Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
The talk was really enligthing... but I would say it is still research. While I can trust you can make, say an intuitive and reactive UI for flash like animations, I think there are still problems to take care of for the program example. Here this is just a simple algorithm without long calls inside, without access to external systems or mutable state. All kind of things that would simply fail to work properly in pratice. I can see this as an evolution of unit testing and debugging. You still need to mock dependancies and take care to build input data to test your program. But in exchange you can check interractively execution outcome and intermediate steps and tweak it until it provide the required result. You could then ask to generate the proper unit test because well all information is already available. But making this kind of UI fluid and easy including a way to properly specify your mocks (and what is not mocked) is going to be complex... But I agree, functional languages that tend to favor pure functions really help there. On 27 fév, 19:44, Colin Yates colin.ya...@gmail.com wrote: Amazing. The lesson for me (which has echoes of the 'hammock driven design' message) is that sometimes the best ideas come not from evolutions of existing answers but starting completely from scratch. As techies, we sometimes (I think) restrict ourselves to improving our existing solutions which in effect restrict our solution space to our own (sometimes inferior) answers. For example, I doubt any of his answers came as an improvement to existing IDEs - they are new creations. Hmm - not sure I made that clear - I learnt a lesson anyway. Excellent points and I certainly found the video inspiring. Good link! Col On Friday, 24 February 2012 18:29:06 UTC, Damien wrote: Hi Everyone, You may have seen this already, if not I believe it's worth investing 1h of your life: http://vimeo.com/36579366 That's already a good candidate for the technical talk of the year, if not the decade IMO. Ok, I'm getting a bit too enthusiastic here but this is so inspiring. After watching it, you can't help thinking that we have a whole new world to invent. As a side note, you may start thinking that a REPL is not good enough. - Personal message to Laurent Petit: please watch and start thinking about CCW 1.0 ;o) - It also feels like ClojureScript is on the right path. But, most importantly, beyond any technical consideration, the last part is a great life lesson. -- Damien Lepage http://damienlepage.com @damienlepage https://twitter.com/#%21/damienlepage linkedin.com/in/damienlepage http://www.linkedin.com/in/damienlepage -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
If you'd like to see Bret talk, he will be speaking at Strange Loop this year. St. Louis, Sept 23-25 http://thestrangeloop.com Alex On Feb 24, 12:29 pm, Damien Lepage damienlep...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Everyone, You may have seen this already, if not I believe it's worth investing 1h of your life:http://vimeo.com/36579366 That's already a good candidate for the technical talk of the year, if not the decade IMO. Ok, I'm getting a bit too enthusiastic here but this is so inspiring. After watching it, you can't help thinking that we have a whole new world to invent. As a side note, you may start thinking that a REPL is not good enough. - Personal message to Laurent Petit: please watch and start thinking about CCW 1.0 ;o) - It also feels like ClojureScript is on the right path. But, most importantly, beyond any technical consideration, the last part is a great life lesson. -- Damien Lepagehttp://damienlepage.com @damienlepage https://twitter.com/#!/damienlepage linkedin.com/in/damienlepage http://www.linkedin.com/in/damienlepage -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Look Chris Granger (@ibdknox) has gone and put those ideas into action - http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/02/26/connecting-to-your-creation/ Lovely stuff. David On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 9:06 AM, Alex Miller a...@puredanger.com wrote: If you'd like to see Bret talk, he will be speaking at Strange Loop this year. St. Louis, Sept 23-25 http://thestrangeloop.com Alex On Feb 24, 12:29 pm, Damien Lepage damienlep...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Everyone, You may have seen this already, if not I believe it's worth investing 1h of your life:http://vimeo.com/36579366 That's already a good candidate for the technical talk of the year, if not the decade IMO. Ok, I'm getting a bit too enthusiastic here but this is so inspiring. After watching it, you can't help thinking that we have a whole new world to invent. As a side note, you may start thinking that a REPL is not good enough. - Personal message to Laurent Petit: please watch and start thinking about CCW 1.0 ;o) - It also feels like ClojureScript is on the right path. But, most importantly, beyond any technical consideration, the last part is a great life lesson. -- Damien Lepagehttp://damienlepage.com @damienlepage https://twitter.com/#!/damienlepage linkedin.com/in/damienlepage http://www.linkedin.com/in/damienlepage -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Amazing. The lesson for me (which has echoes of the 'hammock driven design' message) is that sometimes the best ideas come not from evolutions of existing answers but starting completely from scratch. As techies, we sometimes (I think) restrict ourselves to improving our existing solutions which in effect restrict our solution space to our own (sometimes inferior) answers. For example, I doubt any of his answers came as an improvement to existing IDEs - they are new creations. Hmm - not sure I made that clear - I learnt a lesson anyway. Excellent points and I certainly found the video inspiring. Good link! Col On Friday, 24 February 2012 18:29:06 UTC, Damien wrote: Hi Everyone, You may have seen this already, if not I believe it's worth investing 1h of your life: http://vimeo.com/36579366 That's already a good candidate for the technical talk of the year, if not the decade IMO. Ok, I'm getting a bit too enthusiastic here but this is so inspiring. After watching it, you can't help thinking that we have a whole new world to invent. As a side note, you may start thinking that a REPL is not good enough. - Personal message to Laurent Petit: please watch and start thinking about CCW 1.0 ;o) - It also feels like ClojureScript is on the right path. But, most importantly, beyond any technical consideration, the last part is a great life lesson. -- Damien Lepage http://damienlepage.com @damienlepage https://twitter.com/#%21/damienlepage linkedin.com/in/damienlepage http://www.linkedin.com/in/damienlepage -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Actually, I guess this is the driving force behind my activism about literate programming. What we do now is a social wrong in the sense that we are creating software that could be so much better, in an engineering sense, than we do now. We create software but we lose the most valuable part of the project by only crafting software that communicates with the machine. The real value is the communicating the ideas to other people. Once we change the world to expect programs to be literate everyone will have their expections raised to the point where they consider non-literate programs to be unprofessional. Tim Daly d...@literatesoftware.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Didn't have the time to watch thevideo yesterday, and just watched it. Visualizing code in such a way is amazing, could be extremely useful when teaching how to program. I think the browser-connected REPL in ClojureScript is already a good step into the right direction, since it makes testing changes to the code for visual effects A LOT easier. When I did a bit of Flex development back in 2008 the application took 6 minutes to compile, which meant a huge waste of time trying to improve UI effects. I've heard of people who had compile times of up to 12-15 minutes for their Flex apps. Imagine how much time you waste with such a workflow (although that's more the case for very large enterpise apps, and not a casual game). Thanks again for the link! - Raju -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Raju Bitter rajubit...@googlemail.com writes: Didn't have the time to watch thevideo yesterday, and just watched it. Visualizing code in such a way is amazing, could be extremely useful when teaching how to program. Yes, what a great object lesson in the usefulness of being able to disable locals clearing. Gave me a lot to think about regarding what kind of feedback tools should provide. It's funny to hear a half-hour talk on Cybernetics without mentioning the term at all, but I'm glad the ideas are getting exposure. -Phil -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Phil Hagelberg p...@hagelb.org writes: Yes, what a great object lesson in the usefulness of being able to disable locals clearing. Gave me a lot to think about regarding what kind of feedback tools should provide. I don't understand what disable locals clearing means. -- Craig Brozefsky cr...@red-bean.com Premature reification is the root of all evil -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
This is pretty cool, and definitely something that is needed. In terms of images etc, I see these as resources that are referenced by the expressions going over the wire, rather than embedded in the expressions directly. You can just send the url to the image (or data later turned into a url), and then the resource is loaded in the browser via http. Continuing my html5 repl rationale at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-tools/browse_thread/thread/f0ef25f5489b4554?hl=en On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Chas Emerick c...@cemerick.com wrote: That's a nice summary, and is part of what I'm hoping to enable with nREPL.[1] I started with it trying to provide a tool-agnostic REPL backend, but I quickly wanted to get past the rigid text orientation of that medium. Yes, Clojure forms are always read as text, and that's the dominant medium of interaction used by programmers everywhere, but it doesn't (and maybe shouldn't) be that way. Certainly, the leverage provided by well-executed, relevant, perhaps-interactive visualizations is becoming widely appreciated; I don't see why we should allow our programming practice to be segregated in a text ghetto when different mediums are better — or necessary. Anyway, nREPL has developed to the point where middlewares can be written to easily offer richer representations of data within the REPL. An example of my earliest (primitive!) experiments around this are available here[2]. Images and other data flowing through a REPL isn't a _huge_ deal, except that: * nREPL is tool-agnostic; reply (and therefore Leiningen v2) or vimclojure or jark or textmate or sublime text can elect to receive those other representations, and present them to the user however is appropriate * nREPL is transport-agnostic; the default socket transport (bencode[3] with some particular semantics) is very lightweight, and can receive or transmit binary data efficiently (a distinct advantage compared to shipping textual encodings of such data in e.g. s-expressions). A proof of concept of a tty transport is included in nREPL (so you could connect to an nREPL backend using something as meager as telnet), and I have a sketch of an nREPL ring handler that I'll get out on github soon. This should allow you to easily drop an nREPL endpoint into any ring app, connect to it with any HTTP or nREPL client, and do anything you'd like to do in a REPL without tunneling, mucking around with ssh tunnels, and taking advantage of all existing webapp security regime you have in place. And, if you have the right middlewares in place and a suitably-capable client, rich representations of REPL data and rich interactions with the same should be within arm's reach. I have less of a vision for the HTML5 side of things. I'm certain a killer in-browser nREPL client could be put together to take advantage of all of the above, whether it's connecting to an HTTP nREPL endpoint or a (web)socket transport using nREPL's wire protocol, but I'm personally more interested on thick clients (perhaps embedding webviews as necessary!) for various reasons. FYI, for anyone working on tooling to help support things like this, I'd invite you to join the clojure-tools group I created recently: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-tools/browse_thread/thread/48ff47ab5d7ca2c?hl=en Cheers, - Chas [1] http://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl [2] http://cemerick.com/2011/10/26/enabling-richer-interactions-in-the-clojure-repl/ [3] It turns out that bencode and the way nREPL uses it seems similar to but much simpler than Google's SPDY protocol. On Feb 24, 2012, at 5:33 PM, kovas boguta wrote: That's a great talk, and a great basic principle: that creators need an immediate connection to their creation. I realized this has also been my side project for the last few months, though mostly in hammock phase. I think the foundational technology we need, as a community, is an html5 repl. You type code into the browser, and can create output that takes advantage of the host's capabilities - graphics, video, UI etc. The problem is a bit more multifaceted then just html though, as it also involves UI state, persisting the sessions, how to share/reuse the creations, and the general problem of UI description in the context of clojurescript. But where this gets you is this: a clojure interaction environment based on web standards, rather than narrow dialects like elisp and swing. So the lines between programming clojure, extending the clojure programming environment, and deploying webapps goes away. It's possible to see a line between this category of tool, and the demos in the presentation. If the game is tightly coupling data, code, and complex visual representation, we have the building blocks to bust that game wide open. It makes no sense to build on a platform other than the web, and IMHO the big step there is to program clojure from
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Great video, it was interesting that the binary search example only really works with pure functions since you must specify all of the initial state for the debugger/visualiser. In non-pure functions (and oo) the user is unlikely to be able to specify valid values for all the mutable state even if the application could tell them which variables were being referenced. In clojure something like this might not be too difficult, perhaps we could: - define a temporary function with the same text - use CDT or another debugger to set a break-point in the temporary function - call the function and capture the current stack frame variables at each invocation display as in the video Support for higher order functions and list comprehension (map, reduce, for, etc.) may be difficult though. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Craig Brozefsky cr...@red-bean.com writes: Yes, what a great object lesson in the usefulness of being able to disable locals clearing. Gave me a lot to think about regarding what kind of feedback tools should provide. I don't understand what disable locals clearing means. In order to avoid memory leaks when dealing with lazy seqs, Clojure's compiler must emit instructions to clear references to locals so they can be GC'd. This is necessary in production but severely cripples debuggers since they only have access to locals that haven't been cleared. It would also probably be necessary for this kind of live tracing. There's a patch that fixes this problem waiting to be applied: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-860 -Phil -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Hi Everyone, You may have seen this already, if not I believe it's worth investing 1h of your life: http://vimeo.com/36579366 That's already a good candidate for the technical talk of the year, if not the decade IMO. Ok, I'm getting a bit too enthusiastic here but this is so inspiring. After watching it, you can't help thinking that we have a whole new world to invent. As a side note, you may start thinking that a REPL is not good enough. - Personal message to Laurent Petit: please watch and start thinking about CCW 1.0 ;o) - It also feels like ClojureScript is on the right path. But, most importantly, beyond any technical consideration, the last part is a great life lesson. -- Damien Lepage http://damienlepage.com @damienlepage https://twitter.com/#!/damienlepage linkedin.com/in/damienlepage http://www.linkedin.com/in/damienlepage -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Damien Lepage damienlep...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Everyone, You may have seen this already, if not I believe it's worth investing 1h of your life: http://vimeo.com/36579366 That's already a good candidate for the technical talk of the year, if not the decade IMO. What is it with people these days and using videos for stuff that could be far better posted as text? A talk can inherently be presented as text, perhaps HTML with a few inline images if there are slides. And text (or HTML) has some HUGE advantages: * Download size is kilobytes, not gigabytes * Can be viewed on dialup, mobile, etc. without stuttering, not working at all, costing an arm and a leg, or etc. * Google can find it by the full content of the talk, not just what few keywords someone slaps onto the video's youtube page plus the inanities added by the inevitable swarm of troll commenters. * You can search in it yourself with ctrl-F in your browser. * You can skim it. * If you're a fast reader, you can probably read it and comprehend it all in less than an hour. * You can navigate in it very easily, using normal scrolling, search, and other browser tools, and see where you're going while you scroll, rather than having to drag a tiny little thingy across a tiny little seek bar blind, drop it, and then wait 40 seconds while a little wheel spins for the Flash player to *maybe* jump to the spot in the video, whereupon you will repeat the process a few times with ever finer adjustments; but the player might hang or snap back to where it was or crash instead. * You can keep a copy for offline viewing without needing: a) hacking tools to bypass the attempts by the popular video sites to be streaming-only, b) one or another big bloated piece of media player software that will steal file associations at inconvenient and random times, and c) a shitload of disk space. * No extra plugins etc. needed to view it that guzzle CPU and memory, crash at inconvenient times, and the like. You can view it in Lynx (minus the slides, if any) if you want to. You can view it on a 286 with no graphics card (not no 3D card, no graphics, period, just 80x24 text mode). You can view it on your old Commodore 64 with 300 baud modem if you want to and it won't take sixty thousand years to download on that either. * You can copy and paste bits of it into a snippets file or whatever, if there's bits you want to refer back to later that gave you technical ideas. Or print it out and apply hiliter to key passages. Or etc. * If you're blind you can still get screen-reader software to read it for you. If you're deaf, on the other hand, a video is quite likely to be completely useless, since streaming framerates and lip-reading don't tend to mix and none of these things seem to be closed-captioned. * Text is easy and cheap to mirror widely around the net and relatively easy to translate to other languages. Video can be hosted free at only a handful of sites and is more work to translate. What does video get you that text or HTML+images couldn't get you? * You can hear what the guy's voice actually sounds like. * You get to see a talking head bobbing around and lips moving in a jerky, stuttery sort of way. * You get the pronunciation, but not the spelling, of the obscure technical/latin words that get used, instead of the other way 'round. * There can be full-motion video demonstrations of things. Not worth what you lose, IMO, even if you aren't deaf, and especially if you are. Full-motion video demonstrations can be separate short videos embedded in a text+images web page. Oh, and by the way, your post doesn't even bother to actually say what, exactly, the talk is about. It implies strongly that it has something to do with interactive development tools, and it's clear that something in it wowed you, but that's it, and the URL itself is completely opaque. Apparently the only way to find out in more detail what the talk's topic is is to click the link, at minimum, and maybe you even have to play the video part-way. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Are you Ken Wesson with a new account? On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Cedric Greevey cgree...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Damien Lepage damienlep...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Everyone, You may have seen this already, if not I believe it's worth investing 1h of your life: http://vimeo.com/36579366 That's already a good candidate for the technical talk of the year, if not the decade IMO. What is it with people these days and using videos for stuff that could be far better posted as text? A talk can inherently be presented as text, perhaps HTML with a few inline images if there are slides. And text (or HTML) has some HUGE advantages: * Download size is kilobytes, not gigabytes * Can be viewed on dialup, mobile, etc. without stuttering, not working at all, costing an arm and a leg, or etc. * Google can find it by the full content of the talk, not just what few keywords someone slaps onto the video's youtube page plus the inanities added by the inevitable swarm of troll commenters. * You can search in it yourself with ctrl-F in your browser. * You can skim it. * If you're a fast reader, you can probably read it and comprehend it all in less than an hour. * You can navigate in it very easily, using normal scrolling, search, and other browser tools, and see where you're going while you scroll, rather than having to drag a tiny little thingy across a tiny little seek bar blind, drop it, and then wait 40 seconds while a little wheel spins for the Flash player to *maybe* jump to the spot in the video, whereupon you will repeat the process a few times with ever finer adjustments; but the player might hang or snap back to where it was or crash instead. * You can keep a copy for offline viewing without needing: a) hacking tools to bypass the attempts by the popular video sites to be streaming-only, b) one or another big bloated piece of media player software that will steal file associations at inconvenient and random times, and c) a shitload of disk space. * No extra plugins etc. needed to view it that guzzle CPU and memory, crash at inconvenient times, and the like. You can view it in Lynx (minus the slides, if any) if you want to. You can view it on a 286 with no graphics card (not no 3D card, no graphics, period, just 80x24 text mode). You can view it on your old Commodore 64 with 300 baud modem if you want to and it won't take sixty thousand years to download on that either. * You can copy and paste bits of it into a snippets file or whatever, if there's bits you want to refer back to later that gave you technical ideas. Or print it out and apply hiliter to key passages. Or etc. * If you're blind you can still get screen-reader software to read it for you. If you're deaf, on the other hand, a video is quite likely to be completely useless, since streaming framerates and lip-reading don't tend to mix and none of these things seem to be closed-captioned. * Text is easy and cheap to mirror widely around the net and relatively easy to translate to other languages. Video can be hosted free at only a handful of sites and is more work to translate. What does video get you that text or HTML+images couldn't get you? * You can hear what the guy's voice actually sounds like. * You get to see a talking head bobbing around and lips moving in a jerky, stuttery sort of way. * You get the pronunciation, but not the spelling, of the obscure technical/latin words that get used, instead of the other way 'round. * There can be full-motion video demonstrations of things. Not worth what you lose, IMO, even if you aren't deaf, and especially if you are. Full-motion video demonstrations can be separate short videos embedded in a text+images web page. Oh, and by the way, your post doesn't even bother to actually say what, exactly, the talk is about. It implies strongly that it has something to do with interactive development tools, and it's clear that something in it wowed you, but that's it, and the URL itself is completely opaque. Apparently the only way to find out in more detail what the talk's topic is is to click the link, at minimum, and maybe you even have to play the video part-way. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group,
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:06 PM, gaz jones gareth.e.jo...@gmail.com wrote: Are you Ken Wesson with a new account? Who? Wait. Surely you don't think that it's not possible for more than one person to prefer text to video as a way of disseminating verbal information over the internet, given all of text's advantages in such areas as bandwidth, cost, and tool support? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
What does video get you that text or HTML+images couldn't get you? watching the video would answer the question and would have probably taken you less time than writing this email... Not worth what you lose, IMO how can you know if you haven't watched the video? -- Marco Abis -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Marco Abis marco.a...@gmail.com wrote: What does video get you that text or HTML+images couldn't get you? watching the video would answer the question and would have probably taken you less time than writing this email... Actually, it would have taken an hour, and writing the email took much less. Not worth what you lose, IMO how can you know if you haven't watched the video? Because it was described as a talk. That means the bulk of the actually meaningful content in it comes from someone's lips flapping. That can be rendered as text, easily. If there are slides, ... but I've already been over all of that. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
nah it's possible i guess, but he's the only other person i've ever seen type an essay about it on this forum in reply to someone posting a link to a video. also, he posts and yours are very similar and he disappeared shortly before you arrived. AND YOU WOULD HAVE GOT AWAY WITH IT IF IT WASNT FOR THOSE MEDDLING KIDS!! On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Cedric Greevey cgree...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:06 PM, gaz jones gareth.e.jo...@gmail.com wrote: Are you Ken Wesson with a new account? Who? Wait. Surely you don't think that it's not possible for more than one person to prefer text to video as a way of disseminating verbal information over the internet, given all of text's advantages in such areas as bandwidth, cost, and tool support? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
First: sorry, my reply was meant to be sent to you only, not the list Actually, it would have taken an hour, and writing the email took much less. ... Because it was described as a talk. That means the bulk of the actually meaningful content in it comes from someone's lips flapping. That can be rendered as text, easily. If there are slides, ... but I've already been over all of that. you are wrong, watch the video first -- Marco Abis -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Marco Abis marco.a...@gmail.com wrote: First: sorry, my reply was meant to be sent to you only, not the list Because it was described as a talk. That means the bulk of the actually meaningful content in it comes from someone's lips flapping. That can be rendered as text, easily. If there are slides, ... but I've already been over all of that. you are wrong, No, I am *not* wrong. A talk can be translated into text+embeds with very little or nothing being lost, almost by definition. It might be the case that the OP was wrong when he described the video in question as a talk, but that's a completely different matter. Regardless, I highly doubt that there's anywhere close to 60 minutes of video in there that couldn't be better presented in some other way. Most likely, it would be better as text and a few short video segments, the latter adding up to much less than 60 minutes in duration. watch the video No. A full hour is way, way too long for something analogous to a blog post or a mailing list message, and I have lots of other demands on my time. (As for gaz's conspiracy theory, I won't even dignify that with a separate response.) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Cedric Greevey cgree...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:06 PM, gaz jones gareth.e.jo...@gmail.com wrote: Are you Ken Wesson with a new account? Who? Wait. Surely you don't think that it's not possible for more than one person to prefer text to video as a way of disseminating verbal information over the internet, given all of text's advantages in such areas as bandwidth, cost, and tool support? Surely it's possible that you've never heard of Ken Wesson, he disappeared right before you joined, you respond to emails in the same manner, you share the same opinions. Seems legit, Ken. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Jay Fields j...@jayfields.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Cedric Greevey cgree...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:06 PM, gaz jones gareth.e.jo...@gmail.com wrote: Are you Ken Wesson with a new account? Who? Wait. Surely you don't think that it's not possible for more than one person to prefer text to video as a way of disseminating verbal information over the internet, given all of text's advantages in such areas as bandwidth, cost, and tool support? Surely it's possible that you've never heard of Ken Wesson, he disappeared right before you joined, you respond to emails in the same manner, you share the same opinions. Seems legit, Ken. If it is you, Ken, welcome back ;) I'm no doubt in the minority, but I've actually kind of missed your postings. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Jay Fields j...@jayfields.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Cedric Greevey cgree...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:06 PM, gaz jones gareth.e.jo...@gmail.com wrote: Are you Ken Wesson with a new account? Who? Wait. Surely you don't think that it's not possible for more than one person to prefer text to video as a way of disseminating verbal information over the internet, given all of text's advantages in such areas as bandwidth, cost, and tool support? Surely it's possible that you've never heard of Ken Wesson, he disappeared right before you joined, you respond to emails in the same manner, you share the same opinions. Seems legit, Ken. OK. I googled the group archives. Seems there was a Ken Wesson active on the list for a while, but he disappeared a couple of months before I joined. I'm not sure why people think I might be him. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
@cedric: I think you've made your point. I know you're not asking for advice, but I think the constructive thing would have been to ask: Could you please provide more context? Are there slides available of this talk? If you want to rant about this newfangled video contraption, this list is not the place. '(Devin Walters) On Friday, February 24, 2012 at 1:13 PM, Marco Abis wrote: What does video get you that text or HTML+images couldn't get you? watching the video would answer the question and would have probably taken you less time than writing this email... Not worth what you lose, IMO how can you know if you haven't watched the video? -- Marco Abis -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com (mailto:clojure@googlegroups.com) Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com (mailto:clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com) For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
On 02/24/2012 02:42 PM, Cedric Greevey wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Jay Fields j...@jayfields.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Cedric Greevey cgree...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:06 PM, gaz jones gareth.e.jo...@gmail.com wrote: Are you Ken Wesson with a new account? Who? Wait. Surely you don't think that it's not possible for more than one person to prefer text to video as a way of disseminating verbal information over the internet, given all of text's advantages in such areas as bandwidth, cost, and tool support? Surely it's possible that you've never heard of Ken Wesson, he disappeared right before you joined, you respond to emails in the same manner, you share the same opinions. Seems legit, Ken. OK. I googled the group archives. Seems there was a Ken Wesson active on the list for a while, but he disappeared a couple of months before I joined. I'm not sure why people think I might be him. Ken Wesson was noted for having strong opinions as was a noted hater of videos where text will do. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/0kCwGrFU5zs/NGclkY46fvEJ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Bringing this back on topic, I watched the video. Wow! was it worth it. This guy has some pretty mind-blowing demos. I highly recommend this, I'm going to have to sit down soon and code up a clone of his binary search tree demo. Timothy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Daniel E. Renfer duck112...@gmail.com wrote: On 02/24/2012 02:42 PM, Cedric Greevey wrote: OK. I googled the group archives. Seems there was a Ken Wesson active on the list for a while, but he disappeared a couple of months before I joined. I'm not sure why people think I might be him. Ken Wesson was noted for having strong opinions as was a noted hater of videos where text will do. Most of us on this list probably have strong opinions -- it tends to go with the territory of being smarter than the average bear. As for hating videos where text will do, need I repeat my list of bullet points again? It's quite *obvious*. It's no more surprising for multiple techies to find videos-where-text-will-do to be a troubling trend than for techies to find that Lisps and even Algols are nicer languages to program large systems in than Visual Basic. :) Especially since we techies are very used to using search tools and other things specifically geared around finding *text*, and often have multiple devices including mobile where bandwidth costs can quickly become exorbitant. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Perhaps someone will volunteer to transcribe it and post that. You know, maybe someone who can type quickly and prefers text. :-) I've done that for one of Rich's earlier talks posted as video. It takes time, and I'm not volunteering for this one. Andy On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:57 AM, Cedric Greevey wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Daniel E. Renfer duck112...@gmail.com wrote: On 02/24/2012 02:42 PM, Cedric Greevey wrote: OK. I googled the group archives. Seems there was a Ken Wesson active on the list for a while, but he disappeared a couple of months before I joined. I'm not sure why people think I might be him. Ken Wesson was noted for having strong opinions as was a noted hater of videos where text will do. Most of us on this list probably have strong opinions -- it tends to go with the territory of being smarter than the average bear. As for hating videos where text will do, need I repeat my list of bullet points again? It's quite *obvious*. It's no more surprising for multiple techies to find videos-where-text-will-do to be a troubling trend than for techies to find that Lisps and even Algols are nicer languages to program large systems in than Visual Basic. :) Especially since we techies are very used to using search tools and other things specifically geared around finding *text*, and often have multiple devices including mobile where bandwidth costs can quickly become exorbitant. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
I need a braille version, any volunteer ? BTWY, what was the initial subject of this thread ? I'm half-joking here, welcome back Mr Wesson. : Mr Smith Perhaps someone will volunteer to transcribe it and post that. You know, maybe someone who can type quickly and prefers text. :-) I've done that for one of Rich's earlier talks posted as video. It takes time, and I'm not volunteering for this one. Andy On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:57 AM, Cedric Greevey wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Daniel E. Renfer duck112...@gmail.com wrote: On 02/24/2012 02:42 PM, Cedric Greevey wrote: OK. I googled the group archives. Seems there was a Ken Wesson active on the list for a while, but he disappeared a couple of months before I joined. I'm not sure why people think I might be him. Ken Wesson was noted for having strong opinions as was a noted hater of videos where text will do. Most of us on this list probably have strong opinions -- it tends to go with the territory of being smarter than the average bear. As for hating videos where text will do, need I repeat my list of bullet points again? It's quite *obvious*. It's no more surprising for multiple techies to find videos-where-text-will-do to be a troubling trend than for techies to find that Lisps and even Algols are nicer languages to program large systems in than Visual Basic. :) Especially since we techies are very used to using search tools and other things specifically geared around finding *text*, and often have multiple devices including mobile where bandwidth costs can quickly become exorbitant. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Softaddictslprefonta...@softaddicts.ca sent by ibisMail! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Sorry, I certainly didn't intend to start such a heated debate ;o) Hopefully some of you appreciate the link but you're all free to ignore. The truth is, no matter the media, there are too many interesting things and you need to choose. I had this video in my todo list for a week before I took the time to watch it. After that, I thought it was kind of special and worth sharing, any textual representation would betray its essence in my opinion. 2012/2/24 Andy Fingerhut andy.finger...@gmail.com Perhaps someone will volunteer to transcribe it and post that. You know, maybe someone who can type quickly and prefers text. :-) I've done that for one of Rich's earlier talks posted as video. It takes time, and I'm not volunteering for this one. Andy On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:57 AM, Cedric Greevey wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Daniel E. Renfer duck112...@gmail.com wrote: On 02/24/2012 02:42 PM, Cedric Greevey wrote: OK. I googled the group archives. Seems there was a Ken Wesson active on the list for a while, but he disappeared a couple of months before I joined. I'm not sure why people think I might be him. Ken Wesson was noted for having strong opinions as was a noted hater of videos where text will do. Most of us on this list probably have strong opinions -- it tends to go with the territory of being smarter than the average bear. As for hating videos where text will do, need I repeat my list of bullet points again? It's quite *obvious*. It's no more surprising for multiple techies to find videos-where-text-will-do to be a troubling trend than for techies to find that Lisps and even Algols are nicer languages to program large systems in than Visual Basic. :) Especially since we techies are very used to using search tools and other things specifically geared around finding *text*, and often have multiple devices including mobile where bandwidth costs can quickly become exorbitant. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Damien Lepage http://damienlepage.com @damienlepage https://twitter.com/#!/damienlepage linkedin.com/in/damienlepage http://www.linkedin.com/in/damienlepage -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
On Feb 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Daniel E. Renfer wrote: Ken Wesson was noted for having strong opinions as was a noted hater of videos where text will do. He was also the only guy who would post replies with just you're welcome as the body. Until Cedric, that is... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 24 févr. 2012 à 19:29, Damien Lepage damienlep...@gmail.com a écrit : Hi Everyone, You may have seen this already, if not I believe it's worth investing 1h of your life: http://vimeo.com/36579366 That's already a good candidate for the technical talk of the year, if not the decade IMO. Ok, I'm getting a bit too enthusiastic here but this is so inspiring. After watching it, you can't help thinking that we have a whole new world to invent. As a side note, you may start thinking that a REPL is not good enough. - Personal message to Laurent Petit: please watch and start thinking about CCW 1.0 ;o) - Hello Damien, I had already watched the first half of the talk. I found the live demonstrations rather impressive, indeed. I've since wondered how this could be generalized, which does not seem that easy. Anyway, certainly a fun and entertaining goal to achieve ! Think about playing with overtone that way, for example ... Also, sorry for you that your original question has been totally high jacked by someone how's not even taken the time to understand what you were talking about before starting his generalized rant. Maybe not for CCW 1.0, but for 2.0, who knows ? Anyway, Cedric the self-described smarter than average guy, please note that, as usual, patches are welcome ;-) It also feels like ClojureScript is on the right path. But, most importantly, beyond any technical consideration, the last part is a great life lesson. -- Damien Lepage http://damienlepage.com @damienlepage https://twitter.com/#!/damienlepage linkedin.com/in/damienlepage http://www.linkedin.com/in/damienlepage -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Marco Abis marco.a...@gmail.com wrote: First: sorry, my reply was meant to be sent to you only, not the list Because it was described as a talk. That means the bulk of the actually meaningful content in it comes from someone's lips flapping. That can be rendered as text, easily. If there are slides, ... but I've already been over all of that. you are wrong, No, I am *not* wrong. A talk can be translated into text+embeds with very little or nothing being lost, almost by definition. It might be the case that the OP was wrong when he described the video in question as a talk, but that's a completely different matter. Regardless, I highly doubt that there's anywhere close to 60 minutes of video in there that couldn't be better presented in some other way. Most likely, it would be better as text and a few short video segments, the latter adding up to much less than 60 minutes in duration. watch the video No. A full hour is way, way too long for something analogous to a blog post or a mailing list message, and I have lots of other demands on my time. Hi, My real name is Stuart Halloway, and I have the ability to remove people from this mailing list. People who continue off-topic debates about the merits of video vs. text will be removed. Let's get back to Clojure. Thanks. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Thanks for posting the link. I've been following Bret Victor's blog and the stuff he has been doing for some time. Bret has built some very impressive UIs using OpenLaszlo, and he is a fan of the technology and the expressiveness of the LZX language for building UIs. OpenLaszlo was created by bunch of smart folks and Lispers, including Oliver Steele (worked for Apple on Dylan), Max Carlson, Tucker Withington (worked for Symbolics and Harlequin, implemented the GC for Dylan when Apple hired Harlequin to work on the language), and Henry Minsky (Marvin Minsky's son). http://osteele.com/ http://pt.withy.org/ Here's an old gestural zoom/pan demo Bret built with OpenLaszlo: http://worrydream.com/GesturalZoomAndPan/ OpenLaszlo's LZX language uses a declarative approach to building UIs and highly interactive applications (check this video of the Laszlo Dashboard, which was created in 2002/2003 http://vimeo.com/14206607). LZX is a mixture of XML tags + JavaScript, which initially was compiled into SWF bytecode. In 2007 Laszlo added cross-compilation to JavaScript (DHTML runtime) to the platform, and in 2009 cross-compilation to ActionScript 3 (which is then compiled into SWF using the Flex SDK). Here's a video of the LzPix application, the first OpenLaszlo app to cross-compile to JavaScript http://vimeo.com/32853986 My technology dream-team for client development would be ClojureScript combined with OpenLaszlo (has a powerful view kernel with interesting stuff like constraints, datapath mapping using xpath, simple yet powerful animation APIs). Instead of using XML + JavaScript, I'd prefer to use a more Clojure/Lisp like syntax to build UIs with OpenLaszlo in combination with ClojureScript. There's a slight chance that we can get the OpenLaszlo Lisp folks interested in integrating OpenLaszlo with ClojureScript (they are all working at Nest Labs now), and I'm sure that Bret Victor would love the combination as a tool for building some awesome prototypes. - Raju -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Thanks for bringing the discussion back on track. That's a great list of contexts links. David On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Raju Bitter rajubit...@googlemail.comwrote: Thanks for posting the link. I've been following Bret Victor's blog and the stuff he has been doing for some time. Bret has built some very impressive UIs using OpenLaszlo, and he is a fan of the technology and the expressiveness of the LZX language for building UIs. OpenLaszlo was created by bunch of smart folks and Lispers, including Oliver Steele (worked for Apple on Dylan), Max Carlson, Tucker Withington (worked for Symbolics and Harlequin, implemented the GC for Dylan when Apple hired Harlequin to work on the language), and Henry Minsky (Marvin Minsky's son). http://osteele.com/ http://pt.withy.org/ Here's an old gestural zoom/pan demo Bret built with OpenLaszlo: http://worrydream.com/GesturalZoomAndPan/ OpenLaszlo's LZX language uses a declarative approach to building UIs and highly interactive applications (check this video of the Laszlo Dashboard, which was created in 2002/2003 http://vimeo.com/14206607). LZX is a mixture of XML tags + JavaScript, which initially was compiled into SWF bytecode. In 2007 Laszlo added cross-compilation to JavaScript (DHTML runtime) to the platform, and in 2009 cross-compilation to ActionScript 3 (which is then compiled into SWF using the Flex SDK). Here's a video of the LzPix application, the first OpenLaszlo app to cross-compile to JavaScript http://vimeo.com/32853986 My technology dream-team for client development would be ClojureScript combined with OpenLaszlo (has a powerful view kernel with interesting stuff like constraints, datapath mapping using xpath, simple yet powerful animation APIs). Instead of using XML + JavaScript, I'd prefer to use a more Clojure/Lisp like syntax to build UIs with OpenLaszlo in combination with ClojureScript. There's a slight chance that we can get the OpenLaszlo Lisp folks interested in integrating OpenLaszlo with ClojureScript (they are all working at Nest Labs now), and I'm sure that Bret Victor would love the combination as a tool for building some awesome prototypes. - Raju -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
That's a great talk, and a great basic principle: that creators need an immediate connection to their creation. I realized this has also been my side project for the last few months, though mostly in hammock phase. I think the foundational technology we need, as a community, is an html5 repl. You type code into the browser, and can create output that takes advantage of the host's capabilities - graphics, video, UI etc. The problem is a bit more multifaceted then just html though, as it also involves UI state, persisting the sessions, how to share/reuse the creations, and the general problem of UI description in the context of clojurescript. But where this gets you is this: a clojure interaction environment based on web standards, rather than narrow dialects like elisp and swing. So the lines between programming clojure, extending the clojure programming environment, and deploying webapps goes away. It's possible to see a line between this category of tool, and the demos in the presentation. If the game is tightly coupling data, code, and complex visual representation, we have the building blocks to bust that game wide open. It makes no sense to build on a platform other than the web, and IMHO the big step there is to program clojure from the web, to produce fully-active web content. Another aspect of immediate connection, and one not mentioned in the talk, is the social aspect. You make things, and show them to people, get feedback, see things others have made. Now imagine if the clojure community was creating in a system that is inherently web based. Many interesting things could be built on that. On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Raju Bitter rajubit...@googlemail.com wrote: Thanks for posting the link. I've been following Bret Victor's blog and the stuff he has been doing for some time. Bret has built some very impressive UIs using OpenLaszlo, and he is a fan of the technology and the expressiveness of the LZX language for building UIs. OpenLaszlo was created by bunch of smart folks and Lispers, including Oliver Steele (worked for Apple on Dylan), Max Carlson, Tucker Withington (worked for Symbolics and Harlequin, implemented the GC for Dylan when Apple hired Harlequin to work on the language), and Henry Minsky (Marvin Minsky's son). http://osteele.com/ http://pt.withy.org/ Here's an old gestural zoom/pan demo Bret built with OpenLaszlo: http://worrydream.com/GesturalZoomAndPan/ OpenLaszlo's LZX language uses a declarative approach to building UIs and highly interactive applications (check this video of the Laszlo Dashboard, which was created in 2002/2003 http://vimeo.com/14206607). LZX is a mixture of XML tags + JavaScript, which initially was compiled into SWF bytecode. In 2007 Laszlo added cross-compilation to JavaScript (DHTML runtime) to the platform, and in 2009 cross-compilation to ActionScript 3 (which is then compiled into SWF using the Flex SDK). Here's a video of the LzPix application, the first OpenLaszlo app to cross-compile to JavaScript http://vimeo.com/32853986 My technology dream-team for client development would be ClojureScript combined with OpenLaszlo (has a powerful view kernel with interesting stuff like constraints, datapath mapping using xpath, simple yet powerful animation APIs). Instead of using XML + JavaScript, I'd prefer to use a more Clojure/Lisp like syntax to build UIs with OpenLaszlo in combination with ClojureScript. There's a slight chance that we can get the OpenLaszlo Lisp folks interested in integrating OpenLaszlo with ClojureScript (they are all working at Nest Labs now), and I'm sure that Bret Victor would love the combination as a tool for building some awesome prototypes. - Raju -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Hi, this video showed up on my G+ stream about a week ago and it was /fun/ to watch. I think most of the people around here will be more intrigued by the first half, which has a focus on programming. Side-note: this is one of the (few) video presentations that just can't be translated to text. Wait for the slider in the browser game... However, I digress... Am Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 21:34:54 UTC+1 schrieb lpetit: Hello Damien, I had already watched the first half of the talk. I found the live demonstrations rather impressive, indeed. I've since wondered how this could be generalized, I may be wrong, but I as far as I understand the message of the video it is explicitly not about generalization. It's more about finding a niche of programming where you can make the experience of the person doing things more direct. Thus, I'd rather consider the particular situation of a person doing UI-stuff with seesaw or doing web-stuff with ring and friends or whatever, the direct thing. I think Overtone does a lot right from this point of view. But then again, the niche may be programmers writing pure functions and the example of the video may apply. After all this has been said, of course I may have misunderstood your remark about generalization, Laurent. Kind regards, Stefan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
That's a nice summary, and is part of what I'm hoping to enable with nREPL.[1] I started with it trying to provide a tool-agnostic REPL backend, but I quickly wanted to get past the rigid text orientation of that medium. Yes, Clojure forms are always read as text, and that's the dominant medium of interaction used by programmers everywhere, but it doesn't (and maybe shouldn't) be that way. Certainly, the leverage provided by well-executed, relevant, perhaps-interactive visualizations is becoming widely appreciated; I don't see why we should allow our programming practice to be segregated in a text ghetto when different mediums are better — or necessary. Anyway, nREPL has developed to the point where middlewares can be written to easily offer richer representations of data within the REPL. An example of my earliest (primitive!) experiments around this are available here[2]. Images and other data flowing through a REPL isn't a _huge_ deal, except that: * nREPL is tool-agnostic; reply (and therefore Leiningen v2) or vimclojure or jark or textmate or sublime text can elect to receive those other representations, and present them to the user however is appropriate * nREPL is transport-agnostic; the default socket transport (bencode[3] with some particular semantics) is very lightweight, and can receive or transmit binary data efficiently (a distinct advantage compared to shipping textual encodings of such data in e.g. s-expressions). A proof of concept of a tty transport is included in nREPL (so you could connect to an nREPL backend using something as meager as telnet), and I have a sketch of an nREPL ring handler that I'll get out on github soon. This should allow you to easily drop an nREPL endpoint into any ring app, connect to it with any HTTP or nREPL client, and do anything you'd like to do in a REPL without tunneling, mucking around with ssh tunnels, and taking advantage of all existing webapp security regime you have in place. And, if you have the right middlewares in place and a suitably-capable client, rich representations of REPL data and rich interactions with the same should be within arm's reach. I have less of a vision for the HTML5 side of things. I'm certain a killer in-browser nREPL client could be put together to take advantage of all of the above, whether it's connecting to an HTTP nREPL endpoint or a (web)socket transport using nREPL's wire protocol, but I'm personally more interested on thick clients (perhaps embedding webviews as necessary!) for various reasons. FYI, for anyone working on tooling to help support things like this, I'd invite you to join the clojure-tools group I created recently: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-tools/browse_thread/thread/48ff47ab5d7ca2c?hl=en Cheers, - Chas [1] http://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl [2] http://cemerick.com/2011/10/26/enabling-richer-interactions-in-the-clojure-repl/ [3] It turns out that bencode and the way nREPL uses it seems similar to but much simpler than Google's SPDY protocol. On Feb 24, 2012, at 5:33 PM, kovas boguta wrote: That's a great talk, and a great basic principle: that creators need an immediate connection to their creation. I realized this has also been my side project for the last few months, though mostly in hammock phase. I think the foundational technology we need, as a community, is an html5 repl. You type code into the browser, and can create output that takes advantage of the host's capabilities - graphics, video, UI etc. The problem is a bit more multifaceted then just html though, as it also involves UI state, persisting the sessions, how to share/reuse the creations, and the general problem of UI description in the context of clojurescript. But where this gets you is this: a clojure interaction environment based on web standards, rather than narrow dialects like elisp and swing. So the lines between programming clojure, extending the clojure programming environment, and deploying webapps goes away. It's possible to see a line between this category of tool, and the demos in the presentation. If the game is tightly coupling data, code, and complex visual representation, we have the building blocks to bust that game wide open. It makes no sense to build on a platform other than the web, and IMHO the big step there is to program clojure from the web, to produce fully-active web content. Another aspect of immediate connection, and one not mentioned in the talk, is the social aspect. You make things, and show them to people, get feedback, see things others have made. Now imagine if the clojure community was creating in a system that is inherently web based. Many interesting things could be built on that. On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Raju Bitter rajubit...@googlemail.com wrote: Thanks for posting the link. I've been following Bret Victor's blog and the stuff he has been doing for some time. Bret has built
Re: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle
Why listen to music when you could read lyrics? Watching a well-performed talk is about making an emotional connection with the storyteller. Go read the I have a dream speech, then watch the video. They're both powerful, but the performance trumps the script. (Please don't troll me on the example, I'm not making a comparison between speakers :) On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Cedric Greevey cgree...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:06 PM, gaz jones gareth.e.jo...@gmail.com wrote: Are you Ken Wesson with a new account? Who? Wait. Surely you don't think that it's not possible for more than one person to prefer text to video as a way of disseminating verbal information over the internet, given all of text's advantages in such areas as bandwidth, cost, and tool support? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Sam Ritchie, Twitter Inc 703.662.1337 @sritchie09 (Too brief? Here's why! http://emailcharter.org) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
