[ClojureScript] Re: Let's make ClojureScript more approachable for beginners

[jdavid.e...@gmail.com]

Shameless self-promotion: here is a thing I did some years ago - 
http://langintro.com/cljsbook/


On Thursday, January 21, 2021 at 1:39:50 AM UTC-8 vie...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hello!
>
> I totally agree that allowing beginners to learn ClojureScript and 
> experimenting with code in the browser bring a huge benefit and  will 
> increase ClojureScript usage.
>
> Klipse addresses this challenge by providing:
> - An online ClojureScript repl: http://app.klipse.tech/
> - A way to embed ClojureScript running snippet in a web page (blog posts, 
> documentation etc..)
>
> Several online ClojureScript tutorials leverage Klipse. Here are some 
> examples:
>
>1. Reagent deep dive 
>http://timothypratley.blogspot.com/2017/01/reagent-deep-dive-part-1.html
>2. How to write macros 
>https://blog.klipse.tech/clojure/2016/05/05/macro-tutorial-3.html
>
> On Friday, 9 October 2020 at 17:24:12 UTC+3 hexagonr...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hi. I am new to ClojureScript. Here is my story so far. It highlights the 
>> unnecessary hurdles a new ClojureScript programmer has to overcome. I hope 
>> this helps make the ClojureScript better for everyone.
>>
>> After reading SICP 
>> 
>>  
>> and "On Lisp " I am quite excited 
>> about lisp especially about lisp macros. The web is a very attractive 
>> platform to develop for. One day I set out to find an intersection of the 
>> two. A quick search returned a number of options and ClojureScript was one 
>> of them.
>>
>> # Finding a tutorial
>> Every Lisp dialect is somewhat different from the rest and I had no prior 
>> experience with Clojure. How does one pick up a new programming language? I 
>> needed to find some kind of tutorial or introductory book. Something that 
>> would at the very least teach me the syntax and semantics of the language, 
>> the builtins and essential parts of the standard library. Ideally it would 
>> also teach me some common idioms. I tried to find a link to such a 
>> book/tutorial on the https://clojurescript.org website, but failed. 
>> There is a prominently displayed "Get Started!" button, but it currently 
>> points to a page that teaches you how to install ClojureScript and, for 
>> some reason, how to do "Production Builds", but does not even cover the 
>> entire syntax of ClojureScript. Nor does it contain links to more complete 
>> introductory materials. I did eventually discover the amazing ClojureScript 
>> Unraveled . Only 
>> later did I find out that the link was there all along, but it was buried 
>> where I would have never guessed to look: the "community" tab of the 
>> https://clojurescript.org website. When I think "tutorial" I don't think 
>> "community", when I read "community" I don't expect to find a tutorial 
>> there.
>>
>> Some examples for comparison:
>> - https://elm-lang.org has a big and obvious "Tutorial" button on its 
>> homepage
>> - https://www.haskell.org has an interactive tutorial built into its 
>> homepage. After you chew through it, the tutorial suggests you look in the 
>> "Documentation" section of the website that contains links to books, 
>> courses, tutorials etc.
>>
>> # Finding an online REPL
>> OK I found a tutorial. To follow it I want to be able to actually type 
>> some code and see it print some output. I personally find it more 
>> convenient at this stage of learning a new language to use an online REPL 
>> rather than trying to figure out how to install the interpreter or the 
>> compiler locally. Even if installing is as simple as downloading and 
>> unpacking a tar or executing a bash script I still prefer an online REPL. I 
>> again struggled to find a link to an online REPL from the 
>> https://clojurescript.org website because it was also hidden on the 
>> "Community" tab. Also: out of the 3 REPLs advertised there only one (
>> https://clojurescript.io) has an HTTPS version.
>>
>> Some examples for comparison:
>> - https://www.python.org has a REPL built into its homepage
>> - https://elm-lang.org has a big and obvious "Try" button
>>
>> # Installing the compiler
>> OK I learned a bit of Clojure, I experimented a bit now I want to start 
>> developing in it. To do that I need to install the compiler on my machine. 
>> At this point I'm looking for links that say "install" or "download". Where 
>> do I find the installation instructions? "Get Started!", obviously.
>>
>> # The REPL hangs on Linux
>> A little bit about my system: Linux+Firefox. It turns out that there is a 
>> known bug that causes the REPL to hang under this configuration. I was 
>> following the "Get Started!" tutorial. When I executed "clj --main 
>> cljs.main --compile hello-world.core --repl" I expected to see "Hello 
>> world!" printed in my terminal, but instead I saw something that looked 
>> like a REPL prompt but was completely 

[ClojureScript] Re: Let's make ClojureScript more approachable for beginners

[Yehonathan Sharvit]

Hello!

I totally agree that allowing beginners to learn ClojureScript and 
experimenting with code in the browser bring a huge benefit and  will 
increase ClojureScript usage.

Klipse addresses this challenge by providing:
- An online ClojureScript repl: http://app.klipse.tech/
- A way to embed ClojureScript running snippet in a web page (blog posts, 
documentation etc..)

Several online ClojureScript tutorials leverage Klipse. Here are some 
examples:

   1. Reagent deep 
   dive http://timothypratley.blogspot.com/2017/01/reagent-deep-dive-part-1.html
   2. How to write 
   macros https://blog.klipse.tech/clojure/2016/05/05/macro-tutorial-3.html

On Friday, 9 October 2020 at 17:24:12 UTC+3 hexagonr...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi. I am new to ClojureScript. Here is my story so far. It highlights the 
> unnecessary hurdles a new ClojureScript programmer has to overcome. I hope 
> this helps make the ClojureScript better for everyone.
>
> After reading SICP 
> 
>  
> and "On Lisp " I am quite excited 
> about lisp especially about lisp macros. The web is a very attractive 
> platform to develop for. One day I set out to find an intersection of the 
> two. A quick search returned a number of options and ClojureScript was one 
> of them.
>
> # Finding a tutorial
> Every Lisp dialect is somewhat different from the rest and I had no prior 
> experience with Clojure. How does one pick up a new programming language? I 
> needed to find some kind of tutorial or introductory book. Something that 
> would at the very least teach me the syntax and semantics of the language, 
> the builtins and essential parts of the standard library. Ideally it would 
> also teach me some common idioms. I tried to find a link to such a 
> book/tutorial on the https://clojurescript.org website, but failed. There 
> is a prominently displayed "Get Started!" button, but it currently points 
> to a page that teaches you how to install ClojureScript and, for some 
> reason, how to do "Production Builds", but does not even cover the entire 
> syntax of ClojureScript. Nor does it contain links to more complete 
> introductory materials. I did eventually discover the amazing ClojureScript 
> Unraveled . Only 
> later did I find out that the link was there all along, but it was buried 
> where I would have never guessed to look: the "community" tab of the 
> https://clojurescript.org website. When I think "tutorial" I don't think 
> "community", when I read "community" I don't expect to find a tutorial 
> there.
>
> Some examples for comparison:
> - https://elm-lang.org has a big and obvious "Tutorial" button on its 
> homepage
> - https://www.haskell.org has an interactive tutorial built into its 
> homepage. After you chew through it, the tutorial suggests you look in the 
> "Documentation" section of the website that contains links to books, 
> courses, tutorials etc.
>
> # Finding an online REPL
> OK I found a tutorial. To follow it I want to be able to actually type 
> some code and see it print some output. I personally find it more 
> convenient at this stage of learning a new language to use an online REPL 
> rather than trying to figure out how to install the interpreter or the 
> compiler locally. Even if installing is as simple as downloading and 
> unpacking a tar or executing a bash script I still prefer an online REPL. I 
> again struggled to find a link to an online REPL from the 
> https://clojurescript.org website because it was also hidden on the 
> "Community" tab. Also: out of the 3 REPLs advertised there only one (
> https://clojurescript.io) has an HTTPS version.
>
> Some examples for comparison:
> - https://www.python.org has a REPL built into its homepage
> - https://elm-lang.org has a big and obvious "Try" button
>
> # Installing the compiler
> OK I learned a bit of Clojure, I experimented a bit now I want to start 
> developing in it. To do that I need to install the compiler on my machine. 
> At this point I'm looking for links that say "install" or "download". Where 
> do I find the installation instructions? "Get Started!", obviously.
>
> # The REPL hangs on Linux
> A little bit about my system: Linux+Firefox. It turns out that there is a 
> known bug that causes the REPL to hang under this configuration. I was 
> following the "Get Started!" tutorial. When I executed "clj --main 
> cljs.main --compile hello-world.core --repl" I expected to see "Hello 
> world!" printed in my terminal, but instead I saw something that looked 
> like a REPL prompt but was completely unresponsive. The bug is even 
> documented in the tutorial, but in a manner that took me an embarrassingly 
> long time to find. Usually when a step in a tutorial fails the steps that 
> follow it are irrelevant until you can figure out what went wrong so I did 
> not continue to read 

[ClojureScript] Re: Let's make ClojureScript more approachable for beginners

['Alex Miller' via ClojureScript]

I actually spent some time looking at this last month for whether to 
include in Clojure 1.10.2. While the patch does "work", I am somewhat 
undecided still about whether it's the best approach so I decided to wait 
until 1.11 to consider it more, but it is high on the list. Feel free to 
vote at 
https://ask.clojure.org/index.php/751/clojure-java-shell-sh-hangs-calling-xdg-open.

BTW, it's high on my list because it has votes on https://ask.clojure.org - 
please make your priorities known there, we're looking at vote counts!  

Alex

On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 10:37:40 AM UTC-5 hexagonr...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> > The REPL hangs on Linux
>
> The patch for this bug have been available for over a year (
> https://clojure.atlassian.net/browse/CLJ-2493). I hope the maintainers 
> eventually get around to merging it.
>

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[ClojureScript] Re: Let's make ClojureScript more approachable for beginners

[Andrey Bienkowski]

> The REPL hangs on Linux

The patch for this bug have been available for over a year (
https://clojure.atlassian.net/browse/CLJ-2493). I hope the maintainers 
eventually get around to merging it.

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[ClojureScript] Re: Let's make ClojureScript more approachable for beginners

[Sergei Udris]

Did wonder about Reference/Guides myself. But at the end of the day, it's 
such a tiny detail, not a problem, the search engine serves the right page 
anyway. 
As of now, I'm not a contributor, only a mere user of the clojure 
ecosystem. But a happy one - given what a treat and gift this super 
powerful abstraction is.
Not going to pile up wisdom, just want to simply say: we are gifted an 
immutable lisp that is one language and reaches everywhere java and js do. 
And we are given core.async. So that outweighs any kind of learning 
curve/setup IMHO.
But yes, it's a bit less detailed. Well, I can only speak for myself - and 
I'm not complaining, because this kind of work (guides/tutorials) is 
tedious and ungrateful. And we are always kind of free to contribute/create 
nayhting that would make "getting into clojure" more cakewalk-y.
And another thought/observation: usually (and in my case) people discover 
clojure, when they are desperate, frustrated. And that happens after we - 
programmers -  go through some issues. Simply put, when we get to clojure, 
we already know java/js ecosystems/tools and are less dependent on a smooth 
entry point. But again, it does not mean things should not improve. Just an 
observation.

* [Deleted previous post to remove unnecessary profanity (one word change). 
Sorry, felt need to correct myself if possible. Will be more focused next 
time]

On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 5:24:12 PM UTC+3 hexagonr...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi. I am new to ClojureScript. Here is my story so far. It highlights the 
> unnecessary hurdles a new ClojureScript programmer has to overcome. I hope 
> this helps make the ClojureScript better for everyone.
>
> After reading SICP 
> 
>  
> and "On Lisp " I am quite excited 
> about lisp especially about lisp macros. The web is a very attractive 
> platform to develop for. One day I set out to find an intersection of the 
> two. A quick search returned a number of options and ClojureScript was one 
> of them.
>
> # Finding a tutorial
> Every Lisp dialect is somewhat different from the rest and I had no prior 
> experience with Clojure. How does one pick up a new programming language? I 
> needed to find some kind of tutorial or introductory book. Something that 
> would at the very least teach me the syntax and semantics of the language, 
> the builtins and essential parts of the standard library. Ideally it would 
> also teach me some common idioms. I tried to find a link to such a 
> book/tutorial on the https://clojurescript.org website, but failed. There 
> is a prominently displayed "Get Started!" button, but it currently points 
> to a page that teaches you how to install ClojureScript and, for some 
> reason, how to do "Production Builds", but does not even cover the entire 
> syntax of ClojureScript. Nor does it contain links to more complete 
> introductory materials. I did eventually discover the amazing ClojureScript 
> Unraveled . Only 
> later did I find out that the link was there all along, but it was buried 
> where I would have never guessed to look: the "community" tab of the 
> https://clojurescript.org website. When I think "tutorial" I don't think 
> "community", when I read "community" I don't expect to find a tutorial 
> there.
>
> Some examples for comparison:
> - https://elm-lang.org has a big and obvious "Tutorial" button on its 
> homepage
> - https://www.haskell.org has an interactive tutorial built into its 
> homepage. After you chew through it, the tutorial suggests you look in the 
> "Documentation" section of the website that contains links to books, 
> courses, tutorials etc.
>
> # Finding an online REPL
> OK I found a tutorial. To follow it I want to be able to actually type 
> some code and see it print some output. I personally find it more 
> convenient at this stage of learning a new language to use an online REPL 
> rather than trying to figure out how to install the interpreter or the 
> compiler locally. Even if installing is as simple as downloading and 
> unpacking a tar or executing a bash script I still prefer an online REPL. I 
> again struggled to find a link to an online REPL from the 
> https://clojurescript.org website because it was also hidden on the 
> "Community" tab. Also: out of the 3 REPLs advertised there only one (
> https://clojurescript.io) has an HTTPS version.
>
> Some examples for comparison:
> - https://www.python.org has a REPL built into its homepage
> - https://elm-lang.org has a big and obvious "Try" button
>
> # Installing the compiler
> OK I learned a bit of Clojure, I experimented a bit now I want to start 
> developing in it. To do that I need to install the compiler on my machine. 
> At this point I'm looking for links that say "install" or "download". Where 
> do I find the installation instructions? "Get