recommend building your own programmer. It's obviously possible, and there are hand-operated versions floating around on the internet (really hand-operated: set a rotary switch for the bit and five address switches, turn on the power, and push a button for 1-1/2 seconds; repeat for every "1" bit in the PROM), but you'd need more than just the Arduino. You need eight high-side drivers that will handle an amp apiece, plus another driver to switch the power supply voltage between 5 and 13.5 volts, as well as writing a program to implement the algorithm. (actually, it's slow enough that you could get by using relays for all the higher voltage switching.) I don't believe that any modern programmer handles these - if the Data I/O does, then that's probably your only option. ~~ Mark Moulding
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:20 AM Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > The 82S23 programming algorithm is in the 1975 Signetics Bipolar Memories > databook (also on bitsavers). > Looks like it may be a little more complex than that for the 188. http://www.bitsavers.org/components/signetics/_dataBooks/1977_Signetics_Bipolar_and_MOS_Memory.pdf Page 91, timing diagram on Page 92 82S23 PROGRAMMING PROCEDURE 1. Terminate all device outputs with a 10K Ohm resistor to Vcc. 2. Select the address to be programmed, and raise Vcc to Vccp = +10 ± 0.5V. 3. After 10us delay, apply Iout = 65 ± 3mA to the output to be programmed. Program one output at a time. 4. After 10us delay, pulse the /CE input to logic low for 0.3 to 0.5us. 5. After 10us delay, remove Iout from the programmed output. 6. After 10us delay, return Vcc to 0V. 7. To verify programming, after 50us delay, raise Vcc to Vcch = +5.5 ± 0.2V, and apply a logic low level to the /CE input. The programmed output should remain in the high state. Again, lower Vcc to Vccl = +4.5 ± 0.2V, and verify that the programmed output remains in the high state. 8. Raise Vcc to Vccp = +10 ± 0.5V and repeat steps 3 through 7 to program other bits at the same address. 9. After 10us delay, repeat steps 2 through 8 to program all other address locations. http://www.bitsavers.org/components/signetics/_dataBooks/1975_Signetics_Bipolar_Memories.pdf Page 24, timing diagram on Page 25 Same as above, except different timing in step 4. 4. After 10us delay, pulse the /CE input to logic "0" for 1 to 2 ms. (of course in case of typos above, refer to the manuals)
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs
On 2021-Sep-27, at 10:52 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2021-Sep-27, at 8:23 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad >> bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is >> organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the open-collector >> driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has >> "healed"). >> >> The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for >> example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster >> SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on >> Ebay. >> >> How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of >> the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer >> had (somewhat) different algorithms. >> >> Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program >> these PROMs? >> >> Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off >> programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming >> sequence)? > ... > Details of the 74S188 programming/burn algorithm is in the 1975 TI Memory > Databook for Design Engineers (available at bitsavers) (I expect the 188 is > the most likely type you'll find NOS today). The 82S23 programming algorithm is in the 1975 Signetics Bipolar Memories databook (also on bitsavers). Looks like it may be a little more complex than that for the 188.
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 8:23 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on > Ebay. > > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer > had (somewhat) different algorithms. > > Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program > these PROMs? > How do you program a single bipolar PROM as a one time occurance? Find someone willing to do it for you for the cost of the postage :) Are there affordable commercial programmers which can reliably program bipolar PROMs with device vendor approved programming algorithms? I have an older Data I/O UniSite and a newer BP Microsystems BP-1610 which between the two of them can cover the majority of those older devices, and the BP-1610 is currently supported with regular software updates. I wouldn't call either of those two programmers "affordable", and you have to be patient to pick one up on eBay. The older parallel port interface BP-1200 and BP-1400 device programmers probably have the same bipolar PROM support as the BP-1610, and can more often be found at somewhat reasonable prices on eBay, but software updates for new devices were discontinued for those non-USB interface programmers several years ago.
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs
On 2021-Sep-27, at 8:23 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad > bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is > organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the open-collector > driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has > "healed"). > > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on > Ebay. > > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer > had (somewhat) different algorithms. > > Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program > these PROMs? > > Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off > programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming > sequence)? The hardware & software for a one-off breadboarded programmer is, or should be, easy enough with a ~ few-hours/1-day effort if you wanted to go that route. I did this 8 years ago for a PROM in a HP9830 - a 256*4 Intel 3601 PROM, for which I burned, and replaced with, a TI 74S387. (In the end in turned out it was an unnecessary effort, one data-line from the PROM was showing bad but the failure wasn't the PROM output, it was the input of the IC the PROM was driving.) Programmer hardware was 3 TTL ICs, 2 zeners, 6 transistors (more specifically 2+numDataLines) and a few resistors on a solderless breadboard, and a bench power supply for the programming voltage. Software was a python program running on a RPi. All program-pulse timing was done in user-land on the RPi. I can send along the schematic and program if you wish, there will be some adaptation required of course. Details of the 74S188 programming/burn algorithm is in the 1975 TI Memory Databook for Design Engineers (available at bitsavers) (I expect the 188 is the most likely type you'll find NOS today).
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs
On 9/27/21 10:05 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Most of these older fused PROMs are of comparable speed in newer > EPROMs or E2PROMs. Open collector is a hassle but not too much. One > can create the needed circuits using surface mount parts for size > reduction. A hassle but not out of the question. You usually have to > go to a larger ROM size so it can be used for additional storage with > a switch or jumper select. In some cases, if you're handy with logic tables, it's sometimes possible to program a GAL to act as a bipolar PROM substitute. --Chuck
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs
On Mon, 27 Sept 2021 at 17:23, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad > bipolar PROM on the CPU board. Maybe it was just feeling depressed this week. Try it again next week and you might find it works... maybe even really fast? (Sorry if my attempt at humour upsets anyone.) -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs
Most of these older fused PROMs are of comparable speed in newer EPROMs or E2PROMs. Open collector is a hassle but not too much. One can create the needed circuits using surface mount parts for size reduction. A hassle but not out of the question. You usually have to go to a larger ROM size so it can be used for additional storage with a switch or jumper select. Dwight From: cctalk on behalf of Brian Marstella via cctalk Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 9:16 AM To: Jay West ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs I recently picked up an EPROM+ programming unit ( https://www.arlabs.com/eprom_plus.html) from eBay used in order to program a couple of PROMs. Unfortunately, I haven't actually tried it yet but the 82S23 and others are supported. The owner of the company seems to be extremely responsive to any and all questions and has a lot of documentation on the web site. On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:48 AM jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > Jon wrote... > I can do them with the Data I/O 29B and UniPak 2B. Some of the other > UniPaks can handle them too. They are one of those devices that most of the > newer commercial programmers can't do. I wouldn't call the Data I/O really > affordable, though. > -- > Same, I use a data i/o 29B for these. Jon is right, the 29B seems to have > held significant value $-wise still on ebay. But you can find a reasonable > deal once in a while. > > And > Watch out buying blanks on eBay, they're often pulls and are actually > already programmed. Also the yield was not 100% even back in the day, > apparently, so buy several to ensure you do get a good one. > -- > I gave up trying to find any quantities of the 3 or 4 different bipolar > proms used for the HP 2100/21MX line on ebay. I had significant luck > contacting arcade game repair houses, and got a reasonable quantity of most > all the flavors I needed. I checked back a couple years ago and all the > usual arcade places no longer had them ☹ > > I do believe I saw a writeup on the web somewhere where someone took a > different chip and programmed it to act like a (now) rare bipolar prom. I > don't recall how successful it was - I'd imagine the speed of the bipolars > would be an issue, plus ISTR height was an issue too (new chip was on a > carrier of sorts, creating headroom issues on some systems). > > J > > >
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs
I recently picked up an EPROM+ programming unit ( https://www.arlabs.com/eprom_plus.html) from eBay used in order to program a couple of PROMs. Unfortunately, I haven't actually tried it yet but the 82S23 and others are supported. The owner of the company seems to be extremely responsive to any and all questions and has a lot of documentation on the web site. On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:48 AM jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > Jon wrote... > I can do them with the Data I/O 29B and UniPak 2B. Some of the other > UniPaks can handle them too. They are one of those devices that most of the > newer commercial programmers can't do. I wouldn't call the Data I/O really > affordable, though. > -- > Same, I use a data i/o 29B for these. Jon is right, the 29B seems to have > held significant value $-wise still on ebay. But you can find a reasonable > deal once in a while. > > And > Watch out buying blanks on eBay, they're often pulls and are actually > already programmed. Also the yield was not 100% even back in the day, > apparently, so buy several to ensure you do get a good one. > -- > I gave up trying to find any quantities of the 3 or 4 different bipolar > proms used for the HP 2100/21MX line on ebay. I had significant luck > contacting arcade game repair houses, and got a reasonable quantity of most > all the flavors I needed. I checked back a couple years ago and all the > usual arcade places no longer had them ☹ > > I do believe I saw a writeup on the web somewhere where someone took a > different chip and programmed it to act like a (now) rare bipolar prom. I > don't recall how successful it was - I'd imagine the speed of the bipolars > would be an issue, plus ISTR height was an issue too (new chip was on a > carrier of sorts, creating headroom issues on some systems). > > J > > >
RE: Programming Bipolar PROMs
Jon wrote... I can do them with the Data I/O 29B and UniPak 2B. Some of the other UniPaks can handle them too. They are one of those devices that most of the newer commercial programmers can't do. I wouldn't call the Data I/O really affordable, though. -- Same, I use a data i/o 29B for these. Jon is right, the 29B seems to have held significant value $-wise still on ebay. But you can find a reasonable deal once in a while. And Watch out buying blanks on eBay, they're often pulls and are actually already programmed. Also the yield was not 100% even back in the day, apparently, so buy several to ensure you do get a good one. -- I gave up trying to find any quantities of the 3 or 4 different bipolar proms used for the HP 2100/21MX line on ebay. I had significant luck contacting arcade game repair houses, and got a reasonable quantity of most all the flavors I needed. I checked back a couple years ago and all the usual arcade places no longer had them ☹ I do believe I saw a writeup on the web somewhere where someone took a different chip and programmed it to act like a (now) rare bipolar prom. I don't recall how successful it was - I'd imagine the speed of the bipolars would be an issue, plus ISTR height was an issue too (new chip was on a carrier of sorts, creating headroom issues on some systems). J
Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs
I can do them with the Data I/O 29B and UniPak 2B. Some of the other UniPaks can handle them too. They are one of those devices that most of the newer commercial programmers can't do. I wouldn't call the Data I/O really affordable, though. If you want to send us a blank we can program it for you, or we probably have some blanks for that part # on hand. Watch out buying blanks on eBay, they're often pulls and are actually already programmed. Also the yield was not 100% even back in the day, apparently, so buy several to ensure you do get a good one. Thanks, Jonathan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Monday, September 27th, 2021 at 11:23, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad > > bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is > > organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the open-collector > > driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has > > "healed"). > > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for > > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster > > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on > > Ebay. > > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of > > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer > > had (somewhat) different algorithms. > > Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program > > these PROMs? > > Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off > > programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming > > sequence)? > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom Hunter
Programming Bipolar PROMs
While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the open-collector driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has "healed"). The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the faster SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few on Ebay. How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer had (somewhat) different algorithms. Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program these PROMs? Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming sequence)? Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter
