Re: Thoughts on Cocoa
Speaking as a former moderator of this list, this thread is off-topic for Cocoa-dev. This list is for TECHNICAL discussion and help. Kindly take it to reddit or wherever else the denizens of comp.sys.mac.advocacy ended up. -jcr ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on Cocoa
Well, hey, we here use Cocoa and are prepared for 64-bit as of the next couple of weeks. But that’s about basic changes in chip architecture and is understandable. I was more worried about any hints of leaving Obj-C behind, and I’m glad to hear that the Obj-C interface will continue to be valid for the existing API. Jeff On Oct 2, 2019, at 3:37 PM, Rick Mann via Cocoa-dev wrote: You guys have had *YEARS* to get your code bases updated to more modern APIs and architectures. All this whining is bullshit. You've deferred and delayed those updates and despite constant warnings that 32-bit was being deprecated, you haven't updated. As a user of some apps, I'm pissed. As a developer, I know it was on me to keep up. This wasn't a surprise. -- Rick Mann rm...@latencyzero.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on Cocoa
You guys have had *YEARS* to get your code bases updated to more modern APIs and architectures. All this whining is bullshit. You've deferred and delayed those updates and despite constant warnings that 32-bit was being deprecated, you haven't updated. As a user of some apps, I'm pissed. As a developer, I know it was on me to keep up. This wasn't a surprise. -- Rick Mann rm...@latencyzero.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on Cocoa
On Wed, 02 Oct 2019 15:19:43 -0400, you wrote: >Dont worry, ObjC UI is not being deprecated. There are new APIs in >Catalina that are Swift-only, but that does not and will not prevent you >from continuing to write ObjC applications that simply dont use those >APIs. Apple may not (yet) be deprecating ObjC, but the fact that any new stuff is Swift only inherently puts any developers/companies using ObjC (either by choice, or by necessity if using a C++ codebase) at a competitive disadvantage against any apps/companies that can go with Swift. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on Cocoa
On Oct 2, 2019, at 1:15 PM, Sam Ryan via Cocoa-dev wrote: > > It has felt like the support is not there the > last few years, with much of the documentation "archived" and the new > documentation focused on Swift. While the text in the doc window shows me the Swift version I can always click on the Objective-C language selection to see the Objective-C version. Unless I’m looking at something newish which doesn’t exist in Objective-C, e.g. the Combine framework. I’ve assumed that the doc window shows me Swift because I’m coding in swift. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on Cocoa
It is good to know there is still solid support for Objective-C UI, thank you for the information John. It has felt like the support is not there the last few years, with much of the documentation "archived" and the new documentation focused on Swift. Presently, it is hard to justify native development on macOS because there is very little information and a lot of uncertainty about the future. Simply predicting how much upkeep will be required to keep an application running for 5 years is a tough question to answer. When justifying a redevelopment or a new project, the native macOS option is very low in the list of options because of this. From a user's perspective, dropping 32-bit is the reason that I will probably not update to Catalina any time soon. I rely on older pieces of software, and there's a few games I enjoy which will no longer work. Upgrading will simply get in the way of what I want to do. Never say never though, 10.16 might have some amazing feature I can't be without, like dark mode 2.0, and I'll be forced to upgrade! On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 08:19, John McCall via Cocoa-dev < cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote: > On 2 Oct 2019, at 15:03, Jeff Evans via Cocoa-dev wrote: > > Here’s another small developer’s perspective: > > Practica Musica has been around since 1987 in one form or another > > (originally in 68000 assembler!). We’ve sold a lot of Macs for > > Apple. The upcoming version 7 is still C++ with Objective-C where > > necessary for the UI. We refuse to use Swift, another > > platform-specific language: the project is very large and we can’t > > rewrite hundreds of files on a whim. Swift may be nice, but it’s > > not necessary. > > I haven’t been paying close attention and can’t tell if the > > concern in this discussion is over any hints that Apple might again > > force a major change on existing apps, but if there have been such > > hints let me add another voice to the chorus: Apple really needs to > > keep its installed base. > > The new Windows version of Practica Musica is 100% plain old C++, > > using Microsoft’s new C++/winrt, so mostly only the UI classes > > differ from the Mac version. That is a clean, easy, fast system and I > > can trust them not to abandon it any time soon. Using their new system > > was entirely voluntary; the old ways are still viable but the new one > > is just better. > > I hope Apple can borrow that attitude from MS. I worry about > Apple > > pulling the rug out from under our Mac projects somewhere down the > > line. If they do we’ll have to abandon the platform, with great > > regrets. Switching to Intel chips was unavoidable; we understood that; > > but if, for example, they deprecate the existing Obj-C UI they’ll > > leave a lot of installed base behind. > > Don’t worry, ObjC UI is not being deprecated. There are new APIs in > Catalina that are Swift-only, but that does not and will not prevent you > from continuing to write ObjC applications that simply don’t use those > APIs. Apple is well aware that ObjC is a core language for most of our > developer community, and that even developers who are primarily writing > new code in Swift are usually integrating that into substantial bodies > of existing ObjC code. > > Catalina does drop support for 32-bit applications. Since Carbon has > never been supported on 64-bit macOS, this means that Carbon is no > longer supported, after 7 years of formal deprecation and a few more > years of “writing on the wall”. That is what some people are upset > about. > > John. > > > > > Jeff Evans > > > > > > > > On Oct 2, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev > > wrote: > > > > > >> On Oct 2, 2019, at 11:14 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev > >> wrote: > >> > >> Sadly, we just decided to abandon the Cocoa update for our app. > > > > Great historical overview from a small developers perspective. Perhaps > > you should send this email to Tim Cook. It might some attention. Just > > a thought. > > > > --Richard Charles > > > > ___ > > > > Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) > > > > Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. > > Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com > > > > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/jevans%40ars-nova.com > > > > This email sent to jev...@ars-nova.com > > > > > > ___ > > > > Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) > > > > Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. > > Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com > > > > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/rjmccall%40apple.com > > > > This email sent to rjmcc...@apple.com > ___ > > Cocoa-dev mailing list
Re: Thoughts on Cocoa
On 2 Oct 2019, at 15:03, Jeff Evans via Cocoa-dev wrote: Here’s another small developer’s perspective: Practica Musica has been around since 1987 in one form or another (originally in 68000 assembler!). We’ve sold a lot of Macs for Apple. The upcoming version 7 is still C++ with Objective-C where necessary for the UI. We refuse to use Swift, another platform-specific language: the project is very large and we can’t rewrite hundreds of files on a whim. Swift may be nice, but it’s not necessary. I haven’t been paying close attention and can’t tell if the concern in this discussion is over any hints that Apple might again force a major change on existing apps, but if there have been such hints let me add another voice to the chorus: Apple really needs to keep its installed base. The new Windows version of Practica Musica is 100% plain old C++, using Microsoft’s new C++/winrt, so mostly only the UI classes differ from the Mac version. That is a clean, easy, fast system and I can trust them not to abandon it any time soon. Using their new system was entirely voluntary; the old ways are still viable but the new one is just better. I hope Apple can borrow that attitude from MS. I worry about Apple pulling the rug out from under our Mac projects somewhere down the line. If they do we’ll have to abandon the platform, with great regrets. Switching to Intel chips was unavoidable; we understood that; but if, for example, they deprecate the existing Obj-C UI they’ll leave a lot of installed base behind. Don’t worry, ObjC UI is not being deprecated. There are new APIs in Catalina that are Swift-only, but that does not and will not prevent you from continuing to write ObjC applications that simply don’t use those APIs. Apple is well aware that ObjC is a core language for most of our developer community, and that even developers who are primarily writing new code in Swift are usually integrating that into substantial bodies of existing ObjC code. Catalina does drop support for 32-bit applications. Since Carbon has never been supported on 64-bit macOS, this means that Carbon is no longer supported, after 7 years of formal deprecation and a few more years of “writing on the wall”. That is what some people are upset about. John. Jeff Evans On Oct 2, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev wrote: On Oct 2, 2019, at 11:14 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev wrote: Sadly, we just decided to abandon the Cocoa update for our app. Great historical overview from a small developers perspective. Perhaps you should send this email to Tim Cook. It might some attention. Just a thought. --Richard Charles ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/jevans%40ars-nova.com This email sent to jev...@ars-nova.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/rjmccall%40apple.com This email sent to rjmcc...@apple.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on Cocoa
Here’s another small developer’s perspective: Practica Musica has been around since 1987 in one form or another (originally in 68000 assembler!). We’ve sold a lot of Macs for Apple. The upcoming version 7 is still C++ with Objective-C where necessary for the UI. We refuse to use Swift, another platform-specific language: the project is very large and we can’t rewrite hundreds of files on a whim. Swift may be nice, but it’s not necessary. I haven’t been paying close attention and can’t tell if the concern in this discussion is over any hints that Apple might again force a major change on existing apps, but if there have been such hints let me add another voice to the chorus: Apple really needs to keep its installed base. The new Windows version of Practica Musica is 100% plain old C++, using Microsoft’s new C++/winrt, so mostly only the UI classes differ from the Mac version. That is a clean, easy, fast system and I can trust them not to abandon it any time soon. Using their new system was entirely voluntary; the old ways are still viable but the new one is just better. I hope Apple can borrow that attitude from MS. I worry about Apple pulling the rug out from under our Mac projects somewhere down the line. If they do we’ll have to abandon the platform, with great regrets. Switching to Intel chips was unavoidable; we understood that; but if, for example, they deprecate the existing Obj-C UI they’ll leave a lot of installed base behind. Jeff Evans On Oct 2, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev wrote: > On Oct 2, 2019, at 11:14 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > Sadly, we just decided to abandon the Cocoa update for our app. Great historical overview from a small developers perspective. Perhaps you should send this email to Tim Cook. It might some attention. Just a thought. --Richard Charles ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/jevans%40ars-nova.com This email sent to jev...@ars-nova.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on Cocoa
> On Oct 2, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > >> On Oct 2, 2019, at 11:14 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev >> wrote: >> >> Sadly, we just decided to abandon the Cocoa update for our app. > > Great historical overview from a small developers perspective. Perhaps you > should send this email to Tim Cook. It might some attention. Just a thought. > Not likely... The Apple people I know say that Tim Cook is John Sculley II. Why do you think Jony Ive left? -Carl ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on Cocoa
I much prefer the Microsoft approach here. I guess the lesson to be learned is to depend as less as possible on Apple or either be forced to go through all the frequent SDK and language changes. I'm planning on working on a desktop project and looking for solution to use Cocoa/Swift as less as possible. For the UI I can use a web view which works for my use case. I can also use cross platform modules with languages like C++, C, or Nim. Another option would be using QT. If developing a new product I would also seriously consider if it can work on the browser as a web app. Development is much easier in my experience than mobile/desktop apps. On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 12:15 PM Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev < cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote: > Sadly, we just decided to abandon the Cocoa update for our app. It's not > easy to walk away from 3 years of work, but better 3 years lost than 5. > Time will be better spent on our Windows version. > > TurtleSoft started Mac-only with Excel templates in 1987. The first > prototype of our current stand-alone accounting app was in the early 90s. > Since then, programming for Mac has gone through four primary programming > languages (Pascal, C++, Objective C, Swift). Three, soon to be four chip > architectures (680x0, PPC, Intel, ARM). Four frameworks (MacApp or Think > Class Library, PowerPlant, Carbon, Cocoa). > > Microsoft and Adobe are big enough that they've survived the many pivots. > They can just throw 100 programmers at it. Intuit has barely kept up. For > anyone smaller, it's hard to justify the constant need to rewrite code just > to stay in the same place. Return on investment is just not there. Seems > like each new update is more difficult. > > Many good apps for Mac have died in one pivot or another. We managed to > lurch through most of the changes, but not this one. Thinking ahead to the > consequences of Marzipan was the last straw. > > Meanwhile, our Windows version hasn't needed any work since 2000. It > probably will take less than a year to get it updated to 64-bit and a > better interface. > > Casey McDermott > TurtleSoft.com > ___ > > Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) > > Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. > Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com > > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/pierbover11%40gmail.com > > This email sent to pierbove...@gmail.com > ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on Cocoa
agreed. i'm a small one person company with about ten of thousand customers, half mac half windows. wrote for mac first, carbon C++ ported to windows by porting CoreFoundation, then simulating Carbon APIs for everything else it's taken me YEARS to try to switch to Cocoa, and i'm still not done. when Catalina comes out, i will be UNABLE to sell on new macs, and unable to run on customers who choose to upgrade, all because Apple abandoned Carbon in 32bits (if i remember correctly, apple HAD a 64bit port for carbon but chose not to release it) my app also depended on QuickTime, which is now dead, forcing an entire rewrite of my media player engine. i keep having to rewrite things because apple makes promises, which i trust then come to depend on, then Apple breaks those promises, forcing years worth of work for me JUST to tread water. my current windows app STILL WORKS ON VISTA, i don't have to do ANYTHING to "stay up to date" with Windows, cuz they support backward compatibility, and don't force changes on developers. MS used to be the bad guy, and Apple the good guy. how times have changed. > On Oct 2, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > >> On Oct 2, 2019, at 11:14 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev >> wrote: >> >> Sadly, we just decided to abandon the Cocoa update for our app. > > Great historical overview from a small developers perspective. Perhaps you > should send this email to Tim Cook. It might some attention. Just a thought. > > --Richard Charles ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on Cocoa
> On Oct 2, 2019, at 11:14 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > Sadly, we just decided to abandon the Cocoa update for our app. Great historical overview from a small developers perspective. Perhaps you should send this email to Tim Cook. It might some attention. Just a thought. --Richard Charles ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Thoughts on Cocoa
Sadly, we just decided to abandon the Cocoa update for our app. It's not easy to walk away from 3 years of work, but better 3 years lost than 5. Time will be better spent on our Windows version. TurtleSoft started Mac-only with Excel templates in 1987. The first prototype of our current stand-alone accounting app was in the early 90s. Since then, programming for Mac has gone through four primary programming languages (Pascal, C++, Objective C, Swift). Three, soon to be four chip architectures (680x0, PPC, Intel, ARM). Four frameworks (MacApp or Think Class Library, PowerPlant, Carbon, Cocoa). Microsoft and Adobe are big enough that they've survived the many pivots. They can just throw 100 programmers at it. Intuit has barely kept up. For anyone smaller, it's hard to justify the constant need to rewrite code just to stay in the same place. Return on investment is just not there. Seems like each new update is more difficult. Many good apps for Mac have died in one pivot or another. We managed to lurch through most of the changes, but not this one. Thinking ahead to the consequences of Marzipan was the last straw. Meanwhile, our Windows version hasn't needed any work since 2000. It probably will take less than a year to get it updated to 64-bit and a better interface. Casey McDermott TurtleSoft.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on ARC
On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 10:50:19 +1300, Sam Ryan via Cocoa-dev said: >That was a good read, thank you for passing that on. It highlights a good >point, that Apple is itself releasing applications with non-Mac UI (News, >Home, Stocks, Voice Memos are mentioned in that article). Another way to look at it: Apple is redefining what "Mac UI" is. For better or worse. Sean ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on ARC
—Jens > On Oct 1, 2019, at 2:50 PM, Sam Ryan wrote: > > In fact those applications are forced upon the user in a way that I've never > seen before, as if they are core system components. You mean pre-installed? There have always been plenty of bundled apps like Mail, Calendar, Chess, etc. The specifics have varied from release to release, of course. —Jens ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
