Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 7:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Much to my surprise, a P3 Intel i820 (that's the one with RDRAM) FIC > board not only handles FM, but 128-byte sector MFM. > Well, great, but then what do you do when you want to read and write 80 (decimal) byte MFM sectors? :-)
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 02/01/2018 10:25 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > 50-pin edge 37-pin Dsub 34-pin edge > --- --- --- > 1 20 GND > 2 2 (TG43) > 9 25 GND > 10 7 N/C > 11 37 GND > 12 19 34 (Ready) > 13 36 GND > 14 18 32 (Side1) > 17 28 GND > 18 10 16 (Motor ON/Load) > 19 24 GND > 20 6 8 (Index) > 21 27 GND > 22 9 N/C > 25 26 GND > 26 8 12 (DS1->DS0) > 33 29 GND > 34 11 18 (Direction) > 35 30 GND > 36 12 20 (Step) > 37 31 GND > 38 13 22 (Write Data) > 39 32 GND > 40 14 24 (Write Gate) > 41 33 GND > 42 15 26 (Track 0) > 43 34 GND > 44 16 28 (Write Protect) > 45 35 GND > 46 17 30 (Read Data) There's also a wiring list in the CompatiCard IV manual, from what, 20 years ago and a description of the cable in the 22Disk manual from (has it been that long?) 30 years ago. Nihil sub sole novum. --Chuck
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
plc companies aka industrial companies do these weird things to force u to buy their hardware and be locked in.. ge faunic had their workmaster systems for interfacing into series one six 90/ series systems ect u could get away with a 5155 or a p70 as those were what the workmaster 1 and 2 were built from but in black and cost 12-20k new with software and interface card and or searial cable as for the weird plc that did the floppies with that spacing do you remember the manufacture sounds like something siemens would do god their products suck they seem to be really good at going out buying good hardware software and making them disappear On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 12:17 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 02/01/2018 09:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > When I first got a Micropolis drive, I found "100tpi" hard to believe. > > But, interchange attempts showed that by the inner tracks, it was not > > 96tpi, and nor a multiple of 48tpi. > > My homemade developer, and my patience to keep trying weren't good > > enough to be able to successfully do other than take their word for how > > many. > > (Seeing the difference between 96tpi and 100tpi should be easier than > > telling the difference between Leica thread (39mm x 26 Whitworth threads > > per inch) V the early Russian Fed (39mm x 1.0m DIN thread) > > some of the earliest Canon imitations (39mm x 24tpi thread)) > > Other than a brief encounter with an SA400 (single-sided 48 tpi. 35 > cylinders), the Micropolis 100 tpi drives were my first real run in with > 5.25" drives. > > Great drives, heavy, built like a tank--and expensive. I've got a > late-model 96 tpi Micropolis that illustrates their NIH mindset--the PCB > pivots as you close the door latch. Still used the precision-ground > leadscrew positioner. Buffered seek; something like 4 steps per > cylinder, if you can believe it. > > ISTR that if you stick a formatted 100 tpi ddisk in a 96 tpi drive and > do a read ID, the first cylinder reads as 6. That is, the 100 tpi disk > is offset a bit more toward the outside of the disk. You can read a few > cylinders after that, before the misregistration causes things to get > weird. > > --Chuck > > >
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 2/1/2018 2:52 PM, Ali wrote: This is true. I have the pinouts at home if anyone wants them, I can post them when I get home from work. Josh, That would be great. Thanks. -Ali . Here's what I have, from notes I took about 10 years ago when I built a cable after beeping things out. The YE-DATA drive itself uses the standard Shugart interface, IIRC. The below table lists the 50-pin edge connector pins of interest, the 37-pin d-sub on the back of the drive unit, and the 34-pin PC floppy cable. I make no guarantees, but it worked for me: 50-pin edge 37-pin Dsub 34-pin edge --- --- --- 1 20 GND 2 2 (TG43) 9 25 GND 10 7 N/C 11 37 GND 12 19 34 (Ready) 13 36 GND 14 18 32 (Side1) 17 28 GND 18 10 16 (Motor ON/Load) 19 24 GND 20 6 8 (Index) 21 27 GND 22 9 N/C 25 26 GND 26 8 12 (DS1->DS0) 33 29 GND 34 11 18 (Direction) 35 30 GND 36 12 20 (Step) 37 31 GND 38 13 22 (Write Data) 39 32 GND 40 14 24 (Write Gate) 41 33 GND 42 15 26 (Track 0) 43 34 GND 44 16 28 (Write Protect) 45 35 GND 46 17 30 (Read Data)
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 02/01/2018 09:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > When I first got a Micropolis drive, I found "100tpi" hard to believe. > But, interchange attempts showed that by the inner tracks, it was not > 96tpi, and nor a multiple of 48tpi. > My homemade developer, and my patience to keep trying weren't good > enough to be able to successfully do other than take their word for how > many. > (Seeing the difference between 96tpi and 100tpi should be easier than > telling the difference between Leica thread (39mm x 26 Whitworth threads > per inch) V the early Russian Fed (39mm x 1.0m DIN thread) > some of the earliest Canon imitations (39mm x 24tpi thread)) Other than a brief encounter with an SA400 (single-sided 48 tpi. 35 cylinders), the Micropolis 100 tpi drives were my first real run in with 5.25" drives. Great drives, heavy, built like a tank--and expensive. I've got a late-model 96 tpi Micropolis that illustrates their NIH mindset--the PCB pivots as you close the door latch. Still used the precision-ground leadscrew positioner. Buffered seek; something like 4 steps per cylinder, if you can believe it. ISTR that if you stick a formatted 100 tpi ddisk in a 96 tpi drive and do a read ID, the first cylinder reads as 6. That is, the 100 tpi disk is offset a bit more toward the outside of the disk. You can read a few cylinders after that, before the misregistration causes things to get weird. --Chuck
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
there was 8in floppy drives still being sold in the mid 90's On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:23 PM, David Schmidt via cctech < cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2/1/2018 1:00 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:> ibm had 8in floppy drives in > their black from the times of white? > This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line. Mine is dated 1994. > > - David >
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Yeah, I've got an old ABCD manual printer switch with the "centronics" connectors that swaps all 36 lines, but it always seemed like more trouble than it was worth, so it resides in a storage cabinet. I use a rack-mounted PC with a couple of DC37s on the front panel, so swapping boxes is pretty simple. But, if you don't have one, YOU might like: https://www.ebay.com/itm/282828648805 I can no longer justify such a purchase :-( (More stuff that I used to want) I've seen some bizarre stuff, but the one that takes the cake was a boot floppy from a PLC. Said PLC was equipped with two floppy drives--one for booting only and the other for user data. The boot floppy had a very oddball track spacing; something like 120 tpi; the user floppy was a normal 135 tpi. This was measured with developer (Kyread) and a microscope. I just couldn't believe that a manufacturer would go to that length. I guess the PLC manufacturer didn't want their software to be copied. Needless to say, replacement boot floppy drives were near unobtanium and stupid expensive when you could find one. That IS weird! Unless, . . . In the unlikely event that they were clueless enough to have altered the track spacing, but left the rest of the drive and interface alone, in which case it could be connected to a "standard" FDC to make an image, and maybe even then replace the modified drive with a standard one. (Or something as terminally weird, like the Tandy PDD1) When I first got a Micropolis drive, I found "100tpi" hard to believe. But, interchange attempts showed that by the inner tracks, it was not 96tpi, and nor a multiple of 48tpi. My homemade developer, and my patience to keep trying weren't good enough to be able to successfully do other than take their word for how many. (Seeing the difference between 96tpi and 100tpi should be easier than telling the difference between Leica thread (39mm x 26 Whitworth threads per inch) V the early Russian Fed (39mm x 1.0m DIN thread) some of the earliest Canon imitations (39mm x 24tpi thread))
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
Well, I think they're overpriced, but here you go: http://www.jdr.com/product_p/bkt-d37.htm JDR sold all of their ISA prototype boards with a DC-37 bracket also. --Chuck
RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Ali wrote: I have been toying with making a bunch of brackets for odd connectors (I haven't seen a bracket that has holes cut for DC37 for example readily available for purchase). A friend of mine has access to an industrial laser cutter and has told me he would be happy to cut brackets in quantity for free Ah, yes. Back in those days, people were throwing away "low density" (5150,5160) disk controller boards. When Doctor Marty reverse-engineered the Flagstaff Engineering mods to 5150 FDC for 8" SSSD, he was paying about $1 each for them. But, for me, when XT (with 8 slots) replaced PC (with 5 slots), the generic XT cases that I was using came with bags of slightly narrower brackets for converting cards made for PC to the narrower bracket. And I once paid a few dollars for a box of those bags of brackets at Foothill. 50 for ~$50 https://www.ebay.com/itm/162634914268 But, I had to call it "DB37" to find it. THAT is depressing. I'm gonna have a shot of Tequila. Much better now. HERE IS WHAT WE NEED! : HERE IS WHAT WE NEED! : https://www.ebay.com/itm/282828648805 $78.81 + $9.85 S/H Greenlee 234 37-pin d-subminiature chassis/panel punch A few for $110 Buy-it-now with free shipping It's quite a bit more expensive new, at Mouser, Amazon, etc. If anybody here buys it, you gotta at least let Ali, me, and Chuck use it a few times, . . . This whole damn hobby is about lusting after stuff that we wanted 30+ years ago! 35 years ago, the last GOOD department chair of CS at the college agreed with me, and we bought a DB25 Greenlee punch.
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 02/01/2018 07:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > IFF you ever decide that you need the FDADAP (TG43), then it could go > into a tiny inline project box with a DC37M input and DC37F output. > > IFF you wanted to use switch boxes, as I did, you would need one DC37M > to DC37M cable (screwed permanently onto the input of the switchbox). I > had expected to have noise or connection problems with the switchboxes, > but it never happened. Cheap crap was a lot better in those days! Yeah, I've got an old ABCD manual printer switch with the "centronics" connectors that swaps all 36 lines, but it always seemed like more trouble than it was worth, so it resides in a storage cabinet. I use a rack-mounted PC with a couple of DC37s on the front panel, so swapping boxes is pretty simple. I've seen some bizarre stuff, but the one that takes the cake was a boot floppy from a PLC. Said PLC was equipped with two floppy drives--one for booting only and the other for user data. The boot floppy had a very oddball track spacing; something like 120 tpi; the user floppy was a normal 135 tpi. This was measured with developer (Kyread) and a microscope. I just couldn't believe that a manufacturer would go to that length. I guess the PLC manufacturer didn't want their software to be copied. Needless to say, replacement boot floppy drives were near unobtanium and stupid expensive when you could find one. --Chuck
RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
> If it's not going to be simply spread out accross the table, then I
> would rather use DC37, not HD50 and 50 pin Blue Ribbon ("Centronics")
>
> 34 to DC37 in the PC.
> DC37 to DC37 from PC to drive case
> FDADAP inside the 8" drive case.
>
> ALL drive cabling done with connectors that are normally used for
> floppies; no "SCSI" connectors to confuse the unwary.
So would I Fred, but I have not found 34 to DC37 adapters readily. The SCSI
stuff is out there for easy purchasing - at least for now. Plus many people
have drives in cases already w/ 50 pin connectors on them (I have a couple
and that is what that cable is being used for) so a DC37 to DC37 cable is no
bueno...
I have been toying with making a bunch of brackets for odd connectors (I
haven't seen a bracket that has holes cut for DC37 for example readily
available for purchase). A friend of mine has access to an industrial laser
cutter and has told me he would be happy to cut brackets in quantity for
free
-Ali
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: IN my case, all of my drives are terminated in DC37M connectors and my controllers have DC37F.Half-height and 3.5" drives are housed in old IBM 4569 boxes (we bought 50 of the things back in the day) and the 8" and FH 5.25" have their own external boxes with PSU. So, no matter what I want to do, it's a matter of plugging something in and turning it on. Need a 100 tpi drive? Just grab it off the shelf and plug it in. That extents to not only PC floppy controllers, but things such as Catweasels (I fit them with a buffer board ending in a DC37F on a bracket) and even my WD-based controllers and my MCU setups. It streamlines the process greatly. The RIGHT way to do it! I never got around to doing it right. You probably put everything into boxes with power supplies, and NEVER "just temporarily" connect a drive sitting loose. Nor even try to "apply gentle pressure" on head positioner to try to read a disk written out of alignment (surprisingly, it worked with extra, but not unreasonable amount of, retries!) Yeah, I know, the right way would be to misalign a drive, and then re-align it. IFF you ever decide that you need the FDADAP (TG43), then it could go into a tiny inline project box with a DC37M input and DC37F output. IFF you wanted to use switch boxes, as I did, you would need one DC37M to DC37M cable (screwed permanently onto the input of the switchbox). I had expected to have noise or connection problems with the switchboxes, but it never happened.Cheap crap was a lot better in those days!
RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote:
Of course if you want to get fancy w/ the FDADP: www.ibm51xx.net ;)
If it's not going to be simply spread out accross the table, then
I would rather use DC37, not HD50 and 50 pin Blue Ribbon ("Centronics")
34 to DC37 in the PC.
DC37 to DC37 from PC to drive case
FDADAP inside the 8" drive case.
ALL drive cabling done with connectors that are normally used for
floppies; no "SCSI" connectors to confuse the unwary.
(Of course, I had been working in a college, where people routinely
connected 5150 keyboard to cassette connector, connected MDA and CGA
monitors to the wrong video boards, monitor and early Microsoft bus mouse
to each other's boards, PC printer to Mac-Plus DB25 (SCSI), and tried to
use gender changer adapters to interchange printer and modem connections!
("But we NEED two printers on that computer, and the other port is the
wrong gender.") The lab "technicians" eventually learned. Some of the
teachers never learned.)
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 02/01/2018 07:17 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > If you want to get fancy, there used to be readily available DC37 on a > bracket with short cable 34 pin header adapters, for using external > drives on machines after 5160 (after 5160, IBM stopped including a DC37 > on the FDC card). IBM sold one of those along with its external 720K > 3.5". > Then, if you really don't want stuff visible, put the FDADAP (or > similar) inside the case for the 8" drive. Now you have an 8" drive > that connects as if it were a 5.25" external. IN my case, all of my drives are terminated in DC37M connectors and my controllers have DC37F.Half-height and 3.5" drives are housed in old IBM 4569 boxes (we bought 50 of the things back in the day) and the 8" and FH 5.25" have their own external boxes with PSU. So, no matter what I want to do, it's a matter of plugging something in and turning it on. Need a 100 tpi drive? Just grab it off the shelf and plug it in. That extents to not only PC floppy controllers, but things such as Catweasels (I fit them with a buffer board ending in a DC37F on a bracket) and even my WD-based controllers and my MCU setups. It streamlines the process greatly. --Chuck
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I guess--using crimp type DC37M connectors, it's not a big deal to go from 50 conductor ribbon to DC 37. I've even got a couple adapter PCBs that go from 50 pin to 34 pin headers. Which, other than the TG43 feature, is what FDADAP is. If you want to get fancy, there used to be readily available DC37 on a bracket with short cable 34 pin header adapters, for using external drives on machines after 5160 (after 5160, IBM stopped including a DC37 on the FDC card). IBM sold one of those along with its external 720K 3.5". Then, if you really don't want stuff visible, put the FDADAP (or similar) inside the case for the 8" drive. Now you have an 8" drive that connects as if it were a 5.25" external. I simply used a larger table. I had an AT, with no lid for its case on the table, an 8" drive on the table, a power supply on the table; the "other" 4096 on the table, along with a PC power supply for it, a DC37 A/B/C switch box, a small box with its own power supply with 3", 3.25", and 3.5" drives. That AT also had an Eiconscript board for HP PCL and Postscript, cabled to another DC37 A/B/C switch sitting on a Corona Data Systems CX printer (which also connected to Cordata and Jlaser boards in other PCs.) There was no need to snake cables out of bracket slots, because there never was a lid. My 2.8M, Floptical, and CD-ROM drives were on other PCs.
RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
> > > Well, it's a lot easier than hamburgering cable together. > > I guess--using crimp type DC37M connectors, it's not a big deal to go > from 50 conductor ribbon to DC 37. I've even got a couple adapter PCBs > that go from 50 pin to 34 pin headers. Of course if you want to get fancy w/ the FDADP: www.ibm51xx.net ;) -Ali
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 02/01/2018 06:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Well, it's a lot easier than hamburgering cable together. I guess--using crimp type DC37M connectors, it's not a big deal to go from 50 conductor ribbon to DC 37. I've even got a couple adapter PCBs that go from 50 pin to 34 pin headers. --Chuck
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
Exactly what does a FDADP do for *reading*? Nothing that I can figure,
other than re-arrange the 50 line SA-800 interface to a 34-line SA-400
type.
"Current" versions ("since 2009") have two small 7-segment LEDs that
display current track number.
THAT might be handy sometime, although most such times are amenable to
software methods.
Analagous example: When installing the beta version of Windows 3.10, it
would hit an unrecoverable error at a certain point. But, SMARTDRV
wouldn't permit anything other then futile further retries (since
SMARTDRV had already reported SUCCESS), or abort the installation, at
which time, it destroyed all indication of where on the
disk the problem was. Neither SSTOR nor Spinrite could find the
consistent bad spot. If I had known cylinder and head, I could have
trivially mapped out the bad spot. I should have written a TSR to be able
to interrupt and find out! (Without SMARTDRV, I could have done
an "Ignore" and renamed the specific file that failed into "BADSECS", and
written another copy of that file to another location.) I told MS Win31
beta support that write-cacheing of SMARTDRV (which at that point could
not be turned off!) was capable of creating disasters that would
ultimately force recalls (DOS 6.00 to 6.20 replacement); they said that it
was a HARDWARE problem, not THEIR problem, and that it was not the
responsibility of the OS to find, work around, nor recover gracefully from
hardware problems.
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 02/01/2018 07:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 02/01/2018 03:40 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: >>> but dbit.com offers an adapter called an >>> FDADAP that >>> lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller. I have a couple >>> and they work great. >> I second that. I've got one and works just as it should. >> >> Terry (Tez) > Exactly what does a FDADP do for *reading*? Nothing that I can figure, > other than re-arrange the 50 line SA-800 interface to a 34-line SA-400 type. > > For those drives that require RWC/TG40 signals, I agree that *writing* > may benefit from it. > Well, it's a lot easier than hamburgering cable together. bill
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
I'll also add the Jonathan (Glitch) has taken over the "what motherboards can do what with floppies" list. Interestingly, a lot of later legacy-floppy equipped motherboards do very well with regards to supporting FM reading/writing--yes, even P4, AM3+ and other boards. (N.B., I said "later" not "recent" or "bleeding edge"). Much to my surprise, a P3 Intel i820 (that's the one with RDRAM) FIC board not only handles FM, but 128-byte sector MFM. P1 and 486 boards with integrated floppy controllers tend to be very spotty on anything but MFM support. Check glitch's table--there's an "fdtest" utility that will tell you what your FDC can do--or not. --Chuck
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
If it IS SA800/850, then FPADAP, http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html is an easy way to handle the cabling. The website say that they have 5 in stock, so order immediately if you need it! On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: It doesn't guarantee that you will be able to read most (because of shortcomings in the PC floppy controller) but dbit.com offers an adapter called an FDADAP that lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller. I have a couple and they work great. I agree. I always made my own cables, but I did mention [ABOVE] that FDADAP is the easy way to handle the cabling. First cable that I made, I used a solderless bread-board, and looking at both pinouts, started placing wires. Once I saw what I was ending up with, subsequent cables were a flat 34 pin cable, that I peeled out a few wires, and very carefully held them in place to crimp on a 50 pin connector.
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
> > > But, you have to tread very carefully. Because SOMETIMES [now rarely], > they could mean the PRE-5150 definition where "IBM compatible" meant > 3740/SSSD 8" with 128 byte sectors. > 5150 really was a danger to itself and/or others; it totally destroyed the > meaning ot "IBM compatible" disks. > Indeed! But in this case he did mean MS-DOS compatible. I asked him if by IBM compatible he meant MS-DOS compatible and indeed that's what he meant. Terry (Tez)
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
but dbit.com offers an adapter called an FDADAP that lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller. I have a couple and they work great. On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Exactly what does a FDADP do for *reading*? Nothing that I can figure, other than re-arrange the 50 line SA-800 interface to a 34-line SA-400 type. for reading, it doesn't do anything other than cabling. It means using a flat 34 cable and a flat 50 cable, without the trivial effort of making your own 34 to 50 cable. For those drives that require RWC/TG40 signals, I agree that *writing* may benefit from it. THAT is the part that my homemade cables don't do. But, it was extremely rare that I needed to WRITE 8". When I did have to, I tried to write to fresh empty disks, so that I could stay mostly on lower numbered tracks.
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
DOS/Windoze will have absolutely no idea how to understand what is on the disk. On Fri, 2 Feb 2018, Terry Stewart wrote: Makes me thinks of the time a few months ago when a lab on our campus wanted me to read some 8 inch disks in the archives for them. The IT manager said "I think they are IBM-compatible" (and by that he meant IBM-PC compatible i.e MS-DOS). I thought "yea, right." They weren't of course. But, you have to tread very carefully. Because SOMETIMES [now rarely], they could mean the PRE-5150 definition where "IBM compatible" meant 3740/SSSD 8" with 128 byte sectors. 5150 really was a danger to itself and/or others; it totally destroyed the meaning ot "IBM compatible" disks.
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 02/01/2018 03:40 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: >> but dbit.com offers an adapter called an >> FDADAP that >> lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller. I have a couple >> and they work great. > > I second that. I've got one and works just as it should. > > Terry (Tez) Exactly what does a FDADP do for *reading*? Nothing that I can figure, other than re-arrange the 50 line SA-800 interface to a 34-line SA-400 type. For those drives that require RWC/TG40 signals, I agree that *writing* may benefit from it. --Chuck
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
>but dbit.com offers an adapter called an >FDADAP that >lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller. I have a couple >and they work great. I second that. I've got one and works just as it should. Terry (Tez)
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 02/01/2018 06:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM >> PC compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere >> and if I recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive >> so it should be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok. > > If it is a 50 pin edge connector, then it is LIKELY that it follows > the Shugart 800/850 pinout. BUT, it is still a good idea to find and > check the pinout of the specific model drive, since some added > additional signals and/or repurposed pins for other purposes. > And, check the drive specific pinout for power connections! > 5.25" drives had a standardized power connection. > 8" drives do NOT have standardized power connections. Not all used > the same power nor connector nor pinout as Shugart. In addition to > 5VDC, you may need 24V or 12V, and maybe even -5VDC, or even AC. > > > If it IS SA800/850, then FPADAP, > http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html > is an easy way to handle the cabling. > The website say that they have 5 in stock, > so order immediately if you need it! > > If you are reading ONLY, and not writing to the drive, then you do not > need the TG43 signal and circuitry, in which case it is trivial to > make your own cable. The majority of the 5.25" (SA400) signals are > even in the same order, so you can start with a 34 pin flat cable, > peel out a small handful of the wires, and crimp them in a 50 pin IDC > edge connector. > YMMV. > It doesn't guarantee that you will be able to read most (because of shortcomings in the PC floppy controller) but dbit.com offers an adapter called an FDADAP that lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller. I have a couple and they work great. bill
RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote: Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM PC compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere and if I recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive so it should be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok. If it is a 50 pin edge connector, then it is LIKELY that it follows the Shugart 800/850 pinout. BUT, it is still a good idea to find and check the pinout of the specific model drive, since some added additional signals and/or repurposed pins for other purposes. And, check the drive specific pinout for power connections! 5.25" drives had a standardized power connection. 8" drives do NOT have standardized power connections. Not all used the same power nor connector nor pinout as Shugart. In addition to 5VDC, you may need 24V or 12V, and maybe even -5VDC, or even AC. If it IS SA800/850, then FPADAP, http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html is an easy way to handle the cabling. The website say that they have 5 in stock, so order immediately if you need it! If you are reading ONLY, and not writing to the drive, then you do not need the TG43 signal and circuitry, in which case it is trivial to make your own cable. The majority of the 5.25" (SA400) signals are even in the same order, so you can start with a 34 pin flat cable, peel out a small handful of the wires, and crimp them in a 50 pin IDC edge connector. YMMV.
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
> > > DOS/Windoze will have absolutely no idea how to understand what is on the > disk. > > Makes me thinks of the time a few months ago when a lab on our campus wanted me to read some 8 inch disks in the archives for them. The IT manager said "I think they are IBM-compatible" (and by that he meant IBM-PC compatible i.e MS-DOS). I thought "yea, right." They weren't of course. Terry (Tez)
RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
> This is true. I have the pinouts at home if anyone wants them, I can > post them when I get home from work. Josh, That would be great. Thanks. -Ali
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard" drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC. On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: The drives may be standard, but I am curious how standard the format of what's on the disk is. How likely is it that a PC OS from the last ~30 years will understand how to read what's on the disk? Or, I'm guessing it's likely that archival programs don't need to understand how to read the disk format for raw disk imaging. DOS/Windoze will have absolutely no idea how to understand what is on the disk. It is a different file system structure, and DOS/Windoze didn't deal with that. THAT is why there existed programs such as 22Disk, XenoCopy, Uniform, etc. to interpret the file system of disks from CP/M, P-System, TRS-DOS, etc. that had different file system structures, but similar recording methods. There were somewhere around 2500 mutually incompatible floppy formats. (XenoCopy included capability for 400 of them) If the physical track structure is "standard" MFM, then it is possible to read sectors from them. That means that Imagedisk, Teledisk, or a disk file transfer program that has implemented THAT format can read them. If the physical track structure is different, even if using the same disk drive, such as hard-sector, MFM without similar sector headers, MMFM (FM sector headers, MFM data), or GCR (Apple, Commodore, Sirius/Victor, etc.), then you can not read sectors using a PC FDC chip. Nevertheless, flux transition, such as Kryoflux, Cat Weasel, Option Board, can still capture the raw flux transitions, and maybe make sense out of them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 02/01/2018 01:44 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 02/01/2018 02:08 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard" >> drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC. > > The drives may be standard, but I am curious how standard the format of > what's on the disk is. How likely is it that a PC OS from the last ~30 > years will understand how to read what's on the disk? > > Or, I'm guessing it's likely that archival programs don't need to > understand how to read the disk format for raw disk imaging. It's pretty likely that the disks follow one of the standard IBM formats described here: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/floppy/GA21-9182-5_Diskette_General_Information_Manual_Jul80.pdf Pretty much standard FM/MFM; easy enough if you still have a PC with a legacy floppy interface. After that, it's matter of interpreting what you get. Not a big deal, really. --Chuck
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 02/01/2018 02:08 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard" drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC. The drives may be standard, but I am curious how standard the format of what's on the disk is. How likely is it that a PC OS from the last ~30 years will understand how to read what's on the disk? Or, I'm guessing it's likely that archival programs don't need to understand how to read the disk format for raw disk imaging. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 1:08 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 2018-02-01 3:43 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > >> This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line. Mine is dated 1994. >>> >> Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM PC >> compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere and if I >> recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive so it should >> be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok. >> >> The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard" > drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC. > > Paul. > This is true. I have the pinouts at home if anyone wants them, I can post them when I get home from work. However: I will note that the YE-DATA 8" drives have heads that are rough on some 8" media, particularly those prone to shedding. The heads are also a pain to get to to clean after such shedding has taken place. I've stopped using mine for 8" archival for this reason. The Shugart 850/851s are much nicer in this regard (Al suggested them to me awhile back) -- easier on disks, much easier to clean. - Josh
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 2018-02-01 3:43 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line. Mine is dated 1994. Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM PC compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere and if I recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive so it should be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok. The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard" drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC. Paul.
RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
> This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line. Mine is dated 1994. Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM PC compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere and if I recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive so it should be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok.
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
On 2/1/2018 1:00 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:> ibm had 8in floppy drives in their black from the times of white? This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line. Mine is dated 1994. - David
Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
ibm had 8in floppy drives in their black from the times of white? On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 11:56 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Someone shared the following eBay auction in the comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware > newsgroup and I figured that someone subscribed to cctalk might be > interested: > > Link - IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095 > - https://www.ebay.com/itm/183038271095 > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die >
