Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Ernestas Lisauskas]

There was a question at LangNext 2014 conference: what is a systems
programming language in 2014? https://youtu.be/BBbv1ej0fFo?t=3m43s

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Brian Hurt  wrote:

> I have no flipping clue what "system-level programming" means these days,
> and I'm hoping someone could spell it out.  I used to think (back when I
> was doing that sort of stuff) that it mean operating systems level stuff-
> device drivers, embedded, real time, stuff like that.  But no language with
> a GC or non-trivial run time is a good fit for that.  From usage, I now
> think it means "we refuse to use Java".
>
> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 11:45 PM, Mikera 
> wrote:
>
>> Go is fine for system-level programming, but I personally wouldn't use it
>> as a web application programming language. Ten reasons to consider.:
>>
>> 1. There isn't really much speed difference on micro-benchmarks between
>> JVM code and Go. See e.g.:
>> http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/go.html
>>
>> 2. In many real-world cases JVM code will outperform Go, see e.g.
>> http://zhen.org/blog/go-vs-java-decoding-billions-of-integers-per-second/
>>
>> 3. The JVM GC is superior to the GC in Go. This makes a big difference
>> for complex applications with a lot of live objects on the heap, especially
>> when dealing with stuff like immutable persistent data structures (and you
>> want to use those, right?). Overall, I'd expect Clojure to easily
>> outperform Go for these types of applications.
>>
>> 4. The JVM startup time / memory overhead is irrelevant for long running
>> server applications. If you are restarting the JVM regularly, you are
>> definitely doing something wrong. The JVM is well tuned for long-running
>> server side web applications in general, rather than the lightweight
>> processes / scripts that are more suited to Go.
>>
>> 5. Functional programming is natural in Clojure and is IMHO the future
>> for building modern applications
>>
>> 6. If you like the CSP stuff (goroutines, channels etc.), Clojure has the
>> excellent core.async, which basically lets you do all the nice CSP type
>> things in Clojure you can do in Go. However that isn't forced on you:
>> Clojure supports a lot of other paradigms for concurrent programming.
>> Choose what works best for you.
>>
>> 7. The open source library ecosystem on the JVM is awesome. There's
>> nothing like it for any other language. Even if nobody has written a
>> Clojure library that wraps up the functionality you need yet, using Java
>> libraries from Clojure is very painless (often easier than using Java
>> libraries from Java!)
>>
>> 8. Virtually all the key big data stuff depends on the JVM. Spark, Hadoop
>> ecosystem etc. Being on the JVM is a valuable strategic choice if you are
>> into data processing. / analytics.
>>
>> 9. Clojure has an compelling full stack development story with
>> ClojureScript on the browser and Clojure on the server. It's pretty useful
>> to be able to share code between the server and the client.
>>
>> 10. Once you've experienced interactive REPL driven web application
>> development with stuff like Figwheel, you probably won't want to go back to
>> anything else
>>
>> On Monday, 14 September 2015 03:44:48 UTC+8, Alan Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm about to start a new web project and they are thinking about using
>>> Go (golang) instead of a JVM (preferably Clojure) based approach.  The idea
>>> is "BARE METAL SPEED!!!", but I really think the network and DB will be the
>>> bottlenecks, not Clojure vs Go.
>>>
>>> Is anybody out there aware of any speed comparisons using
>>> Clojure/Pedestal and/or Go?  I'm thinking basic measurements like
>>> connections/sec, latency, simultaneous users, etc.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Alan
>>>
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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Josh Kamau]

11.  Leiningen and painless dependency management.

Josh

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 7:08 AM, Michael Gardner 
wrote:

> On Sep 15, 2015, at 20:45, Mikera  wrote:
> >
> > 7. The open source library ecosystem on the JVM is awesome. There's
> nothing like it for any other language.
>
> I like your other points, but in my experience this one is (arguably) no
> longer true. I've often found the JVM library ecosystem to be lacking in
> comparison to Python's, especially for newer problem domains. I'd attribute
> this to Java no longer being a "hip" language, which counts for a lot in
> OSS development!
>
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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Colin Yates]

12. Community (although I have no idea what Go's community is like to be fair)

And an upgrade to the "full stack" comment is full stack including over the 
wire translation with edn and transmit.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 16 Sep 2015, at 10:02, Josh Kamau  wrote:
> 
> 11.  Leiningen and painless dependency management.  
> 
> Josh
> 
>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 7:08 AM, Michael Gardner  wrote:
>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 20:45, Mikera  wrote:
>> >
>> > 7. The open source library ecosystem on the JVM is awesome. There's 
>> > nothing like it for any other language.
>> 
>> I like your other points, but in my experience this one is (arguably) no 
>> longer true. I've often found the JVM library ecosystem to be lacking in 
>> comparison to Python's, especially for newer problem domains. I'd attribute 
>> this to Java no longer being a "hip" language, which counts for a lot in OSS 
>> development!
>> 
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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Brian Hurt]

I have no flipping clue what "system-level programming" means these days,
and I'm hoping someone could spell it out.  I used to think (back when I
was doing that sort of stuff) that it mean operating systems level stuff-
device drivers, embedded, real time, stuff like that.  But no language with
a GC or non-trivial run time is a good fit for that.  From usage, I now
think it means "we refuse to use Java".

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 11:45 PM, Mikera 
wrote:

> Go is fine for system-level programming, but I personally wouldn't use it
> as a web application programming language. Ten reasons to consider.:
>
> 1. There isn't really much speed difference on micro-benchmarks between
> JVM code and Go. See e.g.:
> http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/go.html
>
> 2. In many real-world cases JVM code will outperform Go, see e.g.
> http://zhen.org/blog/go-vs-java-decoding-billions-of-integers-per-second/
>
> 3. The JVM GC is superior to the GC in Go. This makes a big difference for
> complex applications with a lot of live objects on the heap, especially
> when dealing with stuff like immutable persistent data structures (and you
> want to use those, right?). Overall, I'd expect Clojure to easily
> outperform Go for these types of applications.
>
> 4. The JVM startup time / memory overhead is irrelevant for long running
> server applications. If you are restarting the JVM regularly, you are
> definitely doing something wrong. The JVM is well tuned for long-running
> server side web applications in general, rather than the lightweight
> processes / scripts that are more suited to Go.
>
> 5. Functional programming is natural in Clojure and is IMHO the future for
> building modern applications
>
> 6. If you like the CSP stuff (goroutines, channels etc.), Clojure has the
> excellent core.async, which basically lets you do all the nice CSP type
> things in Clojure you can do in Go. However that isn't forced on you:
> Clojure supports a lot of other paradigms for concurrent programming.
> Choose what works best for you.
>
> 7. The open source library ecosystem on the JVM is awesome. There's
> nothing like it for any other language. Even if nobody has written a
> Clojure library that wraps up the functionality you need yet, using Java
> libraries from Clojure is very painless (often easier than using Java
> libraries from Java!)
>
> 8. Virtually all the key big data stuff depends on the JVM. Spark, Hadoop
> ecosystem etc. Being on the JVM is a valuable strategic choice if you are
> into data processing. / analytics.
>
> 9. Clojure has an compelling full stack development story with
> ClojureScript on the browser and Clojure on the server. It's pretty useful
> to be able to share code between the server and the client.
>
> 10. Once you've experienced interactive REPL driven web application
> development with stuff like Figwheel, you probably won't want to go back to
> anything else
>
> On Monday, 14 September 2015 03:44:48 UTC+8, Alan Thompson wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm about to start a new web project and they are thinking about using Go
>> (golang) instead of a JVM (preferably Clojure) based approach.  The idea is
>> "BARE METAL SPEED!!!", but I really think the network and DB will be the
>> bottlenecks, not Clojure vs Go.
>>
>> Is anybody out there aware of any speed comparisons using
>> Clojure/Pedestal and/or Go?  I'm thinking basic measurements like
>> connections/sec, latency, simultaneous users, etc.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Alan
>>
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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Mikera]

Go is fine for system-level programming, but I personally wouldn't use it 
as a web application programming language. Ten reasons to consider.:

1. There isn't really much speed difference on micro-benchmarks between JVM 
code and Go. See e.g.: http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/go.html

2. In many real-world cases JVM code will outperform Go, see e.g. 
http://zhen.org/blog/go-vs-java-decoding-billions-of-integers-per-second/

3. The JVM GC is superior to the GC in Go. This makes a big difference for 
complex applications with a lot of live objects on the heap, especially 
when dealing with stuff like immutable persistent data structures (and you 
want to use those, right?). Overall, I'd expect Clojure to easily 
outperform Go for these types of applications. 

4. The JVM startup time / memory overhead is irrelevant for long running 
server applications. If you are restarting the JVM regularly, you are 
definitely doing something wrong. The JVM is well tuned for long-running 
server side web applications in general, rather than the lightweight 
processes / scripts that are more suited to Go.

5. Functional programming is natural in Clojure and is IMHO the future for 
building modern applications

6. If you like the CSP stuff (goroutines, channels etc.), Clojure has the 
excellent core.async, which basically lets you do all the nice CSP type 
things in Clojure you can do in Go. However that isn't forced on you: 
Clojure supports a lot of other paradigms for concurrent programming. 
Choose what works best for you.

7. The open source library ecosystem on the JVM is awesome. There's nothing 
like it for any other language. Even if nobody has written a Clojure 
library that wraps up the functionality you need yet, using Java libraries 
from Clojure is very painless (often easier than using Java libraries from 
Java!)

8. Virtually all the key big data stuff depends on the JVM. Spark, Hadoop 
ecosystem etc. Being on the JVM is a valuable strategic choice if you are 
into data processing. / analytics.

9. Clojure has an compelling full stack development story with 
ClojureScript on the browser and Clojure on the server. It's pretty useful 
to be able to share code between the server and the client.

10. Once you've experienced interactive REPL driven web application 
development with stuff like Figwheel, you probably won't want to go back to 
anything else

On Monday, 14 September 2015 03:44:48 UTC+8, Alan Thompson wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm about to start a new web project and they are thinking about using Go 
> (golang) instead of a JVM (preferably Clojure) based approach.  The idea is 
> "BARE METAL SPEED!!!", but I really think the network and DB will be the 
> bottlenecks, not Clojure vs Go.
>
> Is anybody out there aware of any speed comparisons using Clojure/Pedestal 
> and/or Go?  I'm thinking basic measurements like connections/sec, latency, 
> simultaneous users, etc.
>
> Thanks,
> Alan
>

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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Michael Gardner]

On Sep 15, 2015, at 20:45, Mikera  wrote:
> 
> 7. The open source library ecosystem on the JVM is awesome. There's nothing 
> like it for any other language.

I like your other points, but in my experience this one is (arguably) no longer 
true. I've often found the JVM library ecosystem to be lacking in comparison to 
Python's, especially for newer problem domains. I'd attribute this to Java no 
longer being a "hip" language, which counts for a lot in OSS development!

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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Christopher Small]

I also am no Go expert. All I'll add is that I overheard that the lead 
author rejected a proposal to add `map` to the language, stating that it is 
"too niche". Doesn't bode well for FP in Go...

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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Alan Moore]

Max,

You obviously know way more than I do about Go... I stand corrected, thanks. I 
did know that it doesn't support TCO so it doesn't surprise me that other 
language features went the wrong way too.

I did not mean to misinform anyone, my apologies for speaking beyond my core 
competency (Go is not one of them.) I was trying to give our friend some 
hope... Those of us with day jobs in C/C++ (and Go) need some of that to keep 
us sane. :-(

Alan

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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[kovas boguta]

At least in one area -- data infrastructure -- the JVM has no
competitors for off-the-shelf solutions.

Hadoop, Spark, Storm, Kafka, Cassandra, HBase, etc etc are all JVM-based.

In the alpha-nerd set, one can easily argue that the relevance of Go
is fading and its being replaced by Rust.

I'm not too worried.


On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Max Countryman  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd love to see some discussion about this as well: I've struggled to
> justify the JVM in a production environment that's dominated by Go. My
> experience with my team has been that they are very unwilling to use the JVM
> and will go to great lengths to avoid it. The argument seems to be that Go
> produces light, extremely fast binaries, and has phenomenal networking
> libraries built into the standard lib, making it ideal for writing
> server-side components that may handle large amounts of data and need to
> scale horizontally. Despite my attempts to have members of my team checkout
> Clojure the final decision has always been to use Go instead. I'm personally
> a bit concerned that Go has started to become the replacement for Java and
> that the relevance of the JVM may be declining. It would be great to see
> some counterpoints to Go vis-à-vis Clojure and the JVM.
>
>
> Max
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 13, 2015, at 12:44, Alan Thompson  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm about to start a new web project and they are thinking about using Go
> (golang) instead of a JVM (preferably Clojure) based approach.  The idea is
> "BARE METAL SPEED!!!", but I really think the network and DB will be the
> bottlenecks, not Clojure vs Go.
>
> Is anybody out there aware of any speed comparisons using Clojure/Pedestal
> and/or Go?  I'm thinking basic measurements like connections/sec, latency,
> simultaneous users, etc.
>
> Thanks,
> Alan
>
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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Max Countryman]

Alan,

Absolutely no need to apologize! :) I would hardly consider myself an expert 
either, I’m basing my understanding on the experiences I’ve had at my day job 
and the large body of developing articles and blogposts related to the language 
that seem to pop up at a near-constant rate on your favorite programming news 
aggregator.

If people are doing FP with Go somewhere, that’s awesome and I would love to 
see it. My suspicion is it’s difficult and generally not what you “want” to be 
doing with the language. Go’s popularity is a big disappoint for me personally, 
but again your experience may differ.


Max

> On Sep 15, 2015, at 10:18, Alan Moore  wrote:
> 
> Max,
> 
> You obviously know way more than I do about Go... I stand corrected, thanks. 
> I did know that it doesn't support TCO so it doesn't surprise me that other 
> language features went the wrong way too.
> 
> I did not mean to misinform anyone, my apologies for speaking beyond my core 
> competency (Go is not one of them.) I was trying to give our friend some 
> hope... Those of us with day jobs in C/C++ (and Go) need some of that to keep 
> us sane. :-(
> 
> Alan
> 
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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Max Countryman]

Hi Alan,

>From my experience this is not true: Go does not provide generics and actively 
>resists what most of us would consider good functional programming--Go is very 
>opinionated and doesn't allow much deviation from these opinions, by design.  
>So implementing practical immutable data structures would be difficult and 
>likely of limited utility in Go. That said, you should still try yourself if 
>given the opportunity. 


Max

> On Sep 14, 2015, at 21:44, Alan Moore  wrote:
> 
> One more thing: if you are truly stuck with Go you can still adopt functional 
> patterns, style and data structures to good effect. Just because the opening 
> paren is on the wrong side of the function name doesn't mean you can't find 
> (or write?) an immutable data structure library for Go and promote functional 
> programming ideas within your team.
> 
> Here is are some simple examples from C++ (from one of the authors of the D 
> language):
> 
> http://bartoszmilewski.com/2014/06/09/the-functional-revolution-in-c
> http://bartoszmilewski.com/2013/11/25/functional-data-structures-in-c-trees
> https://github.com/BartoszMilewski/Okasaki
> 
> I'm pretty sure you could port these or some other implementation to Go 
> fairly easily - YMMV.
> 
> Alan
> 
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 7:18 PM, Alan Moore  
>> wrote:
>> I'll second Paul's comments and raise you two:
>> 
>> 1) Depending on your app's use cases, speed going forward will be gained 
>> primarily from parallelism. I think Clojure has a better story there than Go 
>> but that is just my opinion.
>> 
>> 2) It is very hard to fight against cultural bias against the JVM. I work in 
>> embedded systems where anything but C/C++ (or Lua, Python) is taboo. Your 
>> best bet is to "Go" with their momentum and when they run into a roadblock 
>> in Go (probably something related to mutability/locks in the face of heavy 
>> load), give a shot at the same problem with Clojure.
>> 
>> Obviously this has to be done in a non-intrusive way (on the other end of a 
>> socket) but will give you a chance to prove Clojure and the JVM can handle 
>> the job. Unfortunately your company won't gain the other benefits of Clojure 
>> beyond just performance (e.g. clarity, simplicity, etc.) because the rest of 
>> the code base will be in Go but... clearly that ship has already sailed.
>> 
>> Good luck! Let us know how things turn out.
>> 
>> Alan
>> 
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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Paul deGrandis]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for reaching out on the Pedestal mailing list!
Most web benchmarks care more about throughput and concurrent connection 
than latency, but sadly, nearly all benchmarks show these measurements as 
scalars instead of distributions.  The "errors" number is the number of 
requests that resulted in a server error (because of 
overload/mishandling).  A robust server that correctly understands 
back-pressure and can efficiently process requests on a queue should result 
in no errors, assuming that it can process the queued requests at the rate 
in which they're being received.

The "keepalive" flag refers to TCP keepalive, which will affect speed and 
connection timeout.

While I'm not aware of any benchmark between Pedestal and Go, I would be 
highly skeptical of such a benchmark.  Web benchmarks are often very 
misleading - they represent an application you'd never write, integrated 
into a server in a way you'd never do, just to get the highest overall 
number possible.  I would instead encourage you to look for measurements 
related directly to the quality attributes you care about, for the specific 
pieces of your overall application.  I'd also think about what you're 
really trying to optimize.

With Clojure you get the power of Lisp - you get to use go-channels, 
property-based generative testing, pattern matching, logic programming - 
all as libraries.  You can extend the language however you need, to build 
the most efficient system.  Hell, you can even write directly to the LLVM 
 compiler to get bare-metal speed 
(again, just a library).  You get the power and speed of interactive 
development, with the focus of small, composable, functional units (first 
class functions, immutable data structures, protocols).
I recently needed to do very fast binary processing for a wire protocol, 
and I was able to utilize Netty within Clojure to do the entire thing 
off-heap (no GC impact), and with native byte handling - Clojure gives you 
immediate access to the powerful library ecosystem on the JVM.  You can 
even connect your editor to a running system to inspect, debug, evolve, and 
patch it.

While Golang's community is growing and great libraries are appearing in 
the ecosystem (Pedestal's router 
 was heavily influenced by 
httprouter), the language and runtime aren't nearly as powerful as Clojure, 
for me.  I have far greater flexibility and power with Clojure, and the 
opportunity to optimize my application and process where it matters most.

We benchmark Pedestal against other web libraries with real production 
systems.  In every benchmark we've done so far, Pedestal has come out on 
top.  We also look at more than just runtime performance characteristics - 
we consider code size, system complexity, etc.
Additionally Pedestal is secure by default - all of the best security 
practices are automatically enabled in Pedestal (you have to explicitly 
asked for them to be turned off).  We're also only one of two Clojure web 
systems that is truly asynchronous.  You can also take a look at Pedestal's 
other notable features 
.

Hope this helps!  Reach out with any other questions you may have.

Regards,
Paul

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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Alan Moore]

I'll second Paul's comments and raise you two:

1) Depending on your app's use cases, speed going forward will be gained 
primarily from parallelism. I think Clojure has a better story there than Go 
but that is just my opinion.

2) It is very hard to fight against cultural bias against the JVM. I work in 
embedded systems where anything but C/C++ (or Lua, Python) is taboo. Your best 
bet is to "Go" with their momentum and when they run into a roadblock in Go 
(probably something related to mutability/locks in the face of heavy load), 
give a shot at the same problem with Clojure.

Obviously this has to be done in a non-intrusive way (on the other end of a 
socket) but will give you a chance to prove Clojure and the JVM can handle the 
job. Unfortunately your company won't gain the other benefits of Clojure beyond 
just performance (e.g. clarity, simplicity, etc.) because the rest of the code 
base will be in Go but... clearly that ship has already sailed.

Good luck! Let us know how things turn out.

Alan

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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Alan Moore]

One more thing: if you are truly stuck with Go you can still adopt
functional patterns, style and data structures to good effect. Just because
the opening paren is on the wrong side of the function name doesn't mean
you can't find (or write?) an immutable data structure library for Go and
promote functional programming ideas within your team.

Here is are some simple examples from C++ (from one of the authors of the D
language):

http://bartoszmilewski.com/2014/06/09/the-functional-revolution-in-c
http://bartoszmilewski.com/2013/11/25/functional-data-structures-in-c-trees
https://github.com/BartoszMilewski/Okasaki

I'm pretty sure you could port these or some other implementation to Go
fairly easily - YMMV.

Alan

On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 7:18 PM, Alan Moore 
wrote:

> I'll second Paul's comments and raise you two:
>
> 1) Depending on your app's use cases, speed going forward will be gained
> primarily from parallelism. I think Clojure has a better story there than
> Go but that is just my opinion.
>
> 2) It is very hard to fight against cultural bias against the JVM. I work
> in embedded systems where anything but C/C++ (or Lua, Python) is taboo.
> Your best bet is to "Go" with their momentum and when they run into a
> roadblock in Go (probably something related to mutability/locks in the face
> of heavy load), give a shot at the same problem with Clojure.
>
> Obviously this has to be done in a non-intrusive way (on the other end of
> a socket) but will give you a chance to prove Clojure and the JVM can
> handle the job. Unfortunately your company won't gain the other benefits of
> Clojure beyond just performance (e.g. clarity, simplicity, etc.) because
> the rest of the code base will be in Go but... clearly that ship has
> already sailed.
>
> Good luck! Let us know how things turn out.
>
> Alan
>
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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Thomas Heller]

Hey,

this might not be too relevant to your project but since you said "web 
project" it might be.

I cannot speak for Go but Clojure is "fast enough". I went from Ruby to 
Clojure in one app and the difference was huge (150ms-ish -> 10ms-ish). I'm 
actually somewhat of a performance junkie and even got most Clojure numbers 
down to 2ms but NONE OF IT MATTERED! At the time of transition most of the 
frontend was still a large ball of jQuery-sphagetti and absolutely no 
proper HTTP caching config in the backend. While the initial request got 
faster we were still looking at average page load times of 3+ seconds. When 
I started rewriting all of the speed related stuff in the frontend the 
performance gains were huge, it more than halved the average page load time 
which had a far greater impact overall than the choice of programming 
language in the backend.

None of these techniques are specific to any programming language. What had 
the biggest impact for me was that in Clojure you are just writing 
Clojure(Script). You don't have to switch between 2 languages for the 
backend/frontend and get some of the most amazing tools (Closure Compiler) 
for "free". When it comes to raw speed Clojure and Go will probably produce 
rather similar numbers, but for me Clojure definitely has the better 
development story. (Disclaimer: I actually don't know anything about Go 
frontend story.) 

I don't care much for micro benchmarks in any language and you should not 
make decisions based on them. Look at the whole stack. The initial response 
time for a "hello world" request will never properly reflect your 
production app. In the end all that matters is your code, it won't be fast 
just because it is Go and not a JVM.

Just my 2 cents,
/thomas





On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 9:44:48 PM UTC+2, Alan Thompson wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm about to start a new web project and they are thinking about using Go 
> (golang) instead of a JVM (preferably Clojure) based approach.  The idea is 
> "BARE METAL SPEED!!!", but I really think the network and DB will be the 
> bottlenecks, not Clojure vs Go.
>
> Is anybody out there aware of any speed comparisons using Clojure/Pedestal 
> and/or Go?  I'm thinking basic measurements like connections/sec, latency, 
> simultaneous users, etc.
>
> Thanks,
> Alan
>

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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Alan Thompson]

P.S.  I have seen the results at
https://github.com/ptaoussanis/clojure-web-server-benchmarks  although I'm
not sure exactly how to interpret them w.r.t. "keepalive" and the "errors"
graph.  Also, the plotted results don't seem to include latency.
Alan

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 12:45 PM, Alan Thompson  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm about to start a new web project and they are thinking about using Go
> (golang) instead of a JVM (preferably Clojure) based approach.  The idea is
> "BARE METAL SPEED!!!", but I really think the network and DB will be the
> bottlenecks, not Clojure vs Go.
>
> Is anybody out there aware of any speed comparisons using Clojure/Pedestal
> and/or Go?  I'm thinking basic measurements like connections/sec, latency,
> simultaneous users, etc.
>
> Thanks,
> Alan
>
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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[James Reeves]

There's the TechEmpower benchmarks at:
https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks

Interestingly, Clojure is currently ahead of Go in the single and multiple
database query benchmarks.

- James

On 13 September 2015 at 21:44, Alan Thompson  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm about to start a new web project and they are thinking about using Go
> (golang) instead of a JVM (preferably Clojure) based approach.  The idea is
> "BARE METAL SPEED!!!", but I really think the network and DB will be the
> bottlenecks, not Clojure vs Go.
>
> Is anybody out there aware of any speed comparisons using Clojure/Pedestal
> and/or Go?  I'm thinking basic measurements like connections/sec, latency,
> simultaneous users, etc.
>
> Thanks,
> Alan
>
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Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Alan Thompson]

Hi,

I'm about to start a new web project and they are thinking about using Go
(golang) instead of a JVM (preferably Clojure) based approach.  The idea is
"BARE METAL SPEED!!!", but I really think the network and DB will be the
bottlenecks, not Clojure vs Go.

Is anybody out there aware of any speed comparisons using Clojure/Pedestal
and/or Go?  I'm thinking basic measurements like connections/sec, latency,
simultaneous users, etc.

Thanks,
Alan

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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Max Countryman]

Hi,

I'd love to see some discussion about this as well: I've struggled to justify 
the JVM in a production environment that's dominated by Go. My experience with 
my team has been that they are very unwilling to use the JVM and will go to 
great lengths to avoid it. The argument seems to be that Go produces light, 
extremely fast binaries, and has phenomenal networking libraries built into the 
standard lib, making it ideal for writing server-side components that may 
handle large amounts of data and need to scale horizontally. Despite my 
attempts to have members of my team checkout Clojure the final decision has 
always been to use Go instead. I'm personally a bit concerned that Go has 
started to become the replacement for Java and that the relevance of the JVM 
may be declining. It would be great to see some counterpoints to Go vis-à-vis 
Clojure and the JVM. 


Max



Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 13, 2015, at 12:44, Alan Thompson  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm about to start a new web project and they are thinking about using Go 
> (golang) instead of a JVM (preferably Clojure) based approach.  The idea is 
> "BARE METAL SPEED!!!", but I really think the network and DB will be the 
> bottlenecks, not Clojure vs Go.
> 
> Is anybody out there aware of any speed comparisons using Clojure/Pedestal 
> and/or Go?  I'm thinking basic measurements like connections/sec, latency, 
> simultaneous users, etc.
> 
> Thanks,
> Alan
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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Rui Paulo]

On Sun, 2015-09-13 at 12:44 -0700, Alan Thompson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm about to start a new web project and they are thinking about 
> using Go (golang) instead of a JVM (preferably Clojure) based 
> approach.  The idea is "BARE METAL SPEED!!!", but I really think the 
> network and DB will be the bottlenecks, not Clojure vs Go.

Depends a lot on the application code, doesn't it?

This might be of some interest to you, but it doesn't really compare
any JVM language:

https://blog.repustate.com/migrating-entire-api-go-python/

-- 
Rui Paulo

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Re: Clojure/Pedestal vs Go

[Christian Weilbach]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

> I'm about to start a new web project and they are thinking about
> using Go (golang) instead of a JVM (preferably Clojure) based
> approach.  The idea is "BARE METAL SPEED!!!", but I really think
> the network and DB will be the bottlenecks, not Clojure vs Go.

You might also be interested in
http://docs.paralleluniverse.co/pulsar/ The go take on CSP is limited
when you really want to scale, while having an actor Erlang-like model
can also give you benefits, so in Clojure (or on the JVM), you can
evolve your application differently, while go basically has one
(well-done, but fairly primitive, e.g. error handling) concurrency
concept baked into the language semantics. I haven't used go myself
though and I guess best would be a small prototype application both in
go and Clojure + some experiments. It would be nice if you publish the
results somewhere and ping back.

> 
> Is anybody out there aware of any speed comparisons using
> Clojure/Pedestal and/or Go?  I'm thinking basic measurements like
> connections/sec, latency, simultaneous users, etc.
> 
> Thanks, Alan
> 

Christian
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