mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:22 AM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
After careful thought, there are other projects out there that are free CFML
servers. If anyone has/know of one please let me know.
Thanks
Jason L. West, Sr
[EM
05, 2005 11:05
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
I have to disagree with this. There is a difference between a hobbyist and
a developer. The hobbyist might not think that the application would need
some sort of structure to it, but a developer who has
o: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
well - that's the difference between a CF developer and a Java
developer. ALL SITES (let's assume I mean "all dynamic sites" - ignore
static things) require Objects according to the average Java developer.
t: RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
You could outsource the spot? Probally cost you 1k per month for a guy
in India.
-Original Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:48 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: RE: Where are all the mid-lev
At 09:59 AM 5/2/2005, you wrote:
>I did not run the numbers, but my friend who read some of the articles on
>them said it came out to a $23 million per year savings to use their
>approach. I bet that could easily pay for the maint on a ship, but could not
>even imagine what the initial cost of the
I did not run the numbers, but my friend who read some of the articles on
them said it came out to a $23 million per year savings to use their
approach. I bet that could easily pay for the maint on a ship, but could not
even imagine what the initial cost of the ship would be.
On 5/2/05, Fred T.
ROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You could outsource the spot? Probally cost you 1k per month for a guy
> > in India.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:48 PM
> > To: CF-Jobs-Talk
&g
At 05:32 AM 4/30/2005, you wrote:
>I don't know that I agree with this...I know plenty of Java developers
>that haven't done a spot of GUI programing...doesn't mean they
>couldn't learn it to get the job done but you could easily have a mid
>level java architect that hasn't ever made a GUI.
Yes,
I'm loving this thread and still curious.
I have been developing CF since 97 in Chicagoland and
I am 100% self taught (BA in Liberal Ed with a focus
on Child Development and 1 HTML course)
I did read programming books in hopes to get into
development (Basic,Qbasic,C++,Visual Basic, VBA, Java)
and
Only 50+ ? Man, you should see some of the nightmares I have to support
here. One that I have been battling to get to work all week literally had at
least 200k(through loops). Have it down to 59k and one stored proc, which is
still ugly but was a choice of either get it working in CFMX or go bac
On 4/29/05, Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I think I mentioned this before on this list, but...
>
> Ben Forta mentioned (at Powered by Detroit) that one of the "biggest
> recruiting firms in the US" doesn't put CF in the job description when
> looking for CF Developers. They look fo
ditto from me. I have been doing CF for over 5 years now in my company and
every team I have been on has absolutely no code review, code standards,
versioning, etc. I've struggled constantly to get them employedwait
until I'm in charge! LOL! I recently had to 'mentor' two noobs in CF.
Neith
> So if you know Java or .NET, presumably you can do more varied kinds of
> work like more robust back end processing applications or in-house GUI
> tools or shrinkwrapped software.
>
I don't know that I agree with this...I know plenty of Java developers
that haven't done a spot of GUI programing
Nicely put; I agree. Most of the coders in my environment could care
less if is "bad" code (simplistic example but
gives an idea). And yes in our workplace CF has definetely taken the
2nd class rate. It is very frustrating having programers that have not
only ever heard of getters and setters but
At 01:49 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote:
>Rob - I did say "more so". Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code
>and I've seen a lot of bad CF code. However, if you chose 500 CF
>Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you
>picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to
CF is a web application language. It's not a language you can write
multithreaded GUI applications in the way you can in Java or .NET. It's
not a general purpose desktop application language.
So if you know Java or .NET, presumably you can do more varied kinds of
work like more robust back en
My wife is a fast food manager and maybe makes $35,000 in Phoenix.
-Original Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:19 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr
$50K would be about right for the southwest here, but for NY? Seems like
the cost of living would kill much of that.
-Original Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:50 AM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF
at it tends to use more
>resources? Isn't it true that people are willing to make that sacrifice to
>make more manageable code?
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 4:51 PM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject
Maybe, maybe not. Yes there is some minor (very minor) overhead when
instantiating an object and passing data (by reference) to it but not much
more so than using a custom tag or UDF. If you know what your doing and
cache the objects than this overhead is pretty much gone and all your left
with
I think I mentioned this before on this list, but...
Ben Forta mentioned (at Powered by Detroit) that one of the "biggest
recruiting firms in the US" doesn't put CF in the job description when
looking for CF Developers. They look for Java Developers. ( This is all
paraphrased, of course )
to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 4:50 PM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
>Rob wrote:
>
>I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad
>java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspe
mento, CA
>
>"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
>- Cynthia Dunning
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Re: Where are all th
l 29, 2005 4:50 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Rob wrote:
I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad
java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective).
Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the
PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
As I've seen a LOT of CF code in my life, I have to agree. CF is too easy.
It allows someone to get away with murder and it'll still work. That's why
I'm really happy for the push in the CF world towa
ailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
....To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Rob wrote:
I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad
java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology pers
> Rob - I did say "more so". Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code
> and I've seen a lot of bad CF code. However, if you chose 500 CF
> Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you
> picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd
> bet everyth
I'm sure it was.. I've seen lots of bad Java code but it's not as
common to have fundamental design flaws in Java as it is in CF.
~Simon
Simon Horwith
CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com
Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal
Member of Team Macromedia
Macromedia Certified Master
Rob wrote:
I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad
java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective).
Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong
place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in
java as it is in C
As I've seen a LOT of CF code in my life, I have to agree. CF is too easy.
It allows someone to get away with murder and it'll still work. That's why
I'm really happy for the push in the CF world towards OO. Not that it should
be followed religiously, but just learning it will force people to re
> -Original Message-
> From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding techniques
> moreso than CF.
The Java code at one of my first real jobs was an abomination, utter
drivel, so I'd have to disagree with you.
--
Damien McKenna -
I agree with most that (most of the CF jobs I've gotten in the past
were inherited systems), but
> but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding
> techniques moreso than CF.
I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad
java code that was totally wrong (from a method
Perhaps what you think is mid-level, others think is jr level? What does a
Jr level CF person get in that area?
I once applied for a Sr level full time job here with this company I am at
now as a contractor. They never posted the pay range, I just assumed it
wouldbe around what everyone else pa
In a message dated 4/29/2005 1:49:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k
salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate?
In downtown New York City? $50k is way too low.
at the risk of being publicly yelled at, I'll also say that in my
experience, the quality of work of most CF Developers isn't deserving of
a high salary. That's not to say that there aren't Java developers who
write poor code, but Java pretty much "forces" you to use good coding
techniques mor
iel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:48 PM
> To: CF-Jobs-Talk
> Subject: RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
> Like I said earlier, probably most people who work in Manhattan don't
> live in Manhattan - there is easy commute from NJ
You could outsource the spot? Probally cost you 1k per month for a guy
in India.
-Original Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:48 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Like I said earlier, probably
If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application
design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in,
let's say, downtown NY? Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is
for CF developers who are doing only coding???
Daniel
On 4/29/05, Simon Horwith <[EMAIL PRO
PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:43 PM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
>I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and
>50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may
>no
they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do. This
is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers
are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent
architect, programmer, or even tester.
~Simon
Simon Horwith
CIO, AboutWeb - http://w
t;
>-Original Message-
>From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:43 PM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
>I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and
>50k would not
Thats an easy one CF is simple and not [as] complex...java is, rather
has the ability to be much more complex, powerful and robust, not to
say Coldfusion is not powerful infact it is, very powerful, but
limitations are much more easily hit in CF than in Java, or .NET for
those .NET lovers. But th
treet
New York N.Y 10013
T 212-334-3390
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.ecommercepartners.net
www.7Designers.com
Directions to our office
-Original Message-
From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:43 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are al
The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than
others?? Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena!
Daniel
On 4/29/05, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers
> > (which seem to be easier to find too!).
>
>
Ah yeah I see - I am in California and that's median... Cal = 40K
On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dude, that's in new zealand, presumably in New Zealand dollars, which are
> worth alot less than US dollars.
>
> As far as I can tell the average salary for a fast food manage
I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and
50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may
not even consider telecommuting for 50k. I would think 50k in NY
for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect
atleast 55k maybe more d
Hmmm - how come my email address started showing up in the posts?
I'll look forward to the spam from that being harvested :|
> > Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr? I don't think that is
> anywhere near true
>
> Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000
> and
>
And I cant spell to boot...
But really, check out Carl's Jr. Managers - when I got my first CF job
(50K) my dad was *barely* making more than me at like 65K (that was
quite a while ago too)
On 4/29/05, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> BAH! I suck
>
>
>
> On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTE
OK. In response to the need for mid level CF developers in NY, I'm going to
post my availability as a ColdFusion Guru and Mentor to the CF-Jobs list. All
I'll do is be on call to answer clients questions in a way that makes them (the
developers) think on a 'higher level' as well as come in for s
BAH! I suck
But really, check out Carl's Jr. Managers - when I got my first CF job
(50K) my dad was berly making more than me at like 65K (that was quite
a while ago too)
On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dude, that's in new zealand, presumably in New Zealand dollars, which a
My cousin is a manager for Checkers here in NY and he pulls about 75k
per year
-Original Message-
From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:28 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
> Fast food managers earn more than $
Dude, that's in new zealand, presumably in New Zealand dollars, which are worth
alot less than US dollars.
As far as I can tell the average salary for a fast food manager in NY is
$25k/yr.
http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886
> > Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr?
> Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr? I don't think that is anywhere
> near true
Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000 and
$50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business
they work in. Many people are self-employed.
http://www.kiwicareers.g
> > if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior
> developers (which seem to be easier to find too!).
>
> A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
> living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
> went?
>
> I am a senior develope
At 02:34 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote:
>Exactly. W2 has the taxes on income taken out by the employer while a 1099
>expects you to do it. My last 'contract' was supposed to be a W2 but they
>1099ed me instead.
It sounds to me as if you are not eliminating your burden, just the way
its paid.
--
Jef
PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:54 AM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
>LOLone could argue the converse of that, too. Where are all the
>jobs for the mid-level developers? Seriously, this is the first one I
>have
> if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers
> (which seem to be easier to find too!).
A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of
living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers
went?
I am a senior developer and I find 6
I took "advantage" of this last year since a 1099 and self-employed and
needed a new vehicle. I went out and bought a truck that was of the proper
weight class so was able to right off a huge chunk of its purchase price and
that helped me out enormously with taxes for 2004. Too bad I am thus far
Exactly. W2 has the taxes on income taken out by the employer while a 1099
expects you to do it. My last 'contract' was supposed to be a W2 but they
1099ed me instead. As for reducing the burden, I've got children who go to
private school, a wife who does not work outside the house (Fusion Autho
I was curious about that as well. Right now I am doing 1099 and making my
quartly payments. I figure about 35% of my income towards taxes. When I look
at my paychecks I feel like a rich man, too bad once I pay taxes(on my own)
and deal with medical and so on, I am not really clearing a ton of mo
the mid-level CF developers?
Hi,
maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after
paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US.
viktors
Daniel Brown wrote:
> I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
development company in downtown NY
>50K should be OK in downtown NY as long as the inflation has stopped
>for over 5 years. :-)
>
>On 4/29/05, Jerry Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
Just to work in manhattan, you don't need to live here.
I know, because none of my current team (including me) live here - we all
commute from N
50K a year in Southern California would get you nowhere...
-Original Message-
From: Ray Champagne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:54 AM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
LOLone could argue the converse of that, too
I budget 40% of all my income for taxes. Basically, 33% to the
government plus an additional 7% (I think that is the "employers" portion
of Social Security).
Michael, I'm very curious as to what type of deductions you are taking as
a W2 employee that eliminates your tax burden, vs what yo
Good point with the Medical Insurance thing. I have no kids, but my
next job will defintely have Insurance as a benfit, or I am not even
looking at it. Paying out-of-pocket sucks for us. (My wife's in the
same boat - we work for small employers who can't afford to stay afloat
and pay insuran
Thanks Michael and Daniel!
Daniel Kang wrote:
> Also, this (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96196,00.html)
> will give you an idea.
>
> Daniel
>
> On 4/29/05, Michael Dinowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so
son
>Web Developer
>Dolan Media Company
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
>To: CF-Jobs-Talk
>Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
>
>I manage a small (getting smaller!) team o
Also, this (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96196,00.html)
will give you an idea.
Daniel
On 4/29/05, Michael Dinowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so.
> That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions c
Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so.
That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions can reduce the
burden to 5% or less. That's on a 1099, which is a contractors agreement. A
W2 (employee) allows you to reduce your tax burden past 0% and actually
Hi,
maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after
paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US.
viktors
Daniel Brown wrote:
> I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
> development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
Not really. I had a 'contract' with a company which turned out to be for 54k
a year on a 1099 in NY. It was not enough to keep me afloat especially after
they didn't pick up my medical as they had agreed to (among other things).
For someone with a family, a job has to have medical or else it's a
It's a NY thing. To get a CF job in NY most of the time you have to go
through a recruiter and that makes it look like there are few CF jobs in the
city. That causes most people in NY (who would learn it otherwise) not to
learn CF. This causes people like you to suffer. It's a vicious cycle.
If
If you offered my 50k to telecommute I would give my notice today. (1
office visit a week would be fine by me)
KP
-Original Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
I
her in
> NYC.
>
> Jerry Johnson
> Web Developer
> Dolan Media Company
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
> To: CF-Jobs-Talk
> Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
, 2005 1:50 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now
have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for
months
LOLone could argue the converse of that, too. Where are all the
jobs for the mid-level developers? Seriously, this is the first one I
have seen in a while. Being a mid-level developer myself, I keep an eye
out for them, somewhat. I am happy where I am at, but it never hurts to
look over
al Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web
development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce,
I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development
company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions
for mid-level developers that have been open for months.
Where have all the CF developers gone? The only people I have applying for
this
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