Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)
I like Cisco - feels good when I type commands into the CLI. I have faith in my fingers Having too strong an opinion is bad for your internal chill zone, do not be mean to cisco man, not on this list ! -Original Message- From: cisco-nsp On Behalf Of Tails Pipes Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 10:21 AM To: Sami Joseph Cc: cisco-nsp NSP Subject: Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks) This message originates from outside of your organisation. Copied from smart people : Welcome to the world of coopetition. Microsoft has SQL Server running on Linux. They also sell Windows Server licenses. Some customers want one or the other, so they give them what they want. Other customers want a solution, and they can get it. I think enough customers (not all of them, but an increasing number) have said that open is where it's at. Cisco has been preparing but holding to its proprietary line to capture as much revenue as possible before they are forced to change. At the same time, they have to turn around the ship and change their products. Its not easy changing a big, fat company after 20 years of doing the same thing over and over while making huge profits for little effort. Thats the problem they are engaging with. Nearly everyone is doing better, faster, easier, more reliable networking that Cisco. Most often, at a cheaper price too. Its taking time for customers to make the switch but its a slow and steady migration. Cisco knows this at least. And the moves to subscription licenses are an attempt to extract more money from fewer customers. I think they have chosen to move up market, charge more and walk away from the customers who are willing to go whitebox/disagg/unbundled/open/DIY. They can't win so they won't compete. Its a obvious strategy. That means bigger enterprise customers who don't care how much money they spend will pay extra. https://www.reddit.com/r/networking/comments/8r0afq/is_ their_any_truth_to_the_trend_of_putting/ On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Sami Joseph wrote: > Packets will be pushed in Linux when Broadcom releases SDKs, Mellanox > already did...i guess > > https://netdevconf.org/0x12/session.html?building-a- > better-nos-with-linux-and-switchdev > > Description > > Whitebox switches, disaggregation, and open networking are all the > rage today. While the choice in white box switches and "open" > networking operating systems (NOS) has proliferated in recent years, > switching ASICs are still predominantly programmed using SDKs and > those SDKs are primarily driven by userspace controllers. The > adherence to SDKs imposes a design constraint that has a huge impact > on the architecture of a NOS, its choices for user APIs (how the > switch is configured, debugged and > monitored) and the performance of the control plane. > > Over the past few years a lot of effort has been put into a new > approach for Linux - i.e., switchdev and related in-kernel APIs. The > result allows for a simpler, cleaner NOS that fully leverages the > Linux kernel with the ASIC managed like any other hardware in the > system -- by a driver running in the kernel. However, adoption of > switchdev by ASIC vendors has been lacking, with only one ASIC vendor > at this point writing a driver that works with switchdev. > > This talk discusses typical software architectures for network > operating systems and introduces a path for transitioning SDK based > solutions to the switchdev model. > > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:00 AM, Tails Pipes > wrote: > >> Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to >> move networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute >> to it, there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want >> to deny those ? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable >> being a cisco network guy, well you dont live alone in the world, >> others also need to be able to run networks without having to work on >> it for 10 years. >> >> What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that >> the point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the >> vendors mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated >> opinion who exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ? >> is it Linus trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of >> people like you that are so comfortable in their own skin that they >> dont allow innovation to take course. >> >> Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and >> many people can understand and work with but if you are so >> comfortable with IOS variants, that doesnt mean that every one >> iscan i operate networks without having years of experience and >> implicitly forced support by cisco, I am sick of having to learn all >> the cisco specific terms to all sorts of different boxes and >> technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS
Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)
Hi, On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 07:20:55AM -0700, Tails Pipes wrote: > Thats the problem they are engaging with. Nearly everyone is doing better, > faster, easier, more reliable networking that Cisco. Most often, at a > cheaper price too. Not exactly sure what you're talking about. Cisco builds many products, some of them are indeed not very reliable, and others are definitely more expensive :-) - but to claim "nearly everyone is doing better, faster, more reliable" is so totally off-base that you really need to do some solid reading before going on with that rant. The "networking space" is very vast - from boxes that have a few times 100 Mbit and full software routing to boxes that use broadcom chips for "fast and cheap" 40x 10Gbit ports but limited feature sets (<- this is dictated by the hardware, the OS used on top can not change it), to "flexible, fast, and insanely expensive" boxes with many times 100Gbit/s support for >2 Million routing table entries, etc. Depending on your needs, an APU2 with Linux might be the right answer, or a Cisco ASR9900 or Juniper MX2020, filling a whole rack and costing multiple million US$... (and no, you won't be able to do that with Linux or any other generic OS without heavy hardware support) gert -- "If was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted it myself till I met a computer with a sense of humor." Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress Gert Doering - Munich, Germany g...@greenie.muc.de signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)
To change the direction, Cisco had to make a big step in all areas, where all training stuff, certifications and CCxx badges will be part of the past They will make more money as fast as possible, since Arista and others are challenging Cisco devices with lowest prices... and better equipments (forget the support services, doesn’t work when you REALLY need, all vendor have the the type of support, maybe, using the same follow the sun call center) Until one day, Cisco will face a doomsday and will acquire some company that own the knowledge. Personally, I move forward to another vendors, leaving Cisco devices and certifications behind... Juniper, even they are trying expand their portfolio, the new Juno ELS cli still holding the promise to fly to the moon. And of course the chipset still behind the expectations Whiteboxes, perhaps they are the future, we just need to know how the OS we will use that’s will works And how support services will deal with it... My cents, Best Regards Alexandre Em 22 de jun de 2018, à(s) 11:31, James Bensley escreveu: > Hi Saku, > >> On 22 June 2018 at 10:13, Saku Ytti wrote: >> Cool stuff, thanks. Didn't look closely, why do they say research and >> class-room? > > This is mostly driven by academia, a bunch of universities > collaborating together. Minimal operator input which is a shame. > >>> [1] Right now FGPA NICs + low end CPU are still mega expensive versus >>> a standard Ethernet NIC + DPDK + high end CPU. However I do think it >>> is worth getting on the front foot with these technologies, Juniper >>> have started to support P4 which again, I convince anyone at $dayjob >>> to look into. >> >> XEON and BRCM aren't really significantly different in BOM, and BRCM >> has orders of magnitude more pps. I'm not saying there is no use-case >> for XEON, what I am saying, if you need significant PPS XEON is very >> expensive. > > Yes that was the point I was trying to make too. > >> Use-cases I see for XEON forwarding-plane is when you need to do >> something that BRCM and friends simply cannot do, some b it more >> exotic use-cases, then it quickly becomes extremely viable solution. >> And of course if you already have compute which you cannot use for >> anything revenue generating or when your business unit can budget >> compute easily, but not networking. Or when CAPEX simply doesn't >> matter (mostly it doesn't, if you're looking whole company bottom >> line) and from OPEX POV it's just simpler for you to work with XEON >> boxes. > > So an "easy" use case might be a BGP free P node for example; a low > touch config box with minimal features and less to go wrong. VPP is > pushing the 1Tbps mark on x86 hardware now. But 10x100Gbps Ethernet > NICs and 64 cores ain't cheaper than a whitebox device right now. > > Cheers, > James > ___ > cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp > archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/ ___ cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)
Hi Saku, On 22 June 2018 at 10:13, Saku Ytti wrote: > Cool stuff, thanks. Didn't look closely, why do they say research and > class-room? This is mostly driven by academia, a bunch of universities collaborating together. Minimal operator input which is a shame. >> [1] Right now FGPA NICs + low end CPU are still mega expensive versus >> a standard Ethernet NIC + DPDK + high end CPU. However I do think it >> is worth getting on the front foot with these technologies, Juniper >> have started to support P4 which again, I convince anyone at $dayjob >> to look into. > > XEON and BRCM aren't really significantly different in BOM, and BRCM > has orders of magnitude more pps. I'm not saying there is no use-case > for XEON, what I am saying, if you need significant PPS XEON is very > expensive. Yes that was the point I was trying to make too. > Use-cases I see for XEON forwarding-plane is when you need to do > something that BRCM and friends simply cannot do, some b it more > exotic use-cases, then it quickly becomes extremely viable solution. > And of course if you already have compute which you cannot use for > anything revenue generating or when your business unit can budget > compute easily, but not networking. Or when CAPEX simply doesn't > matter (mostly it doesn't, if you're looking whole company bottom > line) and from OPEX POV it's just simpler for you to work with XEON > boxes. So an "easy" use case might be a BGP free P node for example; a low touch config box with minimal features and less to go wrong. VPP is pushing the 1Tbps mark on x86 hardware now. But 10x100Gbps Ethernet NICs and 64 cores ain't cheaper than a whitebox device right now. Cheers, James ___ cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)
Copied from smart people : Welcome to the world of coopetition. Microsoft has SQL Server running on Linux. They also sell Windows Server licenses. Some customers want one or the other, so they give them what they want. Other customers want a solution, and they can get it. I think enough customers (not all of them, but an increasing number) have said that open is where it's at. Cisco has been preparing but holding to its proprietary line to capture as much revenue as possible before they are forced to change. At the same time, they have to turn around the ship and change their products. Its not easy changing a big, fat company after 20 years of doing the same thing over and over while making huge profits for little effort. Thats the problem they are engaging with. Nearly everyone is doing better, faster, easier, more reliable networking that Cisco. Most often, at a cheaper price too. Its taking time for customers to make the switch but its a slow and steady migration. Cisco knows this at least. And the moves to subscription licenses are an attempt to extract more money from fewer customers. I think they have chosen to move up market, charge more and walk away from the customers who are willing to go whitebox/disagg/unbundled/open/DIY. They can't win so they won't compete. Its a obvious strategy. That means bigger enterprise customers who don't care how much money they spend will pay extra. https://www.reddit.com/r/networking/comments/8r0afq/is_ their_any_truth_to_the_trend_of_putting/ On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Sami Joseph wrote: > Packets will be pushed in Linux when Broadcom releases SDKs, Mellanox > already did...i guess > > https://netdevconf.org/0x12/session.html?building-a- > better-nos-with-linux-and-switchdev > > Description > > Whitebox switches, disaggregation, and open networking > are all the rage today. While the choice in white box > switches and "open" networking operating systems (NOS) > has proliferated in recent years, switching ASICs are > still predominantly programmed using SDKs and those SDKs > are primarily driven by userspace controllers. The > adherence to SDKs imposes a design constraint that has a > huge impact on the architecture of a NOS, its choices for > user APIs (how the switch is configured, debugged and > monitored) and the performance of the control plane. > > Over the past few years a lot of effort has been put into > a new approach for Linux - i.e., switchdev and related > in-kernel APIs. The result allows for a simpler, cleaner > NOS that fully leverages the Linux kernel with the ASIC > managed like any other hardware in the system -- by a > driver running in the kernel. However, adoption of > switchdev by ASIC vendors has been lacking, with only > one ASIC vendor at this point writing a driver that > works with switchdev. > > This talk discusses typical software architectures for > network operating systems and introduces a path for > transitioning SDK based solutions to the switchdev > model. > > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:00 AM, Tails Pipes > wrote: > >> Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to move >> networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute to it, >> there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want to deny >> those >> ? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable being a cisco >> network guy, well you dont live alone in the world, others also need to be >> able to run networks without having to work on it for 10 years. >> >> What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that the >> point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the vendors >> mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated opinion who >> exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ? is it Linus >> trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of people like you >> that are so comfortable in their own skin that they dont allow innovation >> to take course. >> >> Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and many >> people can understand and work with but if you are so comfortable with IOS >> variants, that doesnt mean that every one iscan i operate networks >> without having years of experience and implicitly forced support by cisco, >> I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts of >> different boxes and technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS >> engagements, but thats not what this post is about. its about how a >> company >> is making use of free software and refusing to allow it to flourish, the >> microsoft of networking is cisco. >> >> https://blogs.cisco.com/news/myth-busting-white-box-switches >> -are-no-bargain >> >> This is about a company that smiles in my face, telling me that Linux is >> bad for me and they are using it in all their products, in that video, the >> speaker says we can leverage all the linux work for free. >> >> Is Cisco working on XDP ?
Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)
The NPU/ASIC vendors are not allowing packets to be pushed in Linux, someone needs to work with them to do that. What exactly is the problem here ? I guess we can agree that Cisco is a company that is out there to make money, others are too but they have a less capitalistic approach to it, more friendly to the community. You are right about one question, who will pay for packets to flow through the kernel ? On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:00 AM, Tails Pipes wrote: > Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to move > networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute to it, > there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want to deny those > ? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable being a cisco > network guy, well you dont live alone in the world, others also need to be > able to run networks without having to work on it for 10 years. > > What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that the > point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the vendors > mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated opinion who > exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ? is it Linus > trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of people like you > that are so comfortable in their own skin that they dont allow innovation > to take course. > > Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and many > people can understand and work with but if you are so comfortable with IOS > variants, that doesnt mean that every one iscan i operate networks > without having years of experience and implicitly forced support by cisco, > I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts of > different boxes and technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS > engagements, but thats not what this post is about. its about how a company > is making use of free software and refusing to allow it to flourish, the > microsoft of networking is cisco. > > https://blogs.cisco.com/news/myth-busting-white-box- > switches-are-no-bargain > > This is about a company that smiles in my face, telling me that Linux is > bad for me and they are using it in all their products, in that video, the > speaker says we can leverage all the linux work for free. > > Is Cisco working on XDP ? https://netdevconf.org/0x12/schedule.html I dont > see Cisco's name here but others are. > > can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in linux ? > is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ? > > can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who is > writing that code ? > > this is supposedly a community effort, something that older generations > dont understand. > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Saku Ytti wrote: > > > Hey Tails Pipes, > > > > What do you mean by 'not making sense with the defense against open > > source'? > > > > All their operating systems run linux, IOS-XE, IOS-XR, NXOS and more. > > > > And no one is (well at least shouldn't be) surprised that the obvious > > motivation that drives linux use, is that you get booting OS, for > > free, which actually works. Almost no vendor no longer maintains their > > own booting OS. Huawei, Juniper, Cisco, Arista all boot Linux. Nokia > > is one of the few who still write their own booting OS (forked off > > vxworks years ago), which also means they can't bring easily and > > cheaply new control-plane HW, and possible reason why they run Cavium > > control-plane is because they've not written code to boot XEON. > > > > I see no reason why the video would be taken down, I didn't watch it > > in its entirety as I'm not curious about Linux primer at this time, > > but the sections you highlighted are in no way controversial. > > > > I'm unsure what argument you're trying to make about Cisco, open > > source or Cumulus. Cumulus is, in my mind, no special vendor. Just > > another vendor buying COTS chips and writing OS on them, like many > > others. I'm not saying it's bad thing, I'm just saying they're in no > > way disruptive in my mind. They're not doing packet pushing in Linux, > > no one is. It's just booting OS, and OS to configure the > > forwarding-plane. > > Now some are looking anxiously at XEON for packet pushing, but even in > > that case, you're not actually using Linux to push packets, granted > > you're using open source, DPDK or equivalent, but even in that case, > > the cost for PPS from INTC XEON is far worse than it is from BRCM. And > > of course neither ITNC nor BRCM are in any meaningful way more 'open'. > > > > What would be disruptive is someone openly publishing their ASIC/NPU > > specs and P4 compiler, so that we use vanillla linux kernel to drive > > the forwarding-plane. > > > > On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 03:50, Tails Pipes wrote: > > > > > > I went to CiscoLive last week, and i understood that they are > definitely > > > not making sense with the defense against open source and the
Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)
On 22 June 2018 at 15:00, Tails Pipes wrote: > Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to move > networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute to it, > there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want to deny those > ? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable being a cisco > network guy, well you dont live alone in the world, others also need to be > able to run networks without having to work on it for 10 years. > > What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that the > point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the vendors > mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated opinion who > exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ? is it Linus > trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of people like you > that are so comfortable in their own skin that they dont allow innovation > to take course. > > Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and many > people can understand and work with but if you are so comfortable with IOS > variants, that doesnt mean that every one iscan i operate networks > without having years of experience and implicitly forced support by cisco, > I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts of > different boxes and technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS > engagements, but thats not what this post is about. its about how a company > is making use of free software and refusing to allow it to flourish, the > microsoft of networking is cisco. > > https://blogs.cisco.com/news/myth-busting-white-box-switches-are-no-bargain > > This is about a company that smiles in my face, telling me that Linux is > bad for me and they are using it in all their products, in that video, the > speaker says we can leverage all the linux work for free. > > Is Cisco working on XDP ? https://netdevconf.org/0x12/schedule.html I dont > see Cisco's name here but others are. > > can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in linux ? > is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ? > > can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who is > writing that code ? > > this is supposedly a community effort, something that older generations > dont understand. What did you have for breakfast, troll meat? James. ___ cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)
Packets will be pushed in Linux when Broadcom releases SDKs, Mellanox already did...i guess https://netdevconf.org/0x12/session.html?building-a-better-nos-with-linux-and-switchdev Description Whitebox switches, disaggregation, and open networking are all the rage today. While the choice in white box switches and "open" networking operating systems (NOS) has proliferated in recent years, switching ASICs are still predominantly programmed using SDKs and those SDKs are primarily driven by userspace controllers. The adherence to SDKs imposes a design constraint that has a huge impact on the architecture of a NOS, its choices for user APIs (how the switch is configured, debugged and monitored) and the performance of the control plane. Over the past few years a lot of effort has been put into a new approach for Linux - i.e., switchdev and related in-kernel APIs. The result allows for a simpler, cleaner NOS that fully leverages the Linux kernel with the ASIC managed like any other hardware in the system -- by a driver running in the kernel. However, adoption of switchdev by ASIC vendors has been lacking, with only one ASIC vendor at this point writing a driver that works with switchdev. This talk discusses typical software architectures for network operating systems and introduces a path for transitioning SDK based solutions to the switchdev model. On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:00 AM, Tails Pipes wrote: > Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to move > networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute to it, > there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want to deny those > ? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable being a cisco > network guy, well you dont live alone in the world, others also need to be > able to run networks without having to work on it for 10 years. > > What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that the > point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the vendors > mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated opinion who > exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ? is it Linus > trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of people like you > that are so comfortable in their own skin that they dont allow innovation > to take course. > > Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and many > people can understand and work with but if you are so comfortable with IOS > variants, that doesnt mean that every one iscan i operate networks > without having years of experience and implicitly forced support by cisco, > I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts of > different boxes and technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS > engagements, but thats not what this post is about. its about how a company > is making use of free software and refusing to allow it to flourish, the > microsoft of networking is cisco. > > https://blogs.cisco.com/news/myth-busting-white-box- > switches-are-no-bargain > > This is about a company that smiles in my face, telling me that Linux is > bad for me and they are using it in all their products, in that video, the > speaker says we can leverage all the linux work for free. > > Is Cisco working on XDP ? https://netdevconf.org/0x12/schedule.html I dont > see Cisco's name here but others are. > > can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in linux ? > is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ? > > can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who is > writing that code ? > > this is supposedly a community effort, something that older generations > dont understand. > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Saku Ytti wrote: > > > Hey Tails Pipes, > > > > What do you mean by 'not making sense with the defense against open > > source'? > > > > All their operating systems run linux, IOS-XE, IOS-XR, NXOS and more. > > > > And no one is (well at least shouldn't be) surprised that the obvious > > motivation that drives linux use, is that you get booting OS, for > > free, which actually works. Almost no vendor no longer maintains their > > own booting OS. Huawei, Juniper, Cisco, Arista all boot Linux. Nokia > > is one of the few who still write their own booting OS (forked off > > vxworks years ago), which also means they can't bring easily and > > cheaply new control-plane HW, and possible reason why they run Cavium > > control-plane is because they've not written code to boot XEON. > > > > I see no reason why the video would be taken down, I didn't watch it > > in its entirety as I'm not curious about Linux primer at this time, > > but the sections you highlighted are in no way controversial. > > > > I'm unsure what argument you're trying to make about Cisco, open > > source or Cumulus. Cumulus is, in my mind, no special vendor. Just > > another vendor buying COTS chips and writing OS on them, like many > > others. I'm not saying it's bad
Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)
Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to move networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute to it, there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want to deny those ? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable being a cisco network guy, well you dont live alone in the world, others also need to be able to run networks without having to work on it for 10 years. What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that the point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the vendors mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated opinion who exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ? is it Linus trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of people like you that are so comfortable in their own skin that they dont allow innovation to take course. Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and many people can understand and work with but if you are so comfortable with IOS variants, that doesnt mean that every one iscan i operate networks without having years of experience and implicitly forced support by cisco, I am sick of having to learn all the cisco specific terms to all sorts of different boxes and technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS engagements, but thats not what this post is about. its about how a company is making use of free software and refusing to allow it to flourish, the microsoft of networking is cisco. https://blogs.cisco.com/news/myth-busting-white-box-switches-are-no-bargain This is about a company that smiles in my face, telling me that Linux is bad for me and they are using it in all their products, in that video, the speaker says we can leverage all the linux work for free. Is Cisco working on XDP ? https://netdevconf.org/0x12/schedule.html I dont see Cisco's name here but others are. can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in linux ? is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ? can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who is writing that code ? this is supposedly a community effort, something that older generations dont understand. On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Saku Ytti wrote: > Hey Tails Pipes, > > What do you mean by 'not making sense with the defense against open > source'? > > All their operating systems run linux, IOS-XE, IOS-XR, NXOS and more. > > And no one is (well at least shouldn't be) surprised that the obvious > motivation that drives linux use, is that you get booting OS, for > free, which actually works. Almost no vendor no longer maintains their > own booting OS. Huawei, Juniper, Cisco, Arista all boot Linux. Nokia > is one of the few who still write their own booting OS (forked off > vxworks years ago), which also means they can't bring easily and > cheaply new control-plane HW, and possible reason why they run Cavium > control-plane is because they've not written code to boot XEON. > > I see no reason why the video would be taken down, I didn't watch it > in its entirety as I'm not curious about Linux primer at this time, > but the sections you highlighted are in no way controversial. > > I'm unsure what argument you're trying to make about Cisco, open > source or Cumulus. Cumulus is, in my mind, no special vendor. Just > another vendor buying COTS chips and writing OS on them, like many > others. I'm not saying it's bad thing, I'm just saying they're in no > way disruptive in my mind. They're not doing packet pushing in Linux, > no one is. It's just booting OS, and OS to configure the > forwarding-plane. > Now some are looking anxiously at XEON for packet pushing, but even in > that case, you're not actually using Linux to push packets, granted > you're using open source, DPDK or equivalent, but even in that case, > the cost for PPS from INTC XEON is far worse than it is from BRCM. And > of course neither ITNC nor BRCM are in any meaningful way more 'open'. > > What would be disruptive is someone openly publishing their ASIC/NPU > specs and P4 compiler, so that we use vanillla linux kernel to drive > the forwarding-plane. > > On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 03:50, Tails Pipes wrote: > > > > I went to CiscoLive last week, and i understood that they are definitely > > not making sense with the defense against open source and the direction > of > > LBN (Linux Based Networking) However, they still like to use Linux and > make > > money out of it. (minute 09:13), complete and utter bullish hypocrisy. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyC_T-u8Wsw > > > > Not sure if this is a leaked video or not, but i am kind of surprised > that > > this company is openly admitting these kind of ideas. > > > > What really ticked me to share this is when the executive in the video > > (Chuck Duffy) is openly admitting the competitive pressure, and how IOS > is > > inferior to Linux (minute 01:07), the way he spoke about IOS was > inferring > > that its classic or legacy and
[c-nsp] IOS XRv 9000 Default Route Scale
I'm having trouble finding this specification. What is the default route scale on the IOS XRv 9000 (S-XRV9000-RTU). I presume without S-XRV9000-VRR-1M the router would just act as a simple client or non-client on the network? Curtis ___ cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)
Hey James, > https://netfpga.org/site/#/ > + > https://github.com/p4fpga/p4fpga > > Open source hardware and a P4 target to drive it! Cool stuff, thanks. Didn't look closely, why do they say research and class-room? > [1] Right now FGPA NICs + low end CPU are still mega expensive versus > a standard Ethernet NIC + DPDK + high end CPU. However I do think it > is worth getting on the front foot with these technologies, Juniper > have started to support P4 which again, I convince anyone at $dayjob > to look into. XEON and BRCM aren't really significantly different in BOM, and BRCM has orders of magnitude more pps. I'm not saying there is no use-case for XEON, what I am saying, if you need significant PPS XEON is very expensive. Use-cases I see for XEON forwarding-plane is when you need to do something that BRCM and friends simply cannot do, some b it more exotic use-cases, then it quickly becomes extremely viable solution. And of course if you already have compute which you cannot use for anything revenue generating or when your business unit can budget compute easily, but not networking. Or when CAPEX simply doesn't matter (mostly it doesn't, if you're looking whole company bottom line) and from OPEX POV it's just simpler for you to work with XEON boxes. -- ++ytti ___ cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)
On 22 June 2018 at 09:27, Saku Ytti wrote: > What would be disruptive is someone openly publishing their ASIC/NPU > specs and P4 compiler, so that we use vanillla linux kernel to drive > the forwarding-plane. E.g. https://netfpga.org/site/#/ + https://github.com/p4fpga/p4fpga Open source hardware and a P4 target to drive it! I've been watching these two projects for a couple of years now, very exciting stuff in my opinion however, I can't convince anyone at $dayjob to show any interest in them :( [1] Right now FGPA NICs + low end CPU are still mega expensive versus a standard Ethernet NIC + DPDK + high end CPU. However I do think it is worth getting on the front foot with these technologies, Juniper have started to support P4 which again, I convince anyone at $dayjob to look into. Cheers, James. [1] Over the years you realise that tech skills aren't super useful if you can't convince your business why a certain technology might be better for them relative to their business needs. ___ cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)
Hey Tails Pipes, What do you mean by 'not making sense with the defense against open source'? All their operating systems run linux, IOS-XE, IOS-XR, NXOS and more. And no one is (well at least shouldn't be) surprised that the obvious motivation that drives linux use, is that you get booting OS, for free, which actually works. Almost no vendor no longer maintains their own booting OS. Huawei, Juniper, Cisco, Arista all boot Linux. Nokia is one of the few who still write their own booting OS (forked off vxworks years ago), which also means they can't bring easily and cheaply new control-plane HW, and possible reason why they run Cavium control-plane is because they've not written code to boot XEON. I see no reason why the video would be taken down, I didn't watch it in its entirety as I'm not curious about Linux primer at this time, but the sections you highlighted are in no way controversial. I'm unsure what argument you're trying to make about Cisco, open source or Cumulus. Cumulus is, in my mind, no special vendor. Just another vendor buying COTS chips and writing OS on them, like many others. I'm not saying it's bad thing, I'm just saying they're in no way disruptive in my mind. They're not doing packet pushing in Linux, no one is. It's just booting OS, and OS to configure the forwarding-plane. Now some are looking anxiously at XEON for packet pushing, but even in that case, you're not actually using Linux to push packets, granted you're using open source, DPDK or equivalent, but even in that case, the cost for PPS from INTC XEON is far worse than it is from BRCM. And of course neither ITNC nor BRCM are in any meaningful way more 'open'. What would be disruptive is someone openly publishing their ASIC/NPU specs and P4 compiler, so that we use vanillla linux kernel to drive the forwarding-plane. On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 03:50, Tails Pipes wrote: > > I went to CiscoLive last week, and i understood that they are definitely > not making sense with the defense against open source and the direction of > LBN (Linux Based Networking) However, they still like to use Linux and make > money out of it. (minute 09:13), complete and utter bullish hypocrisy. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyC_T-u8Wsw > > Not sure if this is a leaked video or not, but i am kind of surprised that > this company is openly admitting these kind of ideas. > > What really ticked me to share this is when the executive in the video > (Chuck Duffy) is openly admitting the competitive pressure, and how IOS is > inferior to Linux (minute 01:07), the way he spoke about IOS was inferring > that its classic or legacy and thats why its picked up in all their > products. > > What i wasnt able to comprehend at all is why he mentioned Big switch and > cumulus on minute 02:50, is this like a slip of truth or a real defining > moment of a vendor’s life saying that open stuff is a disruptive > architecture ? > > Is Cisco moving to. subscription model because of Linux ? Is it that > difficult to change Cisco to go Linux all the way ? > > ps. : it will probably be taken down soon. > ___ > cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp > archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/ -- ++ytti ___ cisco-nsp mailing list cisco-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
