RE: The job market
I agree. Any test has to be absolutely relevant to the development. Also, with a bit of care, you could sit them down in the actual development environment, including Homesite, Dreamweaver or ColdFusion Studio and get them to do some stuff - no multiple choice ever! It's much like open book exams in school which look for real understanding of the material as opposed to rote memory. With regard to the white board stuff, I can deal with that, but a portion of folks freeze in an oral exam which are not all that commonly encountered in our educational systems anyway. Ph.D. candidates have to deal with an oral exam and give talks etc. but most folks sit at a desk and write out answers to questions. People code sitting at a machine with no-one looking over their shoulder, so an effective test would replicate that real work situation. It's a bit gentler than the oral approach and allows folks a bit of time to think and get the logic right etc. Anyway, the whole issue of interviewing could be discussed for a long time! -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 10:04 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: The job market While it wouldn't apply to what most of us do... One of my clients has a list of questions that they use when interviewing new help desk staff members. One of them is describe how to tie your shoe.They have to do this w/o using their hands, since hand movements don't translate well over the phone.I think that is a great way to weed out the people who may not be good for answering the help desk. I was on one interview where myself and the interviewer sat down at the computer.He gave me a list of tasks to do and watched me do them.As long as the written test you mention is 'relevant' to your development (as opposed to a multiple choice type of thing) I think that is a great way to test applicants.I also don't see how a written or 'practical' test is much different than the white board test discussed earlier in this thread.I just wouldn't expect syntax to hold a high importance, although I'd probably notice if it was really off. At 09:32 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: It is hard to believe that the following is true: You know, there is a LOT to memorize at our place.We have a big network and everything is very poorly documented.Knowledge transfer is almost all verbal.We have to memorize which database and which db server our systems use for one thing.We have to memorize a lot of IP addresses.We have to memorize commonly used custom tags so we don't reinvent the wheel.We have to memorize usernames and passwords.Someone who has such a difficult time memorizing the core tags of their language to me is a big fat RED FLAG. This should be at hand on the local intranet, or in a notebook. No-one should be memorizing this stuff. In my experience, the best way to tell whether someone can write code that is reasonable, including getting the logic right which is where a lot of folks fall down, is to give them a straight forward written test as part of the interview. It is remarkably useful in determining whether people can actually write code and you can be forgiving on getting all of the attributes right etc. You can also give them simple logic problems. Such a written test would follow an interview in which you cover general conceptual stuff etc. -- [http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=t:11Todays Threads] [http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:1890This Message] [http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11Subscription] [http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=7.4.11Fast Unsubscribe] [http://www.houseoffusion.com/signin/User Settings] [https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?amount=item_name=House+of+Fusionb usiness=donations%40houseoffusion.comundefined_quantity=cmd=_xclickDonati ons and Support] -- http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=39 8dc863.jpg -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- AIM: Reboog711| Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com Recording Music: http://www.fcfstudios.com Original Energetic Acoustic Rock: http://www.farcryfly.com [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
OT: IDE was Re: The job market
You may never have to develop WITHOUT Cold Fusion Studio by your side.But I still expect you to be able to show me you can work without a net. Funny thing is, during the days of CF3 I wasn't very happy with the IDE's available at the time. I used to use a shareware (registered for $30) HTML editor that didn't even have syntax highlighting called Anansi because it was the only one I found that had what I felt to be easily manageable projects and decent ftp controls. Though for a short while I did a lot of ColdFusion work in notepad. s. isaac dealey954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477DE=1 http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569DE=1 http://www.fusiontap.com [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
RE: The job market
H, although I agree about making the effort, spare a thought for us with designer stubble, I have sensitive skin! :OD Ade -Original Message- From: Doug White [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 August 2004 05:18 To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: The job market Those that appeared at an interview unshaven, unkempt hair, and sloppily dressed, did not get very many points with us. [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
Re: knowing syntax during an interview was RE: The job market
or how about cfthistopicissspiralingoutofcontrol? :) At 02:33 PM 8/10/2004, you wrote: I suppose you've never heard of CFSLIDER then? - Original Message - From: Glenn Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:18:40 -0700 Subject: Re: knowing syntax during an interview was RE: The job market To: CF-Jobs-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 07:50 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: It all depends on the types of things you ask someone to write out manually.Being incapable of typing out CFQUERY or CFOUTPUT is simply inexcusable and there is no convincing me otherwise. Whereas it's okay for someone not to be intimately familiar with the attributes of a cfgrid or cftree tag if they've never worked in an environment where they're heavily used. There is a reason why CFGRID isn't supported in Blue Dragon.It's commonly considered to be one of if not THE least used CF Tag. -- [http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=t:11Todays Threads] [http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:1901This Message] [http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11Subscription] [http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=12823.11631.11Fast Unsubscribe] [http://www.houseoffusion.com/signin/User Settings] [https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?amount=item_name=House+of+Fusionbusiness=donations%40houseoffusion.comundefined_quantity=cmd=_xclickDonations and Support] -- http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=35 156858c.jpg = Ray Champagne - Senior Application Developer CrystalVision Web Site Design and Internet Services 603.433.9559 www.crystalvision.org = The information contained in this transmission (including any attached files) is CONFIDENTIAL and is intended only for the person(s) named above. If you received this transmission in error, please delete it from your system and notify us immediately. If you are not an intended recipient, please note that any use or dissemination of the information contained in this transmission (including any attached files) and the copying, printing, or retransmission of that information is strictly prohibited. You can notify us by return email or by phone at 603.433.9559. Thank you. [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
Re: knowing syntax during an interview was RE: The job market
At 07:50 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: It all depends on the types of things you ask someone to write out manually.Being incapable of typing out CFQUERY or CFOUTPUT is simply inexcusable and there is no convincing me otherwise. Whereas it's okay for someone not to be intimately familiar with the attributes of a cfgrid or cftree tag if they've never worked in an environment where they're heavily used. There is a reason why CFGRID isn't supported in Blue Dragon.It's commonly considered to be one of if not THE least used CF Tag. Which explains why the early CFML tests used by recruiters were chock full of questions about it. :P s. isaac dealey954.927.5117 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477DE=1 [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings] [Donations and Support]
