Re: Stus-List Question: Radar reflector vs. active radar

[David Castor via CnC-List]

Check the Practical Sailor archives.  They tested radar reflectors and
found none of them were really very effective, IIRC.  But better than
nothing.  Also, even if your active radar did help make you more visible,
you'd have to have it on.

On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 1:29 AM, Damian Greene via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> One of the fellow members of our UK yacht club (Reading Offshore Sailing
> Club) has a funny story about entering Le Havre in fog with their active
> radar reflector. Based on the size of their echo, the other traffic was
> expecting a much bigger ship entering the channel, and had cleared out of
> the way.
>
> On Friday, February 2, 2018, 6:23:21 PM GMT, Frederick G Street via
> CnC-List  wrote:
>
>
> That’s one of the more weird things I’ve heard… radars are specifically
> designed to try to filter out any signals not their own.
>
> Other boats might have something like the CARD system aboard to pick up
> other vessels’ radar:
>
> http://nordkyndesign.com/collision-avoidance-at-sea-ais-alarm-project/
>
> But those systems haven’t been available new for a decade.  The other type
> of device that you could have on your vessel to help other radar-equipped
> vessels see you better would be an active radar target augmentation system
> like the Echo-Max:
>
> https://www.echomax.co.uk/radar-target-enhancers-x-band-dual-band.html
>
> Or a Search and Rescue Transponder (SART):
>
> http://www.offshoreblue.com/safety/sart.php
>
>
> — Fred
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
>
> On Feb 2, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Damian Greene via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Here's a question for your collective wisdom:
>
> We regularly have fog here in Maine, and my normal practice is to hoist a
> Davis emergency radar reflector in the shrouds (so I hopefully will not get
> run over by a lobster boat). So this year I decided to get the yard to
> mount an EchoMax reflector on the mast, and be better prepared.
>
> However, reviewing my work-list with the yard maintenance manager
> yesterday, he asked why I was doing this, as I have radar, and the signal
> from my radome would light up on other boats' radar better than a reflector.
>
> That's something I've never heard before, so I told him I would
> investigate and get back on that. Frankly, this does not make a lot of
> sense - why would people bother with radar reflectors - but he has more
> than 20 years' experience with Hinckley and others.
>
> I'd like a definitive answer (Fred?) to resolve this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Damian Greene
>
> ex C 34 Ghost
> now Sabre 38 Freefall
> Bass Harbor, Maine
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>
___

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Re: Stus-List Question: Radar reflector vs. active radar

[Damian Greene via CnC-List]

 One of the fellow members of our UK yacht club (Reading Offshore Sailing Club) 
has a funny story about entering Le Havre in fog with their active radar 
reflector. Based on the size of their echo, the other traffic was expecting a 
much bigger ship entering the channel, and had cleared out of the way.
On Friday, February 2, 2018, 6:23:21 PM GMT, Frederick G Street via 
CnC-List  wrote:  
 
 That’s one of the more weird things I’ve heard… radars are specifically 
designed to try to filter out any signals not their own.
Other boats might have something like the CARD system aboard to pick up other 
vessels’ radar:
http://nordkyndesign.com/collision-avoidance-at-sea-ais-alarm-project/
But those systems haven’t been available new for a decade.  The other type of 
device that you could have on your vessel to help other radar-equipped vessels 
see you better would be an active radar target augmentation system like the 
Echo-Max:
https://www.echomax.co.uk/radar-target-enhancers-x-band-dual-band.html
Or a Search and Rescue Transponder (SART):
http://www.offshoreblue.com/safety/sart.php

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Feb 2, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Damian Greene via CnC-List  
wrote:
Here's a question for your collective wisdom: 
We regularly have fog here in Maine, and my normal practice is to hoist a Davis 
emergency radar reflector in the shrouds (so I hopefully will not get run over 
by a lobster boat). So this year I decided to get the yard to mount an EchoMax 
reflector on the mast, and be better prepared.
However, reviewing my work-list with the yard maintenance manager yesterday, he 
asked why I was doing this, as I have radar, and the signal from my radome 
would light up on other boats' radar better than a reflector.
That's something I've never heard before, so I told him I would investigate and 
get back on that. Frankly, this does not make a lot of sense - why would people 
bother with radar reflectors - but he has more than 20 years' experience with 
Hinckley and others.
I'd like a definitive answer (Fred?) to resolve this.

Thanks,
Damian Greene
ex C 34 Ghostnow Sabre 38 FreefallBass Harbor, Maine

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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  ___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
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Re: Stus-List Question: Radar reflector vs. active radar

[Damian Greene via CnC-List]

 Thanks all for these helpful responses, and Fred in particular. 
Damian
=
On Friday, February 2, 2018, 6:29:25 PM GMT, Joel Aronson via CnC-List 
 wrote:  
 
 FWIW, ISAF requires radar reflectors regardless whether the boat has radar.  
Even on a steel hull.
Joel
On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 wrote:

That’s one of the more weird things I’ve heard… radars are specifically 
designed to try to filter out any signals not their own.
Other boats might have something like the CARD system aboard to pick up other 
vessels’ radar:
http://nordkyndesign.com/ collision-avoidance-at-sea- ais-alarm-project/
But those systems haven’t been available new for a decade.  The other type of 
device that you could have on your vessel to help other radar-equipped vessels 
see you better would be an active radar target augmentation system like the 
Echo-Max:
https://www.echomax.co.uk/ radar-target-enhancers-x-band- dual-band.html
Or a Search and Rescue Transponder (SART):
http://www.offshoreblue.com/ safety/sart.php

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Feb 2, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Damian Greene via CnC-List  
wrote:
Here's a question for your collective wisdom: 
We regularly have fog here in Maine, and my normal practice is to hoist a Davis 
emergency radar reflector in the shrouds (so I hopefully will not get run over 
by a lobster boat). So this year I decided to get the yard to mount an EchoMax 
reflector on the mast, and be better prepared.
However, reviewing my work-list with the yard maintenance manager yesterday, he 
asked why I was doing this, as I have radar, and the signal from my radome 
would light up on other boats' radar better than a reflector.
That's something I've never heard before, so I told him I would investigate and 
get back on that. Frankly, this does not make a lot of sense - why would people 
bother with radar reflectors - but he has more than 20 years' experience with 
Hinckley and others.
I'd like a definitive answer (Fred?) to resolve this.

Thanks,
Damian Greene
ex C 34 Ghostnow Sabre 38 FreefallBass Harbor, Maine


__ _

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-- 
Joel 
301 541 8551___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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  ___

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Re: Stus-List Question: Radar reflector vs. active radar

[Gary Russell via CnC-List]

Reflection is only effective if it reflects back to the radar transmitter.
Curved surfaces don't work very well and a flat surface will only work if
it is perpendicular to the incoming signal.  That's why most radar
reflectors are 3 flat surfaces at right angles to each other.  They are
often called corner cubes or retro-reflectors and are designed to reflect
the incoming signal back to the source.  That's why stealth aircraft and
ships have no right angles.

Gary
S/V Kaylarah
'90 C 37+
East Greenwich, RI, USA

~~~_/)~~


On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 2:47 PM, Leslie Paal via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> the radar antenna is a good sized metal construction.  It will reflect.
> Also, since it is tuned to the same (about) frequencies, it can passively
> re-radiate some of the signal.
>
> Leslie.
>
> 
> On Fri, 2/2/18, Frederick G Street via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> wrote:
>
>  Subject: Re: Stus-List Question: Radar reflector vs. active radar
>  To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>  Cc: "Frederick G Street" <f...@postaudio.net>
>  Date: Friday, February 2, 2018, 10:22 AM
>
>  That’s one
>  of the more weird things I’ve heard… radars are
>  specifically designed to try to filter out any signals not
>  their own.
>  Other
>  boats might have something like the CARD system aboard to
>  pick up other vessels’ radar:
>  http://nordkyndesign.com/collision-avoidance-at-sea-ais-alarm-project/
>  But
>  those systems haven’t been available new for a decade.
>   The other type of device that you could have on your
>  vessel to help other radar-equipped vessels see you better
>  would be an active radar target augmentation system like the
>  Echo-Max:
>  https://www.echomax.co.uk/radar-target-enhancers-x-band-dual-band.html
>  Or a
>  Search and Rescue Transponder (SART):
>  http://www.offshoreblue.com/safety/sart.php
>
>  — Fred
>
>
>  Fred Street
>  -- Minneapolis
>  S/V Oceanis (1979 C
>  Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield,
>  WI   :^(
>
>
>  On Feb 2, 2018, at
>  11:42 AM, Damian Greene via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>  wrote:
>  Here's a question for your collective
>  wisdom:
>  We regularly have fog here in
>  Maine, and my normal practice is to hoist a Davis emergency
>  radar reflector in the shrouds (so I hopefully will not get
>  run over by a lobster boat). So this year I decided to get
>  the yard to mount an EchoMax reflector on the mast, and be
>  better prepared.
>  However, reviewing my
>  work-list with the yard maintenance manager yesterday, he
>  asked why I was doing this, as I have radar, and the signal
>  from my radome would light up on other boats' radar
>  better than a reflector.
>  That's something I've
>  never heard before, so I told him I would investigate and
>  get back on that. Frankly, this does not make a lot of sense
>  - why would people bother with radar reflectors - but he has
>  more than 20 years' experience with Hinckley and
>  others.
>  I'd like a definitive answer (Fred?) to resolve
>  this.
>
>  Thanks,
>  Damian Greene
>  ex C 34 Ghostnow Sabre 38 FreefallBass Harbor,
>  Maine
>  ___
>
>  Thanks everyone for supporting
>  this list with your contributions.  Each and every one is
>  greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use
>  PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>  -Inline Attachment Follows-
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Question: Radar reflector vs. active radar

[Leslie Paal via CnC-List]

the radar antenna is a good sized metal construction.  It will reflect.  Also, 
since it is tuned to the same (about) frequencies, it can passively re-radiate 
some of the signal.

Leslie.


On Fri, 2/2/18, Frederick G Street via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: Stus-List Question: Radar reflector vs. active radar
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Cc: "Frederick G Street" <f...@postaudio.net>
 Date: Friday, February 2, 2018, 10:22 AM
 
 That’s one
 of the more weird things I’ve heard… radars are
 specifically designed to try to filter out any signals not
 their own.
 Other
 boats might have something like the CARD system aboard to
 pick up other vessels’ radar:
 http://nordkyndesign.com/collision-avoidance-at-sea-ais-alarm-project/
 But
 those systems haven’t been available new for a decade.
  The other type of device that you could have on your
 vessel to help other radar-equipped vessels see you better
 would be an active radar target augmentation system like the
 Echo-Max:
 https://www.echomax.co.uk/radar-target-enhancers-x-band-dual-band.html
 Or a
 Search and Rescue Transponder (SART):
 http://www.offshoreblue.com/safety/sart.php
 
 — Fred
 
 
 Fred Street
 -- Minneapolis
 S/V Oceanis (1979 C
 Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield,
 WI   :^(
 
 
 On Feb 2, 2018, at
 11:42 AM, Damian Greene via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
 wrote:
 Here's a question for your collective
 wisdom: 
 We regularly have fog here in
 Maine, and my normal practice is to hoist a Davis emergency
 radar reflector in the shrouds (so I hopefully will not get
 run over by a lobster boat). So this year I decided to get
 the yard to mount an EchoMax reflector on the mast, and be
 better prepared.
 However, reviewing my
 work-list with the yard maintenance manager yesterday, he
 asked why I was doing this, as I have radar, and the signal
 from my radome would light up on other boats' radar
 better than a reflector.
 That's something I've
 never heard before, so I told him I would investigate and
 get back on that. Frankly, this does not make a lot of sense
 - why would people bother with radar reflectors - but he has
 more than 20 years' experience with Hinckley and
 others.
 I'd like a definitive answer (Fred?) to resolve
 this.
 
 Thanks,
 Damian Greene
 ex C 34 Ghostnow Sabre 38 FreefallBass Harbor,
 Maine
 ___
 
 Thanks everyone for supporting
 this list with your contributions.  Each and every one is
 greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use
 PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
 
 
 -Inline Attachment Follows-
 
 

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Question: Radar reflector vs. active radar

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

FWIW, ISAF requires radar reflectors regardless whether the boat has
radar.  Even on a steel hull.

Joel

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> That’s one of the more weird things I’ve heard… radars are specifically
> designed to try to filter out any signals not their own.
>
> Other boats might have something like the CARD system aboard to pick up
> other vessels’ radar:
>
> http://nordkyndesign.com/collision-avoidance-at-sea-ais-alarm-project/
>
> But those systems haven’t been available new for a decade.  The other type
> of device that you could have on your vessel to help other radar-equipped
> vessels see you better would be an active radar target augmentation system
> like the Echo-Max:
>
> https://www.echomax.co.uk/radar-target-enhancers-x-band-dual-band.html
>
> Or a Search and Rescue Transponder (SART):
>
> http://www.offshoreblue.com/safety/sart.php
>
>
> — Fred
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
>
> On Feb 2, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Damian Greene via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Here's a question for your collective wisdom:
>
> We regularly have fog here in Maine, and my normal practice is to hoist a
> Davis emergency radar reflector in the shrouds (so I hopefully will not get
> run over by a lobster boat). So this year I decided to get the yard to
> mount an EchoMax reflector on the mast, and be better prepared.
>
> However, reviewing my work-list with the yard maintenance manager
> yesterday, he asked why I was doing this, as I have radar, and the signal
> from my radome would light up on other boats' radar better than a reflector.
>
> That's something I've never heard before, so I told him I would
> investigate and get back on that. Frankly, this does not make a lot of
> sense - why would people bother with radar reflectors - but he has more
> than 20 years' experience with Hinckley and others.
>
> I'd like a definitive answer (Fred?) to resolve this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Damian Greene
>
> ex C 34 Ghost
> now Sabre 38 Freefall
> Bass Harbor, Maine
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Question: Radar reflector vs. active radar

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Some radar will interfere with some other radar sometimes. The weird lines you 
see do not show where the boat is. I have never seen this sailing, but I have 
flying. It was a series of curved dashed lines across the screen.
AIS will be 10,000x better than any kind of radar reflector to get you seen by 
other boats, but the radar reflector can’t hurt.

Joe Della Barba
Coquina
C 35 MK I


From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Damian 
Greene via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 12:42 PM
To: C List
Cc: Damian Greene
Subject: Stus-List Question: Radar reflector vs. active radar

Here's a question for your collective wisdom:

We regularly have fog here in Maine, and my normal practice is to hoist a Davis 
emergency radar reflector in the shrouds (so I hopefully will not get run over 
by a lobster boat). So this year I decided to get the yard to mount an EchoMax 
reflector on the mast, and be better prepared.

However, reviewing my work-list with the yard maintenance manager yesterday, he 
asked why I was doing this, as I have radar, and the signal from my radome 
would light up on other boats' radar better than a reflector.

That's something I've never heard before, so I told him I would investigate and 
get back on that. Frankly, this does not make a lot of sense - why would people 
bother with radar reflectors - but he has more than 20 years' experience with 
Hinckley and others.

I'd like a definitive answer (Fred?) to resolve this.

Thanks,

Damian Greene

ex C 34 Ghost
now Sabre 38 Freefall
Bass Harbor, Maine
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Question: Radar reflector vs. active radar

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

That’s one of the more weird things I’ve heard… radars are specifically 
designed to try to filter out any signals not their own.

Other boats might have something like the CARD system aboard to pick up other 
vessels’ radar:

http://nordkyndesign.com/collision-avoidance-at-sea-ais-alarm-project/ 


But those systems haven’t been available new for a decade.  The other type of 
device that you could have on your vessel to help other radar-equipped vessels 
see you better would be an active radar target augmentation system like the 
Echo-Max:

https://www.echomax.co.uk/radar-target-enhancers-x-band-dual-band.html 


Or a Search and Rescue Transponder (SART):

http://www.offshoreblue.com/safety/sart.php 



— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

> On Feb 2, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Damian Greene via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Here's a question for your collective wisdom: 
> 
> We regularly have fog here in Maine, and my normal practice is to hoist a 
> Davis emergency radar reflector in the shrouds (so I hopefully will not get 
> run over by a lobster boat). So this year I decided to get the yard to mount 
> an EchoMax reflector on the mast, and be better prepared.
> 
> However, reviewing my work-list with the yard maintenance manager yesterday, 
> he asked why I was doing this, as I have radar, and the signal from my radome 
> would light up on other boats' radar better than a reflector.
> 
> That's something I've never heard before, so I told him I would investigate 
> and get back on that. Frankly, this does not make a lot of sense - why would 
> people bother with radar reflectors - but he has more than 20 years' 
> experience with Hinckley and others.
> 
> I'd like a definitive answer (Fred?) to resolve this.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Damian Greene
> 
> ex C 34 Ghost
> now Sabre 38 Freefall
> Bass Harbor, Maine

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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