Re: rand-nth on empty collections

[Mark Engelberg]

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 12:14 PM, Mark Engelberg 
wrote:

> I also think it makes perfect sense for rand-nth to throw an error on an
> empty collection.  That's because the first step is it needs to generate a
> random number between 0 and the length of the collection (0), which is
> impossible.  So it should throw an error.  Note that it is the *random
> generation of the index*, not the nth that conceptually is throwing the
> error.
>

To be clear, when I say that nth "conceptually is throwing the error", I
just mean that's how I rationalize Clojure's behavior.  That's not really
what's going on.  (rand-int 0) returns 0 (which it probably shouldn't,
given that the input is meant to be an exclusive upper bound).  So in fact,
the error is thrown by clojure.lang.RT.nthFrom, which is surprising.

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Re: rand-nth on empty collections

[Mark Engelberg]

To me, the current behavior of nth makes sense because I know that the way
you traditionally write nth on a seq / linked list is to call rest n times
and then call first.  Since Clojure's rest and first on nil (or the empty
list) return nil, then I would expect nth to return nil when called on an
empty sequence for any n.  In other words, the behavior of nth makes
complete sense in the context of first and rest returning nil (which is
different from the philosophy of languages like Scheme, but is a feature
people get along with just fine in Clojure).

I also think it makes perfect sense for rand-nth to throw an error on an
empty collection.  That's because the first step is it needs to generate a
random number between 0 and the length of the collection (0), which is
impossible.  So it should throw an error.  Note that it is the *random
generation of the index*, not the nth that conceptually is throwing the
error.

To me, the only weird part is that rand-nth doesn't throw an error on nil.
In this context, I expect nil to be treated as an empty sequence.

Clojure has other inconsistencies relating to nil, so I wouldn't generally
make assumptions rand-nth's handling of nil in my code, but it's pretty
easy to write your code in such a way that you are using `seq`-ified linked
lists, and then later make some change so that things are getting passed
around before `seq` has been called on them, which would cause rand-nth to
break.  So this inconsistency is not ideal.

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Re: rand-nth on empty collections

['Jan-Paul Bultmann' via Clojure]

Throwing an exception is probably the right thing to do if it's supposed to 
closely model the behavior of `nth`, but it wonder if it's the most usefull 
behavior in practice.
I would guess that it introduces `not-empty` checks everywhere, instead of only 
for the cases where you want to be shure that the nil returned is actually an 
element of the collection.

cheers Jan

> On 30 Sep 2015, at 20:18, Mark Engelberg  wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 12:14 PM, Mark Engelberg  
>> wrote:
>> I also think it makes perfect sense for rand-nth to throw an error on an 
>> empty collection.  That's because the first step is it needs to generate a 
>> random number between 0 and the length of the collection (0), which is 
>> impossible.  So it should throw an error.  Note that it is the *random 
>> generation of the index*, not the nth that conceptually is throwing the 
>> error.
> 
> To be clear, when I say that nth "conceptually is throwing the error", I just 
> mean that's how I rationalize Clojure's behavior.  That's not really what's 
> going on.  (rand-int 0) returns 0 (which it probably shouldn't, given that 
> the input is meant to be an exclusive upper bound).  So in fact, the error is 
> thrown by clojure.lang.RT.nthFrom, which is surprising.
> 
>  
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rand-nth on empty collections

[Marc O'Morain]

Hi all,

I was surprised by the fact that rand-nth thrown when called on an empty
collection - see http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-925

This behaviour is strange, since passing nil to rand-nth returns nil,
whereas in my experience, other Clojure functions treat nil and empty
collections in the same way (compare with next/rest/first, etc).

http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-925 was marked as Completed without
comment – is this the intended behaviour? If so, would you accept a patch
to update the docstring to make it clear that the function will throw an
exception when passed an empty collection?

Thanks,

Marc

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Re: rand-nth on empty collections

[Marc O'Morain]

I think Mailbox app might have messed with the quoting in my last reply. I hope 
it makes sense. 




I'm not suggesting that the function be changed - Clojure's API compatibility 
between versions is amazing and a fine example of great engineering. 




Reading other people's input on this thread has made it clear to my what I find 
surprising - rand-nth does not behave like `first` when called on an empty 
collection, and in my mind asking for the first element of a sequence and 
asking for a random element of that sequence are similar operations. 




I do see the point of view that nth throws on out-of-bounds access, so rand-nth 
should too, but in that case I would expect rand-nth to throw too. 




I would like to see that subtlety mentioned in the doc string. 




Thanks Alex & all!

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Alex Miller  wrote:

> rand-nth cannot return a random element if there are no elements to return, 
> so I do not find this surprising. Returning nil would be an invalid answer 
> in my opinion.
> The rand-nth doc string implies that rand-nth will inherit the semantics of 
> nth for the specified collection. nth will generally throw on an invalid 
> index (and all indexes are invalid for an empty collection).
> For nil, the docstring for nth does not mention nil explicitly, so I would 
> treat this as undefined behavior unless you consider it as a degenerate 
> sequence. 
> The code (in RT.nthFrom()) explicitly handles this case and effectively 
> treats nil as an infinite indexed source of nils, rather than as an empty 
> sequence. In my own opinion (but maybe not Rich's), it seems to make more 
> sense to take the sequence interpretation and say that on nil, nth should 
> throw instead.
> So that might be a valid ticket. I'm not sure what, if any, negative 
> consequences would arise out of existing uses of nth that rely on this 
> behavior though. Given the number of things built on nth, it may be 
> impossible to change this even if it made sense to.
> Alex
>  
> On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 6:38:49 AM UTC-5, Marc O'Morain wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was surprised by the fact that rand-nth thrown when called on an empty 
>> collection - see http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-925 
>> 
>>
>> This behaviour is strange, since passing nil to rand-nth returns nil, 
>> whereas in my experience, other Clojure functions treat nil and empty 
>> collections in the same way (compare with next/rest/first, etc).
>>
>> http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-925 was marked as Completed 
>> without comment – is this the intended behaviour? If so, would you accept a 
>> patch to update the docstring to make it clear that the function will throw 
>> an exception when passed an empty collection?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Marc
>>
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Re: rand-nth on empty collections

[Marc O'Morain]

I also think it makes perfect sense for rand-nth to throw an error on an empty 
collection.  That's because the first step is it needs to generate a random 
number between 0 and the length of the collection (0), which is impossible.  So 
it should throw an error.  Note that it is the *random generation of the 
index*, not the nth that conceptually is throwing the error.







​

​Throwing an exception doesn't feel like idiomatic Clojure to me. In my 
experience Clojure throws on type errors, and returns nil to indicate failure 
or absence. 

​

​first and next don't throw when you ask for non-existing elements of a 
collection - they return nil to indicate absense. Similarly get and get-in 
return nil rather than throwing when the provided key is not associated with a 
value in an associative data structure. 




​That's why I found it odd that rand-nth throws.

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Re: rand-nth on empty collections

[Mikera]

Personally I think nth is broken and should throw an exception when passed 
nil (which should be interpreted as an empty sequence)

=> (nth nil 10)
nil
=> (nth '() 10)
IndexOutOfBoundsException   clojure.lang.RT.nthFrom (RT.java:885)
=> (nth [] 10)
IndexOutOfBoundsException   clojure.lang.PersistentVector.arrayFor 
(PersistentVector.java:157)

We want to throw exceptions with invalid arguments surely? Otherwise errors 
just propagate and it gets harder to trace root causes of bugs.

Following this logic, rand-nth should throw an exception in all these cases 
too.


On Thursday, 1 October 2015 06:11:36 UTC+8, Marc O'Morain wrote:
>
> I think Mailbox app might have messed with the quoting in my last reply. I 
> hope it makes sense. 
>
> I'm not suggesting that the function be changed - Clojure's API 
> compatibility between versions is amazing and a fine example of great 
> engineering. 
>
> Reading other people's input on this thread has made it clear to my what I 
> find surprising - rand-nth does not behave like `first` when called on an 
> empty collection, and in my mind asking for the first element of a sequence 
> and asking for a random element of that sequence are similar operations. 
>
> I do see the point of view that nth throws on out-of-bounds access, so 
> rand-nth should too, but in that case I would expect rand-nth to throw too. 
>
> I would like to see that subtlety mentioned in the doc string. 
>
> Thanks Alex & all!
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Alex Miller  > wrote:
>
>> rand-nth cannot return a random element if there are no elements to 
>> return, so I do not find this surprising. Returning nil would be an invalid 
>> answer in my opinion.
>>
>> The rand-nth doc string implies that rand-nth will inherit the semantics 
>> of nth for the specified collection. nth will generally throw on an invalid 
>> index (and all indexes are invalid for an empty collection).
>>
>> For nil, the docstring for nth does not mention nil explicitly, so I 
>> would treat this as undefined behavior unless you consider it as a 
>> degenerate sequence. 
>>
>> The code (in RT.nthFrom()) explicitly handles this case and effectively 
>> treats nil as an infinite indexed source of nils, rather than as an empty 
>> sequence. In my own opinion (but maybe not Rich's), it seems to make more 
>> sense to take the sequence interpretation and say that on nil, nth should 
>> throw instead.
>>
>> So that might be a valid ticket. I'm not sure what, if any, negative 
>> consequences would arise out of existing uses of nth that rely on this 
>> behavior though. Given the number of things built on nth, it may be 
>> impossible to change this even if it made sense to.
>>
>> Alex
>>  
>> On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 6:38:49 AM UTC-5, Marc O'Morain wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I was surprised by the fact that rand-nth thrown when called on an empty 
>>> collection - see http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-925 
>>> 
>>>
>>> This behaviour is strange, since passing nil to rand-nth returns nil, 
>>> whereas in my experience, other Clojure functions treat nil and empty 
>>> collections in the same way (compare with next/rest/first, etc).
>>>
>>> http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-925 was marked as Completed 
>>> without comment – is this the intended behaviour? If so, would you accept a 
>>> patch to update the docstring to make it clear that the function will throw 
>>> an exception when passed an empty collection?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
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>
>

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Re: rand-nth on empty collections

[Alex Miller]

Just for kicks, I built with nth throwing an exception on nil instead of 
returning nil and all tests passed, so that's at least promising that 
changing nth on nil would be possible.

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 9:14:22 AM UTC-5, Alex Miller wrote:
>
> rand-nth cannot return a random element if there are no elements to 
> return, so I do not find this surprising. Returning nil would be an invalid 
> answer in my opinion.
>
> The rand-nth doc string implies that rand-nth will inherit the semantics 
> of nth for the specified collection. nth will generally throw on an invalid 
> index (and all indexes are invalid for an empty collection).
>
> For nil, the docstring for nth does not mention nil explicitly, so I would 
> treat this as undefined behavior unless you consider it as a degenerate 
> sequence. 
>
> The code (in RT.nthFrom()) explicitly handles this case and effectively 
> treats nil as an infinite indexed source of nils, rather than as an empty 
> sequence. In my own opinion (but maybe not Rich's), it seems to make more 
> sense to take the sequence interpretation and say that on nil, nth should 
> throw instead.
>
> So that might be a valid ticket. I'm not sure what, if any, negative 
> consequences would arise out of existing uses of nth that rely on this 
> behavior though. Given the number of things built on nth, it may be 
> impossible to change this even if it made sense to.
>
> Alex
>
>>

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Re: rand-nth on empty collections

[Alex Miller]

rand-nth cannot return a random element if there are no elements to return, 
so I do not find this surprising. Returning nil would be an invalid answer 
in my opinion.

The rand-nth doc string implies that rand-nth will inherit the semantics of 
nth for the specified collection. nth will generally throw on an invalid 
index (and all indexes are invalid for an empty collection).

For nil, the docstring for nth does not mention nil explicitly, so I would 
treat this as undefined behavior unless you consider it as a degenerate 
sequence. 

The code (in RT.nthFrom()) explicitly handles this case and effectively 
treats nil as an infinite indexed source of nils, rather than as an empty 
sequence. In my own opinion (but maybe not Rich's), it seems to make more 
sense to take the sequence interpretation and say that on nil, nth should 
throw instead.

So that might be a valid ticket. I'm not sure what, if any, negative 
consequences would arise out of existing uses of nth that rely on this 
behavior though. Given the number of things built on nth, it may be 
impossible to change this even if it made sense to.

Alex
 
On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 6:38:49 AM UTC-5, Marc O'Morain wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I was surprised by the fact that rand-nth thrown when called on an empty 
> collection - see http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-925 
> 
>
> This behaviour is strange, since passing nil to rand-nth returns nil, 
> whereas in my experience, other Clojure functions treat nil and empty 
> collections in the same way (compare with next/rest/first, etc).
>
> http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-925 was marked as Completed 
> without comment – is this the intended behaviour? If so, would you accept a 
> patch to update the docstring to make it clear that the function will throw 
> an exception when passed an empty collection?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marc
>

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